saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

[teecee1941]

Howdy everyone, this is my first visit and I am hoping that it may prove fruitful. My uncle, Private Anthony Corkhill of the 2nd Btn Durham Light Infantry is buried in an unmarked grave in St Venant, France, having been killed around the 27th May 1940. He was Batman to RSM A.Goddard who last saw him alive on that day. Following fierce overnight fighting, Pte Corkhill was lying, wounded in both legs near the canal as the Germans were rounding up the British who had incurred heavy losses. Although not seriously wounded and fully conscious, Anthony was unable to walk and was unarmed.

The Germans said there was a field ambulance operating nearby and promised to take him to hospital. After the war it transpired that there were no records of Anthony ever being taken to any hospital and no records of him being held in a P O W camp. It would appear that he had been killed by the SS who were patrolling the area at the time.

Amongst the 250 pages of the St Venant War Crimes record there is reference to a British soldier, wounded in both legs, being shot in the head by an SS soldier. The time and location of this shooting was around 12 noon on the 27th May at 'Farm Boulet, St Venant'. I understand that the HQ for the DLI was in a barn situated on an un-named farm. Finding out the whereabouts of Farm Boulet is vital to my enquiries and a major hurdle to overcome before I put all the pieces of the jigsaw together.

I am asking this forum because I believe the RWF had their HQ quite near to the DLI and it may just be possible that someone may have knowledge of the exact location of Farm Boulet. The Boulet family appear to have been well known in St Venant and identifying where they had their farm should not be a major issue. However, the opposite is proving to be the case and I am still no further forward despite having contacted a variety of information sites.

Needless to say, I would be extremely pleased to hear anything that might point me in the right direction. You are very welcome to contact me by email via the editor of this forum. Thank you. TC

[Baconwallah]

In similar circumstances I have always found it productive to write to the Mayor and ask him for help. Have you done that? There is even a form in the internet (http://www.saint-venant.fr/index.php?option=com_contact&view=contact&id=5&Itemid=91). I have some experience with French Mayors and generally find them helpful.

John

[Dennis Goldsworthy farmer]

Good luck in your quest ....but just a thought have you tried Google earth.... that way you can walk up the streets of St Venant........

[teecee1941]

Thanks Dennis, your google earth suggestion was indeed a good idea but I'm sure the farm is no longer there. It's probably a takeaway or a bingo hall now!

Thanks again, TC

[teecee1941]

Baconwallah, thanks John, I've had someone on my behalf email the Deputy Mayor almost two weeks ago. Up to now, no reply, but you never know. I did, about three months ago, email the St Venant Tourist Office but no reply from them. I will try that internet form that you speak of.

Many thanks to you and Dennis for posting quick replies.

[ap1]

This is an entry from 1RWF Records for the 27th May(although the diarist notes it could have been the 26th). It may not assist, but it does give 2DLI's task:

"On the following day, A and C Coys started to move down the road from ST VENANT towards the AIRE Canal. A farmhouse just N of the canal was occupied by the enemy. While A Coy took up a covering position, "C" attempted to clear the farmhouse. At this point enemy opened fire from along the canal bank. Both companies suffered casualties 2Lt S Rillington of C Coy was wounded. Capt Parker-Jervis now decided to withdraw C Coy. The first party under 2Lt Bothy-Jones withdrew in the direction of HAVERSKERQUE as MT guard

HQ Coy meantime, who were still at ST VENANT(cemetery) tried to withdraw under Capt Clough Taylor towards HAVERSKERQUE.
In the course of the withdrawal the coy was suffered heavy casualties from mortar fire and Capt Clough Taylor was killed.

BN HQ, what remained of D Coy, the rest of A and C Coys under Capt ROF Pritchard, were still in the ST VENANT area.

2DLI had meantime been holding the rd ST VENANT-COLOUNNE. A and C Coys were ordered to take up positions on DLI left flank."

[Bob Lake]

I have an e mail addresss for Dominique Faivre who is the Chairman of the St Vennant Historical Research Society. He is very knowledgeable about the St Vennant Battle and will certainly be able to help you with finding the location of the Farm Boulet and the BOulet Family. Try dominique-faivre@wanadoo.fr

Dominique can read English well but does have difficulty writing in English but I know he will do all he can to help. If you need any translation let me know. I will forward him a copy of your initial thread for information.

Robert

[teecee1941]

Bob, many thanks for taking the time to reply. Last year I was in touch with Dominique Faivre but I was enquiring about my uncle's disappearance in the broadest sense not just the mystery of Farm Boulet When he replied to me he indicated that he would be extremely busy this year with a major project. I intend to get back in touch with him at a later date, possibly soon after I find the location of the farm. Thanks again, I really appreciate your interest and your invitation to help with any translation. Regards, Tony

[teecee1941]

ap1, many thanks for a swift and comprehensive reply. I expect to reply more fully after I have looked at the map references a few times. Thanks again, Tony.

[ap1]

Further to that on the 28th(Possibly the 27th):


<tbody>
0600 - Bn HQ Suffered a direct hit from arty fire. No further contact was made with Bn HQ. The following officers were reported missing as a result of this action. - Commanding Officer(Lt-Col Harrison) 2i/c (Maj D I Owens), Adjutant(Capt Hood), IO(Capt Willes), MO, Padre and RSM(Mr Sheriff).
The following officers are known to have been taken prisoner- 2i/c, Padre, IO, RSM


0700- DLI decided to withdraw. Enemy tanks overran the position as soon as it had been vacated.

Bridge at ST VENANT, which had been mined, was blown. Troops of A and D Coys had to swim the canal. Tanks firing along the canal bank inflicted about 30% casualties on these troops as they made for the near bank. Those who got across made their way to HAVERSKERQUE and contacted the R.W Kents, who were to relieve the BN. Bde Comdr now decided to make for LA MOTTE, beyond FORET DE NIEPPE.
Just south of FORET and to the E of the road, automatic fire from enemy tanks inflicted a further 20% casualties. At this stage a Coy of the Manchester Regt who were in support had only one MG left in action.

From LA MOTTE, Bde group moved to VERTE RUE, where it lay up for the night.


</tbody>

[ivor43]

would this be of use you will need to scroll to he 4th entry
http://www.rwfmuseum.org.uk/nb.html

[teecee1941]

would this be of use you will need to scroll to he 4th entry
http://www.rwfmuseum.org.uk/nb.html

vori101,

Thank you so much for a most informative document. I like to read and re-read everything so that it sinks in better. I am very pleased with the response I have had from members of this forum. Reading that report has brought my uncle's war involvement into a much more concentrated area. I am now thoroughly convinced that it largely took place on a triangle from St Floris----St Venant---Canal.

I expect to contact you again when I have news of the Farm Boulet location. Thanks again, Tony.

[ivor43]

digging around i found this link.it refers to a group called The French Military History and Archeology Research Association maybe they might be able to assist.
.http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/local/all-news/war-memorial-tribute-to-fallen-hero-1-1003057

good luck

vori.

i'll keep looking

[teecee1941]

vori, thanks again. I'll give it a go.

Tony

[Baconwallah]

You could also try a French WWII Forum

at http://www.39-45.org/index.php
or another one at http://deuxiemeguerremondia.forumactif.com/
or yet another one at http://www.passion-histoire.net/n/www/viewforum.php?f=49

John

[ivor43]

hi again

too hot to sleep here in Malta so done some more diggin and found this. dont know if you already been here

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=17068575

vori

[teecee1941]

vori, thanks once again for taking the time to help with my search. I'll give this one a go too. The more irons in the fire the better. Tony

[teecee1941]

John, I've registered with two of these but after quite some time, I am unable to find a space to submit a new thread. I'll go on trying all night, there must be a way to do it. The third one keeps rejecting my attempts to log in, saying that my account has been de-activated. I'll try that one again too. Thanks, Tony

[teecee1941]

John, I have managed to get a thread on the passion-histoire site after a monumental struggle. After half an hour, suddenly a space appeared into which I uploaded my post. The 39-45 site makes Mastermind look like a game of I-Spy. I've spent a good half an hour on it but did not find anywhere to post a query. Even the 'technical help' has not got any means of contacting the helper. Nevertheless, I'll have another try later. Thanks, Tony

[ivor43]

hi all.
just found this.

http://www.webmatters.net/txtpat/index.php?id=288

may be of interest.

there is a reason for my interest in this. My father was BEF, at the age of 21 he was R.C.S. apparently working from a M/C sidecar. he was attached to the 59th medium R.A. (west Lancs )rgt. so i hope that i might come across some ref to his unit. well you never know.

vori

[Baconwallah]

Tony, I noticed that one Alain referred you to the "letters to the Mayor" form on the St Venant site mentioned in my earlier post. Not much help, but it's early days yet. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you.

A friend of mine, with whom I worked in General Practice in Scotland in the early seventies, is also from Newcastle. One of his uncles served with 1/7 DLI and was killed in the Ypres gas attack in 1915, within a week from landing. Hence my interest.

John

[ivor43]

hi
digging again ( i really enjoy this, keeps the old brain active. ) i found this re RWF graves in Calonne.and several unknowns.

.http://www.inmemories.com/Cemeteries/calonnesurlalys.htm

you probably know about them already.

ivor

[ivor43]

re above.
Historical InformationDuring the withdrawal of the British Expeditionary Force to Dunkirk in May 1940, there was heavy fighting in the area around Calonne-sur-la-Lys, and most of the inhabitants left the area. The school was used by the Germans as an aid post, and British soldiers who died at Calonne, either in battle or of wounds while prisoners, were buried by the Germans in the field behind the school. In 1942 the local people moved these graves into the communal cemetery, but in the meantime the rough grave markers had in many instances become illegible. The identity discs and personal possessions had mostly been removed before burial, so that in 1942 few of the dead could be identified.

The communal cemetery now contains 23 Commonwealth burials of the Second World War, 14 of which are unidentified. There are also two burials from the First World War.
just thought it might be of interest.

ivor

[ivor43]

hi teecee.
is it possible that he name could be BAUDET. i have been looking around Calonne Sur La Lys and found a road called RUE DE MOTTE BAUDET my French is not very good but it appears that a MOTTE is a small wood, belonging to Baudet.

https://maps.google.com/?ll=50.633141,2.589743&spn=0.001398,0.003449&t=h&z=18

it is the small rd leading towards the canal. but directly opposite is a farm. i will see if i can find the name of it. it is on the eastern edge of the village of Saint Flores not far calonne where the Germans had their aid post. we know that "DLI was guarding the Colonne Rd then they might have been here. posibilities that he may be one of the unknowns in Colonne Cemetary.??

will keep looking for the name of the farm.

ivor

[Baconwallah]

I'd noticed that too, Ivor. But it may be on the wrong side of the canal.

John


2785

[ap1]

Has anyone had a look in "Red Dragon" just in case there are any other clues?

[ivor43]

john.

i wondered about that for a time. but the doc i linked from the Museum states that the DLI took over St Flores on 24th.i read somewhere else that DLI was tasked with holding the Calonne RD and that 2 RWF units would be on their Left flank.(could have been the War Diary's) which i presume were the ones ambushed near Robecq. so i think it a possibility. i have been slightly confused here as i was thinking of Left as in facing the Enemy not as in Line of March.but i figured it.

ivor

[Baconwallah]

Ivor, you may well be right. But what worries me is the spelling 'Baudet', not 'Boudet', which is even further away from 'Boulet' and may indicate a wild goose chase - unless Tony's original source had its spelling mixed up, of course.

John

[ivor43]

john.
it troubled me for a bit , but sitting back an thinking brought back some info i was given. some years ago we lived in Huntingdon.cams and for 18 months i was a volunteer assistant at the Mormon Family History Center, Northampton. (only once a month). one of the things which was stressed, in dealing with old records if you don't find a name as you believe it is spelled look for all possible alternatives. From my own experience on 2 occasions i have found my wife's family name of WOODCRAFT changed to WOODCROFT. one of these was on a Death Cert from 1930's. another point that was raised was that some of the people making the old records were barely literate themselves and the name may have been recorded phonetically.
i am not suggesting that the person or persons who wrote the diary were not literate but i have absolutely no doubt that they were under extreme pressure at the time so errors are to be expected also the names are in a foreign language. so i think that there is enough similarities for a mistake to occur.also i suspect they were written in good old fashioned PENCIL which adds another element of difficulty to the problem.


ivor

[ivor43]

hi again
thi is a link to a interractive tourist map and i have just been looking at the location in question

http://www.france-voyage.com/towns/calonne-sur-la-lys-23949.htm.

you will have to enlarge the map follow the D186 till you find the road. then drag the little man symbol to the junction then explore.

ivor

[Baconwallah]

I know what you mean, Ivor. Compiling the list of all Other Ranks of 1 RWF in '14-'18 and trying to write their potted biographies from the remaining service records, medal rolls and so on I have come across all possible variations. One of the men went under three different names, and that was just in the official papers (I wonder if he also received three pensions - probably not).

Well. it's early days yet. Who knows what Monsieur le Maire of St Venant is going to reply. Might surprise us all.

John

[ivor43]

john.

i am starting to think that Monsuieur le Maire of Calonne Sur le Lys who will have the key. but we shall have to wait and see.

ivor

[teecee1941]

Ivor, I just spent half an hour writing a reply and suddenly it's been deleted for some reason so forgive me if you get a duplicate or two similar replies.
Firstly I'd like to say a big thank you to members of this forum who have gone to so much trouble to help me with my quest.

Regarding your last reply, ordnarily I'd go along with you 100% and I've always believed that there are many derivations of certain surnames simply because the registrars were not very good at spelling when the first censuses were compiled. My own name, Corkhill, is spelled, Corkill, Corkin as well as Corkhill. A few weeks ago, I found, by chance, a photograph of a headstone in St Venant churchyard with the name V. Boulet. I have since found that Boulet is not an uncommon name in that town and I believe that there are two or three Boulets still living there. This does suggest that 'Farm Boulet' may be correct even though there is still room for doubt.

Your post of 13.24 today is very interesting. For the moment I can't find my original thread and so I may repeat myself here;- My interest in the location of the farm is as follows;- My uncle was last seen alive by RSM Goddard to whom he was Batman, on the 27th May 1940. He was wounded in both legs and the Germans had said that he would be taken to hospital by an field ambulance that was in the area. He was never seen again and Red Cross enquiries confirmed that he had never been taken to hospital or a POW camp. At about 12 noon on the same day, a British soldier, wounded in both legs, was approached by an SS soldier near a barn on Farm Boulet and shot in the head. There were two witnesses to this shooting. One was M. Victor Boulet aged 64 years and the other was a girl of about 20 years. This British soldier was left where he fell, as were others. They were buried a few days later in the area where they had been killed and the bodies were exhumed in 1942 and reburied.

The British soldier could well have been my uncle and so I am keen to find out the location of the farm because if it turns out that the farm was not in the vicinity of where the DLI were occupied in their battle, and was, say ten miles away, then that soldier was not my uncle and I can conclude that part of my search.

The information about the shot British lad, I got from the St Venant War Crimes record.

Thanks again,

Tony

[teecee1941]

Ivor,

Thanks again. You could be on to something here. The map shows that there is a canal quite near the road. RSM Goddard stated that Anthony was lying wounded near the canal when he was last seen. At the time, RSM Goddard was being marched away, with others, to a POW camp. I have never known exactly where they were when they were overpowered and taken prisoner.

Furthermore, the St Venant War Crimes record states that the British soldier, shot near Farm Boulet, was, after a few days, buried on the Robecq Rd. There is a road from Calonne to Robecq. Perhaps that was the road where he was buried, not the one from St Venant.

[teecee1941]

John,

Sorry for ignoring you its just that I seem to have spent the last two hours replying to Ivor. Thanks for that email address, I am now sending off a request to him. Thanks again, Tony.

[ivor43]

hi.
sadly i think my street name may be a red herring as you said john because if my very sketchy understanding of the following s correct it goes back many,many years.
En revanche, la rue de la Motte-Baudet a eu la chance de conserver sa dénomination traditionnelle, qui nous rappelle l'existence d'une motte féodale à proximité de cet endroit. Il faut cependant signaler au passage que "Baudet" n'a rien à voir ici avec les ânes : il s'agit du nom du propriétaire primitif de la motte (Baudet est un diminutif de Baude, nom de baptême d'origine germanique) et son origine pourrait remonter au Moyen Age.

however i still think it a possible position to defend the approaches to St floris.

ivor

oh on some links it is Calonne sur le Lys and St Venant War Crimes

[Baconwallah]

Your interpretation is correct, Ivor. The Motte Baudet refers to a mediaeval stronghold on a mound, and 'Baude' is thought to be the name of the original owner (of Germanic stock). The word 'motte' is still used in English too, in the technical expression 'motte-and-bailey castle'.

John

[Baconwallah]

Another possible approach, Tony.

The CWGC keep excellent records and will be able to give information on the original burial sites of men later removed to concentration cemeteries. It is possible that they have a record of one or more burials along the Calonne-Robecq and St Venant-Robecq roads. That is how I once identified a man.

No harm in asking.

John

[teecee1941]

John, thanks once again. A while ago I did get in touch with the CWGC and, whilst I hold them in the highest regard, they could not tell me more than what I already know. It is believed that Anthony may not have been wearing any identifying tags at the time of his death. It seems that he left these behind, inadvertently, when he left England for the final time. Although I cannot verify this information, it does seem very likely as he has not been identified to this day.

I will, however be contacting the CWGC at a later date when I have more information regarding Farm Boulet.

Thanks,

Tony

[Baconwallah]

Make sure you ask them about unidentified burials, Tony. They should be able to produce a little map with all the burials in the area, named or unnamed.

John

[teecee1941]

Make sure you ask them about unidentified burials, Tony. They should be able to produce a little map with all the burials in the area, named or unnamed.

John

[teecee1941]

Thanks once again, John, I'll email them tomorrow.

I omitted to tell you before that I emailed that address and he said he'll get back to me later in the week, so thanks also for that.

[Baconwallah]

Well, we may be getting somewhere, Tony. Cautious optimism.

John

[Bob Bacon]

Posted on behalf of Brian Donovan:

I have scanned 3 photos from the Red Dragon for the man who lost an Uncle around Saint Venant and he served in the Durhams. I thought they may be of use to him. I am awfully busy at present and wondered if you can post them for me please.


Regards as ever Brian Donovan

278727882789

[teecee1941]

Hello Brian,

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I've had a look at the maps and with your consent, I'll pass them over to my DLI Historian to see what he can glean from them. Thanks again, Tony

[teecee1941]

John, just a quick one to tell you that I emailed the CWGC about an hour ago. They say it will take a week or so for them to reply.

[ivor43]

hi all.
had a quetish day trying to get a line on a temporary bridge over the Lys, which was'nt blown and allowed the Germans over to the north bank. so i have been floating around the area courtesy of google earth, looking for possible clues.one place in particular looks very promising.the north end of ''Rue de Motte Baudet ''. if you Google Earth the field directly across the river you will see some very distinct straight tracks.these are between 15' and 20' wide(using Google ruler) and from ground level appear quite deep.
where the DLI guarding this as well as the road at this point the main road is only 220 yds from the river.the account i read stated that the position came under fire from both sides of the river.
before i go any further i would like an opinion from someone out there who knows a bit more about tanks than i do.

ivor.

oh, john, i think i have found the Motte as in Rue de Motte Baudet. a small village about 3.5 miles N called La Motte-au-Bois.

[Baconwallah]

Ivor, if you look at the map I posted you'll see the name 'Motte Baudet' north of the canal. Your road was probably named after it because it led there before they dug the canal.

I was a tankie once, so I'll have a shufti at your bridge site tomorrow.

John

[ivor43]

hi.
seems a lot further west than our road.flying back to uk tomorrow am. so will have another look tomorrow evening.

ivor

[Baconwallah]

If the Rue de Motte Baudet led from Calonne to the nearest ford (and you have to cross the Lys to get to Motte Baudet) the position of the road may be entirely logical. I have no way of finding out, I'm afraid.

Re your tank tracks, Ivor: tread width of the German Pz III was about 15", if I remember correctly, so that's a good argument. But would the tracks still be visible after 72 years? The fields look cultivated, the Lys further west is no more than a ditch, if that, so a tractor might be more likely. Or even the pre-canal continuation of the Rue de Motte Baudet. Local inspection would solve this...

John

[jungle1810]

Hello all,
The panzer mark 3 Medium tank had the following details. Country of origin Germany crew 5 weight 22,300 kg (49,060 Lbs) dimensions length 6.41 metres (21 feet) width 2.95 metres (9ft 8ins) height 2.50 metres (8ft2 ins) range 175 Km (110 miles) Armour 30mm (1.8 ins) Aus M version one 75 mm ,L/24 gun, 7.92 machine gun. power plant one Maybach H L 120 TRM 12 cylinder petrol engine developing 300 horse power ( 224 kW)performance maximum road speed 40 km (25 mph) fording 0.8 M (2ft 8 ins) vertical obstacle 2.59 metres (8ft 6 ins)
Regards RBD aka jungle1810

[ivor43]

hi guys.
first, thanks brian for that info, very helpful.
now, i grew up on a hill farm in NE Wales. we had several fields around the farm which were never cultivated. they were only ever used as grazing for the cattle. also at certain times of the year wet/soggy areas would appear, if you drove a tractor through them it would leave deep ruts.
looking at the land in question i suspect that it may be grazing pasture and i also suspect that it may be wet in places. i have considered that they could have been grubbed out hedges. but i do'nt think the profile fits seems too wide. so i will stick with my tracks. if you drive 1 22 ton tank over soft ground it would leave a fairly deep set of tracks. but if you drive several dozen over the sameish piece of wet ground then some very deep and distinct marks will be left.if the land then is not cultivated i can see no reason why the marks would disappear. this piece of ground seems to have some odd features.
the light green patches could be standing water covered with algae. the green patches along side the ploughed field. as it goes northish it turns black the same color as the Lys. the sort of snake like marks near the top of the field could also be a track
of course this is pure speculation but if any of you even vaguely agree i will take it further.

ivor

[Baconwallah]

Thanks for the additional info, Ivor. Being an old city rat myself, I'll gladly take your word for it. Although even in wet ground I would expect the tracks to have disappeared after 72 years. I am also rather surprised at the fact that judging by the ruts all the crossing tanks seem to have followed exactly the same course. Once past the contested crossing of the canal barrier I would have expected them to fan out. It's what I would have told my squadron to do.

As battlefield archaeology this is fascinating, but will it bring us any closer to the identification of the Ferme Boulet, I wonder?

John

[ivor43]

john.

let me take your last point first.
i think it is crucial to locate the exact location of 2DLI. at the time. if they were positioned as i have suggested and the missing bridge was also here then farm boulet could well also be here. i will see if i can find the ref about the position coming under fire from both sides of the river.
if you look closely you will see some tracks amongst the trees to the left of the main northern track. so it is possible that some units went into the trees.the track to the right may be the units withdrawing into the woods later.
as a fan of 'Time Team' on a number of occasions very old features have been found by areal survey which are not clear from the ground.
i am wondering if it might be profitable to contact the local military history group to see what the local's think. but i will need teecee's ok on that

ivor

[Baconwallah]

Ivor, if we go on like this, we'll be able to write a detailed history of the defence of the Lys canal. Sounds good to me.

As for the local historians, my first question would be "Where was the Ferme Boulet?", leaving contested crossings for later. But Tony is re-establishing his contacts in the area, so perhaps we should give it some time.

John

[Dennis Goldsworthy farmer]

This is getting really interesting ....Im sure you will find where the farm was....

[Baconwallah]

Interesting it surely is, Dennis. One of my friends who lives in the area has now joined the search, and there's nothing like a man on the ground, with local knowledge and speaking the language.

I'm reasonably confident that we'll get to the bottom of this.

John

[ivor43]

good morning all.
at the moment i can not find the ref i was looking for, but i will. however the following link,
http://durhamlightinfantry.webs.com/france1940.htm
if you scroll down the entry for St Venant makes interesting reading. i suspect that they use St Venant for the whole area as we know from other accounts that they were detailed to hold St Flores.
from this account it will be seen that there was an intact bridge at this point,also that Bn HQ was also near a barn here.
it seems that some of 2DLI got over the bridge and i wonder if teecee's uncle was hit by machine gun fire while trying to get to the bridge.I assumed RSM Goddard would have been at HQ and this seems to have confirmed it.
now let me justify this thinking. first, this action occurred on 27th. according to RWF War Diary the ST Venant bridge was blown on 28th(poss 27th) therefore was not taken intact.
Second.the RWF Bn HQ's move to the Cemetery was it's 3rd move according to map 2 provided by jungle via bob. We must assume that 2DLI's Bn HQ was wiped out at the barn. to move to a position near RWF Bn HQ would seem to be a logical move.( er. well to me it would. )
finally. i feel that the sight of 2 German tanks smashing there way into a barn full of blazing hay bales for real.must have been one of the most terrifying moments imaginable.
on a personal level whatever the outcome of this thread it has given me a totally different outlook on what my father and all others of the B.E.F. went through.

Total Respect TO These Guys.

ivor

[Baconwallah]

A very interesting site, Ivor, thanks for discovering it. I wonder if they could provide more information on the barn and the bridge, as they are certainly well informed.

John

[ivor43]

hi john.i am glad it's of use but i am not sure of it's accuracy.it seems that we have all got some useful stuff out of this thread. but i think we have reached the limit of what we can do from the comfort of our armchairs.we will have to sit back and wait for your friend and others to come up with some answers. i dont think we can write a definitive account of this action but we my have cleared up some questions.
i suspect that farm boulet may have effectively ceased to exist at this time but we can hope that some locals may remember it's location.


ivor

[Baconwallah]

I agree, Ivor, there's probably not much more we can do. But my friend is hot on the trail of the Ferme Boulet. I understand that all family members are now dead. That means that the farm will be under new management and will have a different name now. I am reasonably confident that he will find it. And my contacts in the German war graves commission and the Bundeswehr Museum are trying to discover more about that pathologist and his report. So there's hope.

On the whole, I think we did rather well!

John

[ivor43]

hi again.
i found the ref i needed.it was,of all places in the RWF Museum Doc.Quote:-

''Apart from heavy shelling and the sight of numbers of German tanks and infantry moving across the front, 26 May was uneventful. The Durham Light Infantry took over Saint-Floris, allowing the Battalion to concentrate around Saint-Venant. Having sent the transport over the canal, Lieutenant Colonel Harrison sought permission to withdraw to the north bank, but this was refused, so the Battalion settled down to await the inevitable attack. This started at 8 a.m. on 27 May, and it was soon clear that no weapons were available that could stop the medium tanks of the 3rd Panzer Division. At 9 a.m. the Brigadier ordered the D.L.I. to fall back through the Royal Welch, but they were too closely engaged to extricate themselves. Colonel Harrison therefore ordered all his men who could get clear to double back over the canal bridge which was now under machine-gun fire from both sides. He followed them but was killed shortly after reaching the north bank. At this stage it was found that the engineers waiting to demolish the bridge were no longer there, so that the German tanks were able to cross on the heels of the survivors, killing some and taking others prisoner. ''

3rd Panzer Division:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/51528342/German-3rd-Panzer-Division-10-May-1940

i think that i must have misunderstood this point when i first read it.i now think it means that the bridge was now under fire,not as i thought from Germans on both sides of the Lys. but from both the Brits and the Germans.
This i find rather disturbing.


ivor.

[ap1]

Fascinating thread guys, well done. It will be interesting to see how it later develops. Lots and lots of work still to be done on WW2, barely touched in reality. I think the interest in it from RWF researchers will increase when the Regimental Records volume covering WW2 is finally published. I still get a chill, when I read the passage in The Red Dragon, which describes the 1st Bn dug in overlooking the River Dyle, as they spot the first German troops on the other side of the river bank, the start of the retreat to Dunkirk for 1RWF. Most of the Bn's first ever taste of action. Which eventually ended in 1945 in the jungles of Burma(for the small few who managed to escape Dunkirk).

[Baconwallah]

Disturbing, Ivor, but I wonder. According to the Official History the Germans were already entering Merville (NE of St Venant. Also, St Venant was the SW cormer of the British line, and the German line to the West could easily fire into the town from the North. Utter confusion, that's for sure.

John

[ivor43]

interesting john, a have not been looking at the west of St Venant. i know that some of the RWF were isolated in Robecq.that A and C cos failed to reach bridge 4, the most western of the 4 around Robecq. and that A and D cos were ambushed on the Robecq - Calonne Rd. ok there was still a corridor open to the NE to Haverskirque which appears to have been the direction of retreat. on 27th or 28th when the bridge was blown so they were not that close on that side. but once tanks had crossed the river on their captured bridge then they could have fired on the town from the north bank.
would you do me a favor. would you read the quote in my previous post an compare it with the entry in the war diary.Re Bn OC. i would be interested in your thoughts.

ivor

[Baconwallah]

Here is what I have, Ivor. Not the War Diary but a page from the Official History (Ellis L.F., The War in France and Flanders 1939-1940, HMSO 1953) and the relevant part of the accompanying map.

Re the CO, I think he made the best of a bad situation. Undergunned, undermanned, outgeneralled, what could the BEF do? Col Harrison had lost most of his battalion, could not even extricate the remnants of 2 DLI, and was in an extremely confused situation on the verge of going into the bag on the wrong side of a water barrier which was already being crossed by the enemy. In such a situation making a last stand is maybe good for the history books and the exhibit at the regimental museum, but for nothing else. Losing all one's trained troops will make winning the war, eventually, much harder. Anyway, if he was wrong he paid for it with his life.

John

27932792

[ivor43]

john.
thank you very much for the map and the info. if we could over lay this map on to a regular map i believe the breach would be more or less where i have been speculating. and the article states that ' Armoured Columns ' passed through the gap to Merville and lestrem. these two places are to the Right once you cross the bridge. these are going to create Serious tracks.
thanks john i suddenly feel a twinge of confidence that my speculation may be closer than we thought.

ivor

[Verrieres]

hi john.i am glad it's of use but i am not sure of it's accuracy.it seems that we have all got some useful stuff out of this thread. but i think we have reached the limit of what we can do from the comfort of our armchairs.we will have to sit back and wait for your friend and others to come up with some answers. i dont think we can write a definitive account of this action but we my have cleared up some questions.
i suspect that farm boulet may have effectively ceased to exist at this time but we can hope that some locals may remember it's location.


ivor

Hi ,
First post here just like to confirm as far as it can be the information on that site is indeed acurate.Its actually my site.I have been in touch with Tony for a few years now I have been able to provide him with contact to RSM Goddards son,contact re M Faivre through his work searching for Pte Tom Rodgers,The War crimes files regarding the shooting of PoWs at St Venant which led to the case of Soldier Six and the witness M Victor Boulet,The existance of the autopsy reports used by M Faivre and the Rodgers family which were compiled on 6th June 1942,Copy of the original buriel locations via `The Search for Tom` what I cannot give him is the exact location he seeks thats where you have excelled giving him some excellent advice and contacts.The nearest I have been to actually pin pointing the HQ is actually from the ARMAN website which stated `The 2DLI battalion headquarters is located in a farm located at the intersection of the street Amuzoires. and the canal`...the situation is confused by references to other Hqs not Battalion but Company Hq`s in the 2 DLI War Diary it states`The fate of the Rifle Companys will become clear after the war when those who survived and were captured can tell their story`.Just to add it appears the Germans were on both sides of the canal as the War Diary refers to 2 DLI being ordered out of their HQ onto the Canal Bank where German Light Machine guns were able to shoot them up from the rear.Keep up the Good Work and thanks for helping Tony out this was his Dads quest and now its his.All the Best

Jim

[Baconwallah]

Welcome to the Forum research section, Verrieres.

If I understand you correctly, this (see map and photo) should be the former Ferme Boulet. Location would be very likely indeed.

John

27952796

[ivor43]

hi.
First may i welcome you to the forum. in the course of this thread i have visited the D.L.I site a few times. i accept that the information is correct. it just differs from the R.W.F. in certain aspects, this is partly what i have been trying to reconcile. in one of my posts i said i had been floating over the area . this particular spot was one of 3 i identified as a possible crossing. however,using Google Earth i spent quite a bit of time searching the North bank of the Lys for possible signs of the movement of heavy equipment etc. the only place i could find it was the field directly opposite the Rue De Motte Baude.
oh dam.....
john do you recall my saying ''seems a lot further west than our road'' could it be that after the war somehow the road names got switched ? could it be that the rue Amuzoires was actual at the end of the village.
john do you know the translation of Amuzoires ?
the photo of the farm shows a fairly new building which would be expected. but maybe too new.
Verriers thank you for the info and i can assure you that we will do all we can to assist tony. hope to see you on here again.


ivor

[Baconwallah]

Ivor, the Rue des Amusoires is named after a large farm, Ferme les Amusoires, further south on the road to Robecq. It's in map square 17, just off my map, below square 11.

John

[Verrieres]

hi.
First may i welcome you to the forum. in the course of this thread i have visited the D.L.I site a few times. i accept that the information is correct. it just differs from the R.W.F. in certain aspects, this is partly what i have been trying to reconcile. in one of my posts i said i had been floating over the area . this particular spot was one of 3 i identified as a possible crossing. however,using Google Earth i spent quite a bit of time searching the North bank of the Lys for possible signs of the movement of heavy equipment etc. the only place i could find it was the field directly opposite the Rue De Motte Baude.
oh dam.....
john do you recall my saying ''seems a lot further west than our road'' could it be that after the war somehow the road names got switched ? could it be that the rue Amuzoires was actual at the end of the village.
john do you know the translation of Amuzoires ?
the photo of the farm shows a fairly new building which would be expected. but maybe too new.
Verriers thank you for the info and i can assure you that we will do all we can to assist tony. hope to see you on here again.


ivor


Hello Ivor,

I notice on a daily basis the difference in `official` accounts and the personal diaries and accounts others have supplied.I am not familiar with the diaries of the RWF but what I do know is the DLI diaries were lost and reconstituted later the DLI diaries for the period read more like a personal account rather than an account dictated by brigade and battalion orders and directions.
I have deliberately stayed out of this simply because I felt Tony needed the help of a `Fresh pair of Eyes`which this forum has provided.Like I mentioned I can not provide Tony with a definative answer and hope what I posted has not deflected any of you away from the sterling work you have all contributed todate
I will come back again as the War crimes file I posess has significant interest for those with a RWF interest but again for now I will retreat back to the shadows so I do not deflect Tonys quest for answers.

Best Wishes

Jim

[ivor43]

good morning all.
first an apology. the Rue De Les Amusiores runs from Robeq to a point on the Lys just east of the St Venant Cemetery. where R.W.F.Bn HQ was also situated. i should have checked this last night before putting fingers to keys. my only defense is that we are staying with family at the moment and it was quite late. or could it have been a senior moment.
O.K. verriers.i agree that 2DLI HQ was near the cemetery and the RWF HQ. but it is my contention that it was there because the previous HQ had been wiped out at the bridge further east. whatever the name of the road there is,to me anyway, a lot of evidence that leads me to believe that the German break through occurred at the bridge, which we know was taken intact,to the east of St Flores. even john's latest map shows the breach well to the east.of this i am fairly confident.
let us assume for the moment that i may be right about the marks in the field to the north. the track to the right leads to a small wood. the field to the right of this wood also has some odd marks. would it be possible for this to have been a holding/regrouping area for units crossing the river ?

ivor

[Verrieres]

good morning all.
first an apology. the Rue De Les Amusiores runs from Robeq to a point on the Lys just east of the St Venant Cemetery. where R.W.F.Bn HQ was also situated. i should have checked this last night before putting fingers to keys. my only defense is that we are staying with family at the moment and it was quite late. or could it have been a senior moment.
O.K. verriers.i agree that 2DLI HQ was near the cemetery and the RWF HQ. but it is my contention that it was there because the previous HQ had been wiped out at the bridge further east. whatever the name of the road there is,to me anyway, a lot of evidence that leads me to believe that the German break through occurred at the bridge, which we know was taken intact,to the east of St Flores. even john's latest map shows the breach well to the east.of this i am fairly confident.
let us assume for the moment that i may be right about the marks in the field to the north. the track to the right leads to a small wood. the field to the right of this wood also has some odd marks. would it be possible for this to have been a holding/regrouping area for units crossing the river ?

ivor

Good Morning Ivor,
Battalion Hq for 2 DLI was to the best of my knowledge set up in `a` farm which was shelled I believe by advancing German Armour forcing the DLI into a large Barn type building at the rear of the Farm Buildings near a canal..Apart from the fact it was very near to the RWF Hq in the cemetery thats all I can say for certain.
The DLI Companies were spread out over quite a considerable area and there is often confusion in relation to the Bridges I say bridges because there were two one over the Guarbecque Canal on the Rue Berthalotte which `D` Company 2 DLI were hoping to defend and the one over the Lys which the retreating DLI were stopped from crossing by German Machine Gunners on the other side.The confusion arises when each Company action report refers to their HQ without stating if this was Battalion HQ or more likely Company HQ the DLI had believe it or not ..one solitary map of the area.
Your theory may well have good founding I cannot comment as I am not very well versed in the actions of the RWF.The situation I believe in 1940 was termed `Fluid` many individual actions many HQ`s but very little documented regarding the final 2 DLI Hq which was finally overun on the 27th May1940 when Pte Anthony Corkhill was reluctantly left outside a Barn by his comrades and `dissappeared` from history.
Best Wishes

Jim

[ivor43]

jim

i do not know if you accessed this link. but it indicates that 2DLI were holding St Floris not St Venant.
would this be of use you will need to scroll to he 4th entry
http://www.rwfmuseum.org.uk/nb.html

i think 'Fluid ' is a fairly conservative term for the situation at the time.i could think of some this is a family site.My father was BEF a signaler (RCS) attached to the 59th(4th West Lancs )medium RA. and although he died when i was very young some of the stories i heard were hairy to say he least.
I guess documentation was not really a priority at this time so it is not surprising that there is so much confusion. maybe with this thread we may clear up a little bit.

regards

ivor

[Baconwallah]

Summing up:

DLI pushed back from St Floris to St Venant, uncovering a canal crossing near St Floris. New HQ 27th May in large barn close to RWF HQ in cemetery.

Here you have it all: farmhouse (the one on the previous photo), large barn, cemetery, canal. The large barn is also on the 1917 map detail I posted earlier.

John

2797

[Verrieres]

jim

i do not know if you accessed this link. but it indicates that 2DLI were holding St Floris not St Venant.
would this be of use you will need to scroll to he 4th entry
http://www.rwfmuseum.org.uk/nb.html

i think 'Fluid ' is a fairly conservative term for the situation at the time.i could think of some this is a family site.My father was BEF a signaler (RCS) attached to the 59th(4th West Lancs )medium RA. and although he died when i was very young some of the stories i heard were hairy to say he least.
I guess documentation was not really a priority at this time so it is not surprising that there is so much confusion. maybe with this thread we may clear up a little bit.

regards

ivor

Hello Ivor,

I am just heading out to work but if you or your fellow contributors think it would be of use I can post the 2DLI War Diaries for the 27th May 1940? If you think it will only confuse the situation I fully understand .Let me know and I`ll sort them this evening for you.

Baconwallah you may just have it there!

Best Wishes

Jim

[ivor43]

john.
while i agree that this is the farm where the 2DLI moved their HQ with the RWF HQ in the cemetery. i am not convinced that this is farm boulet. i think we will have to agree to differ on this one at the moment and await results.

ivor

[Baconwallah]

Feel free to disagree, Ivor.

In my humble opinion the Bn HQ was at the Ferme Boulet when it was overrun on the 27th, so this must have been the place. Still, we'll see what my friend in the area has to say about it.

Jolly good thread this!

John

[ivor43]

john.
i totally agree a jolly good thread. i think we have learned a lot about this particular phase of the battle.
we have narrowed down the location of tony's uncle's death and i have every confidence that the exact site will be established.
in summary.i believe that the action, which resulted in Pte Corkhill's death. took place early on the 27th May 1940 near a bridge over the Lys at the end of the Rue De Motte Baudet. at the eastern end of St Floris.i believe that the 2DLI Hq was here at farm Boulet. and as a result of this action the HQ was wiped out. we know that Col Harrison of the RWF ordered all troops that could, to retreat over the bridge and i believe that this is when Pte Corkhill received his wounds from machine gun fire.
Due to the engineers not being in place to blow this bridge it was captured intact,thus giving the Germans access to the north bank and giving them opportunity to attack St Venant.
i also believe that this allowed the Germans to move large amounts of heavy equipment across to the north bank which i think is quite boggy in places which accounts for the tracks in the field. from here they went east probably regrouping in the field by the woods before attacking Merville.
it appears that as the BEF had moved north into Belgium all maps of France had been withdrawn so the units had only a rough idea where they were.which i think accounts for some of the confusion between positions in St Venant and St Floris.
whatever the outcome this has been totally fascinating.and the fact that Tony should ,at last, find where his Uncle died a great result. i am very pleased that i have been able to play a small part in it.
Tomorrow AM we are heading back to our base in Tywyn,West Wales where we do not have WiFI internet so i am only going to have limited access by my phone or by visiting our local library so after tonight i will be quiet for a while. chow will be keeping me informed with what is going on.


ivor.

oh, if you remember my speculation re some standing water around the field with the tracks. by some odd coincidence the Franco - Belgian border follows the water. ideas anyone...

[Baconwallah]

No odd coincidence, Ivor. You're looking at the old bed of the Lys before it was canalised. The border follows the original bed of the Lys from way E of Armentières to way W of St Venant at least.

You gave a very good summary of events as we now understand them. Compliments.

And now:

If my man in the field can confirm that the farm on the photos was indeed once the Ferme Boulet, the next step will be to get hold of the pathologist's report. I have queries outstanding in Germany and have also alerted my French friend, who I hope will go and bother the Maire of St Venant about it. And if we can connect the bodies in the report to the unmarked graves in the cemetery, we'll be getting somewhere. Not there yet, but moderately hopeful.

John

[ivor43]

john
thank you. this would explain why the field appears to be boggy.
thank you very much for the compliments. from someone of your experience and standing on the forum i am very grateful.i enjoy this sort of thing and if i can be of assistance in the future then i hope it will be OK.
i think the autopsy report could make interesting reading i attended quite a few as a police officer. we had a good Pathologist who would explain what he was looking for. very interesting. i learned a lot from him.
jumping ahead, i was wondering if, with a lot of luck and a large dose divine providence we may achieve the ultimate result. that would be fantastic. it has been done before. let us hope.

ivor

[Baconwallah]

Flattery will get you nowhere, Ivor!

Seriously, though, the compliment was well earned and we should do this again. I hope that even from your base in Tywyn you will look in once or twice a day so we can have another go, if need be. Meanwhile, I shall continue my own feeble efforts on Tony's behalf.

John

[teecee1941]

Ivor, I have not been on much the last night or two, mainly because of the superior knowledge of you experts, I would be struggling to add anything. I thought it better to take a back seat whilst things are developing. I never get tired of saying thanks to everyone who has given me a tremendous lift in my search. So. it's thanks again.

Your description of how Anthony may have met his end going back over the bridge certainly has a bona-fide ring about it. This could certainly have put him in the last place that he was seen alive, the canal bank at the side of Farm Boulet. The timing of events, although approximate, all adds up. The War Crimes Investigation reports a British soldier being shot in the head at around 12 noon on the 27th which would have given him time to be there after the fighting had started early in the day.

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission has Anthony's death as being on the 29th but this is unlikely. His superior, RSM Goddard and all fit and able personnel were marched away to a POW camp on the 27th. There is very little likelihood of the Germans caring for Anthony from the 27th to the 29th, having to tend his wounds and feed him. No, I think that the minute RSM Goddard and any other officers marched away, the last ounce of fairness and compassion went too.

[ivor43]

tony.
thanks for your comments. but i am no expert.i am a retired civil servant (RAF) with an interest in the BEF. who spends most of the year in Malta. as i have lots of spare time the opportunity to help someone has been very welcome.i have thoroughly enjoyed what i have been doing and the fact that we have almost certainly identified where your Uncle died is brilliant.but it is also possible that,maybe, we have re-written or clarified this particular part of the battle.I too have learned a lot about what my father went through and for that i owe you a great deal of thanks for posting this thread.
as i said i have to pull back because where i live in Wales we do not have WiFi.i will keep in touch with the forum and will be kept informed of developments by chow.
i want to thank you for the opportunity of being part of your quest, whilst we have established much from our armchairs,we have to wait now for the results of your queries and john's man on the spot. if the autopsy report can be found then who knows where that may lead.we are nearly there. just a few more pieces and the picture will be complete.

ivor.

[teecee1941]

Ivor,

It's been great being part of it all but I hope you are going to be around for the conclusion of it all. Thanks again for your interest and hard work. Our paths will cross again there's no doubt about that!

[ivor43]

tony.
believe me i am awaiting the conclusion with a great deal of interest and have no intention of missing it. it has been a pleasure and i look forward to our paths crossing if i can be of help at any time, contact me.

good luck

ivor.

[ivor43]

morning john.tony.
will be heading off from Loughborough to Wales shortly but, before i go.this occurred to me sometime during night.it just might be the key i needed.
Tony you said your uncle's body was found in a grave on the Calonne - Robeq road this puzzled me at the time, but last night it finally made sense. to me it completes the picture.
OK. the Germans had secured an intact bridge east of St Floris they now are able to pour men,tanks and so on to the north bank. the Calonne - St Floris rd area is now going to become a very busy holding area. but one slight problem. there are a lot of dead bodies in the area. so what do they do with them.it would not really be possible to bury them where they are. they have to be taken from the area, to where. a mass grave on the Robeq rd. this grave contained not only tony's uncles body but bodies of other 2 DLI and RWF. there are a lot of unknowns in Calonne Cemetary.
John i can not take this forward but i think that this may be an opportunity to look at those posted missing (no known grave) at St Venant as it is possible that they may actually be buried at Calonne Sur la Lys. this would be way outside my experience and ability.so i will have to pass this on if you consider it a possibility.
i believe that the picture is now complete. i think we will find that Farm Boulet is or was near the Canal on the Rue De Mote Baudet.
of course i still may be wrong. we will have to wait and see.


ivor.

[Baconwallah]

Bore da Ivor,

My most recent (and local) source places Ferme Boulet to the west of St Venant, so we now have a choice of three!

No time today, but will be back tonight to see what can be done.

John

[Verrieres]

Hello Again,

Just to point out Tonys uncle was never found,he has no known grave,there is no known record of Pte Corkhill after 27th May 1940. The man buried near the Robecq Road is known as `Soldier Six` he was a wounded British Soldier murdered by an SS man on the 27th May 1940 witnesses included Victor Boulet.There was a single `innconnu`unknown found in a grave in the pasture opposite the Boulet Family home.Remember these are Three seperate incidents /events which if they `could` be linked will give Tony a way forward. Sorry but it really is too early to assume anything yet I`m speaking from past experience.Its looking promising.
Something Tony mentioned about the CWGC regarding the date of Pte Corkhills date of death given as the 29th May 1940 on their register,what this forum will be unaware of is the Germans would not let the body be buried for two days..on the 29th May 1940. Something else I should make this Forum aware of is that there are such things as `Missing Men Files` The DLI missingmen file lists Pte Corkhill as `Dead` not missing not unknown but emphatically as `Dead`.There was no effort made by the British Government to find what happened to Tony which suggests they were already aware,the Red Cross carried out an enquiry but hold no files/results.What the `Missing Men File` does have is a mispelling of Pte Corkhills name to `Corthill` next to his name is the letter `Q` and a file number.This `Q`appears on the document only three times,we do not know for sure what the `Q` stands for but we are aware that any report of war crimes or ill treatment made by repatriated PoWs were entered on a `Q`Form. If this `Q` does indeed stand for this type of form it is either `Lost` or still `classified`.The lack of effort by the Government to find the ultimate fate of Pte Corkhill suggests to me that they were already satisfied that he was `Dead`and aware of exactly how he was killed.Would the Government not tell the families what had really happened? The answer is ,for whatever reasoning,No! They made no attempt to inform the families (speaking again from a DLI angle) of Ptes Barlow and Hayton (6th DLI) murdered by the SS in 1944 nor the families of men killed when a British submarine sank an Italian transport filled with British PoWs.
There was no `War Crimes` investigation into the murder of `Soldier Six` as none of the perpertrators could be traced.I do not know how much you are aware of regarding the `War Crimes` in and around St Venant in 1940 there are believed to have been around `Sixty` British soldiers murdered here there are files on many some named the majority unknown.Forty unknowns I believe in St Venant alone (?) This is why we should proceed with caution.Keep up the good work .

Best Wishes

Jim

[Baconwallah]

Thanks for the info, Jim. I do realise that it's a big job. Still, it's been done before, so...

A copy of the 2 DLI WD for say 25 May (or whenever they first moved to the St Floris - St Venant sector) to 27 May would certainly help. Could you post that or email it to me, please? And the testimony of M Boulet and his maid?

If anyone on the Forum has the 1 RWF WD for the same period, that too would be much appreciated. Al perhaps?

John

[ap1]

If anyone on the Forum has the 1 RWF WD for the same period, that too would be much appreciated. Al perhaps?

John

Its in the Vault John!

[Baconwallah]

Thanks, Al. Never thought of that.

John

[teecee1941]

John,

I'm pleased that Verrieres has reigned us in a little. To be honest, I was getting a little carried away and I think that once your hopes are built up, it is easier to take the route that you'd prefer to take rather than the one that you should take. I have been trying to email you and Jack a copy of the St Venant War Crimes, or at least the page that this quest is based on. That is, case No 6, a British soldier, wounded in both legs, being shot in the head by an SS soldier on the land of Farm Boulet. There were two witnesses, Mr Victor Boulet aged 64 and a 20 year old girl. This British soldier was, after about three days, buried on the Robecq Road. Two years later his body (and others)was exhumed in the presence of a pathologist who took notes regarding each body. I believe that these pathologists reports are still in the custody of St Venant council officials. There is a record of where each body lay before exhumation.

If the reports say that soldier No 6 had wounds to both legs, a flesh wound to the neck and a final gunshot wound to the head, then I think it is highly likely that this soldier would be Pte Corkhill who was, I believe, operating in the area. As I have said all along, I believe that the location of Farm Boulet is vital to this enquiry. The reason being that if the farm was situated a fair distance from DLI HQ where Anthony was likely to have been at the time, then I would expect that soldier No 6 was not him and that part of my quest would, frustratingly, be closed.

Not having a military background, I might be a long way off with this next theory;- Anthony was batman to RSM Goddard who was with HQ. Whilst they would not have been tied together with a piece of string, is it not possible that where RSM Goddard was, his batman may have been expected to run errands and carry messages etc., thus creating a need to be 'not too far away' from one another. Wishful thinking perhaps, but if that was the case, it strengthens the expectation that Farm Boulet was the DLI HQ and that Anthony had reason to be in that vicinity.

It is said that 'up to sixty' murders were committed in the area but only four witnesses came forward because of fear. I think this is only partly true. It may be that the War Crimes Tribunal only called four named witnesses for whatever reason. I will read through the 250 page War Crimes document once again(!) and I will count up the witnesses. Possibly only four played any sort of major part but I am sure that there were more additional witnesses. That is to say that one person may have given their name in a statement but had been with others at the time who had also seen the murders. In any case, the War Crimes Trials were not held until, I think, 1946. By then there may well have been quite a lot of belated witnesses who, were prepared to say what they saw with reassurance that the war was over.

I have seen a document detailing where 54 bodies were buried prior to exhumation including the body of DLI lad Tom Rodgers. Many of these would have been murdered and although a good many are named, there are quite a few unknowns or 'inconnus'. Schoolboy logic again perhaps, but if witnesses were terrified to come forward how did the authorities know where all the bodies were buried? Jim has already highlighted that one 'inconnu' on this document was murdered on land occupied by Victor Boulet. This is the only mention of Victor Boulet on this one page list. Other bodies were dotted about in other areas suggesting that this would have been the body of soldier No6.

There should still be a record of where in the Communal Cemetery this body was reburied and, dare I say it again, if this body has injuries akin to those of Anthony, then it all falls into place.

[Baconwallah]

Jim has already highlighted that one 'inconnu' on this document was murdered on land occupied by Victor Boulet. This is the only mention of Victor Boulet on this one page list. Other bodies were dotted about in other areas suggesting that this would have been the body of soldier No6.

There should still be a record of where in the Communal Cemetery this body was reburied and, dare I say it again, if this body has injuries akin to those of Anthony, then it all falls into place.

Exactly my reasoning, Tony.

We are hot on the trail of the Ferme Boulet and the path report, so all possibilities are still open. My friend is looking into both issues (and, he implied, enjoying it).

And yes, you are right in assuming that the RSM and his batman would be more or less in the same area. Moreover, if the RSM saw your uncle when he was being led away, he must have been close. I do not think that the Germans would have given him a grand tour of the battlefield while on his way to the PoW cage.

John

[Verrieres]

Thanks for the info, Jim. I do realise that it's a big job. Still, it's been done before, so...

A copy of the 2 DLI WD for say 25 May (or whenever they first moved to the St Floris - St Venant sector) to 27 May would certainly help. Could you post that or email it to me, please? And the testimony of M Boulet and his maid?

If anyone on the Forum has the 1 RWF WD for the same period, that too would be much appreciated. Al perhaps?

John
Hello John,
Please find attached files relating to the War Diary of 2 DLI 25th-27th May 1940

[Verrieres]

Thanks for the info, Jim. I do realise that it's a big job. Still, it's been done before, so...

A copy of the 2 DLI WD for say 25 May (or whenever they first moved to the St Floris - St Venant sector) to 27 May would certainly help. Could you post that or email it to me, please? And the testimony of M Boulet and his maid?

If anyone on the Forum has the 1 RWF WD for the same period, that too would be much appreciated. Al perhaps?

John
Hello John/Tony,
It has indeed been done before hopefully it will be done again,but this is only the beginning .I can answer the question relating to Anthonys proximity to RSM Goddard as it was RSM Goddard who asked the Germans if they could take Anthony with them it was also RSM Goddard who directed the Field Ambulance back in Anthonys direction, and Anthony was having a `lucid` conversation with RSM Goddard just prior to them being marched off.RSM Goddard also described Pte Corkhills wounds at the time.
Only four cases are covered in depth within the file there are the briefest of descriptions relating to the incident from the witnesses concerning `Soldier Six`.If Tony wants to forward these on I`m sure he will.I have the files which ,with respect, I will not be posting as some pages go off into detail of other cases in the area and their horrific nature I feel will lead away from the goal of establishing Ferme Boulet
Best Wishes

Jim

[Baconwallah]

Jim, thanks for the WD pages. I had hoped to find some hints to the location of Bn HQ, but nothing doing. It's still not entirely clear where the RWF and DLI were, relative to the town of St Venant.

Thanks also for trying to keep my sensitive soul from harm. Not that I'm easily shocked, after 30 years in operating theatres and A&E, but it's the thought that counts.

Off now for some more digging in my library. Next week I expect to have more news from France.

John

[Verrieres]

Jim, thanks for the WD pages. I had hoped to find some hints to the location of Bn HQ, but nothing doing. It's still not entirely clear where the RWF and DLI were, relative to the town of St Venant.

Thanks also for trying to keep my sensitive soul from harm. Not that I'm easily shocked, after 30 years in operating theatres and A&E, but it's the thought that counts.

Off now for some more digging in my library. Next week I expect to have more news from France.

John

Hello John,
Sorry I`m sure you can stomach the details ,the reason for not posting was to protect any family member stumbling across something they would rather not know its different if like Tony you seek the truth some I have found would rather not know.The files are open in the National Archives for to research so they are open to the public.Also I would not like to deflect from Tonys aim.I`m sure you understand.
Best Wishes

Jim

[Baconwallah]

As I said, Jim, it's the thought that counts.

Tony meanwhile sent me the typed (by him) text, queer Franglais and all, and it's very interesting indeed. We have been searching to the east of St Venant, but from the text it is clear that we should look on the other, western side. My 1917 map (detail attd) shows that the likely location is in a range of two map squares, i.e. 2000 yards along the Bas Hamel road.

My French friend told me that his information too indicates that the Ferme Boulet was to the west of the town on the Bas Hamel road. Locating it should now be much easier. He will visit the Mairie of St Venant next week to check the archives for M Boulet and while he's there to have a shufti at the path report as well. We'll see. Watch this space.

John

2801

[ivor43]

hi guys.
just a quickie. where ever i looked i have never seen any ref to 2DLI ever being further west than St Venant Cemetary. also bear in mind that once the Germans crossed the Lys they went east to attack Merville.
as teecee established very early on in this.the Boulet was a common name within the area so it is quite possible that there would be a number of farm boulet's
while all info is helpful some of this is confusing the issue.
we know that 2 DLI were tasked with holding St Flores on the 24th there is no evidence that they moved position before being overrun. i am very sorry but i have some misgivings about the positions stated in war diarys. we need to await info from the contacts and if we are wrong then reasses our position

ivor

[Baconwallah]

Ivor, I've spent most of the afternoon and the evening digging around in my extensive library and have drawn you the attached map. Two coys of 2 DLI were spread along the Rue d'Aire, one of them Tom Rodgers who is remembered by a memorial plaque on the spot where he was killed. St Floris was the responsibility of 1 RWF and they repulsed a German attack there on 24th May before advancing to capture St Venant. The French named a road after LtCol Harrison on the other side of the canal. Later (c.26th May) one coy of 2 DLI (probably C Coy) was moved to the left flank of the RWF, at St Floris. The right flank of the brigade was held by the Berks at Bas Hamel itself.

The info about the Ferme Boulet being on the Bas Hamel road does not come from any war diary (the RWF WD is confused, the DLI WD gives no place names) but from the extract of the War Crimes hearings Tony sent me. My friend on the spot confirms it after enquiries made earlier this week. He will try to pinpoint the location next week.

The Germans (3 Pz Div) crossed east of St Floris and then turned right to Merville, leaving St Venant to the SS Verfügungs Div. You were certainly right there.

John

2813

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Hi all.
I wrote the following last night before i saw johns latest post.you beat me to Rue Colonel Harrison.

If I seemed a bit short in my last post Im sorry, but I had just realized something that I found quite upsetting. which I will not include here. but since I pulled back on Friday I have not pulled out of the quest. During my searches I have acquired a large amount of info, small pieces from a large no of places. Pulling back has allowed me time to put this into some sort of order.
In all that I have read nowhere is there any indication that 2DLI was ever anywhere further west than St Floris except that after 27th Bn HQ was moved to St Venant Cemetery.Neither is there any record, that i have found,apart from the 2 RWF Cos sent to take the bridge west of Robeq of RWF being any further west of St Venant.


What follows is based on known fact from entries in war records and several ww2 forum and a German military historical (English language ) site.

Fact. 3 Panzer took St Venant/St Floris the day before the attack by RWF/ 2DLI.

Fact. 3 Panzer contained Bridge Building units.

Fact. in one article I read the bridge was referred to as a TEMPORARY Bridge..???? Built by 3 Panzer.

Fact In RWF War Diary it states that Bridge Building Material was captured in ST FLORIS area.

Fact. In RWF War Diary it states that engineers were seen approaching from the Haverskerque direction but unfortunately were engaged before they could be captured. ???? From across the fields ?. (further relevance later).

Fact. On 24th 2DLI tasked with Defiance of ST Floris. ??? and bridge

Fact. In RWF War Diary. 27th May Bn HQ suffered direct hit. no further contact with HQ. persons missing Lt Colonel Harrison and others.
Fact. From 2DLI.Early 27Th .Col Harrison issuing orders AT BRIDGE area. ??? Was RWF HQ also near Bridge.

Fact. Rendezvous for retreating forces was Haverskirque

Fact. From 2DLI. Col Harrison escaped over bridge. Killed SHORT TIME LATER…???? Col Harrison heading for Rendezvous. across fields. ***** Village of Le Corbie on the Haverskirque to Merville Rd,towards the Western end, has a road named Rue Du Colonel Harrison.

Fact. From 2DLI Col Harrison issued orders that anyone who could was to get over the bridge. ????? Did RSM Goddard order Private Corkhill to go.

Fact. From 2DLI.About 12.00 Private Corkhill seen by Goddard and others ( now P.O.W.s) wounded by the canal in both legs and neck ( not Critical ) assured by Germans that he would get treatment..

Fact. Private Corkhill never seen again.

On 29th May . I suspect, that a number of local people including the 2 witnesses under the command of an S.S. Officer were collecting bodies within the area so it could be used as a holding area prior to crossing the bridge.

A British soldier was found alive but wounded in both legs. We know the result.

Ok. from here on things are very vague. we know that Private Corkhill had left his ’Dog Tags’ in the UK. thus making identification virtually impossible. If john can obtain some info from the autopsy report then we might get a bit further.

I also believe that Farm Boulet was near the bridge.

Finally in the page scanned from ‘ The Red Dragon’ it says. ’’Through the gap EAST of StVenant the enemies armored columns had advanced on Merville''

My own feeling is that it was Private Corkhill that was executed. and buried in the Robeq Rd. and that he was soldier 6 and is buried in the Cemetery at Calonne sur le lys

Is the burial plot of Soldier 6 known ???.

But of course I may be totally wrong.


ivor

[ivor43]

hi
as a result of reading john's latest post.i wonder if we are looking at an entirely different phase of the battle. the only actions i am aware of that took place to the west was when the RWF Bn Hq tried to pull back to Haverskirque when they came under heave fire. or after the St Venant bridge was blown when many troops had to swim the river.
We know that the German troops would be to the west of Haverskirque,as they had access to the bridges at Robeq. so it is likely that Tom Rodgers was killed in a different action.
whatever units were to the east were effectively wiped out. this would leave the eastern flank of St Venant open which would be good reason for blowing the bridge as the town was becoming increasingly indefensible.

will keep looking when i can

ivor

[Baconwallah]

You wonder if we are looking at an entirely different phase of the battle.

We are indeed, Ivor. While you have been producing an impressive number of facts which taken together form a first class description of the final hours of the RWF's stand at St Venant and St Floris against 3 Pz Div, I have been looking at the last stand of the DLI (and the Berks) against the SS Verfügungsdivision. The two actions are, although related in a larger context, the defence of the Lys Canal, unrelated in a more local sense.

The DLI probably shared responsibility for the road bridge at St Venant with the RWF. The situation is unclear. In its own sector, the DLI had to protect foot bridges across the canal. There was one just opposite Haverskerque (which stilll exists) and probably another one at Bas Hamel. Further W in the sector of 1 Berks there was a lock.

On the dispositions of 2 DLI a French historian wrote


La défense de Saint-Venant est complétée le 25 par l'arrivée des deux autres bataillons de la 6ème brigade: le 2nd Durham Light Infantry et le 1er Royal Berkshire. Les compagnies B et D du 2nd D.L.I. et le 1er Royal Berkshire sont envoyés dans la rue d'Aire (le 27 mai ils seront opposés au régiment S.S. Germania). Les compagnies A et C du 2nd D.L.I. occupent la plaine devant Saint-Venant entre les rues des Amuzoires et de Robecq. L'état-major du bataillon est situé dans une ferme située à l'intersection de la rue des Amuzoires et du canal.
and these dispositions you will find reflected in my little annotated map (post 102). Interestingly, he places 2 DLI HQ in the farm I originally pinpointed.

In short, although you found no trace of the Durhams W of St Venant, that does not mean they weren't there.

John

[Verrieres]

Wow you have been busy ,now I can let you know a little more about the 2DLI involvement.First the DLI HQ was in Bas Hamel on the 24th May 1940 from the 24th May to the 27th it moved three times! The last was into a Barn which was near the RWF who had pulled back next to 2DLI to consolidate their forces the RWF were in the Cemetery I believe. C and A Companies fought a different action to that of D and B Companies who due to losses were operating as a composite unit. The order `Every man for himself` was given to the remnants of D and B Company by a senior NCO once all the officers had been killed..this was not part of Harrisons order it was made on the spot by the NCO. Harrisons order to fall back was given to the 2DLI Adjutant Capt Townsend who was shot in the face crossing the Bridge the order to fall back never reached 2DLI in the Barn.From the Barn action only 10 men plus the wounded Townsend escaped.I believe one or two were killed at Merville? on the 29th May 1940. You are looking at three seperate actions involving the DLI alone.A C and B companies were wiped out ,virtually, with a total of 150 men returning to England from a complement of nearly 700.Does this help or am I complicating things.

On other matters Baconwallah Disc posted!
On other matters and I hope this makes sense the locations of the unknowns that Tony has sent today are the original field burials the page is from In Search of Tom there is no title pageto the document .

The Autopsy reports are not in the hands of the Mayor of St Venant .Pte Tom Rodgers report was in the office of M.Faivre. Phew!

Best Wishes

Jim

[Baconwallah]

An interesting post, Jim.

The three actions of 2 DLI as I understand it were
1 - next to the churchyard, together with 1 RWF
2 - around Ferme Boulet
3 - presumably on the southern fringe of St Venant village (I assume)

Apparently my first guess at Ferme Boulet was 50% right: the farm was HQ, but it wasn't Ferme Boulet since that was in or near Bas Hamel.

Two problems:
- is the inconnu at Ferme Boulet (burial report) the same man who according to M Boulet's testimony was buried near the Rue de Robecq? The two locations seem irreconcileable. So instead of field burials perhaps the document lists the locations of the casualties before they were taken away to a temporary grave at Rue de Robecq?
- if the man at Ferme Boulet was Pte Corkhill, then why were the RSM and he there instead of at HQ?

I think it's necessary for my French friend to go in search of M Faivre.

John

[teecee1941]

Hello Ivor. John,

We have certainly opened a can of worms here. I think it is unbelievable that the amount of information that has been turned up in the space of a week has not led to a satisfactory conclusion. I am a complete novice at this sort of thing and have, for almost the last three years, relied on Jim to supply me with all the information that I had up to last week when I joined this forum. I'm sure that the BBC could make an excellent documentary out of this. We may be an inch or a mile away from knowing the truth. Every night I go to bed with my head buzzing. This the sort of thing that can easily take over a person's life.

Before sentiment takes over, I have an extract from the diary of Major Townsend of the events of the 27th;- ''A verbal message came up that Col Harrison of the RWF whose HQ was a little further along the bank towards the bridge, wanted (to speak with) Col Simpson. As the CO had recently been at the RWF HQ talking to Bde HQ by wireless and not knowing exactly where he was (space) I crawled back to see Col Harrison. He said the position was untenable and that he was taking what men he could to form a bridgehead. I was to bring back any men I could''

The CO did not know exactly where he was. More and more, I am thinking that a feature of this whole scenario was that it was not known, constantly, where anyone was. Is it not possible that the DLI thought they were in one place and the RWF thought they were somewhere else, due to the earlier withdrawal of maps? Here is a bit more from the diary;-

.....''After a few minutes the armoured cars came on towards me, so I withdrew with two men and eventually reached the bridge...............Col Harrison's RSM came up to say that the armoured cras were approaching the bridge. I was told to get my men over the bridge. We ran the gauntlet of enemy MG fire but on reaching the other side I was shot in the face. A Welshman put on a field dressing and I managed to walk away under more MG fire..................When Col Harrison saw how close the leading tanks were, (150 yards) he ordered the RE to blow the bridge but none were available......................the situation became impossible because about 20 men were holding the bridge with only one Bren gun against at least five tanks........the leading tank came across the bridge and wiped out most of the men holding it and blew up some of the houses where men were sheltering..........this tank then made its way to the head of the road leading to Haverskerque and shelled three RWF carriers withdrawing. Its career was cut short by an 18 pdr gun..........sixty men under 2nd Lt Rudd made their way to the Forest of Nieppe and joined (B) Echelon.

John, I said that I had seen it written that the RWF and DLI were sent to fill up the gaping hole around Bas Hamel. You'll have to give me a day or two on this one as far as to where the information came from. I have read so much over the last few days and have passed stuff on in emails and on these pages. My head will burst soon, I'm sure.

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Hi all.

OK. so we have successfully proved where the breakthrough took place. But I am now somewhat confused.
Right, this is now difficult as without internet access I have to rely on Memory, and a couple of john’s maps, and I have not been looking very much to the west. So, although I am not convinced this is the right place. What have I learned?
The RWF and some of 2DLI were approaching from the east. on 23rd they reached St Floris.
24th 2DLI was tasked with holding St Floris while RWF continued on towards St Venant taking it on 25th. A. & C. Co’s RWF carrying on towards the western bridge near Robeq which they were unable to reach. Taking some casualties. Where did they take up position when they withdrew?
If my memory is still working A.& D Co RWF were placed on the left flank of 2DLI,at St Floris. With D Co continuing towards Robeq until they were ambushed.

Ok. John on your map you show DLI forces on an E/W axis I assume facing south ? but if the Germans were already on the North bank surely the threat would come from their west flank. And on your map showing the breakthrough area it would appear that the German front did in fact hit the west flank of DLI and as they seem to have troops further north then I am not sure how any troops from DLI would be able to get to the area you have marked as Farm Boulet. Surely they would be pushed back east or north east whilst your farm is north at Haveskirque.
Odd.
Assuming a flank attack then what are the options for DLI. Withdrawal to St Venant and cross the bridge. Without the internet I have no other idea and I will not speculate. I do recall reading that soldiers trying to swim the canal where machine gunned from the bank and also many drowned. I am not sure where but I think it was to the west of St Venant.
Will have to do some more digging, when I can. But in the meantime a couple of questions.
According to page 189 of ‘The Red Dragon’ it states ‘’ and recaptured by the British 2ND Division on 25th May (page 146)’’. I would like to see page 146, if possible. It also refers to 1st RWF and PART of 2DI. Does 4 Co’s constitute a part? How many Co’s where there?

OK I was just about to bed down for the night when I had a flash of inspiration, it’s ok it wasn’t painful. John your farm is in the region of Haveskirque. But the war crimes files state Calonne Sur le Lys - St Venant area. Surely this implies that the incident took place to the east of StVenant. But if it was where you suggest, surely it would read Haveskirque – St Venant Area.
While a lot of the stuff we are dealing with is, because of the situation, very vague. I do not think that the War Crimes Commission suffered this problem. And I am quite convinced that they would be pretty accurate with their locating the incident.
Just a thought, but maybe worth considering.

ivor

[ivor43]

Hi all.
the above was written last night as a word document an i copied/pasted it in.this is now live. TeeCee.What you are quoting, i believe ,refers to the action at the bridge east of St Floris. it gives a few more details to what.i already know.
i believe it confirms that both 2DLI and RWF had HQ's at the bridge. If the 2 Colonels were there then i would think it could have been Bn HQ's.
John . if the the 2DLI's Colonel was there then i assume it is quite possible that RSM Goddard would be there also, as would his Batman?
Back to Sq 1
OK..you all know my belief on this and,teecee's quote just strengthens that belief.

on a different subject. i have now found out that i can use my mobile phone as a Hotspot so i can access the Forum again.i have to check a few details re usage etc but it should mean that i can at least check what is going on.

ivor

[Baconwallah]

Ivor, I hope to receive the full War Crimes report this week, and that may contain some hints on where to look.

You are right in saying that both Bn HQs were near the bridge at St Venant. 1 RWF had its Bn HQ in the cemetery and was responsible for the front E of St Venant, 2 DLI had its Bn HQ in a farm with a large barn, less than 50 yards away from 1 RWF HQ, and this is probably the farm and barn shown in my Google Street View photographs. 2 DLI was responsible for the line S and W of St Venant, with the exception of Robecq where B Coy 1 RWF was holding out.

Getting back to basics, these are the documented facts we must try to connect and reconcile:

- RSM Goddard saw Pte Corkhill, wounded in both legs and neck, and made him comfortable on the canal bank. Location unknown. [letter of RSM Goddard to family]
- M Victor Boulet saw a man wounded in both legs being murdered by an SS officer, opposite his farm on the Rue du Bas-Hamel. [war crimes testimony]
- an unidentified body was recovered from the pasture opposite the Ferme Boulet at Bas-Hamel [French list of bodies recovered from the Rue du Bas-Hamel - Rue d'Aire area]
- both Bn HQs were located to the E of St Venant, some 500 yards from the road bridge [RWF WD, http://www.webmatters.net/txtpat/index.php?id=272, http://arham62.monsite-orange.fr/page1/index.html]

John

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Hi again
(i've done this through mobile phone hotspot)


A number of things have been seriously bothering me about this action at the bridge. all 4 Co’s of both RWF and 2DLI and the Berkshires are accounted for, we know where they were. So what were these units at the bridge.
There was a bit of info that had been floating about, in the background, amongst the rest which never really got my attention. till now.
On one of the 3 maps that jungle submitted via bob it shows a Brigade HQ at Calonne near the junction of the Robecq Rd.
Where did it go? or is this what was at the bridge ?
It would make a certain amount of sense. They could withdraw across the bridge either towards Haveskirque or the forest where a no of troops were gathering.
This might account for the presence of 2 colonels and some other top brass. The RWF diary mentions 2 i/c. i/o. Padre and RSM. As being there.
I am assuming that a Brigade HQ Co would be made up of elements of the units comprising the Brigade but in what sort of numbers ?
Can anyone tell me is a Brigade Hq Co a fighting unit or is it more admin with a few teeth?
Would this unit have the weapons and amo to fight off a sustained attack from a panzer unit ? like only 1 Bren.
And finally, and I think this is critical. John I think you raised the question of the reason why the RSM would be there. I think this could be your answer.

OK. Let me bounce this around.

On 23rd RWF arrive St Floris.
When on 24th was 2DLI tasked with defending St Floris. ????? Where did these guy’s come from as we know where the 4Co’s went.
We know that Bgd HQ was shown on a map outside Calonne. Did they move up to St Floris on 24th.to a barn near the bridge (farm Boulet). Was it the 2DLI element of Bgd Hq that was tasked.
On 27th Col Harrison initially orders 2DLI to fall back Through RWF. Were these Bgd Hq men as we also know where the 4 RWF Co’s where.
OK this next bit might seem obvious but if 2 DLI were to pull back through RWF. Where were RWF. ???? Second line of defence at bridge.?
Right, this brings a lot of brass into the area. We know there are 2 colonels. the RWF
Seem to have a lot of staff there, so I would expect 2DLI to have similar. We are told that RWF’s RSM is there so I think it fairly safe to assume that 2DLI’s RSM Goddard would be there also. With his Batman.Pte A Corkhill.

This would put the right people, in the right place, at the right time. BUT before we jump to any conclusions.
We know were Bn HQ’s were
Does anyone have any info regarding the location of Brigade HQ 24th -27th May???
This could be crucial.

ivor

[Baconwallah]

All I can tell you, Ivor, is that the DLI WD says that on the 27th in the midst of the fighting the Brigadier turned up and sanctioned a withdrawal. Where he came from. no idea. Where he went after that, again no idea but probably N across the canal.

A Bde HQ might be able to defend itself after a fashion, if the orderly room clerks could find their rifles, but its fighting potential would be severely limited. That was, after all, not its intended function.

As for RSM Goddard, I can only repeat what I have said before and also implied in my previous post. Location unknown. If he was near the Rue du Bas-Hamel, it would tie in nicely with the testimony of M Boulet, but we have no evidence for that and no documented reason for his being there, away from Bn HQ. If he was at Bn HQ, it logically follows that the man seen by M Boulet must have been somebody else and we should be looking for another man with leg wounds in the combined HQ area of the cemetery. Nice puzzle.

John

[teecee1941]

John, your last paragraph seems to be the most logical answer to the mystery and it is the one I am going with at the moment, although I have swayed from one to the other quite a few times. As you say, if RSM Goddard and Pte Corkhill were in the cemetery HQ, then Victor Boulet would have seen a different soldier being shot, not Anthony. This would answer my short-term search, ie for the location of Farm Boulet, although I do not want to lose sight of the bigger picture which is, to find the unmarked grave of my father's brother. Is our French friend still on the case? Might he yet come up with a king size clue?

PS sent you a PM earlier

Tony

[Baconwallah]

PM problem (full in-box) solved. Please try again at your convenience.

My French friend is still on the case and as far as I know was planning to go to St Venant this week to pester the Maire. I think we should ask him to try and contact M Faivre as well.

John

[ivor43]

john.

a nice puzzle indeed.
But. we talk of Bn Hq's but seem to be ignoring Bgd Hq. we know it was at Calonne from the map.so where did it go from there. if the Brigadier suddenly turns up the hq must have been reasonably close. if i remember correctly an entry in the RWF Diary for 27th says that HQ suffered a direct hit and no further communications were possible and it then gave a list of persons missing. some of these we know were alive at the bridge,so what was this HQ. could it have been BGD HQ.
If he had been at the bridge when it was lost, is it not possible that,realizing that the situation was now impossible would he, instead of escaping over the bridge to the north,visit the Bn Hq to order the withdrawal and the blowing of the St Venant bridge



ivor

[Baconwallah]

I've checked the RWF WD, Ivor. It says "0600 - Bn HQ Suffered a direct hit from arty fire." All the men listed as missing were officers belonging to Bn HQ. The entry was obviously made by a Company officer who after the action had the difficult task of producing some sort of an account for the WD, all officers of Bn HQ being dead or captured. Hence the "<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:HyphenationZone>21</w:HyphenationZone> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->No further contact was made with Bn HQ."

John

[Bob Lake]

A Brigade HQ in the field oftens splits to allow the Brigade Commander to get forward and as mobile as possible so he can influence the battle. Often known as a Tac HQ (tactical_HQ) which would have a security group 3, signallers 2, staff officers including the BAO (Brigade Artillery Officer) 3 and possibly some liaison officers from units to run orders to his units. Numbers would probably be three to four jeep sized vehicles. (12 to 15 persons say) The Main HQ would be elsewhere containing the balance of signallers manning rear link to Divisional HQ and Forward Links to the Commander and Units as well as the balance of staff officers and transport.

So it is quite feasible for Brigade HQ to a have been split into TAC and MAIN. The two parts tend to move separately in bounds in a mobile situation so that one foot is always on the ground but in the rout situation of Dunkirk I suppose anything could happen.

If all COs were together on the road bridge it was probably a brigade Orders Group (O Group).

I wish that I had chatted in more depth to Jack Wills (IO at the time) about all this at the time we were inaugurating the Memorial. He pointed out where the CO and BnHQ was shortly before they crossed the canal, it was in a ditch off the canal bank nearer the lock than the cemetery. I also took Demond Llewellyn (Q in the Bond movies) to Robecq to here his story with B Coy before he was captured. He found it very hard to identify locations but told a great story of how he was nearly shot as a spy by the Germans because the lock keeper had given him dry clothes after swimming the Bourne Canal just before he was captured.

Bob

[Baconwallah]

Some clarification, after reading the War Crimes report.

The theory that M Boulet was actually a witness to a killing elsewhere, i.e. away from his farm, will not hold. The report clearly states that a British soldier, wounded in the legs, was shot at the Boulet farm. Witnesses: M Boulet, Mlle Josien.

The report describes atrocities in the St Venant area and the Calonne area. For St Venant it describes killings W and SW of St Venant as well as in St Venant itself, for Calonne it describes killings S of Calonne. Haverskerque does not come into it, sorry Ivor. Obviously the names St Venant and Calonne are used to indicate the administrative areas ('communes'), not just the villages themselves. Haverskerque is not only a different commune, it is also in a different Département.

John

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Morning all. (well this was actually written last night )

I thought I understood the St Floris/bridge part of this action but as there is a Bgd HQ in the area it poses another set of questions. So, and i hope you will forgive me, I am going to keep shaking this for a bit to see what, if anything, falls out.

Something did. not what I expected. But a size 9 BOOT which promptly buried itself to the 3rd lace hole you know where.

AARRGGHH ,(various forceful expletives) All along I have been thinking of a defensive line south from the bridge. one of you mentioned the Hq being 500yds ahead of the bridge. But it still did’nt register. Of course it wasn’t south from the bridge (bl**** stupid idea). If the Hq was 500yds from the bridge then the defensive line would have been somewhere in advance of it. and I assume would curve in a south west direction so that A Co RWF which as far as I know was still on the left flank of 2DLI. would end up on a roughly east/west axis with their backs to the bridge. Also covering Bgd Hq.( at this point if anyone wishes to make any suitable comments please feel free to do so).
OK so now I do understand. As the defensive line was pushed back then Bgd Hq staff would have had to evacuate towards the bridge. To a barn?. The RWF probably would have reached the bridge first and formed a defensive line so that 2 DLI and Brigade staff could get over the bridge. 2 DLI was unable to disengage, and were overrun some Bgd staff and forward Hq staff made it, some were wounded and others including RWF taken prisoner.
Guys, I may have been facing the wrong direction for 2 weeks but it has not really affected what I have written. It just means that it has taken me a lot longer to understand what I had been reading.
However looking east or south is of no consequence. If RSM Goddard and his Batman were either at the forward Hq or BGD Hq then they have to end up at or near the bridge.

Ok I am reading posts via my phone
first thank you Bob for that info re Brigade Hq a very interesting post.
With regard to the O Group what would be the composition. I am mainly interested in knowing if the RSM’s would be part of this group.
John thanks for the info re the war crimes report. Actually I have never considered Haveskirque as a possibility.
The rest is very interesting. With regard to the ‘Communes’ I assume these correspond roughly to our parishes, so I assume that St Floris is within the parish. But can we find how far east towards Calonne the boundary extends.
Right, if any of you are starting to think that I have fixation with this bridge you are probably right. My gut feeling tells me that this is the right place. Just one small, but very elusive, piece of info is all we need. It must be out there somewhere.
We know that units kept War Diaries would anyone know if a Bgd Hq would have kept records of Staff/planning meetings and would these contain a list of who was present.


Verriers as our DLI expert. John has located 4 DLI Co’s west of St Venant so have you any ideas what element of 2DLI was at the bridge?

ivor

[ivor43]

ok i am now live again.
i have quoted the following from teecee because it illustrates nicely one of the major points of confusion :-

''Before sentiment takes over, I have an extract from the diary of Major Townsend of the events of the 27th;- ''A verbal message came up that Col Harrison of the RWF whose HQ was a little further along the bank towards the bridge, wanted (to speak with) Col Simpson. As the CO had recently been at the RWF HQ talking to Bde HQ by wireless and not knowing exactly where he was (space) I crawled back to see Col Harrison. He said the position was untenable and that he was taking what men he could to form a bridgehead. I was to bring back any men I could''

this account must refer to the bridge at St Floris, not St Venant, as we know that Col Harrison escaped over this bridge.
this i think has been a source of confusion for a long time and maybe we can now put the record straight. It seems clear that at 0600 on 27th both RWF and 2DLI Bn Hq's were to the east of the St Floris bridge, RWF Hq takes a direct hit and all communications were lost, By Whom?
it would appear from the quote that wireless communications between RWF Hq and Bde Hq were still possible.
Could the Hq in the cemetery have been a Company Hq and because it assumed that everyone at Bn Hq was out of action promoted itself to Bn Hq? i also seem to recall that 2DLI did not relocate to the Cemetery area until after the loss of the bridge.
The defense of the St Floris bridge was the vital element in this battle.it's loss allowed the Germans a crossing point much further east than those at Robecq. So i think it reasonable to assume that all relevant staff would be within the area.

I am actually beginning to think that the Germans would have considered the St Floris bridge as much more important than the St Venant bridge. this was a purpose built construction with known limits. whereas the St Venant bridge was probably quite old and whilst suitable for local needs may not have been able to withstand the stresses of heavy traffic.


ivor

[jungle1810]

Hello All,
Info from the movements on the 24th May. As the day wore on parties of French infantry began to arrive nd it was confirmed they were to take over the BACHY position whilst the battalion (RWF) moved back to a rest area near LA BASSEE as G.H.Q Reserve Once again Major Owen set off to recce the new position they arrived at LA BASSEE just after it's second heavy air raid of the day. After some delay he reached DIV H.Q. to learn that the Battalion (RWF) were to with draw to the village of VIELLE CHAPELLE with the idea of holding up the enemy on the line of the LA BASSEE canal.
There were no maps available of the roads back to VIELLE CHAPELLE and the thick mist which came down with the coming of darkness made the task of lorry drivers more even more difficult . The battalion (RWF) was due to start it's move at 2300 hours but it was not until 05-00hrs on the 24th that the lorries at last appeared . A wide detour was made around LILLE which was being heavily attacked from the air and as the sun rose and dispersed the mist the column was bombed as it was passing through the village of ANOELIN but the whole convoy reached VIELLE CHAPELLE in safety. the companies were quickly dispersed to billets and all ranks settled down to rest

But once again it was not to be for long. Events now were moving rapidly and it was from the west that the new attacks were coming , BOULGNE had fallen and CALAIS attacked by two German Divisions, was in the last throes of of it's heroic defence. The new threat to the B.E.F. was mounted from the the direction of the Channel ports. and a swift thrust from the west had taken the enemy across the LA BASSEE canal in the vicinity of CALONNE sur LYS. It was the to be task of 6th infantry Brigade to recapture the four bridges over the canal near ROBECQ and hold them until the R.E could blow them. In the absence of any maps of the district the advance was a difficult one even more so by by the lack of any precise knowledge of the extent of the enemy 's advance. Riding in T.C.V's the Battalion proceeded via LA FOSSE and MERVILLE
to CALONNE where the T.C,V's left them. From CALONNE the companies were to march forward to ST FLORIS thee to divide with "C" coy objective as ST VENANT and the right hand bridge "B" coy ROBEQ and the two centre bridges and "D" coy to the left of "B" and the left hand bridge "A" Coy was to be held in reserve at ST FLORIS The carrier platoon under 2nd Lt J Garnett led the way to ST FLORIS with "C" Coy following on foot messages soon coming back to say the village was in the hands lof the enemy
Regard RBD

[Baconwallah]

Some info on two of your points, Ivor.

As for the extent of the St Venant commune, if you look at St Venant on Google Maps you will see the exact area nicely coloured pink.

From the Townsend diary it is clear that at least the remnants of D Coy 2 DLI were near the bridge, under cmd of CSM Metcalfe (who received the MC for his efforts). The remnants of B Coy 2 DLI may have ended up in the Bas-Hamel to the Haverskerque foot bridge area, cut off from the main body. No definite info there.

I think that 'No.6' can be discounted. We must look for Tony's uncle near the bridge.

John

[Baconwallah]

Additional info: according to the DLI WD, Bde HQ was situated at Le Touquet, just north of Haverskerque, off the main road. See my 1917 map.

John

[Verrieres]

http://i488.photobucket.com/albums/rr245/Verrieres/other/map.jpgIvor,This is a re-working of The Tom Rodgers Memorial Plaque.Perhaps it will help?
Best Wishes
Jim

[Baconwallah]

I have now seen the relevant pages of Capt Townsend's diary. He describes how, in the early morning of the 27th, RSM Goddard is evacuating Bn HQ vehicles across the bridge. The RWF pulls back closer to the bridge. DLI HQ receives a direct hit. Then three German armoured cars approach along the tow-path. The sole remaining 2-pdr is out of action. While groups of men remain on the south bank, unable to move under the heavy enemy fire, Townsend and some others manage to escape across the bridge. They are followed by a German tank which turns into the head of the Haverskerque road where it is then disabled by an 18-pdr.

We must look for Tony's uncle near the St Venant bridge.

John.

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Hi all.
A lot more info, but a lot more confusion.
All this hinges on 2 bridges, the St Venant town bridge and a temporary bridge at St Floris
This has been causing confusion since 1940 so can we possibly now solve this problem ?
We know that the maps of France had been withdrawn. So the commanders in the field, in such a fluid situation, possibly were, at times, not exactly sure where the troops were.
St Venant was the larger community in this particular area so I would assume that it was used as a ‘cover all’ for the area. St Floris is not really mentioned. But in this eastern phase of this operation this was a much more critical position than St Venant.
The bridge at St Venant was a town bridge which may have been suitable for local traffic, but may not have been suitable for sustained heavy traffic. I do not believe this bridge was ever a serious target for the assaulting forces
However the bridge at St Floris, was referred to a ‘temporary bridge’. we know that 3Panzer had bridging units with it, and that bridge building equipment was capture at St Floris. And we know that after the battle in this area there was major armoured movement over it. So I have no hesitation in believing that this bridge was put in place by the bridge engineers of 3 Panzer. It was purpose built with known limits etc and considerably further east than the Robecq bridges that actually faced west/south.
This, I am sure, would have been the main thrust of the German assault not St Venant.
The St Floris Bridge is in open country. The St Venant Bridge is in the middle of a town. The St Floris Bridge is purpose built, the St Venant Bridge is an unknown quantity. To me. No contest.
The operation in the west after securing the bridges at Robecq would probably, to the Germans at least, be more of a ‘mopping up’ exercise. They had secured their objectives.
OK. let us go back to the eastern action. we have evidence from the diary of Major Townsend, that at least the remnant of D Co. 2DLI were here, and from RWF diary that A Co RWF had been positioned on the left of 2DLI these units formed a defensive line from a point at least 500yds to the east of the St Floris bridge. Presumably on a south to west arc. With RWF nearest to the bridge.
Now on the Map (Page 27 of the Red Dragon) submitted by jungle. It shows a Brigade HQ on the edge of Calonne near the junction of the Robecq Rd. I would assume that this would be within the defensive line. I have already written on this in my last post.
However from jungle’s last post. which states D CO RWF was to take the East Bridge at Robecq, that B CO had the 2 middle bridges and C CO the western bridge on the St Venant Rd and that A Co RWF was being held as reserve at St Floris. But the map shows A & C Co’s as being held just west of St Venant this would have probably been 24th/25th May. So it would appear that A Co was withdrawn to St Floris. To the defensive line.
There is also evidence that 2 DLI had a HQ 500yds from the St Floris Bridge with a RWF Hq close by( which took a direct hit on 27th), we know this, again from the Diary of Major Townsend.
It is my feeling that references to St Venant in some instances should be treated with a certain amount of caution.
Jim thanks for the Tom Rodgers info but I am not sure A Co RWF were actually at that location.


John. This action is at the St Floris Bridge. Major Townsend states that ‘’a verbal message came up that Col Harrison of the RWF whose HQ was a little further along the bank towards the bridge wanted to speak to Col Simpson. As………. I crawled back to see Col Harrison………………………………I was to bring back any men I could’’
WE KNOW COL HARRISON WAS AT THE St FLORIS BRIDGE.

[Baconwallah]

Ivor, if you are correct in stating that 'the bridge' was the temporary bridge at St Floris built by 3 Pz, does that imply that RSM Goddard was evacuating Bn HQ vehicles across a bridge in German hands?
Also, from the St Floris bridge, a tank could not immediately turn into the Haverskerque road, as Townsend describes. That would be a mile away, trough terrain criss-crossed with ditches. From the Rue de Motte Baudet, another 2500 yds.

I think the St Venant road bridge is meant.

John

[teecee1941]

Hello again all, something that keeps gnawing away at me about Anthony's disappearance is this;- The CWGC has his date of death as 29th May 1940. This not negotiable. Even the Roll of Honour in the DLI Chapel in Durham Cathedral displays his name on this day. RSM Goddard was the last person of any significance to see him alive and, on the 25/09/41, wrote to the Red Cross to say that this had been on the 27th May 1940. There are no records of him being dead or alive after that date. Can anyone say why the CWGC say that he died on that day? All along, I have thought that although the Germans said that they were going to take him to hospital, they would have got rid of him as soon as RSM Goddard was marched off to a POW camp. But,just supposing, the stretcher bearers who RSM Goddard spoke to, were just ordinary soldiers doing their every-day work and had no connection with the SS. Just supposing they did take Anthony to hospital like they said they would. What if the SS came into the hospital a day or two later and shot him then?

Is it not possible that the DLI were told of Anthony's death by a witness and at a time of 'stocktaking' added his name to the list of the dead. RSM Goddard would be ignorant of Anthony's death as he was well on his way to the camp by then, where he spent the rest of the war.

There is no doubt that the CWGC were at some time informed by someone of Anthony's death. They did not just pull the date from a conjurors hat. Would it be possible to find out this information? Would the CWGC tell me if I asked them? I would really like to hear everyone's views on this.

If Anthony was indeed shot in hospital, this discounts soldier No 6 and possibly makes the task of finding out the truth almost an impossible task.

Thanks

Tony

[ivor43]

john
the bridge at S Floris was taken by RWF on 23rd/24th when they took St Floris/ St Venant. you will recall that bridge building equipment was captured in St Floris. the German assault to the east of St Floris on 27th was to recapture this bridge.
it was held by 2 DLI and RWF until sometime on 27th the accounts regarding the escape of Col Harrison and now Major Townsend was over this bridge.i am not sure about the tank i will keep an open mind on that at the moment.
But if Major Townsend puts RSM Goddard directing traffic over a bridge on 27th it will be the St Floris Bridge of that i am certain.

[Baconwallah]

Tony, the CWGC use the date a man was found to be dead. I have an example of a man missing at Festubert 16/05/1915, with a short note in the file saying "buried by 2 Yorks 15/07/1915. The latter is his official date of death. Before that he was officially missing. Many more examples exist. Remember that in many cases it's guesswork, more than anything else. If you want to be absolutely certain, ask the CWGC how they came by the date. And as for the stretcher bearers, they too were SS men. An SS Regt such as the Germania Regt at St Venant had all supporting services, often more and better than the regular army.

Ivor, the RWF WD specifically mentions a withdrawal from St Floris to St Venant, HQ at the cemetery, and later states that 'the bridge at St Venant was blown. Troops of A and D Coys had to swim the canal."
The capture of St Floris on the 24th is described, but there is no mention of a bridge.

John

[teecee1941]

Additional info;- I have copy of the letter that RSM Goddard wrote on the 25 September 1941 to the International Red Cross. He states.............he was taken prisoner of war together with me on the morning of 27th May 1940 at St Venant near Merville in France..............the German guards odered us to make him comfortable on the canal bank near the village..............at the time the situation in the area was quiet.

I also have most of the very letter that RSM Goddard wrote to my Grandfather, Anthony's father. It is undated but must have been written in 1945 at the end of the war;-

Dear Mr Corkhill,...........on the 27th May 1940 I was captured at St Venant and as I was being moved to the rear(?) I heard your son's voice calling me from the canal bank. I immediately went over to him.......he had a flesh wound to the neck and wounds to both legs.......................the fighting in the area had ceased and there was no apparent danger of him receiving further wounds.

Taken prisoner at St Venant......make him comfortable on the canal bank, near the village.

This making me think.

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> John.
There are a no of things in the diary that don’t match up with what is known. i think the Doc I linked from the RWF Museum could be a better source of info.
As soon as I can I will find the ref to the temporary bridge.
It is highly unlikely that Col Harrison escaped over the St Venant Bridge as that would not put him in the position where we believe he was killed.
The German’s could not have used the St Venant Bridge as that was blown and we have accounts of tanks crossing to the north bank on 27th.
I believe that the name St Venant is used as a general term for the area and does not always refer to the town.
We have several reports that the Bn Hq suffered a direct hit on 27th. It was wiped out so how could it have been withdrawn.
We know that RWF and 2DLI’s had Hq’s some 500yds (east?) from the bridge that the German’s then crossed.
We have reports of a group of 60 men heading for the forest to the north. Not Haveskirque.
And now we have evidence that RSM Goddard was seen by Major Townsend directing traffic across this bridge
John, why there would be no mention of this in the diary I have no idea. But there can be no doubt that this bridge existed and that a lot of men died trying to hold it. And I am absolutely certain that it was not St Venant.

Ivor
Oh, when I was a police officer if a had, had this much evidence on a case I would have been very happy to go to court.

[Baconwallah]

Quoting from the Museum website:

Apart from heavy shelling and the sight of numbers of German tanks and infantry moving across the front, 26 May was uneventful. The Durham Light Infantry took over Saint-Floris, allowing the Battalion to concentrate around Saint-Venant. Having sent the transport over the canal, Lieutenant Colonel Harrison sought permission to withdraw to the north bank, but this was refused, so the Battalion settled down to await the inevitable attack. This started at 8 a.m. on 27 May, and it was soon clear that no weapons were available that could stop the medium tanks of the 3rd Panzer Division. At 9 a.m. the Brigadier ordered the D.L.I. to fall back through the Royal Welch, but they were too closely engaged to extricate themselves. Colonel Harrison therefore ordered all his men who could get clear to double back over the canal bridge which was now under machine-gun fire from both sides. He followed them but was killed shortly after reaching the north bank. At this stage it was found that the engineers waiting to demolish the bridge were no longer there, so that the German tanks were able to cross on the heels of the survivors, killing some and taking others prisoner.

I read this as follows:
- DLI take over St Floris, RWF concentrate at St Venant
- DLI unable to fall back on St Venant
- RWF crosses canal - evidently at St Venant, unless they had gone back to St Floris
- bridge not blown

Assuming your agreement, Ivor, I have sent an email to the authors of the coming vol 5 of the RRRWF, LtGen Riley and LtCol Sinnett, asking for clarification. I hope that we'll be able to put this story to rest after that.

As for the DLI crossing, that may well have been at St Floris. Where is our resident DLI historian? Jim?

John

[ivor43]

john.
i think at his point independent clarification is needed. as i said previously i believe this confusion of bridges has been going on for over 70 yrs. so maybe you were right we may rewrite history.
i look foreward to their conclusions.
whatever the outcome this has been absolutely fascinating.
but it is'nt finished yet .

[Baconwallah]

Fascinating indeed, Ivor! We may even be talking about two bridges, one for the RWF and one for the DLI. Anyway, I hope that with the aid of LtGen Riley and LtCol Sinnett we'll be able to put this to bed for once and for all. I'll keep you informed.

My French friend just now informed me that he is not getting anywhere. The town hall has no papers relevant to the search, the local historian says that he has given up, believing the task to be impossible. Bad news.

John

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> John.
Mon cher ami
At last, admission of a second bridge, thank you, we progress.
Believe me A Co RWF was also at this bridge.
Now I am going to ask you to take a leap of faith.
I fully understand why your friend has given up. But can you try and generate I bit more enthusiasm in him for another quest. or two.

First could he find out why the village to the north has a Rue Du Colonel Harrison.
I think that might be quit enlightening, as I do not think that this sort of thing would be done for no reason, so what did Col Harrison do to deserve this honour. this may not be that difficult.

Second. To see if he can find any evidence of the bridge at St Floris. If, as records show a large force crossed this bridge then I would imagine that they would first concentrate on the south side to prepare for the crossing and assault on Merville which we know they did. also if there was ever a Farm Boulet within that area.

This bridge is said to have been ‘later removed’. But when was it removed, it could have been there for quite a few years.
An instance of a ‘Bailey bridge ‘ being in place for a long time occurred just to the north of TYWYN.(West Wales ) where I now live when in UK. This bridge crossed the Dysynni river close to the railway bridge and connected the Ton Fanau camp with the Morfa camp at Tywyn. I have no doubt that some members of the forum will remember it. I do not know exactly when it as removed. But it is not that long ago.

As i have said before I suspect that Farm Boulet may have effectively ceased to exist around this time. We know the barn was destroyed in this action is it not likely that the house suffered damage also. We are of course fully aware of the Kind, Caring and Considerate nature towards life and property of these advancing S.S.Troops.

I hope your friend will consider this request favourably as I think he may get some useful info, hopefully with a lot less trouble.
I suspect chatting to a few of the older locals over a glass of Wine in a local bar might prove enlightening. Of course he may have to provide some of the wine. But I am sure if need be we can make a contribution.

ivor

[Baconwallah]

Ivor, my friend has not given up. He is looking for other approaches.

As for Ferme Boulet being near the bridge, I must disappoint you. The War Crimes report clearly states that it was on the Rue du Bas Hamel. We can disregards Ferme Boulet. RSM Goddard was nowhere near it, and neither was Anthony Corkhill.

I'll keep you informed of developments, mon cher ami!

John

[Verrieres]

Sorry but whilst not ruling out St Floris as a crossing I remain unconvinced at this time that 2 DLI were there.There are a lot of discrepancies between the diaries of the different units but having read a lot of Regimental and Personal accounts none have mentioned the actions of the 27th May 1940 taking place at St Floris .
The 2 DLI diaries deal in the main with the actions of C and A Companies,Hq Company only get a mention in the later hours,I very much doubt that HQ Company existed as a Company in anything but words. D and B Companies as discovered by George Rodgers, fought under different Prefixes but in reality what did they number?
The Histories are based on eyewitness reports and the Diaries (Accurate or not).Unless there has become available a new source of information I fail to see what any new publication can reveal no matter who the distinguished gentlemen are who compile them. I remain unconvinced.

I am not a `DLI expert` far from it what Ive learnt comes from a lifelong family interest I offered to help Tony with what I could and I think I provided a lot of food for thought as well as a lot of factual evidence and documentation from the period. I could offer him no more that is why he has turned to yourselves,a fresh pair of eyes so to speak who have a lot of RWF knowledge.Hopefully you will get there in the end it would be tremendous if you could...but...and there always is one I have not seen any factual evidence to support it.We must be careful of rewriting History bare in mind the recent Tom Rodgers Plaque erected with the blessing of the Mayor and the various Regimental Associations,that plaque is the map I posted for reference...if the Crossing was at St Floris then unfortunately History has already been re-written as this `Historical` plaque is wrong/misleading.

I don`t think this one would get past the CPS.http://rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin/images/icons/icon12.pngSorry I remain to be convinced

Best Wishes

Jim

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Hi again

Firstly. John.
Sorry, I miss read your post it is good that your friend is still on the trail. But I hope he might find some time to look at the points i raised.

Second. Jim.
Interesting post and again very informative. But, I understand that Tom Rodgers was killed in the fighting, with others, west of St Venant. Our search is for a wounded man left behind by his unit who had either escaped to safety, were captured or dead who was murdered in cold blood by a S.S. thug. To me this is very different.
I recall you saying that the DLI war diaries were lost and what you have were rewritten some time later. Whilst I agree there are discrepancies within them, which I suppose is to be expected, there is ample evidence to prove that D Co 2DLI , or what was left of it were at St Floris together with A Co RWF.
This is recorded in the RWF Diary and is confirmed in the post by jungle. It is further confirmed by Major Townsend.
As I said before this action can not have taken place at St Venant as we have evidence that the bridge there was blown. As some of RWF had to swim across the canal. This action can only have taken place at this 2nd bridge which evidence seems to indicate was at St Floris.
We know this action took place from early on 27th, both from Major Townsend and from RSM Goddard’s letter.
We also know that at some time on 27th tanks crossed to the north bank.
Jim. I can assure you i have been thinking very hard about this for quite some time but which ever way I look at what is known I can not escape the conclusion that this action could not have taken place in St Venant.

With regard to rewriting the history of this action I do not know what was done with regard the Tom Rogers investigation and I do not think it would be relevant to what we are doing.
I have been convinced for quite some time that I know where this shooting took place. But that is not sufficient, you, teecee, john and everyone else involved would have to agree also. We can not take this anywhere until we are all in agreement.
However I have a very uneasy feeling that what we are doing is the easy part. But we will solve this, and if our findings do not quite fit the ideas of others. I have one word for them. Tough.

ivor

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Good Morning all.
Not a bad morning here in West Wales, well it is not raining at the moment.
It has been suggested that my concluding sentence in my last post was a bit harsh. I apologise for that. But it was not meant to be. What we are doing is totally different to what has been done previous. The previous investigation seems to have been principally involved with the western action. We have been looking at the whole picture. If as a result we find, for example, unit positions to be different from the previous investigation, then what are we to do? Say nothing and allow another error to become history. I am sorry guy’s but if we are to find teecee’s uncle then we will have to make ALL the relevant facts known to certain authorities and I can not see any way this will not become public. I am sorry but if our findings are inconvenient to others…..

Do not get me wrong I fully respect the work done in the Tom Rogers Investigation it is just that I am a bit uneasy with some of its conclusions in the light of what we have been doing.


OK I am about to ask a couple of favors

First. John,
We have a report that Col Harrison escaped over the second bridge but was killed
Some time later not 15 min or an hour but some time later. A puzzle.
We have a village on the Merville Rd that has a road named after Col Harrison. Another puzzle.

We have a tank crossing the bridge and heading towards Haveskirque which is taken out by a 18 lb’er. Now this is not just a puzzle this is, well I don’t really know.

I imagined the scene north of the Lys to be total chaos. Men, Machinery and everything else all over the area.

But someone has the presence of mind and the authority, to commander an 18lb’er and who knows what else, take out this tank and maybe set up a defense of this village, until he was killed.

Could this be the reason why Col Harrison is honored by the village. John, when I asked before I just thought it could be interesting. Now I think it could be of greater significance than we had possibly realized.

Whatever occurred here was obviously important to the village. So if there is an account of this action then it might indicate which bridge the tank came over. I think this needs to be looked at.

Now for my second favor.

Jungle and Bob Lake I am asking you guy’s because you are contributing good info but not, like some of us ,up to our necks in muck and bullets.
Would you both consider Google Earthing the field which I believe contains tank tracks.
It is on the north side of the Lys just to the east of St Floris directly across from the Rue De Motte Baudet.

I would like your opinion.


ivor

[jungle1810]

Hello Vori,
I am sending the details of Col Harrison's death from the W W 2 Royal Welch Casualties book. Harrison Lt/Col Herbert Berkeley M.C. 1st battalion RWF 27th May 1940 age 43. Son of Brigadier -General Robert Arthur Gwynne Harrison C.M.G. three times Mentioned in Despatches and Alice Harrison of King's Worthy Hampshire husband of of Jeanette Marion Harrison of Denbigh interred at Haverskerque British Cemetery (Nord) Row E E Grave 1
I have seen a photo of a village street named after Col Harrison but I am unable to find it, I have a photo of PLACE DE ROYAL WELCH FUSILIERS 4th and 6th battalions and I am stood by this street name. I tried to post it on the forum but I need to change the format to JPG. I will work on it. I will post more info from the ORBAT of the 27th of May
Regards RBD akajungle1810.

[jungle1810]

Hello Vori,
Continuation from my last thread from the Red Dragon by lt/Commander Kemp and John Graves
After the death of 2nd n L/t Garnet it reports that "C" Company was held up on the western edge of St Floris by strong and accurate Machine gun fire from the enemy positions on the Bourne Canal. In an attempt to dislodge them LT/Col Harrison sent "B" Company round the left flank of "C" Company. They came up against an enemy platoon which they had little difficulty in dis lodging and reached their objective, 'though with the 3 platoons some what strung out through lack of maps and out of touch of each other.The story of "D" Company was less happy. Again through lack of maps of the area, they were ambushed in the dark and had suffered heavy casualties, including Lt R L Boyle , the Company Commander. Lacking good information on their fate and or the whereabouts at battalion HQ the Company Commanding officer sent Major Owen to discover what was happening. After a long search he found the remnants of Company withdrawing from the scene of the ambush and led them back to CALONNE.
By now darkness had fallen any further attempt to advance towards the four bridges across unknown country seemed useless. Since little was know of the enemies strength or dispositions LT/ Col Harrison decided to concentrate what was left of the Battalion at SAINT FLORIS for the night and the four Companies were brought back to form a defensive "BOX" around the village. Active patrolling was carried out throughout the night and those who could were ordered to get as much rest as they could in view of the heavy fighting expected the next day. As dawn broke on the 25th of May he battalion advanced once again towards their objectives, the four bridges across the LA BASSEE CANAL "A"and "C" Companies on the right made good progress brushing aside the slight opposition they met on the way .They reached the small town of ST VENANT, found it to be clear of the enemy and proceeded to the bridge was their objective.They were held up by heavy machine gun and mortar fire about half a mile beyond the town and because of the flat and openness of the country were unable to work their way around thee enemyies position . Unable to advance, they dug themselves in.
To be continued until the 27th of May (Tea time )
Regards RBD aka jungle1810

[jungle1810]

Hello Vori et al,
Continuation of the ORBAT of the 1st Battalion RWF
"B" Company on the left were even less fortunate. Their route led through the village of ROBECQ to the remaining three bridges beyond. Almost at once they ran into strong opposition but under cover of supporting fire from their own weapons managed at last to reach the village. Here they were pinned down by intense machine gun fire from the road beyond. but worse still was to follow. In order to hang on to the gains already made, Captain Captain J R Johnson at once began to fortify the village only to discover parties of the enemy working round both flanks. All attempts to check them failed , and by mid -afternoon "B" Company was effectively surrounded the enemy digging a line of weapon pits across the return route to ST FLORIS.By noon, then,the battalion was in a bad way " A" and "C" Companies unable to make any progress towards their final objectives and finding their position in the open untenable in the face of growing machine gun and mortar fire, began to withdraw in small parties. The original intention had been to retire on ST VENANT and to form a strong defence line on the outskirts of the town, but many of the parties mistook their orders and in fact withdrew to ST FLORIS, from where they had started in the morning. Both Companies suffered very heavy casualties and although most of the wounded were successfully evacuated some had to be left behind in ST VENANT where they were placed in the care of the nuns in the local hospital
In the meantime Col Harrison had brought Battalion HQ up to the out skirts of ST VENANT only to discover that the remnants of "A" and "C" Companies had passed through the town on their way back and were now at ST FLORIS. Col Harrison sent the indefatigable Major Owen back to bring them up again and placed the re-organisation of H Q and "D" in the hands of of Captain Willes, who had returned from a recce towards ROBECQ in a fruitless attempt to make contact with "B" Company. With the few men still available ,the C/O organised a new defence line covering ST VENANT and the bridge across the BOURNE Canal, and as the various Companies arrived they were placed in the new line. All four Companies were up "A" on the right then "C" "D" and HQ. The left flank was known to be open, but it was thought that the 1st Battalion the Royal Berkshire Regiment were holding the area to the right. In the absence of any maps how ever, it was impossible to know exactly where they were. There was nothing left for the depleted Battalion to do but dig in and await the enemy attack which all knew was coming Attempts to establish communication with "B" Company were still fruitless and the lack of knowledge of what was happening at ROBECQ was a depressing factor. In point of fact "B" Company was approaching the end of it's battle . Casualties had increased throughout the day necessitating a continually contracting perimeter. In the evening Capt Johnson was seriously wounded and the command of the Company devolved 2LT F M Edwards. With considerable skill and tenacity he continued to organise the defence through the night, inflicting considerable casualties on the enemy when ever the opportunity occurred but the end was in sight. In the early hours of the morning the Germans put in an attack supported BY ONE TANK. It was held and driven back. An hour later a second attack with three tanks in support was put in. Slowly "B" Company gave ground, but the enemy dominated the flat ground round the village offered no chance of an organised break out. Calling the Company together for the last time. 2nd Lt Edwards split it up into two groups each under the command of an N.CO. or a senior soldier. he showed the groups the general direction in which the Battalion lines lay and ordered them to lie up for the rest of the day and to try to make their own way back individually under the cover of darkness. At 11 A M "B" Company as a Company ceased to exist
To be continued
Regards RBD aka jungle1810

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Evening.

Brian.Thanks for the info. The stuff on Col Harrison is very interesting. La Rue Du Colonel Harrison is at the western end of the village of, I think it was La Crbie or something like that which is situated on the Haveskirque to Merville Rd a couple of miles to the east of Haveskirque. If Johns friend would check this out for us it might prove very interesting.

teecee, jim.on a slightly different aspect of this, something i wrote on an earlier post 'if this goes public' if we are successful have you given any thought to what sort of publicity this is going to generate. this is a young man, wounded. murdered by the S.S. give it some thought.

ivor

[Baconwallah]

Ivor, mon cher ami, I have received the following info from France:

Due to the importance of the Route Nationale No.16 (Amiens to Dunkirk) the French army had built two new bridges alongside the old and narrow (2.5 m) drawbridges at l'Epinette (Canal d'Aire) and St Venant (Canal de la Lys). These new bridges were of the type known as Pigeau No.3. The bridge at l'Epinette, a metal construction, was completed in March 1940; the one at Saint-Venant, built of wood, was completed on 6th April. The bridge at Saint-Venant was 160 (159.5 to be precise) metres long.

Dispositions on 25th May:

Following the unsuccessful attempt by A and C Companies to reach the bridge at l'Epinette, LtCol HARRISON spread out his troops to defend Saint-Venant. A, C and D Companies and the headquarters were to hold the area between the Robecq and the Busnes roads, together with the Ringot road. This was just a short distance from Saint-Venant. B Company had been cut off in Robecq. A Company had only 2 platoons of 15 men each. There were no AT weapons or radios.

At approx 2200 hrs the DLI arrived from St Floris. A, B and C companies took up their positions in the free area from Les Amusoires to the Robecq road. D Company was sent to fill the breach between the right flank of the RWF and the 1st Royal Berks at Bas-Hamel. LtCol SIMPSON who was commanding the battalion set up his command post in the Taverne family home at the intersection of the Les Amusoires road and the Canal de la Lys dyke.

Situation on 26 May:

In the afternoon LtCol HARRISON withdrew his HQ to the Saint-Venant cemetery, close to the DLI HQ at the Taverne farm. The DLI were still positioned between the Robecq and les Amusoires roads. The defensive system was now focused around Saint-Venant but there were still a few gaps in the line, where the junction between D Company DLI and the RWF had not been established. Saint-Floris was no longer protected as 2/5th West Yorks had been withdrawn to Calonne-sur-la-Lys for transfer to the Fôret de Nieppe. Calonne was held by the 4th Brigade, and in the evening 70 men of the French 401st Pioneer Regiment were sent to Cornet-Malo in an attempt to fill the gap.

Meanwhile 3rd Panzer Division was preparing for the attack. The right-hand group was to advance on Merville and Bailleul. The objective of the left-hand group was Saint-Venant. It included the 2nd Battalion of the 3rd Infantry Regiment, the 2nd Battalion of the 7th Machine-gun Regiment, the 2nd Battery of the 75th Artillery Regiment and the 1st Battalion of the 5th Pioneer Regiment.The 1st Battalion of the 3rd Infantry Regiment were in reserve at Robecq. Elements of the SS Germania Regiment were also attached to this group.

The attack of 27th May:

At 0800 hours the German artillery engaged the British lines and Saint-Venant. The British furiously defended themselves but their artillery support was limited. A, C and D Companies RWF were forced to withdraw as enemy tanks had now joined the battle and they were outgunned. Both platoons of A Company withdrew towards the canal. D Company was surrounded and had to surrender.

While the German infantry infiltrated into Saint-Venant, tanks pierced the defence of the DLI along the railway and made their way along Rue des Amusoires to the canal. The DLI HQ in the Taverne farmhouse was shelled. RSM Goddard attempted to evacuate the HQ transport, but without success. Durhams holding out in the café on the crossroads of Rue des Amusoires and Rue de Saint-Floris were cut off and had to surrender. The remainiing Durhams crawled along the canal to the bridge in order to reach Haverskerque. They were very quickly hit by mortar fire and suffered casualties.

At about 1100 hours Brigadier Furlong’s order to withdraw finally reached the battalion HQ of the RWF, which was still positioned in the town’s cemetery. Capt TOWNSEND crawled from DLI HQ to LtCol HARRISON at the cemetery to receive the message and pass it to LtCol SIMPSON, who was in a trench near his HQ. Two tanks appeared on the intersection of Rue des Amusoires and the canal dyke. LtCol SIMPSON, armed only with a revolver, had to surrender.

LtCol HARRISON now knew that he would be the last man to leave the battlefield, together with the handful of men he had left. He sent Major OWEN to defend the bridge and cover the withdrawal of the DLI. The Durhams crawled slowly towards the bridge they wanted to cross; some were hit, others managed to jump into the river and swim across. Captain TOWNSEND was one of the last to set off for Haverskerque.

Maj OWEN together with around thirty men managed somehow to reach the other side of the river. Faced with a situation which was deteriorating with each passing minute, LtCol HARRISON ordered Capt CLOUGH TAYLOR to send the rest of the battalion to the opposite bank in small groups of two or three. LtCol HARRISON and Capt CLOUGH TAYLOR were the last two to risk it on the bridge. As they were crossing it, the Captain suffered leg wounds whilst the Commanding Officer managed to make it across. He waited until his companion was totally out of harm’s way before giving the order to blow the wooden bridge; the drawbridge had already been partially destroyed. Unfortunately, the engineers charged with this task did not respond. As LtCol HARRISON was withdrawing towards Haverskerque the first enemy tank appeared; its machine-gun targeted the brave LtCol and he fell under its murderous fire.

The German infantry, supported by tanks, now advanced to within 300 metres of Haverskerque, overrunning the RWF Aid Post and capturing Maj OWEN, Lt LUNDIE (the RWF MO) and 23 men. A British counter-attack with some carriers to recapture the bridge did not succeed. The British then withdrew to a new position at Le Touquet, where they found 2/5th West Yorks, 99th Field Regt RA and 6th Bde HQ. This small force was joined by survivors of 1st Berks and 2nd DLI. The power of the German tanks and artillery finally forced the British to withdraw to the Forêt de Nieppe and to try and reach Dunkirk.

So there you have the full story. It explains why the RWF memorial is located at the spot where the wooden bridge was, and nowhere else.

John

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> OK Guys.
Jungle, John. What you have posted is fantastic and on the face of it overwhelming evidence that I am wrong.
But I am sorry, no white flag yet guy’s. not while I still have some ammo. If I am going down I sure as hell am going down fighting.

Right, From your own accounts the only resistance encountered when the RWF were approaching ST Venant was at St Floris. Which was easily overcome. Why.
From the RWF Diary, Bridging material was captured at St Floris. exactly where?. And why was it here when there were two bridges in St Venant.?
was this slight opposition actually a small number of troops guarding this material?
When RWF got to St Venant they found it unoccupied. Again why? It has 2 relatively new bridges.
Conclusion. they were not interested in St Venant or is bridges . Not Suitable.
Reasoning. What was the average weight of a motor lorry in 1940, about 6 – 10 tons. So even if the bridges were stressed to 15 tons they would not be suitable for 20+ ton tanks.
But why bother when you have your own purpose built bridges with you.

What follow is pure speculation from the view of the German bridge unit commander.….. or is it.

There is a gap opened up in the line of the retreating British around the town of St Venant. We have been ordered foreword to prepare for the crossing of the Bourne canal prior to our strike towards Merville.
I have a few days as the nearest British units are some distance to the east apparently resting after there battle at the Dyle.
My engineers and I have surveyed the bridges at St Venant and we do not believe them suitable for our purpose. So we will use one or two of our own.
Having surveyed the surrounding area it is not practical to place our bridge near the other bridges as there are too many buildings around to allow for a holding/regrouping area. Also there is a cemetery in the way.
Surveying the canal bank we can find no suitably solid place before we get to the east of ST Floris. Where there is already a road in place which connects to the main road. Useful.
Also it is in an open area. so there is a farm to the east. No real problem
OK we have the main part of the bridge across but as it is late we will finish it tomorrow and start on the second.
I have posted guards on the equipment and my engineers and i are going to sample the delights of Haveskirque for he night. I do not expect our troops for another day or so.
When returning to the bridge the next morning .WHAT!!! Ambush.. we are under attack from the British… Where did they come from. The end.

OK back to reality. Fantasy, imaginative yes. But based on known facts. If The RWF etc had not been moved toward this gap, earlier than planned I believe that the Germans may well have been in this area in strength. With a suitable bridge.

John. I would still like to know the story behind the Rue Du Colonel Harrison.


Ivor

[Baconwallah]

The German units N of the Canal de l'Aire were an advance guard of SS Verfügungsdivision and 3 Pz which had broken through the French resistance along the Canal de l'Aire on the 24th. One part of this advance guard crossed the St Venant bridge and advanced to Haverskerque but was thrown back by B Coy 6th KORR. Another part (the so called Russow patrol) followed the canal along the N bank, was cut off near Merville and destroyed in the next two days. The bridging element, very likely intended for the attack on Merville and trying the canal route because there were British units in Calonne, ran into 1 RWF at St Floris. Subsequently all German units were pulled back to the Canal de l'Aire for regrouping as the result of Hitler's 'Halt order'. Quote from the report of Standartenführer Demelhuber (CO SS Inf Regt 'Germania'): "Next day unexpected div. order (supposed to have come right from the top) about withdrawal of bridgehead north of canal and setting-up of main line of battle along canal. No reconnaissance or patrols north of canal. Withdrawal of II Bn Inf Regt 'Germania' and remaining sections behind LA BASSEE CANAL."

The old drawbridges had a 7 ton limit. The new Pigeau bridges built by the French engineers were specifically intended to make the Route Nationale No.16 suitable for the amount of traffic to be expected in the war. They could - and did - take tanks with ease.

As for the final stand of RWF and DLI taking place near another bridge than the one at St Venant: let's make this a little tac exercise, Ivor.

You have your HQ in the St Venant cemetery (I think we're agreed on that, as all eyewitnesses are; there is no other cemetery until you come to Merville, anyway) and have to withdraw across the canal. Behind you is a bridge, about 450 yards away, the perimeter of which is still held by your men. In front of you is supposedly another bridge, some 3000 yards away, with enemy tanks and unknown numbers of infantry at the junction you'll have to cross to get there. Which way do you go?

The Rue du Col Harrison I am told received its name as the commune had an as yet nameless road and wished to honour a local hero. No more, no less. Remember that there are more towns with Churchill Avenues and Churchill Squares in NW Europe than the good man ever visited or even knew existed.

John

[ivor43]

john
i will answer your challenge shortly but i came across this. interesting reading
http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=22877

ivor

[Baconwallah]

Thanks for the link, Ivor. Apart from the large number of tanks repeatedly mentioned in the text, which in fact consisted of some light French R35 3-man tanks without radio, it confirms what I wrote below.

John

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> OK. John.
Interesting challenge.

The initial reaction is simple, cross the bridge. But there Is some evidence that this did not happen. Because of the fluidity of the situation, the idea suggested by Bob has a lot of merit.
If Brigade had formed a Tac Hq and the 2 Colonels and their relevant staff officers into an O Group then they could have been anywhere inside the defensive perimeter.
But if Col Harrison was at the HQ in the cemetery how do we explain the entry in the RWF Diary on 27th that states that HQ took a direct hit no further contact etc. there is, as far as I am aware, no info that the cemetery was hit. This is a very annoying point that keeps cropping up.
There seems only one inescapable conclusion. The Col’s were not at the cemetery. There seems to be no info that they were anywhere to the west although they may have been at some time I suppose if they were mobile. But even if the HQ was to the west the next bridge is almost at Haveskirque. So that really doesn’t fit.
John, for quite some time now I have been thinking very, very hard about this to see if I have got it wrong, but whatever info you guys throw at me, and I admit it is hard to stand against it. But I am still convinced that there was a bridge east of St ,.that Col Harrison and others escaped over. that was not blown because the engineers had gone and, was crossed by a tank that took out the machine gun. And then headed towards the Haveskirque Rd to be taken out by an 18lb’er.

This is why I would like to know why a colonel who has just lost virtually his entire command suddenly appears as a local hero at a village that was not even part of the action at the time.

What i find totally puzzling about this whole incident is it's complete lack of recording anywhere.in official RWF records. Unless of course the people at the cemetery believing everyone at the forward HQ were missing or killed were, with no communication, not even aware that it was happening and anyone who would have been responsible for reporting it later were dead or POW's




Ivor.

[Baconwallah]

From the 1 RWF WD:

"28 Poss 27 0600 - Bn HQ Suffered a direct hit from arty fire. No further contact was made with Bn HQ. The following officers were reported missing as a result of this action. - Commanding Officer (Lt-Col Harrison), 2i/c (Maj D I Owens), Adjutant (Capt Hood), IO (Capt Willes), MO, Padre and RSM (Mr Sheriff). The following officers are known to have been taken prisoner- 2i/c, Padre, IO, RSM"

This was written several days after the events by a junior company officer (there were no senior officers left) who was uninformed and confused as to the date and the whereabouts of the MO at the very least - the MO was not at HQ, he was at his Aid Post across the canal, in a farmhouse on the road to Haverskerque. The unknown author also says "the bridge was blown" which it wasn't, it had been mined but was not blown as the engineers had disappeared. Harrison and Owen weren't missing, they crossed the wooden Pigeau bridge, and Owen, who survived, testified about it after the war.

Ivor, dear friend, I greatly admire the way in which you have spun your perceived 72 year old tank tracks in a boggy field into a complete story, including a German patrol commander who leaves his equipment to go on a pub crawl in enemy occupied Haverskerque - a brilliant touch that! I'd gladly nominate you for the Booker prize. But - and it pains me to say this - I haven't seen one single shred of hard documentary evidence, no after action reports of either side actually mentioning a bridge at St-Floris, Cornet-Malo or anywhere in between, no relevant interviews of local witnesses by French historians which support your theory, nothing. It's all 'what if', 'yes but', 'suppose that' and wishful thinking. The Germans have a word for it: 'hineininterpretieren'. So let's move on.

John

[Verrieres]

Just steering this back to Anthony Corkhill I have been in contact with Tony who has added there may be a possibility that Pte Corkhill was a Company dispatch rider...
There is documentation to say a temp Hospital was set up at the Home of.......Madam Boulet...is this Ferme Boulet or is there another Family Boulet near to the bridge?

Best Wishes

Jim

[jungle1810]

Hello all,
Baconwallah seems to have the situation right. There are some small differences in his report than are quoted in the RED DRAGON. The Village where my photo was taken of RUE DE LA ROYAL WELCH FUSILIERS was taken in a village named GAVRUS near CAEN and it concerns the fighting to regain the area by the 4th and 6th RWF in the period towards the end of the war. I think that GAVRUS may well be the site of COl Harrison's Street name. I also see that a Capt J E T Willes and Capt "Jimmy Johnson mentioned To the best of my knowledge both of these officers were taken P O W. But Capt J E T Willes became Col of the Regiment from the 18th of October 1965 to the 3rd of March 1974. Col "Jimmy Johnson who I believe to be the Capt Johnson mentioned in the RED DRAGON was our C/O when we left for our tour of the Caribbean in March 1951.I have a photo of the RWF men who were in action with the 1st at this time (May 1940) and R S M Sheriff is on it. So I thought it best not to repeat the work of Baconwallah, there are some minor differences but this is inevitable after such a long time. On this subject it is such a pity that this most important volume has been left so late to compile but Col Sinnett and al his helpers are doing a magnificent job, more power to their elbows.
Regards RBD

[Baconwallah]

Verrieres, right you are. We were forgetting what this is all about.

My opinion: whether Pte Corkhill was a despatch rider or not is beside the point. I can only reiterate what I have said before: he was seen wounded and made comfortable on the canal bank by RSM Goddard [documented]. RSM Goddard was in the HQ area near the Taverne house on the junction of Rue des Amusoires and the canal dyke and tow-path [documented]. So we have a time and a place Pte Corkhill was last seen. What he was doing before he was wounded does not in any way influence the situation as described. Besides, I doubt if there was any call for despatch riders in a cramped area swept by fire from all sides.

Also please bear in mind that a functioning Aid Post or temp hospital, at the time when the RSM and other survivors were being sent to the rear as PoWs, is more than unlikely. And again, he was described by the RSM as 'on the canal bank'. Not 'in or on the way to the temp hospital'. Whatever the Germans did afterwards, murder him or take him to the hospital, or both, is pure conjecture. That is what we have to discover.

Jungle Don, thanks for the vote of confidence. Your went into considerably more detail than I did, but the stories are otherwise the same.

John

[ivor43]

jungle la rue du col harroson ls at the western edge la corbie on the merville rd it is shown on google earth
ivor

[Bob Lake]

I attach a contemporary drawing of the RWF final stand at St Venant on 27 May1940 drawn by Lt WSA Clough Taylor whilst a POW. It was featured on the 1998 Cover of The Regimental Magazine and shows much of the final action we have been discussing. From memory of chats with the IO at the time, Capt Jack Willes, he described it as a very accurate picture of events and shows German Tanks at the Cemetary entrance firing at escaping RWF personnel on what I understood was a temporary bridge leading to one side of the Lock Keepers Cottage. This was the bridge that Col Harrison crossed and in all probability the action where Pte Corkhiil was wounded. Col Harrison is buried in the War Grave Commission Cemetary at at Havervesque and the Rue was in all probability to commemorate that fact that he died there.

The Regimental Memorial lies directly opposite the lock keepers cottage and was chosen because of its proximity to this final action. One thought I have is that there is a dead cow and a manger in the drawing and the corner of a building at the bottom left of the picture, is this the mysterious Ferme Boulet, I don't think there is a building there today whilst the Lock Keepers Cottage most certainly is.

2851

[teecee1941]

I attach a contemporary drawing of the RWF final stand at St Venant on 27 May1940 drawn by Lt WSA Clough Taylor whilst a POW. It was featured on the 1998 Cover of The Regimental Magazine and shows much of the final action we have been discussing. From memory of chats with the IO at the time, Capt Jack Willes, he described it as a very accurate picture of events and shows German Tanks at the Cemetary entrance firing at escaping RWF personnel on what I understood was a temporary bridge leading to one side of the Lock Keepers Cottage. This was the bridge that Col Harrison crossed and in all probability the action where Pte Corkhiil was wounded. Col Harrison is buried in the War Grave Commission Cemetary at at Havervesque and the Rue was in all probability to commemorate that fact that he died there.

The Regimental Memorial lies directly opposite the lock keepers cottage and was chosen because of its proximity to this final action. One thought I have is that there is a dead cow and a manger in the drawing and the corner of a building at the bottom left of the picture, is this the mysterious Ferme Boulet, I don't think there is a building there today whilst the Lock Keepers Cottage most certainly is.

2851

[jungle1810]

Hello all,
The photos of the Rue De La Royal Welch Fusiliers were taken when the comrades from about six different branches commemorated the 70th anniversary of the 1st battalion's retreat to Dunkirk in the 40's. We also met Col Harrisons daughter and laid a wreath of poppies on the Colonel's grave.
regards RBD a k a jungle 1810

[teecee1941]

Hello Bob,
Many thanks for this excellent contribution. I don't know for sure how much value to put on this sketch but really, there is no reason to doubt it's merit. It should be safe to assume that the artist drew the sketch from memory having been to that site sometime in the past. I would think if he was a POW, then the details were still reasonably fresh in his mind.

There is no doubt that this sketch shows a bridge over the canal leading to a farm. One of the buildings has been set on fire. I can see what looks like a dead cow and what I would describe as a harrow or a roller, definitely some sort of farm implement. There seems to be an ambulance and people having their wounds tended. Over on the right hand bank, I can see what looks very much like a cemetery.

Could this be a temporary bridge of sorts and lying next to it we can see what looks like a more permanent structure waiting to be hauled into place alongside.

I am keen to hear what others think of this sketch.

[Verrieres]

I would rather keep an open mind on the Despatch Rider aspect as he could have been with either company when he was wounded but I take your point rgarding sticking to facts. Which brings me to the piece about RSM Goddard making him comfortable on the canal bank there is some discrepencie in the RSMs letter to the Red Cross and the one sent to the family..the sentence `I heard your son calling me from the canal bank`is featured in one, is this as the RSM was being marched away? the Germans were certainly present at the time,they had to be for the RSM to ask them if they could take Anthony with them?
The hospital was not a German hospital if was a British hospital which was set up to receive the first wounded



As the tanks arrived the sense of panic amongst the Tommies was heightened and they ran along the road leading from the Canal de la Lys; there was renewed carnage.The British set up a hospital in Madame Boulet’s house. This was situated at the crossroads on the Hurtevent and Bas Hamel roads. (Looking at Google its still there)The first casualties were taken there; before long about twenty sick and wounded were cared for in this house.


I know its all down to the detail but as Ivor pointed out if we can find the answer and Tony goes to the authorities with his findings then he has to be able to show all avenues have been covered .He needs the answers because if we know this you can bet your life the authorities will know more.An example is for whatever reason Anthony was known to be dead by the 29th May 1940 despite any Red Cross Enquiry/letter some two to three years later,he was struck off strength on the 29th May 1940.(Fact) He never featured in the extensive search for `2DLI` missing men he was simply listed as `DEAD`...how were they so sure?

Best Wishes

Jim

[Baconwallah]

The drawing no doubt represents the narrow bridge over the lock gates, as shown (from another direction) in the photo. The lock keeper's house is still there. RWF memorial to the right.

Past the lock the road continued across the lock island to Haverskerque. To the left was the large Pigeau bridge, now replaced by the modern road bridge of the D818 which crosses the Lys between the lock and the cemetery. It looks like the Pigeau bridge was the point from where the little bridge in tyhe drawing was depicted.

The Boulet house, like the Boulet farm, was in the area in which D coy 2 DLI had been cut off by German troops (6th Coy, 3 Inf Regt, I believe) which had infiltrated to the canal on the western side of Saint-Venant. No way RSM Goddard could have seen Anthony there.

John

2852

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Hi all.
Brilliant stuff Bob, but I suspect that the painting shows the locks at the head of the Aire canal. Which starts close to the bridge at St Venant. I believe this is too narrow for the Lys.
If my memory serves me correctly and i will check as soon as i can but i seem to recall the Aire, then what may have been an island then the Lys.
as i am working through my mobile phone i do not have full access.But is someone could check this for me i would appreciate
it.
john. when you said earlier that there were 2 bridges a metal one and a wooden one did you mean the metal one was over the Aire and the wooden one over the Lys.the main Rd passing over both.



ivor

[Baconwallah]

The wooden bridge was over the Lys, Ivor. The metal one was over the Aire canal at l'Epinette, 4 km from St Venant. The Aire canal is much wider and sadly lacks a cemetery, which complicates your identification. There also was no RWF crossing of the Aire canal under fire. B Coy came closest to the canal, but never reached it.

You are correct where the little island is concerned. On the southern side is the Lys canal and the lock, on the northern side the old bed of the Lys, wider and with a weir. My photo looks at the island and the lock keeper´s house from the south. Check Google Street View when you're back behind your computer, and you'll see what I mean.

John

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Morning all
Another grey, wet and windy day in West Wales. Have been back from Malta 2 weeks and I think we need a short holiday. Caravans are fine if you have good weather. Am thinking of 3or 4 days in northern France visiting Dunkirk and some other interesting places not far away, hmm I wonder where. but I will have to persuade ‘her indoors’. watch this space.
The last few days I have been reflecting on what we have achieved, sadly not very much. Tony has not got much further with his quest.
However from the outset I knew this would be very difficult, not only from stories about what my father went through, but also from books that I read as a youth eg ‘Scourge of the Swastika’ ,’a judgement at Nuremburg’ and many other personal accounts, from authors like Leonard Cheshire. VC. And Richard Hillary.( The Last Enemy).so I was fully aware what I was getting into.
But, despite our apparent lack of progress I have been amazed at the amount of info that we have uncovered. But I am, in a way, somewhat uneasy about some of it. Apart from the Diary of Major Townsend and the RWF Diary. Every thing else seems to have been written some time later, so, to me at least, raises some doubt as to accuracy and completeness.
I have a few more ideas to try and progress this, ok not more tank tracks. But I’m not quite ready to concede the east yet there is still some digging to do there and i..will.. get the answers.

The truth is out there somewhere.

ivor

[Baconwallah]

Don't be too optimistic about the RWF WD, Ivor. The only survivors of the Bn to reach Dunkirk and write in the WD were two 2nd Lts, the QM and eighty other ranks. None of them with a good idea of what happened, none of them experienced in writing a WD. i expect the situation for the Durhams was much the same.

John

[Baconwallah]

Later this week I hope to have the account of the campaign written by the captured RWF officers (while still PoWs). That should answer a lot of questions.

John

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Good morning all.
First I have to apologise. My identification of the canal as the Aire was wrong the Aire is a much wider canal and much further west. Sorry.
Would I be right in thinking that the artist is on the island looking east and the tanks are approaching from the St Floris direction. and are just passing the cemetery. Interesting.

Guy’s if I had’nt been out with friends for a meal, Beef Madras Curry and a couple of large glasses of a quite reasonable ,for UK, red wine I think I might be banging my head against a suitable wall.
Will someone please tell me what we can trust. virtually everything we have here has been written some time later. days, months, while a P.O.W. or maybe even years later. The only thing that seems to be a fairly on the spot account is the diary of Major Townsend
Having been a Police Officer, I know when you have been dealing with an ugly situation, if you do not write it up straight away, once the adrenalin rush is gone it is very easy to omit details. The guy’s in this situation would have been so intent in getting away that they may not even have been aware of who or what was going on about them, this was ever man for himself. So any account written days later has to be suspect.
So where do we go from here. John your reports from the P.O.W’s may give a clue, I don’t know. But I think we will have to start some ‘ Lateral Thinking’.
The German Military History site I linked the other day is no longer active. So do we have any other possible avenues to that side.
The only other thing that I know of that occurred at the time that seems to be unexplained is what did Col Harrison ,if it is our Colonel. Do to merit having a Road named after him.
I know I have raised this before but I can find nothing on the web. But I think we need to try to find something, anything, outside the records that could point us in the right direction.

It’s thinking time


ivor

[Baconwallah]

Ivor, you have discovered the essence of writing history. It's not unlike your old profession (or mine). Weight of evidence is what matters. But please bear in mind that a very late source written by a competent researcher is always more reliable than an early (even eyewitness) source by someone unable to grasp the larger picture or deliberately trying to mislead or just plain stupid. And that is why historians are needed to sift and weigh the evidence.

Your German mil hist site was a site run by American admirers of the SS who could not tell the difference between tanks and carriers. Their historical summaries were mainly based on publications by former SS members and their fan club, not an entirely reliable source I should think. I have yet to see the first post-war interview with a former SS man in which the shooting of PoWs was admitted. "Ït coudn't have happened in my unit, we were all gentlemen" was the usual reply. See the German interviews in the St Venant War Crimes investigation.

As you so rightly ask, where do we go from here? I can only reiterate what I have said before. As the Ferme Boulet area had been cut off from the main position by two separate German columns which had reached the canal W of St Venant, any reference to the Boulet family properties can be discounted as not relevant to our inquiry. Where we should look is the area of the last stand of the DLI along the canal between the Taverne house at the junction of Rue des Amusoires and the canal dyke on the E side and the cemetery on the W side. That is where the RSM was, that is were he last saw Pte Corkhill and made him comfortable. Anything else only confuses the issue.

We should look for a 1942 description of the field graves in that area. There is one (in our possession) for the Rue d'Aire - Bas-Hamel area, there is probably also one in existence for the canal bank E of St Venant - if only we could find it. That should provide the necessary clues.

John

[Baconwallah]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->Would I be right in thinking that the artist is on the island looking east and the tanks are approaching from the St Floris direction. and are just passing the cemetery.
ivor

You would be approximately right, Ivor. The viewpoint is rather high, which makes me think that the artist was standing on the wooden Pigeau bridge instead of on the bank of the island.

Here again we have a nice example of the pitfalls that endanger the path of us historians. The artist must have seen the quays of the lock from where he was standing, but did not draw them. What he did draw was the cemetery, with the tanks approaching from the Rue des Amusoires - canal dyke junction, but the cemetery looks a lot closer to the bridge than it actually was. Fortunately the location can be pinpointed witht he aid of the lock keeper's house, which hasn't changed a bit in the past 72 years.

John

[ivor43]

john.
i thought the Mil Hist site was odd, but at the moment we have to explore all options regardless.
With regard to the picture i thought the lack of quays was odd.
But i wonder, perhaps we are misjudging him.the traffic on the canal was probably a lot smaller than the barges of today, maybe more like the working boats that we had on ours,somewhat wider than the our modern Narrow Boats. and what we see today is a post war widening and lengthening of the lock to accommodate the modern barges.Were the quays in 1940 further west, behind the artist?
shortly i am going to post the first of 2 'lateral thinking' efforts they may be useful.

ivor

[Baconwallah]

Were the quays in 1940 further west, behind the artist?

ivor

They weren't, Ivor. It just shows you how selective memory can be. The lock itself was of no importance, but the canal was, and that is what the artist remembered.

John

[ivor43]

john
my ext post will explain this

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/8709/labassee1940ny5.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Source: Motorized Reconnaissance Detachment in Combat in Flanders. By Wim Brandt (SS AA VT CO). Militar Wochenblatt.

<dl class="postprofile" id="profile168551"><dt>
</dt></dl>

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Bon Jour mon amis.
For the purpose of these next two post I am going to take the account of Major Townsend as the basis and see where it leads us.

Let us back off from St Venant and see the bigger picture.
From the above map we see a large German force, which john identified in a previous post. To the west of Robecq, Haveskirque and the forest. But what is to the south and east ? and what do the curved parallel line over the Lys east of St Venant signify,
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> We know, with certainty, that the German’s had an aid post at a School in Calonne. We also know that 2 British soldiers died here, were originally buried in the field at the rear.2 years later were reburied in the cemetery
****This proves without doubt that the German’s were picking up and treating British wounded. It seems reasonable to assume that there could have been other’s that recovered and became P.O.W’S. so why was’nt Anthony picked up by the stretcher bearers when RSM Goddard told them where he was. Or Was He.
The situation is not helped by the fact that Anthony did not have his ‘Dog Tags’.
There now seems to me 2 options :-
Option 1 we already know.
Option 2 RSM Goddard. Who was seen directing traffic across a bridge by Major Townsend, thought his wounds were not serious. What if he was wrong about the neck wound. And I am sorry john but at this stage there has to be some what if’s.
Without seeing an autopsy report as to the nature of these wounds, were the wounds Flesh wounds, I am not too concerned about the leg wounds, but the neck wound is more worrying. I had some training with the police regarding bullet wounds and obviously first aid and I am also aware of what happens to its path if a bullet hits bone. Now, john, here you have a much greater knowledge and experience. Could the neck wound have been causing internal bleeding, If so then at some point Anthony would have become unconscious. With no ‘Dog Tags ‘ and unable to speak he would be an unknown. If the German’s were unable to save him then he becomes one of our unknowns ****in Calonne Sur la Lys Cemetery.
This assumes that the action occurred to the east of St Floris.
Let us now pose the same questions from the St Venant position.
I am going to assume that the German units at this position were from a different part of 3Panzer, than those to the east.
If so, would these units have their own aid post. It would, to me, seem likely as they are quite some distance from Calonne. John you have looked at this part of the action in some detail, have you come across any reference to one. I think we can disregard the British one.
The argument from **** to **** is the same. But unless we can find an aid post in this western area then we have no idea if he could be in this area

ivor

[Baconwallah]

Good points, Ivor.

The neck wound, if the bullet or shell fragment had hit the jugular vein or the carotid artery, would very likely have been lethal in a matter of minutes. Bleeding from those wounds is profuse.

So let's sum up.

If Anthony died on the canal bank, from his wounds or because he was murdered, we should look for him among the field graves in the area.

If Anthony was taken to a 3 Pz Div Aid Post, and died there for whatever reason, we should look for him somewhat more to the south, in the Aire Canal area where one would presume the 3 Pz Div / 3 Inf Regt Aid Post to have been. It's certainly possible. His lack of identification would have thrown a spanner in the works of the German Aid Post administration.

The Volksbund (the German War Graves Commission) are already checking their archives at my request. We'll see what comes up. I shall also ask my friend in the Bundeswehr Museum again. He might be able to inform us of 3 Pz Aid Posts.

Job for the weekend.

John

[teecee1941]

John/Ivor,
Thank you both once again for your latest posts which, as always, I have read with great interest. Regarding Anthony's plight lying wounded on the canal bank, I read once again RSM Goddards two reports. There is a difference between the one he wrote to the family and the one to the Red Cross but the difference is miniscule. I would think that the one he wrote to the Red Cross contained basic facts only but perhaps as he was writing the second one, (to my grandfather) he was conscious that it was going to be read by a family and this shows in the statement that he became 'very attached to Anthony, he was a first class lad'.

To the Red Cross he wrote that he was wounded in the neck and legs and that the Germans 'ordered us to make him comfortable on the canal bank, near the village and stated that he would very soon be picked up by their field ambulance'. 'At the time Pte Corkhill was conscious and could speak and the situation in that area was quiet'. He made no mention of the severity of Anthony's wounds but it is apparent that they were severe enough to prevent him from walking.

In the letter to my grandfather he states that he found that Anthony had a flesh wound to the neck and wounds to both legs. He was conscious and spoke to me quite rationally. We certainly formed the opinion that his wounds were not fatal.

Whatever happened next, we'll probably never know but at some time after that he was declared dead. The CWGC say that he died on the 29th May. The DLI say the same and he was discharged on that day. I have emailed the CWGC to ask how they arrived at that date. Perhaps I should also ask WHEN they arrived at that date. Did the DLI inform the CWGC or vice versa. It is likely that Anthony was seen to be killed and the information was passed on to someone in authority soon afterwards. Even allowing for Anthony's lack of dog tags, he would have been known well enough for a comrade to report his death after visual identification

My thinking at the moment, until any fresh evidence appears, is that the picture, although lacking in artistic merit and slightly inaccurately scaled, is a valuable piece of information. My guess is that it all took place around the bridge and Anthony was perhaps wounded in the dash to get to the safer side. If he was wounded when actually crossing the bridge then his injuries would have prevented him from getting very far. When RSM Goddard said he was on the canal bank 'near the village', how near to the village was he or how far from the bridge was the village?

Tony

[Baconwallah]

Tony, re your last point: the bridge was just north of the village. See Google maps.

I doubt that Anthony ever made it that far. The RWF passed the retreat order to the DLI but the latter found it impossible to pull back due to the volume of fire and the presence of German tanks outside HQ (or what was left of it). Somewhere between the Taverne house and the cemetery would be the most likely spot in my opinion.

As for the date as reported by DLI and CWGC: have you requested your uncle's service record? That might give some useful information on how the date of 29th May was obtained. If you haven't, here's how:

All service papers for soldiers who served after 1920 are held at the Army Personnel Centre, Historic Disclosures, Mailpoint 400, Kentigern House, 65 Brown Street, Glasgow G2 8EX. A fee is charged (£30) for each search, even if no material is discovered. A special form has to be completed prior to the search. It is essential that you quote the Regiment and personal number of the soldier concerned. There is a long backlog of enquiries at present so it may take some weeks to receive a reply. To download an application (SAR) form - visit www.veterans-uk.info (http://www.veterans-uk.info/)and click on 'Service Records'. I can also email the forms to you.

I have passed the latest theory, about the German Aid Post, to my contacts in the Volksbund and the Bundeswehr Museum. It may help them to locate records pertinent to the case.

John

[teecee1941]

John,

Just to refresh my memory, the Taverne house is at the junction of Rue des Amusoires and the towpath, next door to the cemetery?

thanks,

Tony

[Baconwallah]

Correct, Tony.

John

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Ok. Part 2.
Bridges.

Right. again based on the extracts from Major Townsend.

First, question- are there 2 bridges ?
What do we know of the bridge at St Venant.
Of wooden construction spanning both the canal and the old river bed. which is the main Haveskirque Rd
So why would the Major record Col Harrison as’ crossing a field in the direction of Haveskirque’ when he could just go up the road ?
The report of the position coming under fire from both sides.
After leaving the Locks the canal bends toward the north for awhile then runs straight. So if the Germans set up a M/G post on the bank they could easily bring the locks under fire and if armor was approaching from the cemetery direction then yes they would be under fire from both directions. ?? sides??

A report of a tank heading north towards the Headroad to Haveskirque.
If a tank crossed the St Venant bridge it would be on the Haveskirque Rd.
If the St Venant Bridge was blown and RWF were having to swim the river.
then how did the tank cross it?

Now for the ‘Second Bridge’

What do we know about it ?
Well…errr. .hmmmm ok. Errrr Nothing.
Where was it ?
You mean exactly ..well hmmm dont know. But it did exist. The Major was at this bridge. He saw the Col crossing the field towards Haveskrque.
He himself crossed this bridge being wounded in the process. He witnessed RSM Goddard directing traffic across this bridge.
The troops at this bridge came under fire from both sides.
There are German troops approaching from south and east. There is a Bren unit on the north bank. presumably putting down covering fire for the British troops trying to get over the bridge. so they are under fire from both sides.
This bridge was not blown because the engineers had gone.
A tank crossed this bridge taking out the Bren post then proceeding towards the north where it was taken out.
RSM Goddard with others were captured at this bridge. And probably marched off to captivity along the canal bank where he sees Anthony.
All this took place on 27th.There is nothing then until 29th when the wounded soldier is shot. Presumably whilst bodies are being cleared from the area.
A stop order is issued by German High Command, for how long ? This would give the German units time to re group etc ready for the attack on Merville.
There is evidence that ‘Armored Columns crossed this bridge then turned east to attack Merville’ those defenders that could fell back to the forest. a German account states that it was very difficult to dislodge the troops from the forest and the reason the British fell back was from fear of being encircled presumably by this force and the force to the west.

Now, do we have any idea where this bridge is. I now think there is a possible answer.
If you look at the map I posted earlier you will see a detailed disposition of troops to the west.
There are other parallel lines to the south going north, more lines skirting Bethune and a set of lines Curving roughly S.E/N. crossing the Lys. Now this is a German Map showing German Troop Positions, drawn up by an S.S.Officer Could this be where I have placed the bridge and tank tracks.
Or am I misreading this and the parallel lines are actually the positions of BEF/French units. Although the German troops seem much further north than I would have expected.But why would it show a defensive line on both sides of the canal.


Ivor

[Baconwallah]

The double lines on your map, Ivor, are Allied positions. And do not forget that the map summarises the advance of only one unit (the others have not been drawn) over a period of some five days. Very little to go on.

Bridges: there were a narrow old bridge from St Venant across the Lys canal, part of the old Route Nationale, and a big wooden one just to the left of it built in early 1949 by French engineers. The latter may have afforded more direct access to the Haverskerque road, after all it was 160 yards long and probably cut off some corners, but the old Route Nationale actually turned E once across the Lys and then executed an almost 90 degree turn to the left to connect to the Haverskerque road. I can understand that, having crossed the bridge, the Colonel would not have taken the road itself but would have attempted to take a short cut across the field. Be that as it may, the big bridge should have been blown but was not.

Goddard: how do you know he was captured at the bridge? It is not documented anywhere.

Under fire from both sides: to the East there were the tanks along the tow path, no doubt accompanied by infantry. To the the West, as you already remarked, the Lys bends to the North until it returns to its westerly course past Haverskerque. A second German column had reached the Lys there and could therefore fire on the bridges along the tow path from the NW. See the map.

Hitler's stop order was dated 24th May. It was rescinded with effect from 27th May.

Have I forgotten anything?

And so to bed.

John

2853

[ivor43]

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Right I am going to surrender the east. For now. But I retain the right to return to it at any time if or when I get answers to three questions.
1) If Col Harrison was heading for Haveskirque why has he seemingly become a hero in a village several miles to the east.

2) Why did the Major state that a Lt and 60 men ( I think it was) were heading for the Forest. How would he know they were heading for the forest which is to the north of Haveskirque. If going from St Venant.

3) Where did the assault force that attacked Merville cross the Lys before it turned east.

We now have to find an aid post either S or W of St Venant As the Germans said there was a field ambulance operating in the area I doubt it was very far from it’s base.


ivor

[Baconwallah]

Here we go, Ivor:

1 - The Rue du Col Harrison is within the Commune de Haverskerque, not in another village. The distance from Haverskerque village centre is less than a mile, not several miles.

2 - Question not understood.

2 - 6th Bde HQ having relocated to le Touquet and its bns posted from St Venant to Bas-Hamel, Calonne was defended only by a coy of French pioneers and ten British stragglers and the fight lasted less than an hour. The only defence of Merville consisted of 6th KORR supported by an MG section and a few field guns. The Germans simply took the main road through Calonne until they were held at the Merville bridge by 6 KORR.

John

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Hi all.
No I haven’t gone AWOL, we have just been very busy. have eaten out with friends 4 times in the last 5 days.
John. I did not think that you could answer my questions, you seem to be arguing from what is already written eg. The Red Dragon. The answers are not there, neither are they in 2DLI records.
We have to go outside these records, which we know are suspect
My apparent obsession with ‘’La Rue Du Colonel Harrison’’ is really quite simple.
In order for this to happen a motion would have to be put before the local Council. Stating Why it was felt that in view of the actions of the Col this was an appropriate memorial. This would probably be debated and then entered in the minutes of the meeting. If this could be found it would be an independent and authoritive piece of evidence.
The location of the death of Col Harrison is possibly open to question, having read of his Custeresque death in a heroic last stand at the bridge, I find it somewhat bemusing. You, some pages ago, expressed an opinion of the colonel in less than flattering terms. When it appeared from Major Townsend’s dairy that he was seen heading north from the bridge.
So where was he?
The Red Dragon account is similar to stuff I have read before, where senior officer who have through incompetence, poor decisions etc lost their forces they have been written up as having a heroic death, defending some strategic point. The writers never expect their accounts to be challenged and in most cases they are not.
But in this case everything is open to challenge.
We Will succeed.

ivor

[Baconwallah]

Morning Ivor,

You refer to my description of Col Harrison as 'less than flattering' which I think misinterprets my opinion. He did the best he could under impossible circumstances, and was not permitted to withdraw until it was much too late and most of his battalion had been wiped out. It's hard to see what else he could have done.

As for the requested minutes of the deliberations of the council of Haverskerque: feel free to ask for them at contact-mairie-haverskerque@wanadoo.fr.

My French friend tells me that so far he has drawn only blanks.

John

[ap1]

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The Red Dragon account is similar to stuff I have read before, where senior officer who have through incompetence, poor decisions etc lost their forces they have been written up as having a heroic death, defending some strategic point. The writers never expect their accounts to be challenged and in most cases they are not.
But in this case everything is open to challenge.
We Will succeed.

ivor

Please exercise a degree of restraint in your comments Ivor. His family would not feel his death was "Custeresque".

Thanks

[teecee1941]

Hi John,

Sorry I'm a bit late with this reply. At the moment I have not applied for Anthony's service record. I have written to the CWGC and will wait until I have a reply. I expect this will take a week or two.

Tony

[Baconwallah]

Thanks for the info, Tony. The CWGC reply may need interpretation (or additional questions) so please keep me posted.

John

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Ap1.
I am somewhat bemused by your response to my post. i do not understand how a reference to George Armstrong Custer could be offensive.
But then again I suppose it depends on whose account you read and chose to believe. History of the Native American people has been somewhat of a passion of mine for a number of years and I have a fairly extensive collection of works on these people.
You can not study them without coming across the 3 major battles. Sand Creek (Soldier Blue) Wounded Knee where a Gatling Gun was used against unarmed Natives.
And of course The Little Big Horn.
Now. Colonel George Armstrong Custer. Last in his year at West Point. Served with some distinction In The Civil War (1861-66) made a very advantageous Political Marriage which did not make him popular with his fellow officers, as his wife had the ear of many senior officers.
I think, from what I have read, that he was a good officer, maybe not brilliant, liked by those under his command. who had had success in previous campaigns against the Natives.
I believe this success led to his ultimate defeat. He totally misunderstood his enemy, this time, a very large gathering of Sioux. and he made a serious tactical error, he split his command.
After the defeat he was blamed entirely by his detractors until his wife used her political contacts to create the story of the Heroic Last Stand. I believe Truth and facts became another casualty of this war.
I am,at the moment, reading Prof Saul David’s Book. ZULU. The Heroism and Tragedy of the Zulu War of 1879.

Believe me his comments regarding the abilities etc of the Senior Officers is much more scathing than anything I could have written. But the official records of this action also seem to leave Truth and Fact as a casualty.
Now for Colonel Harrison. I DO NOT believe he underestimated his enemy, in fact I am convinced that he was fully aware that he was out gunned, short of men, and what he had were tired. And his only intention was to get his men out of a position that was rapidly becoming untenable.
I believe the only Tac error here was from the top. The decision to send this unit into a breach to face a much the much superior 3 Panzer.
But let me quote from my first paragraph ‘’But then again I suppose it depends on whose account you read and chose to believe ‘’
If you wish to believe The Red Dragon Account so be it. But in reading the account from the Diary of Major Townsend then that appears to indicate something different. As i said, I was using the Diary as a basis for discussion purposes. And i will do so until I have evidence it is wrong.
In using Custeresque I was referring to the manner in which it was written up long after the fact. And seemingly ignoring the possibility of an alternative, as suggested by the Diary of Major Townsend, As were the accounts of Mrs Custer. Not to his actual death.
Be assured I have no intention of Besmirching the memory of Colonel Harrison He has my Full Respect. But in what we are doing we have to re-examine everything in order to establish the truth and location of the remains of Pte Corkhill. And I would hope that the Harrison family will understand this.



ivor

[Baconwallah]

Ivor, you have now lost me completely. Has anyone ever suggested that Col Harrison underestimated the enemy? All reports indicate that he knew exactly what he was up against.

As for 1 RWF being where it was, that was simply because there was nothing else. The task of 6 Bde was to delay the enemy long enough to make the evacuation of the BEF possible. They did that, they did that well, and paid the inevitable price. That a stand behind the Lys canal would have been better than one in front of it, that is another matter, and probably the result of faulty information at Bde HQ. It was certainly not Col Harrison's choice.

I also still fail to understand why Capt Townsend's diary would indicate a stand anywhere but at the St Venant bridge, and why it is in your opinion the only reliable account while the Red Dragon account, the 1954 YDG account and the written reports of the officers captured at St Venant are all part of a grand conspiracy to hide "the truth", whatever that may be.

John

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> John,
My friend I am sorry if have confused you. My last message was mainly aimed at ap1 who thought that my ref to Custers last stand may have been taken as offensive I was only trying to clarify my thinking for him.
I made ref to 2 battles, the 7th Cavalry at Little Big Horn and the British troops at, and I should have been more specific, Isandlwana. These defeats were caused by the senior officers having a misplaced belief in their superiority and totally underestimating their enemy.
My ref to Col Harrison was to ensure that in no way was I suggesting that he made a similar mistake.
Now a couple of posts ago I said I was giving up my position at the east, for now. And that for discussion purposes I was using the words of Major Townsend. I assume you are aware of the duties of ‘’ a Devils Advocate’’ within the Catholic Church.
I am now arguing purely on the words of the Major. As if he was at the St Venant Bridge.
I thought that we were broadly in agreement that what has been written was possibly suspect. Therefore when the Major states he saw Col Harrison crossing fields to the north, towards Haverskirque and the Red Dragon places him quite firmly south of the bridge till virtually the last possible minute I have a great deal of difficulty reconciling the two accounts.
The Major states that he was wounded in the face while crossing the bridge and a Welsh soldier put a dressing on it. Where? If this was at the British Aid post would he not have mentioned it and would he not have had to wait while more serious wounds were treated. My impression is that this was done quickly ‘on the spot’
The Red Dragon account says that several tanks crossed the bridge. The Major specifically states that a tank went onto the bridge, took out the M/G post and then went North and was taken out by an 18lb’er.Now I am quite convinced that he would know it was an 18lb’er from the sound of the discharge. The same as, even, i know the difference between the sounds of an LMG and a HMG.
Can we equate these two accounts? There does not seem to be any obvious connection. Unless we consider the possibility of a second crossing to the east.
John when entering into a debate, arguments both for and against the topic are given and those listening form opinions. in this debate you are pro the Red Dragon, regimental account. I am trying to rebut your arguments by using the words of the Major, I have never said that the Major is right, I dont know that, but neither do I know that the Red Dragon is right. This is what we have to establish, we can not just dismiss the Major because it is inconvenient.
And finally john, I do love a good conspiracy theory but I am sorry this is not one. I do however know something about the concept of truth and I can assure you it is not always exactly what it seems. it depends to a great extent where you are viewing it from.

ivor

[Verrieres]

Anthony Corkhill

Excuse the underlining of the title but I am going to pop in and try and steer you back towards Anthony whenever it looks likely that this is going off on a tangent.Although everything stated is relevant to the action are we any closer to finding Anthony?..No.....Farm Boulet was the only link to Soldier 6...If Farm Boulet is discounted and we are satisfied that there were no other `Boulet` residencies lets move on.
With no other obvious links regarding any of the other atrocities in the area do we now concentrate on the possibility that Anthony died possibly two days later in hospital be that a field Hospital or a General Hospital?
If we do take this direction,I am assuming,that as an unknown or not his death will have been recorded and documented ? Dental records ? I would assume the dental records would have been recorded on a body either in a Hospital or if we choose to go there,on those `inconnu` exhumed in 1941-42 ie pathologist reports?
When these bodies were exhumed/buried France was still occupied so there would have been no chance to compare any medical records.I have case notes from a `Searcher Party` file (location of missing soldiers graves) from 1943 for the area of Sicily,one body discovered in an unmarked grave was believed to be a 9th DLI soldier called Evans (This was the last area he had been seen alive) A three page report detailing clothing,position ,personal effects and more importantly his dental records were listed.Subsequent enquiries were made and a reply from The Infantry Records in York disproved that this was Evans because their records showed that teeth present on the body were recorded as already extracted on his enlistment .Evans remains `unknown`..but at least it goes to show that somewhere these dental records were recorded. Army records are available,I have my uncles,but there are no medical records amongst them presumably these would have been kept for pension applications?
I really am clutching at reality here I`m so much out of my comfort zone.
The autopsy reports from the bodies around St Venant exist (Fact Thats how Tom Rodgers was found) M.Faivre is believed to hold them but he is tied up with another project. The locations of the unknowns are also ,presumably , known by the CWGC have we established how many unknowns there are in the area I believe there are up to forty in St Venant alone. This may seem a labourious effort but some of those unknowns will be discounted because of rank,Tattoos,Regimental insignia (Hair colour ,height if the reports can be accessed!) Would this be an avenue Tony could explore or have I missed something glaringly obvious.(Which to be honest I probably have!!)

Best
Jim

[Baconwallah]

Jim. you are quite right.

The present situation is summarised in my post #175 below.

What we need: info on field graves on the bank of the Lys canal E of the bridge and info on deaths in German Aid Posts or Clearing Stations from 27th to 29th May.

I have set the German War Graves people to work on the latter. For the former we depend on local information which is not in the Mairie but seemingly only in the possession of M Faivre. And that will be a problem, as he has stated to my friend that he has done all he can and can do no more.

Unless the CWGC can produce a list of field graves, or can be persuaded to explain why they decided on the death date of 29th May, we have nothing to go on. Remember that comparing dental records is all very fine, but you need something to compare them to.

John

[Verrieres]

Hello John,
The dental records suggestion would have been a direct comparrison between those on the autopsy reports and (if they still survive) the servicemans records but I am aware on the likelyhood of gaining access to them.
I have in the past contacted the CWGC on several occasions the last in relation to an unknown DLI Sgt and although they could tell me nothing to help with his identification they did supply the map co-ordinates of the original field grave,So they do hold this in their records.
As a start I have enquired if there are amongst the unknowns in St Venant and Merville (Four known DLI lie here believed died of wounds)any soldiers whose personal identities are unknown but who are known to be from the DLI (Signified by the DLI cap badge on an `Unknown`Headstone.
The hospital route via the German war graves is promising but would their records (or at least copies of them) not now be in the Hands of the CWGC?
I am aware of that mix up at the German field Hospital (Schoolhouse in Calonne) which resulted in the removal of ID Tags from Five British soldiers resulting in them being buried as `unknowns` I am summising that they had the tags but it was not known which body they had originated?
Whilst on the subject of Tags I am aware that Tony believes Anthony may have left his at home...is this not a disiplinary offence? I am not an expert on this but I find it hard to believe these would not have been replaced by May 1940 remember 2 DLI were first of the DLI battalions in France in 1939? Just thinking out aloud but ...no I`ll save it

Best

Jim

[Baconwallah]

Jim,

The dental records of wor Tony will be the least of our problems. Getting the exhumation reports from M Faivre will be much more difficult and probably impossible as my friend tells me he refuses to co-operate any further.

I'm not sure the CWGC would have field grave information for the area. The French cleared the field graves in 1942 which meant that in 1945 the CWGC could take over a nicely prepared plot in the communal cemetery. They may have received the paperwork to go with it, but on the other hand they may not. Only the CWGC can answer this.

In view of the strange confirmation of date of death during the war I think that the CWGC and the service record may hold the key to all this. How did the Army know that he was dead, when there was a war on? German report through Switzerland? If so, what did it say?

John

[Verrieres]

Jim,

The dental records of wor Tony will be the least of our problems. Getting the exhumation reports from M Faivre will be much more difficult and probably impossible as my friend tells me he refuses to co-operate any further.

I'm not sure the CWGC would have field grave information for the area. The French cleared the field graves in 1942 which meant that in 1945 the CWGC could take over a nicely prepared plot in the communal cemetery. They may have received the paperwork to go with it, but on the other hand they may not. Only the CWGC can answer this.

In view of the strange confirmation of date of death during the war I think that the CWGC and the service record may hold the key to all this. How did the Army know that he was dead, when there was a war on? German report through Switzerland? If so, what did it say?

John

Hello John,
How strange that M Faivre does not want to help I know he is busy at present but its not as if he has been pestered Tony only made one approach to him and he request a photograph and as much detail as possible...then nothing.Very strange.
In relation to the Field graves information as mentioned my last enquiry was in relation to a DLI Sgt also 2nd Battalion at rest in Leopoldsburg the reply from the CWGC was;-

Thank you for your e mail of 23 October. Please accept our apologies for the delay in reply: due to the high volume of enquiries received by our offices we currently have a backlog we are working to clear.
With regard to your query as to the ‘Unknown Serjeant of the Durham Light Infantry’ who is buried in Leopoldsburg War Cemetery in Belgium.
I have examined our Second World War records and can simply confirm that are limited records consistent throughout in recording these details. Our records are, as you may be aware, based on information provided to us after the war by the Service Authorities at the time. They would have provided us the above detail, based on the limited information that they had available to them at the time when the casualty’s remains were recovered from their original burial place in Gastuche Temporary Burial Ground at map reference:
M.R. 822424, Sheet 56
1/50,000, GSGS 4040
The map reference given above refers to the Second World War maps held at the Imperial War Museum. However, the maps are in the process of being digitised, and this is expected to take some considerable time. Should you require further information on this, you may wish to contact the following address:
Imperial War Museum
Department of Printed Books
Lambeth Road
Lambeth
London
SE1 6HZ
Tel: 020 7416 5342
Fax: 020 7416 5374
E-mail: books@iwm.org.uk
In closing, I am sorry that we have no further information other than the above, but I hope this is of some interest.

Yours sincerely,


Julie Somay (Mrs)
Enquiries Section
Commonwealth War Graves Commission
Head Office
2 Marlow Road
Maidenhead
Berkshire
SL6 7DX
Incidentally my enquiry related to the headstone being marked as a DLI SGT when no DLI SGTS were outstanding/missing only one L/Sgt matched but there was a 12 day discrepency in the dates of death and where this L/Sgt was last seen alive.
The report from Switzerland has one major flaw if it were the Swiss that notified the British why did the Red Cross write to RSM Goddard on behalf of the Corkhill family?
There are missing men files for each campaign Anthony Corkhill at no stage is reported missing its certain in black and white..DEAD...not KiA ..not Died of Wounds..not Died in Captivity...emphatically DEAD! Like you said how did they know and what is the Q80 reference on the accquital roll? Oh yes and apparently he isnt listed as drawing pay on the 15th May 1940 when only 12 members of HQ Company are listed?? More questions than answers I`m afraid.
Best
Jim

[Baconwallah]

Jim, my French friend told me that he had the distinct impression that M Faivre did not appreciate Tony asking a second historian for help. He explained at length that he had done his best but had not found anything, and if he couldn't find Tony's uncle, nobody could. As for copying the exhumation data and /or path report for us, no dice. You and I would decide to work together for a better prospect of results, but M Faivre obviously decided otherwise. The Mairie has nothing of interest, they told my friend, and referred him to M Faivre.

So I once again suggest pestering the CWGC to reveal their source of onformation on the death of Tony's uncle, and also coughing up 30 quid for a copy of his service record. At the very least we'll then know more than we do now.

John

[teecee1941]

Jim, my French friend told me that he had the distinct impression that M Faivre did not appreciate Tony asking a second historian for help. He explained at length that he had done his best but had not found anything, and if he couldn't find Tony's uncle, nobody could. As for copying the exhumation data and /or path report for us, no dice. You and I would decide to work together for a better prospect of results, but M Faivre obviously decided otherwise. The Mairie has nothing of interest, they told my friend, and referred him to M Faivre.

So I once again suggest pestering the CWGC to reveal their source of onformation on the death of Tony's uncle, and also coughing up 30 quid for a copy of his service record. At the very least we'll then know more than we do now.

John

John,

Today I rang the DLI Museum and the CWGC in London to ask about the 27th or 29th date of death mystery. They were both as helpful as they could be but it seemed that a bit of guesswork was involved. The CWGC eventually said I would be better contacting the Army Service Records in Glasgow. I have tried and tried to contact them but either the page is unable to be found or it won't take any details. A week or two ago you sent me details of how to make contact and the form to use. I've searched for the last hour but can't find it. Could you send it again, please?

Thanks,

Tony

[Baconwallah]

Tony, the two forms you'll need are on the way. Check your email and you'll find them.

John

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Jim.
Believe me I have not forgotten what we are doing. To a degree we are at an impasse. as I said I have given up, for now, my stand to the east.

You guys covered the western aspect of this action quite thoroughly but did you find any mention of an aid post. Might it have been as far away as Robecq? At the moment we don’t know. But as they used a school in Calonne is there not a possibility that they would have used a similar building elsewhere.


But of course, and any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Is there a possibility that the Aid post in Calonne was for the whole area, with a number of Field Ambulances operating in various parts of the action. Treating minor wounds on site and conveying the more serious casualties to Calonne before sending them to the rear?
There are good roads between Calonne, Robecq, St Venant and St Floris, and the distances are not great.

I am surprised that dental records were kept in 1940. but surely they would only be for those persons who had had dental work done, if Anthony, at 21,had a good set of teeth would there be any record. Or was everyone that enlisted recorded.


Ivor

[Baconwallah]

An Aid Post at Calonne would have belonged to a different part of 3 Pz, Ivor. Can't rule it out, but it's unlikely. Equally unlikely is the Aid Post at the Boulet farm, in an entirely different sector of the battlefield and belonging to SS Germania instead of 3 Pz. We should look at St Venant itself, and the area to the south of it, near the l'Epinette bridge on either side of the la Bassee canal, to find the Aid Post or (more likely) the Clearing Station or whatever it may have been. I'm hoping that the Volksbund may have information pertinent to the case. But that will probably take some time.

John

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Hi again.
Interesting. You say that Anthony was not drawing pay at HQ on 12th May. I assume you mean 2DLI HQ. Where were the units at that time, do we know?
Is there a possibility that at some time before the 12th RSM Goddard and Anthony could have been reassigned to Brigade HQ.
Would this have taken them off 2DLI’s HQ payroll and put them on Brigade pay.
If for instance the Brigade HQ RSM ( Do they have one ) had been killed sometime prior to 12th if RSM Goddard was the next senior RSM would he not have been moved up.
As we have a map showing Brigade HQ at Calonne it could put him back to the East of St Floris when Bgd HQ was forced to retreat.
Hmmm interesting.
Again thoughts please.

Ivor.

[ivor43]

John.
Would you consider the action that appears to have taken place to the east of St Floris to be Bgd HQ trying to extricate themselves from Calonne with A Co RWF and the DLI Co providing cover.

ivor

[Baconwallah]

Ivor, on the 25th Bde HQ relocated from Calonne through Merville to le Touquet, just north of Haverskerque. Cover was provided by 6 KORR, which was a pioneer bn belonging to Army Troops.

John

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Mornin all.
Further thoughts on the Brigade idea.
If there is a possibility that, from some time prior to 12th, RSM Goddard and Anthony were moved to Brigade HQ, and, taking Bob’s idea of an ‘O Group’ being formed.

Would a senior RSM be part of this Group. And would there be D/R’s attached.
I am just wondering, if Goddard had been trying to keep Anthony out of sight as much as possible because of the ‘Dog Tag’ problem,
Then i would guess that they were trying to cover it up till they got back to UK. Anthony could then just pick them up from where ever he left them.

The move to Brigade would make this more difficult. And, if, Goddard was attached to the ‘O’ Group, virtually impossible, unless he requested Anthony as a DR.

Teecee do you know if there is possibly any family connection between Anthony’s parents and Goddard. Or had Anthony’s father served with Goddard previously. As I am puzzled as to why Goddard is doing this? It seems very odd. This was a serious disciplinary offense and Goddard is condoning it. Strange.


John. Just read your latest post. You don’t half make things easy,(sigh) my brain hasn’t been this busy in years. Which is good, I was getting a bit sluggish.

So if Brigade moved N on 25th would this make the formation of an ‘O’ Group more likely. So what I had already written above still applies.

ivor

[ivor43]

teecee
my question in the above is just a general interest question. if there is nothing obvious then i dont think there is any need to dig further.

ivor

[ivor43]

John.
i am at my local library at the moment so i can dig a bit.I have been searching the list of 3 panzer (Post 62) and there is no ref to a field aid post it only mentions in HQ Motor pool, 2 x3ton Ambulances.This might appear to suggest that Aid posts/ Hospitals were provided by some other organization. while i was there i also looked at the Bridge units. page 14 shows 1 Pz pioneer Co. had - 1 bridge platoon comprising - 1 Pz 11 (SD KFZ 121)and 4 armored Bridge Layers on Mk iv Chassis.
Page 15 details a bridging train.
If we recall the Diary of Major Townsend he states 'a tank went onto the bridge' could this have been the tank attached to this platoon,OK i am back east. but it may explain the ref to a tank. while at ST Venant the account refers to several tanks.Still digging.

[Baconwallah]

Ivor, my friend, each battalion or battalion sized unit of the Wehrmacht had its own medical unit with a doctor and sufficient staff to man an aid post (Truppenverbandplatz). Stretcher bearers would be provided by the companies. Exactly as in the British Army.

At divisional level there were two medical companies (Sanitätskompanien) which could each form a Casualty Clearing Station (Hauptverbandplatz) with one or two surgical teams and short stay beds. These companies also had a pharmacy and dental component. A real field hospital (Feldlazarett) was added at divisional level until 1942, when it was transferred to Army Troops.

O Groups to the best of my knowledge did not include RSMs, not did Brigade HQs. RSMs did not have dispatch riders.

I do admire and enjoy your new theory of the kindly RSM, although it's not quite as good as the panzer commander taking the night off.

John

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> John.
There was no reference in the list other than I said, I will have to take your word for it, but I find it odd that they would not include such facilities.
Now with regard to my kindly RSM . I know that they are not usually of that nature. But why is he apparently sticking his neck on a block for a Pte unless he may be doing a favour for the parents.

Ok I left myself open to a Fusillade of LMG , HMG and whatever because I did not realise the significance of what I had written until I got home again.
Of Course the tank that was attached to the bridge unit was not there as an offensive weapon it would have been for Armoured reconnaissance its weapons used as defence. So once it crossed this bridge of course it went North. Not to attack, apart from taking out a M/G post. But to reconnoitre the Old River Bed for a suitable crossing place.

John.mon ami moi pont de l’est , tres possible?

Ivor.

[Baconwallah]

Yves, mon cher ami, bien que le pont de l'est soit possible techniquement, quoique à peine, historiquement c'est un absurdité. Je regrette beaucoup.

Jean

Well, you asked for it...

Re your list, I have just checked the official German Army Handbook published by the War Office in 1943 or so. It does not mention any medical troops at all. Doesn't mean the Wehrmacht had no medical services. My info comes from a German manual I didn't even know I had until your questions forced me into the darkest and dustiest corners of my library (still coughing). You'll have to take my word for it.

Five Pz Divs (1. 2. 3. 5 and 10) had a bridging component with 4 Pz IV Brückenleger tanks (of which 20 had been built). The bridge was 10 metres long, give or take an inch or two, and for the 20 m wide Lys canal three of these bridges would have been necessary - if the canal was shallow enough to allow their use, as the supports were only about 3 metres long. Since a bridge across the Lys canal would only have led to the old Lys bed, another watery obstacle for which then only one bridge would have been available, I consider their use here extremely unlikely, the more so since two excellent and barely defended bridges were available at Merville and St Venant.

On a more practical note, Tony has now applied for his uncle's service record.

John

[Verrieres]

Ivor,
Perhaps I can help with some of your questions.In regard to Captain Townsend`s diary please remember this must have been written in England after the event the inclusion of POW Numbers issued by the Germans in his end reference,and details of Gallantry awards not yet authorised whilst in France demonstrate this.

The Tank on the bridge was one of FIVE approaching the bridge not including the one which had bulldozed through the DLI Hq (Barn).The diary refers to Armoured Cars until the later paragraphs.

The Special relationship between RSM Goddard and Pte Corkhill? The pair had served together since 1931 (apart from a short posting by the RSM to 1st DLI).RSM Goddard had served throughout the 1st WW again with 2 DLI.

The area of the Robecq Rd Rue Amuzoires and St Floris was held by Machine gun detachments from C Company 2nd Manchesters.

Military Hospitals included those at Laventie,Merville and Saint Pol (Four DLI died at Merville and are buried there two were known to be from Hq Company)

The Pay issue the only thing that can be drawn from this is there must have been great confusion with men spread out over a wide area.The only men recorded in any number as drawing their pay were those of D Company.How accurate these records are is also open to interpretation as many returning PoWs questioned the validity of these records.

On another unrelated (not quite true!) The owner of the Farm used by the DLI as their Hq,Monsieur Taverne was found dead in (possibly executed by Germans) in a canal lock at Merville.

Best


Jim

[teecee1941]

teecee
my question in the above is just a general interest question. if there is nothing obvious then i dont think there is any need to dig further.

ivor

Ivor.

No, I am not aware of any connection between the families.

Tony

[teecee1941]

teecee
my question in the above is just a general interest question. if there is nothing obvious then i dont think there is any need to dig further.

ivor

[teecee1941]

Ivor.

No, I am not aware of any connection between the families.
On a human interest note;- I have a copy of a letter that RSM Goddard wrote to Anthony's father (my grandfather) after the war. He expressed his sorrow at the realisation that Anthony had not been seen again after the 27th. He said, ''I was very attached to him, he was a first class lad''.

Tony

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Hi Guys.

What follows is lengthy (3 parts) and not intended as a lecture or a criticism of anyone or any published work. Neither is it my Intention to be insulting or offensive. My only wish is to try and promote some Creative Thinking. Which I believe is going to be needed to solve this. Remember evidence is used to prove or disprove something.

I am beginning to have some misgivings about what we seem to be doing here. As a Police Officer we operated under very strict rules, The Judges Rules covered the treatment of Offenders, including the Formal Caution, ‘’ You are not obliged etc’’ as it was then. The Rules of Evidence , which laid down what was and was not permitted. Hearsay evidence was not permitted. Circumstantial Evidence was allowed but may lead to questions. But the Best Evidence was that of Eye Witnesses. However, this may to a surprising degree differ. If for example I witnessed a RTA. From a point say 100 yds to the rear, and someone else saw the same incident from the opposite direction they could have seen something entirely different. Yet in Court we would both be telling the Truth, As We Saw it. That is why in an earlier post I said the Truth was not always what it seems.
The training we had in Investigative technique was very comprehensive. In order to take a case to Court you had to examine Every Piece of Evidence. Even if it was contrary to the case. Because you needed to be aware, if possible, of what the Defendant was going to use.

In this case, the people who will have the final decision regarding our findings are going to have a lot more experience in these matters than we have, and believe me will go through our findings in minute detail. Therefore we have to be absolutely 100% sure of our facts. with the evidence to back it up.
What we have done so far has generated a large amount of info, but has it really moved us any closer to out goal. Not really. Why?
There seem so be a reluctance to challenge the Regimental accounts, although we, I thought, were broadly in agreement that they could be suspect.
Verriers, you say that the Majors account should not be trusted as it was probably written when he returned to England, which may have been a matter of Days later. But you seem to accept the 2 DLI account which, after the original was lost, was rewritten sometime later. The same, I believe, applies to the Red Dragon, it was written later based on reports made some time after the action. I am sorry guys but we need to find some fresh evidence. I know that this is difficult 72 years after the event, but we have to try.
My questioning the Aid Post has resulted in john finding a long forgotten book, Sorry about the dust. But this may lead to something else we do not yet know. This may be fresh Independent Evidence.
The behaviour of RSM Goddard, in relation to Anthony’s Dog Tags, is odd, hence my question about family ties. Has it any relevance? I don’t really know, maybe not. But we should not totally dismiss it.



1

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Now my ‘Fanciful’ account of German Engineers having a night out in Haverskirque.
The RWF War Diary says that in the morning a party of German Engineers were seen heading from the direction of Haverskirque. The plan was to capture them but they were engaged before this could happen.

So why were these engineers heading towards St Venant/St Floris? Again evidence shows that Bridging material was captured at St Floris. So it is not that difficult to connect the two. The engineers were returning to continue with what they had been doing the previous day. The troops encountered by the advancing RWF would have been guarding the Bridging Equipment. So presuming that these engineers were not aware that British troops were nearer than was expected, why would they not go into the nearest town.

If any of you were out on Manoeuvres close to a town, with a free night, did you stay in camp?
Now for my crowning piece of Questionable Logic. My second bridge to the East of St Venant and associated Tank Tracks. The following quote is taken from :-

The War in France and Flanders 1939-1940 by Major L.F.Ellis
No one visiting the quiet little town of St Venant for the first time would consider that it had military importance. Yet the contrast between its past and the peaceful history of any comparable town in England could hardly be greater. St Venant has seen many actions and suffered many sieges. Sir Thomas Morgan, one of Cromwell's commanders, took it from the Spaniards in 1657; Marlborough took it from the French in 1710; in 1940 it had been taken by the Germans on May the 24th and recaptured by the British 2nd Division on May the 25th (page 146). It was held on the morning of the 27th by the 6th Brigade's right flank battalion, the 1st Royal Welch Fusiliers, and part of the 2nd Durham Light Infantry. It will be remembered that the Welch Fusiliers had a detached company holding Robecq, but between St Venant and Robecq the enemy had penetrated. On the morning of the 27th composite forces of tanks and infantry attacked both places. The troops holding St Venant had heavy casualties and were gradually borne back and enclosed. **As evening drew on, the enemy had tanks beyond the canal bridge behind St Venant. When at last the order to withdraw north of the Lys reached the reduced garrison they had to fight their way out and but a fraction of the battalions got through. The detached company of Welch Fusiliers holding Robecq, which had been isolated and completely surrounded the day before, also tried to fight its way back to the Lys, but few avoided capture.
Through the gap east of St Venant the enemy's armoured columns had advanced on Merville and Lesterm. Merville was practically surrounded. A machine-gun company of the 6th Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders sent to assist the 6th King's Own came under heavy fire as they approached, and could not get into the town. The enemy was reinforced by troops landed by aircraft on the nearby airfield (which our gunners shelled) but the garrison held out till night-time when, on orders to withdraw, those who were left managed very skilfully to get away. The third battalion of the 6th Brigade—the 1st Royal Berkshire—also suffered heavily before they too were drawn back to the north.[14]

2

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Interesting.
In the first Para I have Starred an interesting passage re tanks behind St Venant while British troops were still in St Venant. Did they still hold the bridge if so where did these tanks come from. We are not told. They may have come across from the west. This may also be taken as circumstantial evidence for a crossing to the east. This is the sort of event that needs to be investigated, as if there is no evidence of an incursion from the west then they must have come from the East.
Oh dear there is a gap east of St Venant.
We have captured Bridging material at St Floris. We have a party of Engineers heading for the area. We have some very suspicious field marks just across the Lys. All to the East of St Venant.
Whilst this is very much Circumstantial Evidence it gives a very strong argument for the possibility of a crossing. Taken together with the Majors Diary and the fact that A Co RWF and was it D Co 2DLI were defending the East of St Floris (were they defending something other than St Floris?). then it increases the possibility. I have no direct evidence, yet, but I am still looking.
Hmm.
I read of the above several weeks ago and did not realise the relevance, it took me an hour to find this again this AM .
I hope this has not been boring or too fanciful. I just wish to try and create some fresh ideas. And encourage some ‘off the cuff’ thinking.
We can Not ignore anything even if it does not fit with historical records. Mon Amis, the answer will not be found in the Authorised Versions of the Regimental records.


Ivor

[Verrieres]

Hi Guys.

What follows is lengthy (3 parts) and not intended as a lecture or a criticism of anyone or any published work. Neither is it my Intention to be insulting or offensive. My only wish is to try and promote some Creative Thinking. Which I believe is going to be needed to solve this. Remember evidence is used to prove or disprove something.

I am beginning to have some misgivings about what we seem to be doing here. As a Police Officer we operated under very strict rules, The Judges Rules covered the treatment of Offenders, including the Formal Caution, ‘’ You are not obliged etc’’ as it was then. The Rules of Evidence , which laid down what was and was not permitted. Hearsay evidence was not permitted. Circumstantial Evidence was allowed but may lead to questions. But the Best Evidence was that of Eye Witnesses. However, this may to a surprising degree differ. If for example I witnessed a RTA. From a point say 100 yds to the rear, and someone else saw the same incident from the opposite direction they could have seen something entirely different. Yet in Court we would both be telling the Truth, As We Saw it. That is why in an earlier post I said the Truth was not always what it seems.
The training we had in Investigative technique was very comprehensive. In order to take a case to Court you had to examine Every Piece of Evidence. Even if it was contrary to the case. Because you needed to be aware, if possible, of what the Defendant was going to use.

In this case, the people who will have the final decision regarding our findings are going to have a lot more experience in these matters than we have, and believe me will go through our findings in minute detail. Therefore we have to be absolutely 100% sure of our facts. with the evidence to back it up.
What we have done so far has generated a large amount of info, but has it really moved us any closer to out goal. Not really. Why?
There seem so be a reluctance to challenge the Regimental accounts, although we, I thought, were broadly in agreement that they could be suspect.
Verriers, you say that the Majors account should not be trusted as it was probably written when he returned to England, which may have been a matter of Days later. But you seem to accept the 2 DLI account which, after the original was lost, was rewritten sometime later. The same, I believe, applies to the Red Dragon, it was written later based on reports made some time after the action. I am sorry guys but we need to find some fresh evidence. I know that this is difficult 72 years after the event, but we have to try.
My questioning the Aid Post has resulted in john finding a long forgotten book, Sorry about the dust. But this may lead to something else we do not yet know. This may be fresh Independent Evidence.
The behaviour of RSM Goddard, in relation to Anthony’s Dog Tags, is odd, hence my question about family ties. Has it any relevance? I don’t really know, maybe not. But we should not totally dismiss it.



1

Ivor
Sorry but I never said that Townsends Diary was not to be trusted nor have I ever said I accepted the official 2 DLI diaries,if you recall it was me who pointed out that the `official diaries were reconstituted at a latter date,Townsends diary and the Official Diaries are just that `Diaries` not legal statements.I think your leading the witness..there!
Townsends diaries could indeed have been written days after ...but they were not!..The clues are in the diary itself .As an ex-Policeman like you said your investigative training was quite intensive so you would have course noticed the most damming evidence of all The Diary of Major CM Townsend..not Captain CM Townsend as he was in 1940.Promotion to Major came officially in August 1945 before this he was war substansive.
I have listed why RSM Goddard may have had such a special relationship with Anthony... due to his long service ,I`ve posted the locations of Hospitals etc all of which were legitimate questions posted in this thread what I do not and will not do is cast any doubt on any document official or semi-official.What I do is accept both accounts as you so rightly put it as AS WE SAW IT.

Best
Jim

[jungle1810]

Hello,
Re the mention opf armoured cars in the ST Venant area, I came across the following. Sd Kfz 234 Started building in 1940 in response to a German army requirement. Country of origin Germany crew 4 men weight 11,740 Kg 25,828 LB, Length 6.80 metres Width 2.3 metres, height 2.38 metres Armour 5.15 mm 0. 19.05 of an inch. armaments one 20 mm kwk 30/50 mm cannon one coaxial 7.92 mm machine gun power plant one Tatra model 103 diesel engine developing 210 hp, maximum road speed 85 km/h 53 miles per hour fording 1.2 metres 3foot 10.75 inches vertical obstacle o.5 metres 1 foot 7.75 inches trench 1.35 metres 4 foot 5 inches. This is an 8 wheeled vehicle ( not a tracked vehicle)
Regards RBD

[jungle1810]

Hello,
Another version of a light armoured c ar built for the German army in the mid 1930's. SdKfz 222 Country of origin Germany Crew 3, Weight 4,800 kg 10,560 lb, Dimensions length 4.80 metres 14 foot 8 inches, width 1.95 metres 6 foot 4.75 inches, height 2 metres 6 fot 6.75 inches, with grenade screen Range 300 km 187 milesw armour 14.5 -30 mm 0.6 -1.2 inches armaments one 20 mm KwK 30 cannon, one 7.92 m G 34 machine gun power plant one Horch / Auto -Union V8 -108 water cooled petrol engine developing 81 hp maximum road speed 80 k/m 50 miles per hour fording 0.6 24 inches. this is a four wheeled vehicle
Regards RBD aka jungle1810

[ivor43]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Good Morning.
First, Jim.
I apologise. As I stated it was never my intention to upset anyone. You have contributed a lot useful info to this investigation, I hope you will continue to do so.
And yes I did see the Captain/Major thing. But as field promotions were a regular thing i did not see it as significant. In fact, with the situation on 27th when virtually all 2DLI’s officers were either POW’s or killed, I thought it quite normal. I would not have been surprised if senior NCO’s had been promoted to officers. It happened quite frequently.
Many field promotions were, Hostilities Only, so for his to be confirmed after the war might indicate he was a good officer who had earned it.
However I have no concern what his Rank may have been, nor really when he wrote it. What we have here is A Known Eye Witness Account. Ok, as it was written later it has to be treated with some caution, But it can not be ignored.
From the couple of Quotes I have seen on here. In one he seems to indicate that he saw Col Harrison heading north, this is totally at odds with The Red Dragon account.
Therefore it has to be investigated, we have no choice in this.
I am awaiting an answer to an email on this and depending on the answer I receive, if I get one, i may find myself with a very serious headache.
As I said evidence is needed to either prove or disprove a situation. We now must wait, as we are waiting for responses to John’s questions to his German friends.
This investigation has only been running a relatively short time, but we have received a huge amount of info. What we have to do now is sift through it, pick out what is relevant and discard the rest. This is where the independent thinking comes in. The rate at which we receive fresh info will slow down, but should not stop.

ivor

[Verrieres]

Good Morning.
First, Jim.
I apologise. As I stated it was never my intention to upset anyone. You have contributed a lot useful info to this investigation, I hope you will continue to do so.
And yes I did see the Captain/Major thing. But as field promotions were a regular thing i did not see it as significant. In fact, with the situation on 27th when virtually all 2DLI’s officers were either POW’s or killed, I thought it quite normal. I would not have been surprised if senior NCO’s had been promoted to officers. It happened quite frequently.
Many field promotions were, Hostilities Only, so for his to be confirmed after the war might indicate he was a good officer who had earned it.
However I have no concern what his Rank may have been, nor really when he wrote it. What we have here is A Known Eye Witness Account. Ok, as it was written later it has to be treated with some caution, But it can not be ignored.
From the couple of Quotes I have seen on here. In one he seems to indicate that he saw Col Harrison heading north, this is totally at odds with The Red Dragon account.
Therefore it has to be investigated, we have no choice in this.
I am awaiting an answer to an email on this and depending on the answer I receive, if I get one, i may find myself with a very serious headache.
As I said evidence is needed to either prove or disprove a situation. We now must wait, as we are waiting for responses to John’s questions to his German friends.
This investigation has only been running a relatively short time, but we have received a huge amount of info. What we have to do now is sift through it, pick out what is relevant and discard the rest. This is where the independent thinking comes in. The rate at which we receive fresh info will slow down, but should not stop.

ivor
Hello Ivor
No need to apologise mate I`m not upset far from it I enjoy this discussion too much.You correct me and I will correct you thats the way we proceed towards the truth as you have rightly said its facts that count and together with the help of the members of this forum we will,hopefully,get Tony the answers he has been searching for for so long.Lifes too short to get upset so heres to a healthy and fruitful discussion.
Eye witness .Ivor...there must be someone alive out there who has our answers.I know of a 2 DLI Sgt who joined them just after Dunkirk I thought he may know someone but he doesnt ,unfortunately.In the book the Search for Tom by George Rodgers ,George came up with a load of information which then turned out to be related to the main battle and not D and B Companies actions at the`Other` bridge he was seeking if someone here knows George (I know he received a lot of help from RWF in his search for his brother) perhaps they could contact him on Tonys behalf and see if he has anything that will help us progress?
Best
Jim

[Verrieres]

Ivor,
I have noted your interest in Lt Colonel Harrison and have always skirted around it as I did not think it would benefit Tonys search for Anthony..however..your persistance got me looking into the Lt Colonels death and I found something of interest to possibly Tony and yourself.


At the St Venant bridge where some fierce fighting had taken place everything was still pretty much as it had been when Monsieur Berthe returned home to his cafe.It was about a hundred metres away from the locks;" When we returned on Wednesday 29th May we found three dead English soldiers.One was in the cellar and he had been shot in the back but had obviously died in considerable pain .His name was Thomas Puntin.There was another at the bottom of the shed his name was John Evans.Lieut Colonel Harrison was in a ditchnext to the ???????(not translated).Between the garden and the road there was an English Tank.There were three soldiers inside;one of them was still gripping his pistol.A short while later when the German lorries went past we heard a shot.The Germans had set fire to this vehicle.At the corner of the house there was also a vehicle,with a machine gun inside there was one dead soldier.Four other British soldiers were dead above or on top of the ??????(untranslated).My father buried them in the trench they had dugA destroyed Bren gun carrier was parked opposite the Coal Merchants.Six dead Germans were buried opposite the house

I know that Thomas Puntin (The lad shot in the back )was 2 DLI Son of George and Ada Puntin, of Gateshead, Co. Durham; husband of Kathleen I. Puntin, of Dunston, Gateshead. John Evans I believe was Drummer John Arthur Norman Evans RWF.The Lt Colonel was of course Son of Brigadier-General Robert Arthur Gwynne Harrison, C.M.G., Three times mentioned in Despatches, and Alice Harrison, of King's Worthy, Hampshire; husband of Jeannette Marion Harrison, of Denbigh. Now heres the killer question who were the others in the grave.My opinion of the tanks is they could have all been Bren carriers but thats just an opinion.I think this field grave should be under serious consideration as a possible in regard to Anthony and we must take into consideration that these named casualties were moved to Haversque.The majority of the 2 DLI exhumed in 1941-42 were buried at St Venant Communal Cemetery.At Haversque there are four DLI all 2nd DLI and all killed on the 27th May 1940. I need to explore this more carefully but unfortunately I have to go to work any thoughts on this at all.Positive or Negative all appreciated and well received.

Best

Jim

[Baconwallah]

Source please, Jim?

John

[Verrieres]

Source please, Jim?

John
Sorry John Thought you had this one St Venant-Robeqc Part V The Return Pg 77 Faivre.1996

Best
Jim

[Baconwallah]

I have it (and sent it to you). But I think it will help the discussion if we clearly identify out sources each time we come up with something.

Re your original post: you said "Now heres the killer question who were the others in the grave."

The only grave I see mentioned here is the one with six Germans. The British dead mentioned are inside the house, in Bren carriers or ditches, and could evidently be inspected and i several cases identified by the locals.

The presence of Tony's uncle here is extremely unlikely as the scene described is north of the St Venant bridge, about a hundred metres north of it. That is not consistent with Goddard making him comfortable on the canal bank. Unless he either crawled that way from where DLI HQ was, or was carried towards the front line by someone else. Can't see that happening myself.

John

[ivor43]

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Great piece of detective work, I am very pleased. Possibly a fresh lead. Keep digging my friend.
This is the sort of thing I mean when I talk of creative thinking.
But surely this puts this location back to the south of the canal.As the locks are to the south of the old river bed.
John. In view of this evidence re the Col, do you think we should proceed with a certain amount of caution. Until we know what it is exactly about. Maybe by PM?

Ivor.

[chow]

Ivor.
In view to the amount of views this thread has had and we have talk about this in person,
putting any part of the investigation underground just deprives viewers the opportunity to reply with as you put it "out of the box thinking"
I personally am as you know very interested in the outcome.
so please keep this open to all.
thanks.
Steve.

[Baconwallah]

The untranslated word in your quote, Jim, is coron, cottage. I think it is fair to assume that this refers to one of the cottages north of the bridge, mentioned in the YDG account ("The RWF were about thirty to forty strong. Of these, perhaps half were with the CO and Captain Clough-Taylor at the south end of the bridge, while the remainder were with the second-in-command in the cottages at the north end.").

Ivor, why would this put the location back to the south of the canal? Col Harrison, mentioned here as one of the victims found, was killed after crossing the bridge.

John

[ivor43]

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From the way it is written, I assumed it to be to the south side of the Lys. Surely anyone living to the north would have said 100 meters from the river. also we know there was a temporary bridge over the canal to the island but was there a bridge from the island to the north bank. Would not the journey from the locks over the road bridge be more than 100 meters.
Chow, some posts ago I made a comment regarding the death of Col Harrison which was misunderstood. And I was advised by ap1 to be careful not to cause offence to the relatives of the Col.
My concern is that if we do find something that is not in accord with the accepted record, would it not be correct procedure to advise the family of our findings before making them public.
Advice please.

Ivor.

[Baconwallah]

Ivor, in an earlier post I already stated that the temporary Pigeau No.3 bridge built by the French engineers was 159.5 metres long. That carried it across the canal, the river bed and the island. Measure the distance in Google Earth if you do not believe me.

The river at this point is frequently referred to in French accounts as the northern arm of the Lys canal. Both arms had locks. The northern lock does not exist any more, it has been replaced by a weir.

So far we have not found anything not in accordance with the existing records.

John

[chow]

Ivor.
My thoughts were purely in mind of the first post,
the thread seems to have deviated a bit from the mission.
I f you are now looking into Mr Harrison then that should be kept separate..
The post by verrieres seems the way to go, with out other information at the moment.

steve.

[jungle1810]

Hello all,
Not wishing to muddy the waters , I have found an old e mail dated 01/01/2006, I had a sent a query to the Wilfred Owen Association and the last paragraph comments on the church at St Floris where Sassoon was in action 7th July 1918 (25th R W F) our cap badge is engraved on the church wall in St Floris Church ( as one would expect the word was spelt WELSH ) The e mail goes on to say a sad and moving sight is the grave of Lt Col Garnett 's son who was killed in action in a Bren gun carrier by the church on the 23rd of May 1940 the victim of a German anti tank gun sited just around the corner of the church A co-incidence but another face and time and place re the retreat to Dunkirk
truth is some times stranger than fiction.
Regards R B D aka jungle1810

[Verrieres]

I have it (and sent it to you). But I think it will help the discussion if we clearly identify out sources each time we come up with something.

Re your original post: you said "Now heres the killer question who were the others in the grave."

The only grave I see mentioned here is the one with six Germans. The British dead mentioned are inside the house, in Bren carriers or ditches, and could evidently be inspected and i several cases identified by the locals.

The presence of Tony's uncle here is extremely unlikely as the scene described is north of the St Venant bridge, about a hundred metres north of it. That is not consistent with Goddard making him comfortable on the canal bank. Unless he either crawled that way from where DLI HQ was, or was carried towards the front line by someone else. Can't see that happening myself.

John

Hello John,

Sorry I would have added the source and I acknowledge the fact that it was indeed your good self who sent me the document which is why I presumed.wrongly that having read the document you would have been aware of its contents.The information was posted for Ivors attention re-Harrison but I will quote sources when available.Again I apologise.
The Grave is not the German one but the British who were buried in their trench by this Frenchmans father only three are named in the account whilst there are at least eleven in total.It would be Good if we could identify if all these were `known` or were some `innconnu`.
I do not know if this will have a bearing on anything but I will attempt to identify the Companies these DLI at Haversque came from.One casualty Captain Chipchase was recorded just prior to the move at St Venant as detached serving with 2nd Division in what role I do not know.On a similar topic Capt Townsend was seconded to 6th Brigade(May 1940) Hq when he returned to 2 DLI is not recorded. (Source Diaries and Reg History National Archives WO 197 Series France and Belguim 1939-40 )

best
Jim

[Baconwallah]

I was aware of the contents, Jim, and recognised the quote. I just wanted to draw your attention to adding sources to quotes or statements to make the information accessible to others. We should try to do that from now on, I believe.

You are right and I misunderstood your "the grave" remark. But from the description of the bodies I do not think any of them could have been Tony's uncle - apart from being on the wrong side of the Lys.

John

[ivor43]

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That confirms the RWF account. When they were approaching St Floris they had 2 carriers leading as they came around a left hand bend they came under fire. One was burned out and I think it named those killed. Good confirmation of the date, always good.
Chow.
Noted mate, but be sure of one thing we are still working to the same end. However this is not going to be a straight road, I never believed it would. But what I am trying to do is eliminate or confirm the evidence of Major Townsend who was an eye witness, and has made a statement that conflicts with other accounts. This has to be sorted. I do not believe we have any other option.



ivor

[Verrieres]

I was aware of the contents, Jim, and recognised the quote. I just wanted to draw your attention to adding sources to quotes or statements to make the information accessible to others. We should try to do that from now on, I believe.

You are right and I misunderstood your "the grave" remark. But from the description of the bodies I do not think any of them could have been Tony's uncle - apart from being on the wrong side of the Lys.



Hello John,
Agreed sources to be named no problem.My idea regarding the Grave being a possibility was based on on the following sentence

By this time the armoured cars were almost at the cafe and although I waved to the men inside I realised they could no more come out than I could go to them across an open space..Source;- Townsend Diary May 27th 1940
With reference to the Cafe in this sentence and the reference to Monsieur Berthe ;-Source Part V St Venant-Robeqc Pg 70

...when Monsieur Berthe returned home to his cafe...
I had hoped that this could have been one of the Field graves from the last stand? However and forgive my ignorance on such matters if you are stating that Colonel Harrison was killed on the other side of the Canal that may or may not rule this out but I am not yet convinced.If I have got this right and this is my simplyfied version Lt Colonel Harrison and Clough Taylor were the last to cross ,Clough Taylor was wounded? The Lt Colonel waited until he was sure Clough Taylor was safe ordered the Bridge destroyed but it could`nt be as there were no RE ? The Lt Colonel turned to make his way up the Haversque Road ? A German Tank appeared opened fire and the Good Lt Colonel was killed? If this is basically right I have a few questions
.How far away was the Colonel when he was killed was he just across the Bridge ?
Was he well up the road?
How was he found in a trench near M.Berthe cafe.If he was machine gunned on the road ? Presumably if he had been in the trench originally then the tank would have been unlikely to have harmed him in fact I believe the RWF Doctor Lundie? escaped using the trenches and ditches?
What I am really saying is this..is there any possibility that the Lt Colonel was killed either at the very end of the bridge or actually on it? The advancing Germans who I assume would normally run down the dead/wounded ahead of them rather than hold up an advance for any humanitarian reasons would I believe realise through his rank badges that this body in front of them was a Lieutenant Colonel in the British Army and maybe just maybe drag him just back far enough out of the range of the British Soldiers still firing at them from the building on the opposite end of the bridge (Pg 69 St Venant-Robeqc M.Faivre) to quickly search the body then throw him into the trench near the cafe?...I know we might never know but is it possible or has my limited to non existance knowledge of all matters RWF missed some glaring fact.

Best

Jim

[Baconwallah]

Jim, the café meant by Townsend was at the junction of Rue des Amusoires and Rue de Saint-Floris/Rue Jean Moulin.

Re the death of Col Harrison, this is the account in Y Ddraig Goch [1954], based on eye witness accounts:

"By this time, the DLI Headquarters appeared to have fallen, and whilst the thinning out process was
occurring across the bridge, the enemy tanks were advancing towards the bridge, down the road past the
cemetery, firing at almost point blank range. As the men had come back in twos and threes they had been
collected by the second-in-command, formed into sections under an NCO, pushed into a roadside ditch,
and set off on a long crawl across the fire-swept ground towards the rearward RV given by the Brigade
Commander.
When all were clear of the bridge, the enemy tanks had nearly reached the far end. The CO now gave
orders for the bridge to be blown up and it was then discovered that the sapper demolition party
were no longer present. They had been seen about fifteen minutes earlier, but whether they had
withdrawn or become casualties is not known. The one certain thing was that the bridge could not now
be destroyed and that there was nothing to prevent the enemy tanks from following the remnant of the
Battalion over the canal.
The leading enemy tank showed a strange hesitancy about crossing the bridge. Possibly the crew
suspected a trap or perhaps were incredulous of the fact that the defenders now had no anti-tank weapons
with which to oppose them. In any case, there was an appreciable pause which enabled another section
to be despatched down the ditch. At last, the leading tank rolled forward across the bridge. Every weapon
which the enemy could bring to bear was now firing on the cluster of cottages. The tanks, once over the
canal, made short work of the few remaining defenders. In the last flurry of disorganised fighting,
Colonel Harrison met his death by a burst of machine-gun fire, fired at short range. Soon the enemy tanks
were deployed on either flank, going forward across the open ground."

In short, he was killed while attempting to withdraw down a roadside ditch from the cluster of cottages at the northern end of the bridge.

Lt Lundie was captured at his Aid Post [info also from YDG].

Northern France at the time was littered with roadside café's. The one Townsend described was, according to M Faivre, owned by M Taverne.

John

[ivor43]

Jim
Whilst this may rule out the Col, it by no means rules out Anthony who we know was to the south.

ivor

[Verrieres]

Thank you John, for that much more detailed report on Harrisons demise he was indeed,it appears,on the opposite bank.Now another question ? Are we sure that the RSM and Anthony Corkhill were not also on that side of the canal?

A Verbal message came up that Colonel Harrison of the RWF whose HQ was a little further along the bank towards the bridge,wanted Colonel Simpson.As the CO had recently been to the RWF`s HQ talking to Bde Hq by wireless and not knowing exactly where he was I crawled back to see Colonel Harrison.He said the position was untenable and that he was taking what men he could to form a bridgehead.I was to bring back any men I could.
I sent Lyster-Todd and some men back at once and crawled forward as far as the cemetery.Here I found CSM Burkitt and Pte Worthy...source Capt Townsends diary
In earlier posts we learned that RSM Goddard attempted to get his transport across the bridge according to M.Faivre St Venant-Robeqc it was like this

Sergeant Major Goddard desperately tried to move the battalion headquarters vehicles and lead them towards the bridge whilst others errected barracades on the road.The vehicles were hit and burst into flames..

The interesting point or phrase here is ` lead them towards the bridge ..` he led,from the front was he in the lead vehicle did he actually make it across the bridge...not according to M.Faivres report as he said `the vehicles were hit and burst into flames` now heres my question ...All of the vehicles burst into flames or some of them it does not state which.From my tiny knowledge of Tank warfare and what happened later in the war at Villiers Bocage..if you have a column of vehicles by taking out the front and back vehicles you have the remainder trapped to pick off at will,these roads in 1940 would have been narrow the surrounding countryside was boggy and wet (Sgt-Major McLanes escape to the Canal across boggy ground).If this were done then the RSM who was `leading`his vehicles would have been one of the first casualties..we know he was not do we then summise that the vehicles were hit by indescriminate artillery fire which set onfire some but not all of the vehicles..those at the rear of the RSM..preventing him from going anywhere but across the bridge.Burning vehicles on a narrow road form one hell of a barrier! Would the RSM have ordered the vehicles onward and returned to his HQ..possibly but doubtful as his escape route back is blocked by burning vehicles more likely a scenario is he is the RSM a long serving soldier of good stature admired by officers and men alike he has been ordered to get his vehicles away(He has not decided this on his own iniative!) hes lost some but hes going to do his damn best to carry out his orders..and he does he proceeds across the bridge. A little more from Capt Townsends diary

The RSM moved some of the vehicles from HQ back across the bridge
According to Townsend he actually moved some back..not attempted..moved some..not all, were some destroyed as M.Faivre suggests.Going along with my scenario this now puts the RSM on the other bank..possibly in one of the cottages mentioned by John ..giving covering fire.Remember the Germans had the British in a crossfire as stated in earlier posts having established LMG on the far bank..the RSM attempting to return would have been cut down.To add weight to the arguement that some vehicles got over the bridge following Lt Col Harrisons death.A small counter attack was put in by Lyster-Todd, whom Townsend had ordered back across the bridge ....

at 1630hrs by the last three carriers from The Durham Light Infantry commanded by Lt Lyster-Todd were despatched to head off the enemy Source St Venant-Robeqc M.Faivre Pg 70
So some vehicles had escaped as demonstrated by the ability to put in a counter attack using albeit just three carriers.So could the RSM have been on the far bank..Possible?
Now Anthony Corkhill could he too have been on the far bank?...remember Capt Townsend `s order to `bring back any men I could`The Captain met with Lyster-todd from his diary "I sent Lyster-Todd and some men back at once " ...some men ...? Could Anthony have been amongst them? Lyster Todd made it back across...he led the counter attack...did Anthony also make the journey across...by this time the DLI HQ was ablaze Colonel Simpson was in a slit trench nearby..was Anthony Corkhill one of the men sent back...was he wounded on the `other side` did the RSM see Anthony on the canal bank as he was marched away from the last defence of the bridge from the cottages following Lt Colonel Harrisons death.I know its all ifs and buts but if this is a real possibility does that not put that British Grave back into the `possibility` catagory?
Best
Jim

[Baconwallah]

A valid point, Jim. We shall probably never know the truth.

If the RSM "moved some of the vehicles across the bridge" he may well have gone back for more, which would put him on the south bank once again. Unfortunately the RWF account in YDG does not mention the evacuation of DLI vehicles at all so it makes us none the wiser.

If the RSM actually crossed to the north bank, would he have taken his batman or would he have left his batman at HQ to help in the defence? In evacuating vehicles the services of a batman would not have been needed.

The DLI HQ position was on the tow path and the bank. The cottages north of the bridge were at least some 50 metres away from the bank, as the bridge was 160 metres long and must have extended some way past the northern bank of the Lys. If the RSM then made Anthony comfortable on the bank, he must have carried him some way and in my opinion might then just as well have carried him across the bridge. The whole point of leaving him on the bank was that the terrain was difficult to cross and a man could not easily be carried. That sounds more like the HQ position to me.

The German stretcher bearers seen by the RSM would probably not have been in the firing line, and that is what the north end of the bridge was. But the tow path and field around the DLI HQ, where fighting had ended, would be a very logical place for them to be.

In my opinion the cluster of cottages is not a very likely place to look for Anthony. But we cannot rule it out entirely.

John

[Verrieres]

Hello John,
I really am rushing out to work so I will have to make this very brief. John I do not suggest that Anthony went with the RSM as you say he would be needed for the defence of the HQ.What I am trying to say in my own clumsy way is the RSM has already crossed with the Vehicles Tony at this point is left at HQ. When the order to fall back is given a group of approx 10 including Lyster-Todd and possibly Anthony escape over the bridge ..Anthony is wounded on the far bank...following the capitulation of the cottage defenders the RSM ,who was possibly one of them is marched off where he finds Anthony...making the possibility of the grave more interesting?
More later
Best
jim

[Baconwallah]

I see your point, Jim, and was wrong is assuming that Anthony and the RSM would have crossed together.

That does not alter my view that "making him comfortable on the bank" would have been an improbable solution, the bank being at least 160 metres from the cluster of cottages and not on the way to the rear - that would have been the bridge.

The most obvious interpretation I think is still the one with Anthony and the RSM on the tow path near HQ. Not that that increases our chances of success...

John

[ivor43]

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While I don’t know as much about this area as you guys I am staying quiet. But these last couple of posts have got me thinking. (probably a bad thing ). When the RSM and whoever ever else helped, were making Anthony comfortable would they have been able to give him Pain Killer. If his wounds, as believed by Goddard, were not serious. Then is there not a possibility that once the Pain Killer kicked in and under the cover of darkness, he could have made it across the bridge. This would obviously depend on the nature of the wounds, I they were only flesh wounds whilst they would have been still very painful he might have had some mobility. But where might he have gone from the bridge, I know there were several ditches in the area. Or might he have tried to carry on towards the forest where there were British troops.
Is there any indication of a Farm Boulet to the East or North East of Haverskirque.
I have read many accounts of RAF Pilots being shot down but evading capture for some time by hiding during the day and moving by night.
This might account for the fact that he seemed to have disappeared until the 29th when he is found and shot. It is a pity that we don’t know where he was when he was found, in a barn or outbuilding, maybe of Farm Boulet.
This might be worth some consideration.

Ivor

[Verrieres]

Just in and have read your post John and like you have said we will never know....but indulge me a little further the topography of the land is posing me problems as I have gone over these events so often for three years that its really like I can see it in my minds eye but whether my imaginative battleground and reality bear any resemblence I do not know.
I do not imagine that Anthony got anywhere near the cottages, in my scenario he has been wounded crossing that bridge be it North or South he has dragged himself to the relative shelter of the canal bank (North or South) The RSM has been in the last line the buildings and cottages which in time were overun by the Germans advancing through St Venant towards the Haverskerque Road making St Venant now the German rear. The Germans overun the British the Prisoners,including RSM Goddard,are marched away to the rear? Which is now back into St Venant across the bridge and presumably in full sight of both canal banks.Anthony cries out from the bank (What ever bank that may be) The rest we know up until the RSM is marched away.Anthony is left on the canal bank awaiting the German field ambulance.

Now I have two scenarios the first is simple Anthony is more seriously wounded than RSM Goddard thought and dies of his wounds and is left in situ by the Germans two days later M.Berthe returns (again depending where Anthonys body lies ) and buries what or who he can in the trenches along with Lt Col Harrison and those others previously named. The bodies are later removed to Haverskerque where they are all buried in row EE.CWGC confirm 20 unknowns from this period at Haverskerque.
Scenario two ;-Anthony as the RSM has describes is not seriously wounded he is left unguarded he isnt going to wait to go into a POW cage he drags himself off and hides (Either bank) The German Field ambulance arrives and theres no trace of Anthony hes crawled off.Two days later on the return of M.Berthe as per the account from M.Faivre 29th May 1940 (the day Anthony is reported to have died) German lorries pass M.Berthe hears a shot..The Germans had set fire to ...what did the Germans shoot? Anthony? Who had possibly been hiding nearby? According to St Venant-Robeqc M.Faivre at least three possibly four British Army soldiers were hiding in the ruins at least one is confirmed as DLI ..are one of these the witness who confirms Anthony had died on the 29th May 1940.Remember there was no investigation into Anthony being missing he is recorded as DEAD.Unfortunately there appears no record of the fate of these men they slipped away.Again the body is found and buried by M.Berthe .Yes I know I`m convincing myself that Anthony somehow ended up in that grave on the other side of the canal but it would explain how an expert French Historian like M.Faivre could not find any trace of Anthony Corkhill amongst his extensive St Venant records and his detailed autopsy reports which had aided in finding Tom Rodgers with a description of no more than Tall, Good build and a gap in his teeth like Terry Thomas!
M.Faivre was frustrated that he could not add to Tonys search...Could the reason be that M.Faivre could not find any information or a matching autopsy report because he never had Anthonys autopsy report to start with?These were for the men buried at St Venant whilst Anthony is actually in Haverskerque? Anyone know the Mayor of Haverskerque!

Best
Jim

[Baconwallah]

Good thinking, Ivor!

All men carried a single dose of morphine, if I'm not mistaken. Anthony could have taken his. But with German stretcher bearers already combing the area when the RSM left him, it is difficult to see how he would have been able to wait until dark before trying to escape capture. Also, with the bridge the only supply route for the Germans advancing on Haverskerque, it would have been a bad route to take, especially crawling in the dark. Even on a clear day the risk of being run over would have been great.

Supposing that he did so, and managed to get across the bridge, the only way north would have been along the roadside ditch, climbing over the occasional body, and it would have taken him straight into the midst of the German front line troops. Hiding in a house or shed and waiting for civvy help would have been a better choice.

In short, it's possble this is what happened, but the odds are against it.

John

[Verrieres]

Good thinking, Ivor!

All men carried a single dose of morphine, if I'm not mistaken. Anthony could have taken his. But with German stretcher bearers already combing the area when the RSM left him, it is difficult to see how he would have been able to wait until dark before trying to escape capture. Also, with the bridge the only supply route for the Germans advancing on Haverskerque, it would have been a bad route to take, especially crawling in the dark. Even on a clear day the risk of being run over would have been great.

Supposing that he did so, and managed to get across the bridge, the only way north would have been along the roadside ditch, climbing over the occasional body, and it would have taken him straight into the midst of the German front line troops. Hiding in a house or shed and waiting for civvy help would have been a better choice.

In short, it's possble this is what happened, but the odds are against it.

John


John how about he did as Ivor suggested attempted to crawl away and like you rightly pointed out didnt make it but did get as far as the other side? You know what I`m going to say next...M.Berthe arrived and put him in that grave!!

Best

Jim

[Baconwallah]

An overwhelming set of possibilities, Jim.

If Anthony crossed the bridge, he would have landed on the north side of the Lys quite some distance away from the bank - it was a long bridge, probably high enough to allow canal traffic, and that means that the bridge would have extended quite a bit beyond the bank or the access slope would have been too steep. Going from the bridge to the bank would then have meant moving away from his mates again. Of course it's possible, but I doubt it.

Assuming that Anthony did cross the bridge, your second scenario is interesting. I can find no argument against it.

Tony tells me that he had no useful reply from M Faivre, who then, later, told my friend that he could not find Anthony. So why had he not informed Tony? And in trying to find Anthony, did he look at the Ferme Boulet area only or did he also include HQ and the north bank in his search? Lacking a good channel of communication with M Faivre, it's impossible to say how his statement to my friend should be interpreted.

I included the email address for the Haverskerque Mairie in a previous post. I suggest Tony drops them a line.

John

[Baconwallah]

John how about he did as Ivor suggested attempted to crawl away and like you rightly pointed out didnt make it but did get as far as the other side?

It's his getting to the other side, across a bridge with heavy traffic, crawling in the dark, that worries me. If he actually did so, and got across, it must have been the miracle of the century.

John

[Verrieres]

Just for information purposes and to save a little time later should Tony wish to pursue an enquiry to Haverskerque.At the cemetery at Haverskeq there are twenty five known WW2 casualties and twenty unknowns.Our casualties which were named by M.Faivre are all buried in Row EE Row EE contains 31 Graves only thirteen are named graves.I will contact the CWGC to see if any of these `innconnu` have regimental markers/headstone rather than the plain `Known unto God` Headstones. This is a list of those who lie at peace in ROW EE. (We will remember them);-

ALDRIDGE, JAMES PETER
Rank:Private
Service No:5338050
Date of Death:25/05/1940
Regiment/Service:Royal Berkshire Regiment
1st Bn.
Grave ReferenceRow EE. Grave 13.
CemeteryHAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Harry James Aldridge and Mary Jane Aldridge, of Picket Twenty, Andover, Hampshire
COLLIER, KENNETH EDWARD
Rank:Lance Bombardier
Service No:914186
Date of Death:27/05/1940
Age:27
Regiment/Service:Royal Artillery
99 (The Royal Bucks.Yeomanry) Field Regt.
Grave ReferenceRow EE. Grave 26.
CemeteryHAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Edward and Daisy Collier; husband of Myrtle Irene Collier, of Ruislip, Middlesex.
DONALDSON, JOHN HENRY
Rank:Private
Service No:4444883
Date of Death:25/05/1940
Age:31
Regiment/Service:Durham Light Infantry
2nd Bn.
Grave ReferenceRow D. Grave 7.
CemeteryHAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Thomas and Beatrice Donaldson; husband of Winifred Donaldson, of Mill End, Rickmansworth, Hertfordshire
EVANS, JOHN ARTHUR NORMAN
Rank:Drummer
Service No:4192167
Date of Death:Between 26/05/1940 and 05/06/1940
Age:24
Regiment/Service:Royal Welch Fusiliers
1st Bn.
Grave ReferenceRow EE. Grave 3.
CemeteryHAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Alfred William and Bridget Evans; husband of Eleanor Evans, of Queen's Park, Wrexham, Denbighshire.
GODDING, VICTOR JAMES
Rank:Private
Service No:5332339
Date of Death:27/05/1940
Age:34
Regiment/Service:Royal Berkshire Regiment
1st Bn.
Grave ReferenceRow EE. Grave 23.
CemeteryHAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Ernest James Godding and Mary Godding; husband of Ethel D. M. Godding, of Slough, Buckinghamshire
HARRISON, HERBERT BERKELEY
Rank:Lieutenant Colonel
Service No:12194
Date of Death:27/05/1940
Age:43
Regiment/Service:Royal Welch Fusiliers
1st Bn.
Awards:M C
Grave ReferenceRow EE. Grave 1.
CemeteryHAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Brigadier-General Robert Arthur Gwynne Harrison, C.M.G., Three times mentioned in Despatches, and Alice Harrison, of King's Worthy, Hampshire; husband of Jeannette Marion Harrison, of Denbigh.
JOYNSON, PETER
Rank:Lance Corporal
Service No:5336849
Date of Death:25/05/1940
Age:19
Regiment/Service:Royal Berkshire Regiment
1st Bn.
Grave ReferenceRow EE. Grave 12.
CemeteryHAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Laurence Bright Joynson and Ethel Vera Joynson, of Warwick.
NEWTON, GERALD
Rank:Fusilier
Service No:4189917
Date of Death:Between 25/05/1940 and 30/05/1940
Age:25
Regiment/Service:Royal Welch Fusiliers
1st Bn.
Grave ReferenceRow EE. Grave 5.
CemeteryHAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of John and Elizabeth Newton.
PHILLIPS, ROY BRIGHTMAN
Rank:Second Lieutenant
Service No:124510
Date of Death:27/05/1940
Age:22
Regiment/Service:Durham Light Infantry
2nd Bn.
Grave ReferenceRow EE. Grave 22.
CemeteryHAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Theodore John Phillips M.B., B.S., and Hilda Ansom Phillips, of Tynemouth, Northumberland
PUNTIN, THOMAS
Rank:Private
Service No:4446397
Date of Death:27/05/1940
Age:33
Regiment/Service:Durham Light Infantry
2nd Bn.
Grave ReferenceRow EE. Grave 2.
CemeteryHAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of George and Ada Puntin, of Gateshead, Co. Durham; husband of Kathleen I. Puntin, of Dunston, Gateshead.
ROBERTS, GERARD BRIAN CHIPCHASE
Rank:Captain
Service No:50971
Date of Death:27/05/1940
Age:28
Regiment/Service:Durham Light Infantry
2nd Bn.
Grave ReferenceRow EE. Grave 30.
CemeteryHAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Lt.-Col. Gerard Chipchase Roberts, The Gloucestershire Regt. (killed in Action in France, 8th June, 1916), and of Winifred Milbanke Roberts (nee Hudson), of Hamsterley, Co. Durham.
SMITH, CYRIL STANLEY
Rank:Fusilier
Service No:4189967
Date of Death:25/05/1940
Age:25
Regiment/Service:Royal Welch Fusiliers
1st Bn.
Grave ReferenceRow EE. Grave 31.
CemeteryHAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Mrs. I. Smith, of Cardiff.
TINKLER, JOHN THOMAS
Rank:Lance Corporal
Service No:4455105
Date of Death:24/05/1940
Age:23
Regiment/Service:King's Own Royal Regiment (Lancaster)
6th Bn.
Grave ReferenceRow EE. Grave 4.
CemeteryHAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERY

Best
Jim