saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

[Baconwallah]

John.
You have me puzzled here.

the 3rd SS Pz Division was Totemkopf.


ivor

The SS Totenkopf Div was a 'normal' [oversized] infantry division which would be reorganised as 3 SS PzGrenadier Div Totenkopf in Nov 1942 and 3 SS PzDiv Totenkopf in Oct 1943. The 3 Pz Div I mentioned was a division belonging to the Wehrmacht, the regular army, and recruited mainly in Berlin. It advanced between St Venant and St Floris, overrunning 2 DLI and 1 RWF HQs and taking the bridge across the Lys.

John

[teecee1941]

John, Ivor,

Thank you both for your quick replies. The penny has dropped I say, somewhat sheepishly. I can now see that although a death cert was issued, it was issued retrospectively and we have no way of knowing how long after Anthony's death it was issued. Perhaps it was only issued because I applied for it and the same applies to other families whose relatives died in circumstances that were not straightforward. Economically, it would not make sense to produce a death cert for every soldier who died, so you only get one if you ask for it.

I understand that Anthony's name was removed from the payroll on the day he is certified as having died, 29/05/40. Five years later, on the 29/05/45, Anthony's father, (my grandfather) wrote to RSM Goddard to ask if there was any news of his son. He stated that the Red Cross had given him details of the capture of RSM Goddard and Anthony lying wounded on the canal bank. It does seem that by the end of the war he had not been told by the War Dept that his son was dead in spite of the fact that he had ceased to be on the payroll.

Nothing we can do about it now, but to me, there is something not right about the date of Anthony's death.

[ivor43]

Tony.

I don't think you need to be sheepish about anything. what we are trying to do is extremely difficult. Trying to put ourselves in the position of 1940 is almost impossible.
What you say about the issue of the Death Cert may well be true But They Must Have the Record of the Evidence. If he died a PoW, then the record would be German. or would the word of a repatriated Soldier be sufficient. i personally doubt it.
What i find very odd is that the parents had not been informed. that he was a PoW at least.
Now, with regard to the payroll. I hope John can enlighten us on this. What happened to his pay card or record. As a PoW was he still entitled to be paid. Physically he was not able to draw his pay so would the record be kept up to date or would it have been calculated if and when he returned based on last pay date ? It would seem to me that to keep up a record probably would have been a waste of time as it was not known what happened to these men.
This would make it seem that an entry saying Dead 29/5/40 entered some years later would seem to have been made at the time. But this still does not explain where the evidence came from. The only possible explanation that i can see is if he was murdered then he was subject of the War Crimes investigation. but it was not fully investigated. But there has to be a report somewhere. We hope.

ivor

[Baconwallah]

Ivor, as far as I know (which isn't too far, I grant you) back pay would be calculated and paid uopon a PoW's return to the UK. What the system was for PoWs who died in captivity I can only guess. They would probably have calculated the back pay based on the Red Cross notification of death.

And you're quite right: the death date of 29th May, official from Nov 1941, must have been the result of information received. The Who, How and Why continues to elude us. But that report is what we must search for.

John

[ivor43]

Good Morning.

The Red Cross. For some reason (Age :((.?) i have not given them a thought. But after the last 2 posts i did, and maybe a few pennies dropped.
Tony said
'' He stated that the Red Cross had given him details of the capture of RSM Goddard and Anthony lying wounded on the canal bank.''
and John
''They would probably have calculated the back pay based on the Red Cross notification of death.''
To what level would they have been operating in this area at the time. Did a RC representative actually witness Anthony on the bank, or was it reported to them by Goddard.
We have info that a number of PoW's were shot in hospital and their ''Dog Tags'' removed. This would mean that although they were ''Known'' to the hospital they could not be, officially, identified by anyone else. We are aware of 2 shot in St Venant on 27th and believe that 2 may have been shot in Calonne on 29th. If they had no ''Tag's '' would they be recorded as unknowns even though the hospital had records ?
This leads me to believe that the Red Cross did not Officially know of Anthony at the time, they would only have recorded a number of unknowns.
As John says the Official record was amended in Nov 41 which is, i suspect, when the records were handed over to the authorities clearing the field Graves. This does not explain, why when the record was amended in 41 that his parents were not informed.
i think that a hospital file would have been sufficient evidence that he was dead.
i believe that this is the file we need. i would assume that it would be with the rest of the info re the 41/2 clearances.

ivor

[Baconwallah]

The RC did not accompany the fighting troops, Ivor. Their involvement was administrative: both sides would give the RC lists of captured enemy personnel, for communication to the other side. Not captured, not in the books.

John

[teecee1941]

Can anyone tell me how to retrieve 'saved' messages. I have spent all night typing a reply. For the second time in a few days, the letters keep joining up and often refuse to type. There must be a gremlin loose in the Forum at the moment.

After getting to the end of my message, I clicked 'post' only to find that I was no longer logged in and the message had disappeared.

Thanks,

Tony

[teecee1941]

Good evening one and all,

Sincere apologies for not replying earlier but I have been waiting for a reply from my MP which has not been forthcoming. I went to see him on Saturday to tell him that I was not very pleased that it was a year since I first asked for his help and no progress had been made. I came out of the seven minute meeting with him a little more hopeful than I was and was satisfied when he told me that he would give the case priority and chase up Philip Hammond.

That paragraph has taken me 15 minutes to type. There is something amiss with this forum. The letters keep joining together and words are missing letters. Can anyone do something about it, please. I will continue this message the way it comes out.

I said thought it was a digace tatI was able t purchase soldiers Wills an Service Records but wenever there sanything that wafree, it cold not be found. I have been ld tobieve that a ot f the ecords were destroyed but it seems tha tey nagd to keep the ones that wee moey spnners for the Authoites.

Sorry, but I give up until this is fixed. Surely I'm not the only one to encounter this fault.


Tony

[dcdl12976]

I have the same problem plus usually the first time I try to type a message in the individual letters go DOWN the page instead of across

[Verrieres]

Hello Tony/Dave,

Exactly the same problem here however I believe it may be a conflict with IE11 rather than the forum itself .I now use Google Chrome to access the forum and there appear to be no issues when typing.
Hopefully your visit to the MP will spark something in the MoD. Fingers crossed,

Jim

[dcdl12976]

I hops so as well but lets not forget the MP,s will be getting ready for elections in a few weeks time and therefore any civil servant will be in Purdar for several weeks before and so may not be able to help him.

[teecee1941]

Thanks Dave/Jim

Ho Ho, looks like I've cracked it by using google chrome. God, what a nightmare it was last night typing away what was to end up like a pile of knitting. A couple of weeks ago, I spent more than an hour but cancelled and gave up.

Anyway, what I was trying to say yesterday was that I was slightly more hopeful after visiting the MP, even though he reported that nothing had actually been done. I managed to give him a bit of a rocket and said that I was not happy with the rate of progress. I told him that the MoD could always manage to find the documents whenever there is a charge and to date I have bought Anthony's Army Service Record, his death certificate and online access to his last will and testament. I have read recently that WW1 soldier's diaries and letters home are available. There'll be a charge, no doubt. It's strange how all the records that are free, have been destroyed or can't be found. My uncle gave up his life, fighting for this country, who now can't be bothered to send someone to investigate the circumstances of how and where he died.

I will give my MP a few weeks grace and then I'll be back in to see him, but next time I won't wait so long. If he drags it out a bit more, I'll be back in until he is sick of the sight of me. I'm not giving up now.

Thanks again for all your support. I will report back as soon as there is anything new.

Tony

[Baconwallah]

I will give my MP a few weeks grace and then I'll be back in to see him, but next time I won't wait so long. If he drags it out a bit more, I'll be back in until he is sick of the sight of me. I'm not giving up now.

That's the spirit, Tony.

John

[Baconwallah]

Never give up hope:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQLXrmAjD38

John

[teecee1941]

Never give up hope:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQLXrmAjD38

John

Thanks, John. That's a lovely story that certainly gets you thinking.

Tony

[chow]

Picked this off facebook...interesting though it may have no relevance to this thread..

From Nick Lock

Following up on earlier post of a Yeoman turned Royal Welchman, Private James Sinclair, 25 RWF, here is a modern photo of the 74th (Broken Spur) Yeomanry Division memorial at Saint Floris, Northern France. The 24th and 25th Battalions RWF, formerly Yeomanry Regiments, served in the Division and the RWF cap badge records this on the memorial. Sadly the village is linked twice with the RWF as in May 1940 the 1st Battalion fought a desperate action here against an SS Division. Many Royal Welchman gave their lives in the fighting and are buried locally. Right next to the memorial is a section of Royal Welchmen who were all killed next to the WWI memorial when their Bren Gun Carrier was destroyed by Anti-tank firing. Amongst the seven killed was Lieutenant John Garnett. He died on 23rd May 1940 aged 23. His father was Lt-Col W Garnett, DSO, DL, JP, formerly of The Royal Welch Fusiliers. The somewhat exocentric Garnett senior was featured in an earlier post and served in the 1st Battalion at the start of WWI. To have survived the Great War to have your son killed in the Second World War must have been a huge blow.
My Grandfather John James Mansfield Lock served in this Division but in the West Somerset Yeomanry. Gallipoli, Egypt, Palestine and Northern France.

[teecee1941]

Picked this off facebook...interesting though it may have no relevance to this thread..

From Nick Lock

Following up on earlier post of a Yeoman turned Royal Welchman, Private James Sinclair, 25 RWF, here is a modern photo of the 74th (Broken Spur) Yeomanry Division memorial at Saint Floris, Northern France. The 24th and 25th Battalions RWF, formerly Yeomanry Regiments, served in the Division and the RWF cap badge records this on the memorial. Sadly the village is linked twice with the RWF as in May 1940 the 1st Battalion fought a desperate action here against an SS Division. Many Royal Welchman gave their lives in the fighting and are buried locally. Right next to the memorial is a section of Royal Welchmen who were all killed next to the WWI memorial when their Bren Gun Carrier was destroyed by Anti-tank firing. Amongst the seven killed was Lieutenant John Garnett. He died on 23rd May 1940 aged 23. His father was Lt-Col W Garnett, DSO, DL, JP, formerly of The Royal Welch Fusiliers. The somewhat exocentric Garnett senior was featured in an earlier post and served in the 1st Battalion at the start of WWI. To have survived the Great War to have your son killed in the Second World War must have been a huge blow.
My Grandfather John James Mansfield Lock served in this Division but in the West Somerset Yeomanry. Gallipoli, Egypt, Palestine and Northern France.

Thanks, Chow,

When you say this may not be relevant, I think that it is just a story like this that could unlock the key to this mystery and set us on our way. The Authorities are offering very little help so the more unorthodox links we have the better.

Tony

[Verrieres]

A few weeks ago I was told by a good friend, Mr Brian Sims, of the existence of a Card index relating to Victims of War Crimes again at the National Archives arranged in Alphabetical order it was hoped ,despite there being no trace of Form Q 80, that the name of CORKHILL may be listed. Unfortunately this index has only two entries under `C` neither of them relevant. My thanks to Mr Brian Sims for his invaluable help. Another possibility eliminated the search continues

Jim

[dcdl12976]

That's a shame Jim but the information we need has to be out there somewhere,I still believe it is deliberately being witheld for some reason.

[Verrieres]

Tony has had a very encouraging reply from his MP the details I will not go into I will let Tony explain more, suffice to say at last they seem to be taking it more seriously.
I have been struggling to find words to simply express what we seek from the authorities then it hit me ..we do not have any fancy references or file numbers (except Q80) what we want plain and simple is.. a copy of the document that both the MoD (War Office) and CWGC accepted as proof of death on May 29th 1940..can it be put any simpler?

Best Wishes

Jim

[Baconwallah]

That's exactly it, Jim. And preferably uncensored.

John

[teecee1941]

Thanks Jim,

I think that is a great suggestion and I will be forwarding it to the MP in the next day or so. It is exactly what we are looking for, a straight answer. And like John says, uncensored. As soon as I get an answer I will let everyone know.

I think the latest reply from the MP is encouraging but there's a long way to go and once again it's all down to the hard-headedness of the MoD as to what sort of response I get.

Once again, it's fingers crossed. Is it ever anything else!

Tony

[teecee1941]

Hello again, everyone,

Sorry I have not been in touch for a while but I have been waiting to hear from my MP. His contact was not forthcoming so I went to see him at his monthly surgery last Saturday.

I am sad to say that there has been no progress at all and although my hopes were dashed, I realised that there is very little to be gained by getting involved in any sort of shouting match with him. The minute I tell him to stick his help, that is one more door firmly closed. I am convinced that in order to get the case considered by the MoD, I have to stick with it, no matter how long it takes.

He promised me that he was going to see the Minister today(12 May) to put the case forward 'in London' rather than remotely and it seemed as though he was intent on making some sort of impact, especially after I told him that I was receiving the same answers over and over again from the MoD. I said that I was not pleased that in about thirteen months, absolutely no progress had been made. He seemed to take note of my comments and said ''Right, let's see what we can do'' (I've heard that one before!)

For my parting shot, I asked him at what point should I abandon my optimism. He told me not to give up and he would do all he could.

Whether or not he was glad to see the back of me, I don't know but although there was no movement at all since I last met him, I was not as downhearted as perhaps I should have been. My plan now is this;- I will wait two or three weeks then write to him and ask only one question, what happened when he went to see the Minister (P Hammond). I intend to chip away until he is sick of me and hopefully we will eventually get a result.

Like I said earlier, the only way is to stick with the MP even if it takes a hell of a lot longer. It seems that the evidence or at least the documents which will do us any good are in the custody of the MoD and it is likely that the route is via the MP.

I will be in touch as soon as I can,

Thank you all,

Tony

PS I sent a reply to a message from AP1 but it seems that the system was not working properly and he may not have got my message. This is just to say that I have not ignored you Al.

[dcdl12976]

Shame this Tony but keep at it mate

[ap1]

Interesting sequence of pictures on the RWF Museum Facebook page….reposted onto the RWF Forum Facebook page…the final one below:

3405

[ivor43]

morning all.
Thanks Al, an interesting find.
I wonder, we have info that there was a ''temporary'' bridge over the canal, could this be it. allowing for poor translation. This would appear to be the access bridge to the Island where the Lock Keepers house was located.The vehicle is traveling from the island.
However, if my memory is correct, this type of bridge would have been moveable. to allow for clearance of barges as the lock filled. Some of these where in 2 halves. I wonder if the crane in the background may have been for lifting it.
It also appears that there are 2, either, steel girders or timber baulks along the length of the bridge which would restrict the width of the roadway. If i had been a tank commander i think i would have been very, very suspicious of this bridge.
Now, a bit of possible speculation. It would appear that the Lock Gate at this end is still intact. looking under the bridge you can see, what i believe to be the gate. again looking between the bits of the destroyed bridge, i believe the white areas to be water, if the lock gate had gone i do not believe it would have been this noticable.
OK. this little bridge may have got them onto the island, but what was between the island and the North Bank ???.


ivor

[ap1]

An aid:

3406

[dcdl12976]

Very useful map Al

[teecee1941]

Hello again, everyone,

Many thanks to Al, Dave and Ivor for the picture, map and comments. Sadly, Ivor's fine description of the workings of the bridge is a bit above my head, as always!

I heard from my MP recently but, for reasons of confidentiality, I am unable to say exactly what I have been told. This does not mean there has been any development, quite simply, there hasn't. All I can say is that I believe there has been an extra ounce of pressure put on the MoD and have been told that the MP will chase up the MoD for an answer before too long. I will wait two weeks, then get back in touch to ask for an update. I am determined to at least try and keep up the pressure.

Sorry to be reporting this 'non event' but I hope to back in touch in a couple of weeks. Thank you all once again for your interest.

Tony

[ivor43]

Hi All.
well now this is becoming rather interesting.
We have seen this map before early in this thread.It shows the Main Road crossing the canal, what it doe's not show is the fact that the river still flows to the North of the canal where,apparently is a Weir. The Keepers House is on an Island.
The Photo is somewhat confusing.
We have had evidence from a couple of sources that the bridge at St Venant was Mined but Not Blown. But quite obviously the bridge in the picture has been destroyed. So what bridge is being referred to as not being blown.
After further studying the bridge shown in the photo it reminded me of pictures of temporary bridges i had seen when was looking at the subject before.While,sadly, i can not, at the moment, find my earlier source the pic linked below is very similar.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WWII-German-RP-Engineer-Combat-Engineers-Pioneers-Build-Pontoon-Bridge-/320865579931?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab514339b

This is a German bridge.
Now, we know that the Germans had bridging equipment in the area for a day or so, as it was captured by the advancing RWF.
Looking at the photo it would appear that a fairly heavy, from the wheel tracks, vehicle had got to the edge of the canal. It may be a possibility that if as i suspect this was a German bridge then they would also have placed a bridge over the river to the North of the Island. Is this the temporary bridge mentioned in the records, which was not blown.



ivor

[Verrieres]

Possible the photo is out of its timeline? Could this be a 1944 image rather than a 1940?


Pte Anthony Corkhill
2nd Durham Light infantry
29th May 1940

Another year passes but you are never forgotten
RIP


Jim

[Baconwallah]

Possible the photo is out of its timeline? Could this be a 1944 image rather than a 1940?

You may well be right there, JIm. It looks as though the French bridge constructed in the winter of 1939-40 (background) has been destroyed and this is a temp construction on the spot where the old drawbridge was in 1940.

John

[ivor43]

Hi all.
Personally i doubt that it is out of context. I think that it is another instance that may show that the info we have may be suspect.


ivor

[dcdl12976]

I have been trying to ID the vehicle on the bridge as if we know the type it will give us a timeline for production and Country of manufacture and use.
The vehicle on the Bridge is a bit of an oddity to me im afraid it appears to be about the size of a jeep but the shape is all wrong, also it is unlike any British vehicle of early war that I have ever seen. In all honesty if the photo IS early war and in context the vehicles can only belong to three countries, France, Briton and German however if it is not in context and is late war we can add Canada to that list.

I shall continue to try to find out what the vehicle is as and when I get time

[dcdl12976]

Just found this on the net

And also: The hospital of Saint-Venant was caught between the two lines of German and Franco-British fire and was the scene of a bloody struggle, even in the same hospital courtyard 24, 25 and 26 May 1940. Located in the countryside, cut into a few hours of all communications with Outside, taken and retaken three times, in turn defended by the British and German troops, it had probably escaped complete destruction as urgent representations made ​​in full battle by the director and one of his assistants. Reduced due to lower men of military personnel had to face a tragic situation; asylum housed in effect in 2300 people, including 2000 patients, both civilian and military, both French and Belgian and English, for most victims of a bombing that destroyed 22 May half the town of Saint-Venant. We lamented at least 50 deaths, including those of the chaplain Louis Becque, sister Bethany Sainte-Madeleine and Jean Bonnet, mortally wounded May 26, 1940 in their ministry or service.

Shows us some of the problems with the hospital problem

[Verrieres]

I subscribe to the CWGC Newsletter this month they are asking for volunteers to file and catalogue their `vast` archive??? I thought they didn't hold any records? They also say if you are interested you can view their archives via appointment only this is what you can see todate.

http://www.cwgc.org/media/14251/ac_part_2.pdf

Jim

[Baconwallah]

Yes, I'd noticed the same in this month's newsletter. I know they have extensive records, have made use of them in Great War research, but it's the first official mention I've seen.

John

[Verrieres]

I`ve just heard that Arthur Willis, died at home 8 June 2014.aged 101 years He served with 2 DLI 1932-1938 and 1939-1946 he was at St Venant and although he could not shed any new light on the search was good enough to speak with Tony regarding the battle following his 100th Birthday.

RIP Arthur


Jim

[ivor43]

Morning all.

As you say, the Vehicle could be a clue to the timeline. Difficult to id as apart from the other Countries mentioned, it could be Austrian or Polish. Having had a closer look at this pic i wonder if the vehicle is a ''Staff Car'' as it appears that the 2 persons in the rear look to be sitting considerably higher than the Driver. Might narrow the field a bit.
will continue looking. But i wonder if similar vehicles would have been attached to the Bridging unit.


ivor.

[ivor43]

hi again.
The following link seems to be a good source of info. but sadly i can not find our vehicle, so it may well be a captured one

http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/ww2-weapons.asp

ivor

[Verrieres]

hi again.
The following link seems to be a good source of info. but sadly i can not find our vehicle, so it may well be a captured one

http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/ww2-weapons.asp

ivor

Hello Ivor,

From Kyle Hinson on the WW2 Talk Forum the vehicle has been identified as a Hotchkiss R15R Command & Reconnaissance 4x4 or a a Laffly V 15T.. Car built in 39-40 French manufacture 200 in total made and operated by the Germans following the fall of France. Production ceased after 1940.

Jim

[ivor43]

hi all.
Chow just linked this on F Book. While i have been on this site on a number of occasions i have not seen the attached photos. Photo 12 shows the Old Bridge structure which is the bridge from the North Bank, over the River to the island on which stands the Lock keepers Cottage.
So now we have the complete picture, this pic, 70 yrs later, of the Old Brick Bridge and the 1940 pic with the Staff Car crossing the Temporary bridge over the Canal.
http://www.webmatters.net/txtpat/?id=272

wonderful.

ivor

[Verrieres]

Hello Ivor,
I`m not sure which photo you are referring too but if it is the brick bridge with the Rodgers family commemoration then that isn't `our` bridge that's `D` Company 2 DLI and Royal Berks Bridge and not the one over the lock. In their book `In Search of Tom` reference is given to their initial search being in the wrong place as D Company (and remnants of B) 2 DLI fought at another bridge over the Guarbecuque Canal and not over the Lys at St Venant itself.(Hope this makes sense?)

Jim

[Verrieres]

Hello,

Tony will be along soon to tell you about his `Ministerial` replies to say they are disappointing and condescending is an understatement. Tony is being, understandably, diplomatic but if it was my right to reply I would word it something like this;-
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mr (MP),
I have received your reply and after due consideration I am of the opinion that I am once again being fobbed off with standard non relevant drivel. Every step you have mentioned are steps that any newcomer would receive on an initial enquiry direct to one of the departments and not one from a so called Ministerial level.
Yes I have undertaken research ,extensive research and it is because the files you have stated are either incomplete or at worst `doctored` that I have sought your help. I am aware of the CWGC stance, I know about the Corporal in the grave next to Pte Walt the very fact that his dates of death are estimated from the 1st May to the 31st May 1940 are in themselves impossible As hostilities began on May 10th the 2nd DLI RWF and R Berks were in Belgium not France so unless they drove their dead around for a month before burying them in a different country whilst fighting a frantic rear guard action then the dates are totally unbelievable ? I have indeed done my research it is obvious the Minister has not done his.
My request is a simple one I want a copy of the document the War Office sent to the CWGC confirming my uncles death. Simple isn't it? As the CWGC state themselves they do not know when the unknowns were killed thus they give a `between date` In Anthony Corkhills case we have a specific date THE 29th MAY 1940,SPECIFIC!! What document was forwarded on to the CWGC to be SPECIFIC?
I know the file references you have quoted but these are not the original file numbers, they are incomplete where are the rest? The NA do not know where Forms Q are that too is on their website on the Discovery page.
Everything you have forwarded to me is either available on a Google search or would be the first step the most green of amateur researchers would perform. I have been fobbed off by these organisations already that is why I turned to you, now whilst you seem to have accepted their lame excuses I do not It is clear to me that the sacrifice of this brave soldiers life means nothing to the Government of the country he fought for We at least refuse to give up on him!

Yours

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry I`m a little Peeved at present :(

Jim

[teecee1941]

Hello Everyone,

As Jim says, the reply is disappointing. Unfortunately, I am once again unable to say too much at this stage because there are issues that are still pending.

There is still very much to do, but I am still very hopeful of a favourable result.

Will be back in touch ASAP

(Still having a lot of trouble typing. Has taken about 20 minutes to type this)

[dcdl12976]

Tony keep pushing mate eventually someone will give up and give you the info you need (within the constraints of legalities of course)

Dave

[Verrieres]

Hello,
I`ve been a bit busy lately so I haven't been able to pop in as much as I would have liked but here`s a little bit of a puzzle for you

Last year the MoD sold off copies of Soldiers Wills at £10 a time, Tony applied for Anthony Corkhill`s a copy of what he received he kindly forwarded on to me `Army Form B.2089`
Army Form B.2089 was contained in a Soldiers Paybook if there`s no information on Anthony and he was never found..then how were they able to retrieve the Will from the paybook?

From the National Archives of Scotland;-

..He could write another will when issued with a new pay book, and if he died his most recent will would be retrieved from his pay book whenever possible. Known as a 'Short Form of Will'.


I do not know enough about these wills to do anything but speculate at this time but I doubt there would be two copies? Worthy of consideration ?


Jim

[ivor43]

hi all.
i think i am correct in assuming that a man would have kept his pay book on him at all times. or would they be kept at a HQ Bgd or Regiment.

[ap1]

He may have forwarded the will to the orderly room!
http://www.ab64.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/a12.htm

[dcdl12976]

possibility is that his paybook containing his will was full and therefore returned to Regiment and replaced by a new one, it is likely he would not bother doing a new will since the Regiment already had the original in there possession

[Verrieres]

Hello,
Some interesting comments there ,thank you, I read through some of our old posts and we have actually touched on the AB 64 Paybook before (posts around 520-530) Paybooks generally stayed with the soldier ,the wills? Were they detached? I do not know certainly the ones I have are intact but these soldiers survived the war.

I hate second guessing or scenarios but here`s one anyway;-

Anthony is dead (reasons undetermined possibly listed on Q80) he lies possibly with other `dead` someone (PoW, German, Doctor whatever) removes the personal belongings from the bodies to return them home AB64 included ,there is no need to document them in detail the dog tags will identify the casualty they are simply piled up and taken away possibly in a dated envelope or with dated correspondence to the powers that be stating this soldier died on 29th May 1940 etc (There is documented testimony about to say the Mayor forwarded possessions on to Lille?) Along comes the burial party who then find that for what ever reason (Left at home or erroneously removed as documented elsewhere) Anthony does not have his tags? No one knows which bodies the AB64 has came from and Anthony (and anyone else who was missing tags) are buried as innconnu (unknown). The AB64 finds its way home eventually via the Red Cross say in 1941 .The MoD receive the Paybook is it enough to declare a missing soldier as dead the correspondence would show the date ?(29th May 1940) The Paybook should then have been returned to the next of kin, but to do this would mean they would have awkward questions to answer as to the whereabouts of the body, is it easier to file it ? The soldier`s dead they know that ,why search further ?..that's why Anthony was never declared as a missing man and no subsequent investigation was undertaken because they knew?
The scenario has holes in it of course ,of the 27 men of 2 DLI listed on the Dunkirk memorial there are 7 Wills available to `buy`

Just for discussion and to keep the topic alive :)

Jim

[ivor43]

3726

Hi all.
the above was posted on the RWF Pals Facebook page earlier by Tony Denic. Tony tells me that it was painted in 1944 by a W S A Clough - Taylor whilst he was a P.O.W. can anyone shed any light on the possibility of the artist being any relation to Capt Clough - Taylor, reported KIA 26 May 40 in the withdrawal from St Venant. This may show the Capt being killed.
I think the Painting is interesting as i believe it shows the Cemetery just in front of the 4 Poplar Trees and the bridge does not look very strong, i am not sure i would want to be the first tank to try it.


ivor

[ap1]

Hi Ivor,

Clough-Taylor RWF survived, a talented artist, he drew the battle scenes from memory whilst a POW. Much of the account from the RWF involvement in St Venant came from his recollections after the war.

Read this little segment from "Dunkirk" https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=V7r-F7FxtrYC&pg=PT426&lpg=PT426&dq=clough-taylor+RWF&source=bl&ots=_2fAiaAu5j&sig=GD3FFJWh1MHMIV7W0_6YVZ4jHzQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FRziVJPmJaHa7gaf2IGADA&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=clough-taylor%20RWF&f=false

[ivor43]

hi.
Thanks for clearing that up. i was sure i had read somewhere that he had been wounded on the bridge.
But the WD said KIA.

[Baconwallah]

The picture shows the old bridge across the lock. The French built their big bridge just to the West of it because the old one could not take heavy traffic. The view is from the big bridge looking East.

John

[Verrieres]

Hello,
Its been awhile since I updated the search the reason being there has been little progress with the now standard "Sorry we do not hold that information" or "We hold nothing further on WW2" etc. Then a glimmer of hope the National Archives announced the release of WO416 Unknown (British and Commonwealth soldiers) who died in the Germans hands/captivity...unfortunately someone complained regarding the personal information some of the papers contained and ..you guessed it..they closed the file again pending a review! Will it be re-opened? Will it be sealed for another 70 years..or will it be censored ..sorry sorted taking out any "personal" info?

Jim

[dcdl12976]

So yet another door opens and then immediately closes to us at least for the time being.

May have been someone with a lot of pull who complained as my experience is they don't take much notice of the averidge bod

[Verrieres]

Quick update. Some good news it appears the press are going to run Pte Anthony Corkhill`s story I cannot say too much as I need to speak with Tony about a couple of things first.

Quick update. Some bad news Mr Ian Goddard son of the RSM who last saw Anthony on the Canal Bank in St Venant has passed away in New Zealand. Sincere condolences to his family at this sad time RIP


Best Wishes

Jim

[Verrieres]

Hello,
I have spoken with Tony and he fully supports the newspaper articles. The reporter has been in touch again today for a photo of Anthony Corkhill documents etc and they have been working on the story today after talking with Tony and his family this morning. They will return to work on Sunday and present the story and secure a publication date . More as it develops.

Jim

[dcdl12976]

It will be interesting to see if they can get anywhere or if the story will disappear without trace

[Verrieres]

Hello

Update ;- No contact I`m afraid from the Newspapers but Tony informs me they have published it anyway, its not the version I sent them and there`s some glaring mistakes particularly in the Anniversary year but as they say "any publicity is good publicity". Newspaper version online at

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/newcastle-mans-fight-solve-75-year-old-9141598

The original text I sent them from 2013 just for a comparison


On the 15th May 1940 Richard Annand of the 2nd Durham Light Infantry won the British Army`s first VC of the second World War yet less than twelve days later this fine battalion were fighting for their lives in the small French Town of St Venant.
On the 27th May 1940 the German Army and units of the Waffen SS drove on relentlessly towards the beleagued British troops gathered around Dunkirk.In their way were men of the British 2nd Infantry Division of which the 2nd Durhams were part.
Amongst the Durhams that day was a 25year old lad from Scotswood, Private Anthony Corkhill,a pre- war regular who had already seen service on the North West Frontier ,India and in the Sudan, was born on May 31st 1912 one of five siblings having three brothers and one sister. The family consisted of Joseph , Anthony ,sister Edith ,Thomas and Robert
Anthony Corkhill was born in Birkett Street, which was considered one of the worst places to live in Wallsend with up to four families sharing an outside toilet and slum conditions throughout the house.
With only two years difference in age, brothers Joseph and Anthony were inseparable and both attended the Western School in Wallsend. Shortly after the birth of their youngest brother,Robert the two brothers came home from school to find that their mother, who had been suffering with severe post-natal depression had incredibly been taken away to what was then known as Morpeth Lunatic Asylum.
It is unlikely that the boys ever saw their mother again and were raised by their maternal grandmother and their Aunt Rosie Kilpatrick who later married Tom Winship a professional football with Arsenal in the 1920s. Anthonys mother spent the rest of her life in the asylum and died in 1928. She was just 42 years old.
A daily routine for the two lads from the time of their mother's hospitalisation was searching the pubs in Wallsend to find their father in order to get him to send money to their granny so that she could buy food. It was a short time later in 1931 that Anthony Corkhill decided to join the Army enlisting into the Durhams in June 1931.
Nine years later Anthony Corkhill found himself fighting with the 2nd DLI alongside men of The Royal Welch Fusiliers and The Royal Berkshire Regiment. You will find little written in the History Books regarding the Battle of St Venant which is strange considering the ferocious nature of the encounter and the great loss of life which occured here.
The small communal cemetery in St Venant holds 177 casualties from the conflict included in this are 90 British soldiers exhumed from a mass grave of which 40 souls still remain `known unto God`. The small well kept plots contain 70 soldiers of The Durham Light Infantry.
On the evening of the 27th May 1940 the battle for St Venant ended. As the few surviving prisoners were being marched away into captivity Regimental Sergeant Major Archie Goddard ,heard a voice call to him fron the canal bank it was Anthony Corkhill who was wounded in both legs and the neck. The RSM begged the Germans to take Anthony Corkhill with them,they refused,there was no way of carrying Anthony over the rough terrain and the Germans ordered the RSM to leave Pte Corkhill for the Germans own Field Ambulance units which were operating in the area.
As the prisoners were led away none of them realised they would never see Anthony Corkhill again. On the 27th May 1940 Anthony Corkhill simply dissappeared. No record was ever found of him being treated by the Germans,no record was ever found of his capture,so what happened to Anthony Corkhill?
The mystery deepens with the date of Anthony`s death officially given as 29th May 1940 two days after the last reported sighting or was it. The Commonwealth War Graves list Anthony as having no known grave commemorated on the Dunkirk Memorial with a date of death recorded as 29th May 1940. On what evidence was the date based on? According to the CWGC they do not hold this information it was provided by the relevent Service Authority at the time. A check on files relating to Durham Light Infantrymen reported missing during the campaign in France in 1940 shows there was no investigation into Anthony Corkhill the file lists him simply as `dead` a Q80 reference is scribbled next to his name.
A casualty card received by the family shows a date of death of May 29th 1940 as do his service records and his pension date.A further entry in the DLI Non Effective Book also reads `Died in France 29th May 1940`.What evidence is held that covers the two days from the RSM`s meeting with Private Corkhill and his date of death? The family are convinced there is another account, a missing piece in the puzzle of Anthony Corkhills death.
This is a mystery which has haunted the Corkhill family for nearly 73 years each generation since have sought to find additional information and each in turn have been frustrated by a seemingly lack of official documentation on the casualties at St Venant. Today the search is headed by his nephew also Anthony (Tony) Corkhill. Tony watched his father Joseph search in vain and ultimately die in despair without making any headway in the search for answers.
War crimes files held at The National Archives include some horrific cases of British soldiers murdered in and around St Venant in May 1940 the Corkhill family are also aware that returning Prisoners of War completed questionaires which included a section to report any mistreatment or war crimes . These details were entered on a Form Q.Does the Q80 reference refer to such a form? These are questions the Corkhill family are hoping can be answered by the Ministry of Defence after a direct request was made to them this week for the release of any information still held relating to the Battle of St Venant and the last days of Anthony Corkhill. The Corkhill family have also forwarded a copy of their enquiry to ther local MP in the hope that he will fully support them in the search for answers.
The story took another unexpected turn recently when it was discovered that only one other man was recorded as dying at St Venant on the 29th May 1940 another DLI soldier Pte Syd Walt originally from Sunderland died two days after receiving wounds at St Venant he rests within the Communal cemetery at St Venant in the next grave is one of the 40 unknown British Soldiers `Known to God`. Is there a survivor of St Venant still out there who knows the truth about Private Corkhill?


Jim

[dcdl12976]

I really hope this jogs some memories and proves to the powers that be that this aint going away

[Verrieres]

Whilst waiting for the News article I decided to send this to the MoD;-


Sent: 30 April 2015 14:42
To: DBS KI-RecordsPubEnqTeam (MULTIUSER)
Subject: FOI
Dear Sir/Madam,
Would you please advise on the availability of Forms Q used for reporting war
crimes and mistreatment of British Soldiers during WW2. I am aware that some
extracts were released to the National Archives however the original `Forms Q`
were not. The National Archives state "Forms 'Q' were not kept with the main
report, but passed to the appropriate Allied authorities investigating alleged
war crimes". The particular Form Q I am enquiring about is numbered `Q 80` and
deals with events at St Venant France between May 24th-June 1st 1940 I believe
the series starts at Q57 and runs to Q80.
During my research into one particular soldier `Form Q80` is quoted against his
name along with the word `DEAD` his last sighting was on May 27th 1940 wounded
at St Venant. There are no further records but a date of death is given as May
29th 1940. The `Missing Men` files which the MoD released to the National
archives show no indication of any investigation or enquiry into this soldiers
whereabouts but he does get a single mention with his name, number and `DEAD Q
80` It is obvious to me and I am sure you will agree that Form Q80 was enough
for the authorities and service departments to accept this soldier died on May
29th 1940 and the details contained on this form I believe will give us the
information needed to find the general area in which his body was buried at
present he is recorded on the Dunkirk Memorial.


If Form Q 80 War Office: Directorate of Military Intelligence is still held I
would like to apply under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and 1998 Data
Protection Act to have it made accessible. Thank you.
The soldier in question was a member of The 2nd Battalion The Durham Light
Infantry.
Thank You
Yours Faithfully


Today I received a not too unexpected reply which does not in my opinion answer the direct FOI request:-

Thank you for your email
I have been asked to reply that any information that has survived will be at the National Archives.
Kind regards
Carl
MOD DBS Records Office

As the reply took less than four working days it is obvious that no search was made,my reply to them;-

Dear Carl,
Thank you for the standard reply which does not answer my FOI request.I was requesting the documents from yourselves as they were not,as stated, passed to the National Archives possibly for the reasons set ot here.
The Forms Q series of papers deals with the killing and mistreatment of British soldiers in WW2 as these are classed as `personnel documents` I think they would fall into the category for `permanent preservation`.
According to your own literature to warrant permanent preservation the documents contain either "Codeword material, Service Personnel records , Operational Records and Sensitive information "? Your own selection criteria in the 2014 report even states "Records (for example, evidence, transcripts, reports) of tribunals, commissions, inquiries or inquests that were of particular public interest or had a significant impact on policy or process" The series of `Q Forms` falls into every category.
The Q Series has `extracts` at the National Archives to produce an extract then the file from which it has been `extracted` must exist?
These files I detail the loss, circumstances and mistreatment of the British Soldiers are we to assume these records were not `deemed` to be worthy of `permanent preservation` despite your own guidelines? If this is true there must be documentation regarding the specific instructions to have this series of files destroyed please treat this as a double freedom of information request for the `Series Q57-80 St Venant 1940` and/or the document authorising its destruction.
I would be obliged if your holdings held at Swadlincote, South Derbyshire and your higher classification site at Portsmouth Naval Base be thoroughly checked for this document before reply.
Thank You
Yours Faithfully


Shy Bairnes get nowt :)

JIm

[Baconwallah]

And now Carl will probably refer you to the CWGC, for a change. Nice try, Jim, but don't hold your breath.

John

[ivor43]

Hi All.

Jim, Thanks for the updates. I think that you are right in applying pressure, it may work but as John said don't hold your breath. In the course of my digging i found some very interesting info re persons and family connections. which makes me think that certain things have been ''covered up'' Unfortunately i do not think this info is suitable for discussion on an open forum.


ivor

[Verrieres]

Hello,
Do not worry I wont hold my breath however the MoD are advertising themselves as a `Business` and they are now publishing their `criteria` for retaining the documents. I am challenging them to produce the authorisation for Forms Q destruction ,after all every thing is done in triplicate :)
In recent months original documents have `appeared` for sale in private hands I`m confident that the series Q were never destroyed if they were they will have proof. I`m not sitting back taking their word or that of the CWGC I am researching their own policy and whatever their argument I will attempt to argue back stating their own policies back to them.
I can prove Q80 existed can they now prove its destroyed given that its `alleged` destruction would be against all their rules and guidelines?
I think the most damning proof is from the National Archives themselves which I have quoted back in my email today

The Q Series has `extracts` at the National Archives to produce an extract then the file from which it has been `extracted` must exist?
You know Carls reply is almost apologetic

I have been asked to reply that any information that has survived will be at the National Archives.
Kind regards

Best Wishes

Jim

[dcdl12976]

For whatever reason they just don't want this information released is my view. To be stopped like this there MUST be someone very high up and powerful involved

[Verrieres]

I don't know who handles these enquiries but it appears `Carl` only does what he is told, we need a higher authority I wonder who ultimately replies to my latest mail after this reply today? :-


Thanks again for your email; you will receive an FOI compliant response
from a colleague shortly.

Kind regards

Carl

MOD DBS Records Office
I`ve a feeling they will issue a denial on the account of cost in searching, it`s within their rights under FOI regulations? Of course I can then put in an appeal :)

I touched on these files a couple of weeks ago these were released in December 2014..then closed following complaints..

Jim


Unknown (dead) 2

War Office: German Index cards of British and Commonwealth Prisoners of War, Second World War. Unknown (dead) 2.


Held by:

The National Archives - War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies



Date:

1939 - 1945



Reference:

WO 416/416




Unknown (dead) 3

War Office: German Index cards of British and Commonwealth Prisoners of War, Second World War. Unknown (dead) 3.


Held by:

The National Archives - War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies



Date:

1939 - 1945



Reference:

WO 416/417





Unknown (dead) 1

War Office: German Index cards of British and Commonwealth Prisoners of War, Second World War. Unknown (dead) 1.


Held by:

The National Archives - War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies



Date:

1939 - 1945



Reference:

WO 416/415

[dcdl12976]

Serco now runs the top levels of DBS so as a private firm they are in it to make money so I fear you may well be right Jim

[dcdl12976]

Title: The National Archives' User Forum
Date: 18 November 2014
Location: Talks Room
Attendees (staff):


2.2 Q. Can we have an update on WO 416? Will the cards be available to order in the first quarter of 2015?

A. JJo said WO 416 is currently in the building, and is in the transfer process. They will be available soon, though they are loose cards and will need to be viewed under supervision in the invigilation room.

A. LMO said this arrangement is under review. We will take the matter of WO 416 away.

If these minuites are correct then they will be available soon but im not holding my breath

[Verrieres]

Looks like the CWGC records are coming on line too?

http://www.cwgc.org/news-events/news/2015/5/ww2-casualty-archive-documents-shared-online.aspx


Jim

[ivor43]

Hi Jim.
Maybe a step in the right direction. But it will not help the search for ''Unknowns etc''. It may give details of ''From Field Grave to Final Resting Place'' which could prove interesting but, as i read it, they are only making available ''on line'' the info that they already hold, which is a valuable research tool. But i do not think it will be of any help to us.


ivor

[Verrieres]

Hello Ivor,

You may be right Ivor but it really depends if the info they share is `ALL` they hold and not just what they currently display and can be bothered to find in their paper archive. Remember the `Unknown` next to Pte Syd Walt ? The CWGC claimed they held no information on `unknowns` but were still able to dismiss our question "Could this unknown be Anthony Corkhill?" with the reply " Doubtful the unknown soldier was a Corporal?" If they held no info then how were they able to determine his rank?

Best Wishes

Jim

[teecee1941]

Hello everyone,

Sorry I have not been around lately but as I have said before, I am a bit out of my depth with you boys. I always feel that it is better for me to look and listen, rather than stick my oar in. Thank you to everyone who has contributed to and stayed with this quest from day one. A massive thanks to Jim, who has time and again got me back on track when the case looked like it was all but closed.

I've just had a quick look at the CWGCs promise to make their information available in August. They say that details of 'the full 1.7 million' individuals who are commemorated.........................

Like everyone else, I am not getting carried away with this, but, wouldn't it be nice if things went our way, just this once? Heavens, we deserve a little bit good fortune once in a while.

Thanks again,

Tony

[Verrieres]

Hi,
Whilst checking a soldier on the CWGC site this afternoon I noticed some soldiers had `two` Additional Information headings? Perhaps in preparation for their `Additional records` they have promised to release in August? If so Anthony Corkhill had `two headings`:)
Sadly this evening its back to one :(

Jim

[Baconwallah]

Hadn't come across that yet, Jim. Perhaps something is moving at last.

John

[Verrieres]

Remembering today 29th May 2015. 75th Anniversary of the recorded death of Pte Anthony Corkhill 2nd Durham Light Infantry

LEST WE FORGET


Jim

[dcdl12976]

lets hope as well that this year brings information to solve this mystery

[Verrieres]

Update on WO 416 relating to Unknown PoWs who died in German Hands ? As you may recall these files have been locked again by the National Archives because of their content, apparently medically the Germans were very thorough and this is what has resulted in them being locked..and it looks like they will stay locked as my latest correspondence states a FOI request to have them reopened is a non starter ...BUT..and this is a killer...they MAY consider a request for individual cases to be opened!!!!!! Given they are unknown how is this possible?

Thinking aloud here if the files are medically well detailed why hasn't a dental comparison been done for those `missing men` ? I can see the difficulty at the end of the War as no-one quite knew who was missing, but now using a combination of these files and the CWGC rolls would it not be possible to find not only Anthony Corkhill but some of the other unfortunate souls with `No Known Grave` ?

As for the MoD no response are they genuinely looking this time? Or simply ignoring me? Moneys on the latter I`m afraid as no acknowledgement was received by their FOI people. :(

Jim

[Drew5233]

I was told the 'Medical Details' were a few chest ex-rays, hence why they would look at individual requests and release those that don't have them. I've not heard of them containing dental records although I'm happy to be proven wrong. Either way they should be opened. The positives of what might be achieved clearly outweighs the negatives of what these records may reveal. Would someone really care if they discovered a relative who died over 70 years ago had tooth decay or a chest infection?

I would love to see a couple of examples of these files to see if they actually contain anything of use.

[ivor43]

hi all.
Drew. there is the possibility that the reluctance to publish could be related to the ''Cause of Death'' if the circumstances were, shall we say ''unusual''. mention has been made in this thread to the habits of an S.S. officer Dix.


ivor

[Drew5233]

That won't be it. I have loads of War Crimes files that contain photographs, some of them name the Air Crew remains exhumed after the war and show bullet holes in the skull. One (which freaked me out a bit when it fell out of an envelope) even contained the ID disc of a Guards officer executed in Italy. The disc was taken from his dead body later by a villager who witnessed the murder and it found it's way to the investigation file.

[ivor43]

hi.
Thanks Drew. as you say, you have War Crime Files which by their nature will be fairly detailed for they would form part of a prosecution. I am not sure that the files Jim is referring to would be that detailed.
With War Crime files we would know we were dealing with murders, so the evidence, photo's etc are bound to be fairly graphic. As a trainee cop in the late 60's this type of file was used with some of the lectures.
But for those deaths not subject to the above then it may come as a shock to some to find that the death of a relative may not have been what they thought. The whole purpose of this thread is to try and establish the where and how and why, when Anthony Corkhill was alive on 27.5.40 and thought to not be seriously wounded,then Dead. on 29th.now we know of Sgt Griffith and the KORR man Dead on 29th in Calonne. In the Hospital???? very possible. if so then Very Possibly Murdered, and No One held responsible.maybe not what people would like to find out.


ivor

[Verrieres]

I was told the 'Medical Details' were a few chest ex-rays, hence why they would look at individual requests and release those that don't have them. I've not heard of them containing dental records although I'm happy to be proven wrong. Either way they should be opened. The positives of what might be achieved clearly outweighs the negatives of what these records may reveal. Would someone really care if they discovered a relative who died over 70 years ago had tooth decay or a chest infection?

I would love to see a couple of examples of these files to see if they actually contain anything of use.


Hello Drew,

The reply I received stated `medically detailed` I `assumed` perhaps wrongly that `German` medically detailed would perhaps be thorough ,complete with regard to every detail; not superficial or partial and contain amongst other things dental records I certainly didn't think it related to just a few x-rays there`s no point in closing such a file is there?
Trying to find a lead has been frustrating ,no one wants to help and the feeling is they would rather we went away I think its not through any hidden agenda simply to those we speak too its a 9-5 job nothing else and it happened a long time ago and at the end of the day they genuinely have no idea what we want and nor do they really care.
What we have found is there are post mortem records in Private hands and there were additional post mortems carried out by the War Office in 44-46 this has had to be dragged out of official sources, the enquiry into the mass grave at St Venant which the CWGC adviser denied existed despite it being on their website! Why transport 90 bodies out of Town from the bridge to the mass grave when the cemetery nearby had provided the battalions HQ ?
The casualty list with the Q reference, what`s the significance of Q80 is it an unsubstantiated report of Pte Corkhill`s death enough to give a date of death but not enough to identify a last resting place or falling short of an explaination to the family. No enquiry in the Missing Men File `DEAD` its definite. but how were they sure ? Is the Missing Men File complete by the Index it is ? Anthony`s will from his paybook how was it at the MoD if Anthony and presumably his paybook were lost?
No record of Anthony being taken prisoner, no record of Anthony receiving treatment Why? I thought the answer may have been in the German unknown files perhaps for May 29th 1940? If they didn't know it was Anthony then they would not have him recorded that would have cleared up the fact there was no record? When the SS entered the hospital in St Venant and began their own cleansing (M.Faivre) what are we to think? Perhaps Anthony was cleansed?
I know Ivor has long supported the idea that Anthony may have been amongst those buried behind the school at Calonne sur Lys it is possible, very possible! However Anthony is on the Canal Bank his injuries according to RSM Goddard not (in his opinion) too bad, yet the German Guards assess him as not been able to move over rough terrain, if he was picked up by German Field Ambulance where would they have taken him? Locally to be assessed before moving him on to a Hospital? Remember he died TWO days later, where and what happened in those two days ? Lets not forget Pte Walt died on the 29th May 1940 the same day as Anthony ,two days after he had pleaded for help himself bleeding from wounds termed by Sgt McLean as `fatal` If we find where Syd died would we find Anthony`s fate? Remember Syd is buried next to an unknown? That unknown who the CWGC told us they held no information on but they doubted it was Anthony Corkhill because (despite holding no info) they knew was a Corporal!!
So many questions ,so few answers but the answers lie somewhere. Despite not holding any information on Anthony Corkhill it appears his CWGC Memorial entry online has been prepped for `Additional Information`???

http://i.imgur.com/bwZ9IZH.jpg



Jim

[ap1]

hi.
But for those deaths not subject to the above then it may come as a shock to some to find that the death of a relative may not have been what they thought. The whole purpose of this thread is to try and establish the where and how and why, when Anthony Corkhill was alive on 27.5.40 and thought to not be seriously wounded,then Dead. on 29th.now we know of Sgt Griffith and the KORR man Dead on 29th in Calonne. In the Hospital???? very possible. if so then Very Possibly Murdered, and No One held responsible.maybe not what people would like to find out.
ivor

There is no evidence, not even slight, that Sgt Griffiths was murdered at the hospital in Calonne, or indeed even died at the hospital. The dates of death on CWGC sites is often out of sync with other official records, understandable with the vast amount of detail they were working with after the war. This has proved to be the case during the Kohima project that we ran last year, so although it states Griffiths died on the 29th. The earlier Kew File that I posted suggests he died on the 25th May and this is compelling. Why?

Elements of 1RWF (which was now split) were in Calonne on the 24/25 in strength. Indeed on several occasions sub-units moved towards St Floris and were then forced to return to Calonne. It's a fair bet if you died on the battlefield anywhere between Calonne/St Floris over this period, it was highly likely your comrades would have left you! Hence a burial at Calonne.

[ivor43]

Hi all.
I thought i knew a bit about what was going on in St Venant.Wrong. Drew. i have been reading the Post in WW2 Talk of the 20. Nov 11. entitled '' 6th Battalion Kings Own Royal Regiment''. Very interesting. IT confirms what i thought that they were approaching from the East.I had come across references to 223 Anti Tank Co. but i had not come across Any Reference to a KORR unit, B Co, any where near St Venant ( Page 313..Units in France and Belgium) which you had copied into the post.the problem here is there are very few dates in the book, i can only assume this was 23rd. However on the same day from the W.D. of 2/5 West Yorkshire they were withdrawing from Robecq. D Co to St Floris and A Co to Calonne. It records the withdrawal of KORR through the Yorks and Lancs, a probable error. Into this we also have , in the evening of 23rd, 1 RWF with it's carriers. approaching from the east. This causes me a problem. However 2/5WY handed over St Floris to 2 DLI.
Now Al.I accept your comment about evidence. there is No Direct Evidence but there is possible Circumstantial Evidence for this. Unless we Know if Sgt Griffiths Was wounded or not we can not rule it out.
The other problem we have here is. By the 27th the fighting in the area had ceased, the front had moved on, any men left in the area were probably PoW's. We can infer from the comments to RSM Goddard that certain types of wounded were going to be treated in the Field hospital.this is why i wish to know if he was wounded.
Oh i think i was wrong with the name of the S.S. man it could have been LEX.


ivor

[Drew5233]

Oh i think i was wrong with the name of the S.S. man it could have been LEX.

I know that ******* - he murdered some BEF chaps in Nieppe Forest. One survived and escaped and got a MM for his troubles. His Escape and Evasion report has a sketch map of were the murders took place and I visited the area a few years ago. Lex was killed on the Eastern Front in 1944 so the investigation was dropped once he was found to be dead. He was with the SS Deutschland in 1940.

[Verrieres]

Update;- No acknowledgment from the MoD for the FOI request ,No reply within the statutory period. A courtesy email to the first MoD contact asking for an update has also been met with silence.The sheer arrogance is beyond belief.
On a more regrettable note Mr Brian Sim who helped me considerably with his expert knowledge of the relevant files at Kew and advised and provided so much to the search for Anthony Corkhill has died after a long illness. My condolences to Brian`s family.

Best wishes

Jim

[si chez]

Hi TC
You'll be relieved to know that the farm Isn't a bingo hall or a restaurant.
I think i may have found something for you. I read the diary of Captain Cyril Mosley Townsend 2nd Bn DLI. Madam Boulets Farm (Farm Boulet) was positioned on the crossroad junction of Rue De Hurtevent and Rue De Bas Hamel. I checked this and their is a couple of buildings there.one of them a farm.
I hope this helps.

Simon

[dcdl12976]

If this is correct then the farm was in the Royal Berks area only a few hundred yards from there HQ in Bas Hamel and about half a mile from where Dads section was hit by friendly fire and his mate killed.

[dcdl12976]

This however does fit with a map posted by John many pages back http://rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2813&d=1341700039 and I seem to remember that the Berkshires had an aid post very close to there HQ now is it possible that the RSM (and Antony) were for some reason visiting the Royal Berks HQ ? and the Germans used the British aid post for themselves after the withdrawal of the Berkshires across the canal foot bridge if so could Anthony have been taken from the canal bank to there which would have been the nearest aid post. Dad says it was regiment Germania that attacked the HQ at dawn on the 27th he knows because he saw several soldiers with the cuff title Germania dead afterwards.

Just a thought to be considered folks.

By the way John further to a post by you (about 108 I think) The history of the royal Berkshire regiment states May 25th By nightfall the battalion held forward of the long bend of the Lys canal between St Venant and the forest, with battalion headquarters in Bas Hamel and C company in reserve behind Haverskerque on there right were a weak pioneer battalion and on there left the 2nd Durham Light infantry this seems to confirm that the DLI were in the area as stated by Captain Cyril Mosley Townsend 2nd Bn DLI.

[Verrieres]

Only D Company 2DLI were in the area of The Royal Berks. RSM Goddard wasn't there he too is referred to in a second diary of Michael Farr (2DLI) at the bridge with HQ Company attempting to move a burning ammo truck? Nice to have confirmation of Johns initial information on Ferme Boulets location.

Jim

[Verrieres]

Hello ,

Just to update There was no response to my FOI request. A follow up enquiry to the clerk at the MoD who acknowledged the request has also not even received an acknowledgement.
In one of the last documents I received from Mr Brian Sim it sets out the War Office (MoD) requirement for the announcement of `presumed casualties` in the document it states "It has been decided that the names of Officers and Other ranks whose deaths have been presumed will not be released to the press and in the case of a Certificates of Death they will show that Death is `Presumed` "......Anthony Corkhill`s states `Died of Wounds`(not presumed)
From the same document are the four criteria needing to be met for casualties these are;-

Cat A .. THOSE IN WHICH WE HAVE SUFFICIENT INFORMATION TO ACCEPT AS EVIDENCE OF DEATH.

Cat B.. THOSE IN WHERE THERE IS EVIDENCE WHICH THOUGH NOT FULLY CONCLUSIVE CAN BE HELD TO JUSTIFY ACCEPTANCE OF DEATH IN VIEW OF THE LAPSE OF TIME

Cat C.. THOSE CASES IN WHICH THERE IS EVIDENCE WHICH TO SOME EXTENT IS HELPFUL BUT ONE THAT DOES NOT ENABLE US TO DEAL WITH THE CASE OTHER THAN AS ONE OF PRESUMPTION IN VIEW OF LAPSE OF TIME

Cat D.. THOSE CASES IN WHICH THERE IS NO EVIDENCE AT ALL.

A,B,C all seem likely with the key word `EVIDENCE` its there somewhere ..............so why can we not find it?

Best Wishes

Jim

[ivor43]

hi.
interesting info. however i think in Anthony's case it may be in cat1. It was specific 29th may. not ''about'' or between so and so dates.

ivor

[Verrieres]

Hello Ivor,
That's what I was thinking but yesterday I re-read Anthony Corkhill`s death notification and it reads as "...it has been decided by The War Office Casualty Branch that in view of information received by that department and the lapse of time during which no further information has been received your son 4449417 Pte Anthony Corkhill 2nd Durham Light Infantry will be presumed to have died from wounds on or since 29th May 1940"

This appears to place Anthony into Cat B or C as there is reference to lapse of time? This still indicates that there was further `EVIDENCE` other than what we know from RSM Goddard`s testimony dated the 27th May 1940 ,as you rightly point out Ivor we have a `Specific` date 29th May 1940? The letter was dated November 1941 and was from Hawkhill, Edinburgh 7 not the casualty department at BlueCoat Lane Liverpool.
Initial Conclusion (in my view) Further `Evidence` was received other than that of RSM Goddard regarding Pte Corkhill`s fate after the RSM saw him on the canal bank else the notification would have read `..on or since the 27th May 1940`?
Further Question ,was further information received by the Casualty department after the notification was sent to the family on 28th November 1941 that elevated the case to Cat A with the date of death now given not as `on or since 29th May 1940`but as Ivor points out `Specifically 29th May 1940`
Either way there still appears to be something we are not being told, if its a further sighting then why not come out and say it? The `missing men file` bears no mention of an enquiry into Anthony Corkhills whereabouts and I have always thought that was because enough evidence was initially provided to `KNOW` Anthony Corkhill was `DEAD`? Yet I now realise from the Red Cross correspondence that at least one enquiry was made to RSM Goddard, (We have a copy of the correspondence) so why no mention or copy documents in the `Missing Men File` Who has removed the enquiry ,why did they move the enquiry and who provided the further information post May 27th 1940 that decided the date May 29th 1940?

Jim

[Baconwallah]

Sound reasoning, Jim.

John

[Verrieres]

Hello John,

Thanks sometimes I start to doubt my reasoning and have to put it down in black and white . If I stray into fantasy let me know :)

Jim

Ps Thanks to all on this thread cracking team :)

[Baconwallah]

In the Netherlands any government body which does not answer a FOI request within a set period of time (one or two months, I think) has to pay a fine which goes to the person requesting the information. It certainly helps to keep the penpushers on their toes. On the other hand, some people make a living out of sending in unanswerable FOI requests...

John

[ivor43]

Hi Folks.
Very sound reasoning Jim. but we do know of another inquirery that was made. If my memory is still good, do we not have a reference to a War Crimes File opened on the St Venant- Calonne area. which was not pursued, possibly because the offender was killed on the eastern front. If this could be found it may provide an answer.
As you are all by now well aware of my liking for Anthony's murder in the Hospital at Calonne. This could possibly add further support for my theory. If, for instance, the War Crimes Team had found evidence to support the report of the murders in hospitals, not only Calonne. Then a specific date could be placed on the Death. ie 29th May. you may recall from another thread that a Sgt Griffiths is also recorded as dead 29th may also Calonne.
Now. i would think that Any Relevant Documentation would have been transferred to this War Crimes file, which may account for the reason it can not be found on the Original files. So we are possibly looking for the Wrong Files. If a file was opened on a War Crime i doubt it would be destroyed so it may be buried in the Archives somewhere, Hopefully. Problem is would there be any chance of a FOI request turning anything up. might be worth a shot..



ivor.

[ivor43]

hi.
as a PS to the above.Would the War Crimes Commission hold their own files. as opposed to them being held by MoD etc



ivor

[Baconwallah]

Good question, Ivor. They all say that someone elose has them. Your guess is as good as mine.

John

[Verrieres]

Hello Ivor.
I have the War Crimes files and in their wisdom they pursued only four crimes from the whole lot .There was no positive outcome and no person was actually accused .The cases were heard with witness testimony but no soldier was brought to justice. They did indeed try to lay the blame at the Commanders door but were unable to pin point which actual battalion/company of Germania was responsible with the finger of suspicion falling on III Battalion/company who despite admissions that they were in the area, not once but twice claim that there were other German troops already there when they arrived this was in addition to an engineer company acting independently.
I will check and see which officers had already been killed but I know it was agreed that the tribunal could find no evidence of a General Order relating to the treatment of prisoners and that any mistreatment was carried out on a local basis ie Squad leaders but ultimately the German CO was responsible for his mens conduct.
In relation to documents being removed, I too considered that option but if they were in the Missing Men File originally then the File Index does not show any mention? I would assume the index would hold all of the correspondence with edits made alongside if they were moved? I have been told by a member of WW2Talk of Casualty lists at the National Archives for wounded, dead, missing WO 417 but I do not know what these files hold? I have statements obtained from American sources on the war Crimes these are held by FOLD. The War Crimes files evidence etc went to SHAEF these became the records of Allied Operational and Occupation Headquarters, World War (Series RG 331) and some but not all are held at their National Archives (NARA?). Do they hold British Files? I honestly do not know their index system doesn't seem to bring any up.
I think John is right ,no one has them, its always another department who are affiliated to each other and in todays society there is no interest in the events of WW2 unless of course there`s an anniversary or commemoration and no one can be bothered to actually look. Not all but some are not even aware there was a War never mind appreciating the sacrifices made in it. If only ,just once, an enquiry fell onto the desk of a person who actually had an interest and a sense that people like Anthony Corkhill and others still missing `STILL MATTER` Thank heavens for forums like this where their sacrifice is acknowledged and they are still remembered with honour. The world has changed and its still changing...and not always for the better . (Sorry about the little rant )

Jim

[ivor43]

Morning.
Thanks Jim. a very detailed post. With regard to the Germania. I believe, if my memory is correct, they were approaching the area in an Easterly direction.While the Totemkopf were approaching from the South and west, so it is quite possible that the Germania statements are correct. Also we know of the Engineering Co as it was their equipment that was captured by the approaching RWF, and then attacked by the RWF when they were approaching St Venant from the north.
I will agree that in ''Normal'' Circumstances the CO would be responsible for the conduct of his men, But, the problem here is that these S.S Units were not really normal, some of the men were Arrogant,Sadistic,Murdering Bullies who had No regard for the Geneva Convention or any other authority. I have read accounts where these men were removed by their own people.
With regard to the War Crime Files, i suspect that the Americans would have taken possession of any relevant files i would imagine that they would be re numbered within the American system with some cross reference somewhere,possibly.
With regard to your last paragraph (your little rant) i think you are quite right. However you missed something out. Anniversary, commemoration AND the Trial of some 90 odd year old soldier who had the unfortunate posting of being a concentration camp guard.
Now on a more personal note, for various reasons i had not seen my Grand children for a number of years. But we manager to meet up the other weekend and the conversation came around to School and stuff. I as totally amazed when my 16 year old Grand daughter said that they were taught about WW2 as History. unfortunately i was not able to discuss this further but i find this to be rather alarming. What or Who's Version of WW2 are they being taught. Do these young people Even Know that there are Men Still Missing i doubt it. I Suspect they are taught a Sanitized version which bares very little resemblance to the truth.
Some of you will have seen the report of the death of 96 year old Les Munro the last of the Pilots of the Dam Busters raid. a comment was put on Facebook...''Rest easy Squadron Leader..Thank you for my Freedom'' this is something that MUST be Remembered. not only the Fly Boys But Every Man who fought in whatever unit is owed this Debt of Gratitude.
Those that did not survive and are ''Unknowns'' are just as important.. a final Quote

'' When you go home, tell them of us and say that for their Tomorrows, we gave our Today''


ivor

[dcdl12976]

You are correct about Germania Ivor they cane through the berks area as dad remembers the cuff titles on some dead men of the regiment

[Verrieres]

Morning (Just)

Looking at the War Crimes File the final outcome is listed as :-FILE CLOSED AFTER PROLONGED INVESTIGATION IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO TRACE (OR EVEN IDENTIFY!) THE CULPRITS.
German report from May 27th 1940
27 May 4o. Attack by regiment within its division across the canal in easterly and north-easterly direction. Dispositions for the attack same as before.

a) Morning.
Reinforced II Bn came forward rapidly and soon reached ST. VENANT. Reinforced III Bn in level terrain covered with hedges and solitary houses met with very tough and courageous resistance and at first advanced very slowly. Regimental staff at the beginning of attack on rail and road crossing BUSNES-GUARBACQUE. At beginning of attack strong artillery attack there; staff and forward sections of I Bn sustained casualties.


b) Afternoon
Reinforced II Bn advancing further to east/north-east just north of LYS Canal.
Reinforced III Bn good progress south and in south,west part of BOIS MOYEN. Left, neighbouring regiment "Der Fuehrer, apparently up against rather strong resistance, advancing slowly.


Order of the Division:
Reinforced III Bn turns north to relieve Regiment 'Der Fuehrer'. III Bn carried out turn as ordered without attacking to north.
O.C. III Bn seriously wounded (later killed in the East). Attack by Regiment 'Der Fuehrer' then got under way. Positions reached roughly by Regt by evening: reinforced II Bn approximately at .LE SART. and north there of, reinforced III Bn approximately in south-easterly part of BOIS MOYEN (road). I Bn with regimental staff near HAVERSKERQUE (Road).
Information supplied by a PW Heinrich stated that Atrocities,as described in St Venant would have been dealt with at all levels and those responsible executed.....It is then noted that the character of Regimental Commander DEMELHUBER is known too well which makes this statement of PW HEINRICH bear no weight at all.
The battle report further states that III BN advanced along the road of LA BASSE CANAL without seeing any fighting but were then held up at THE CHURCHYARD. It was established that unless further was found that the soldiers fighting in St Venant were III Bn and 16 Comp Engineers.It was taken that No 9 Company of IIIBn were the ones fighting in the town as one of the interogated prisoners remembered the details but denied any knowledge of atrocities. It was felt that unless it could be proved that other units were present then DEMELHUBER could be held responsible for the actions of his men. He never was and was released from captivity in 1948 and died in 1988. For anyone who wants to google him his name is KARL MARIA DEMELHUBER .


Jim

[Verrieres]

QUOTE]O.C. III Bn seriously wounded (later killed in the East)[/QUOTE]

I`m just adding a little more detail for this `monster` and a small correction to the War Crime File assumption he had been killed in the EAST? The man referred to was Adolf Rudolf Reinhold Diekmann he was shot in the Lung at St Venant a wound which appears to have had a psychological impact as well as a physical one Diekmann was appointed A.D.C. to II Company of the SS-Regiment 'Germania' and shortly afterwards became Adjutant of III bn. It was during his time as Adjutant that he was severely wounded by a gunshot to the lungs on 27th May 1940 at Saint Venant . Soon after (on 20th August) he was awarded the Iron Cross First Class. He was sent to Elbogen on the river Eger in the Sudetenland (present day Loket on the river Ohre in the Czech Republic) for convalescence. Diekmann never fully recovered from this wound and was described in his last assessment (of 1st June 1944) as being, "Physically well and completely fit, but sometimes somewhat handicapped by his lung wound ?." DIEKMANN was killed in Normandy by shell splinters to the head but not before his unit (Now Das Reich) had completely wiped out the village/town of ORADOUR SUR GLANE killing its population and raising the buildings to the ground.
This is of course all background information on the events at ST VENANT and there`s no direct link to Anthony Corkhill or his disappearance that we have found yet. I think this information falls under the heading of `Bad Character Evidence`

Jim

[ivor43]

morning Jim.
Thanks for the above report. interesting. But sadly the conclusion is not very helpful. It would seem that Demelhuber was a well respected man as he gained promotion on a regular basis and also he was also quite highly Decorated. But sadly i do not believe he is our man, as he survived the war. He may have been I/C but even if he was aware of what was going on seems to have covered his back very well. I will have to look back into this, but the name DIX comes to mind in this area.
We have the reports of PoW's being shot in their Hospital beds and the shooting of men in the Forest of Neipe from which a witness escaped.
It would appear that Germania was the focus of investigations but Totemkopf was also heavily engaged in the area around Calonne and the Forest. I would think from a point of view of who was where, this area was a Mess.
i will keep digging, but,and i am sorry to be a nuisance, is there any reference to Totemkopf in your files.


ivor

[Verrieres]

Hello Ivor,

DEMELHUBER was a groom in the German army prior to obtaining a commission in the SS. It was recorded that he was cleared of charges relating to the massacre of British Troops in 1940 authors had assumed it was in conection with Wormhoudt or Le Paradis it was neither it was St Venant but the massacres at St Venant are not well reported. He could not be directly linked and was freed in 1946.
Totenkopf SS were 9miles away at Bethune on May 24th 1940 but their armour was withdrawn for the push on Dunkirk. On May 27th 1940 when St Venant was overran troops from 14th Company SS Division Totenkopf committed the massacre at Le Paradis They were under the command of Hauptsturmführer Fritz Knöchlein who was executed in 1948 for the crime
One of the reasons Demelhuber was never prosecuted was the presence of 3rd Panzer Division in St Venant their rifle companies took a mixture of thirty six prisoners Officers and men from the DLI,RWF and R.Berks and it was recorded that with the exception of the officers the enlisted men stated they had fought so hard because if captured they had, without exception, expected to be shot?


Jim

[Verrieres]

Heres the German statements in full;-

CONFIDENTIAL


Report No. WCIU/LD0/LDC 1262/( a) - UWMPB
JAG Ref MD/JAG/FE/7/5 (2F)


.VOLUNTARY STATEMENT of PRISONER of WAR


LD 1189 SS-Obersturmfuhrer Heinz KOEKE


Report of my service in the `GERMANIA` Regt


The GERMANIA Regt was formed from the Regt SS2 of the pool of reserve troops (Verfuegungstruppe) and was named thus at the Reich Party Rally at Nuremberg in 1936. The various Bn's were garrisoned as follows :-I Bn. at HAMBURG-; 2 Bn at ANOLSEN; 3 Bn at ',WOLTERDINGEN. 3 Bn was transferred in 1937 to RADOLFSZELL am BODENSEE. The Regt Staff and the Regt units were at HAMBURG.

On 9.9.1934. I came to the 1st Bn and belonged to 3 Coy until I was wounded on 17.7.1941. In April 1937 I became Unterscharfuhrer and my appointment was that of Gruppenfuehrer (Section Commander). As Scharf\ihrer I was appointed Officer in charge of the Goy in the autumn of 1938 and
in that capacity I took part in the Polish campaign.
After its termination the Regt was transferred to the area of BERNN, Czechoslovakia and some time later about the end of Nov 1939, to the KITZINGEN area. 1 Bn was at MARKBRIET At the beginning of February 1940 the Regt was moved to Western Germany, into the area of BECKUM in WESTPHALIA and towards the end of March 1st Bn moved to WALTROP which we left on 10th May 1940 to go into action on the .Western Front.
On the way to HOLLAND we passed BREDA. We had no contact with the enemy in Holland. Our first battle was at .ACHTERBRODE, Belgium, in mid-May, against rearguards of the French army. When the fighting - -which lasted only a short, time - was finished, we continued on the way to France. After several days' journey during which we had no contact with the enemy, we passed ARRAS and reached LILLERS later on. There we took up positions on the Northern exit of the town. On the same day, in the afternoon, it must have been near the end of May, our Coy was advanced to the LA BASSEE CANAL. We then moved along the CANAL in a south easterly direction, crossed the canal by means of an emergency bridge, reached ROBECQ as Coy in reserve.
In that area I saw two shot-up English or French tanks. ROBECQ must have boon taken by 2 Bn because a comrade Of mine, Rottenfuehrer WETEKOMP, was killed in action there. In ROBECQ I noticed 8 to 10 English soldiers who were prisoners, some of them were wounded and were being bandaged by our medical orderlies. In ROBECQ we remained until about 11 o'clock at night and were later withdrawn again via the same route. Lighters in the canal were on fire. In the e LAMIQUALLERIE area,, not far from BUSNES, we took up positions and on the next day again about noon, we reached the LA BASSEE canal again, where the LILLERS-ST. VENANT road crosses the canal.
There our Coy received orders to attack in the direction of ST.VENANT in order to form a bridgehead across the canal. An emergency bridge had been thrown across the canal at this point as a result Of which our Engineers Coy had lost two vehicles because the drivers, ignorant of the position, had driven across the bridge in order to turn round in ST. VENANT. The two trucks stood, shot-up, on the road up from the canal to the town. At that time I knew only that the unit on the left , I cannot remember which - had already made contact with the enemy on the other side of the canal, I do not know which troops were deployed on our right either We were not told because the orders were given hurriedly and perfunctorily. At that time the OC Regt was Standartenfuehror DEMELHUBER, Battalion commander was Sturmbannfuehrer SCHMIDTHUBER, , my Coy commander was Hauptstummfuehrer Franz SCHREIBER and my Platoon commander was Unterstummfurher HAUS. The other two second in commands of our Platoon were Oberscharfuehrer WISCH and Unterscharfuehrer Rolf SUEL.
-.
WISCH was killed in action in Russia and SUHL is in Russian captivity in Siberia. At that time I had orders to proceed 50 metres on the right of the road leading to ST VENANT. I and my section went over the bridge first. Right and left of the road there stood some houses and I had some cover from gardens and hedges. After I had gone about 50 metres out of the covered area the ground began to rise a little and we were fired on by several Heavy MGs so that it was impossible to proceed further. The order came to dig in and I was able to reach a small trench which was also occupied by my Zugfuehrer. We lay there alone for some time as our men who were huddled together in the dip could not gain any ground on account of the concentrated fire. We knew we were face to face with British soldiers of good quality and after mortars had been brought against us, we expected a counter-attack. Heavy arms were 'brought into play on our side and the enemy's fire slackened off. We were lying right opposite the water-tower and on the railway line, which was hidden by the trucks standing there, we could pick out Heavy MG positions. The distance was some 5-600 metres. Late in the afternoon dive-bombers were sent in against ST VENANT and I presume that after the air attack most of the English and French troops evacuated ST VENANT.
We remained in position during the night and here and there left of the road battle noises were heard, The next day our platoon became the reserve platoon and we were able to clean our arms which had been dirtied by the rain in the proceeding night. About 10 or clock in the evening we were relieved by the 7th company. When we mustered on the road south of the canal our Motor Transport arrived and was shot at by artillery and turned round and drove back empty in the LILLERS direction.
We marched to BUSNES where we waited for our MT. After we had a days rest in the LILLERS area we marched to LA BASSEE canal but this time arrived at a spot 4km west of the emergency bridge. A little way from the canal we came under heavy artillery fire and as we were still marching in close order the company had 7 fatal casualties.
At midday we went on in a more or less westerly direction towards ST VENANT. The town was clear of enemy troops and we assembled on the edge. It was then I heard that our Engineer Coy had lost 27 men killed in the fighting on the canal north of ST VENANT. We then marched through ST VENANT, crossed the second canal and in the evening arrived at HAVERSKERSQUE 2 km north of ST VENANT. Here we were supposed to go into rest but on the same evening the order to move off came and we marched through the wood in a general northerly direction,
A little way on the other side of the wood a halt was called on the LILLERS-HAZEBROUCK railway line near STEENBECQUE and a search was made for quarters. At MARBERQUE we spent the night in a barn and the next morning moved off in the HAZEBROUK-CASSEL direction. We did not get as far as CASSEL.
The next day we were back as far as ST QUENTIN where we had three days rest. After that the only thing I can report on is a battle which we fought near ROSIERES with French Colonial troops. Our platoon had taken over the guarding of a part of the place and did not go into action. This day (6th or 7th June) the Comander of the second platoon Oberscharfuehrer BAHNSEN was killed and buried in the cemetery there. Then, acting on orders, I took over the command of the 2nd Platoon. Neither during the time of the French campaign nor at any time later have I ever heard of any shooting of English or French prisoners. I have made the above statement voluntarily and without compulsion.


(Sgd) Heinz KOEKE
(Sgd) M. ULLMAN, WOI




Signed in my presence: LDO 12 July 1946
Distribution Copies
JLG : 2
AG-3 1
(VW) File 3

************************************************** ************************************************** **************************************************



Report No;- WCIU/LDC/1259(a)-U/WMPS
JAG. Ref; MD/JAG/FS/7/5(2F)


VOLUNTARY STATEMENT BY PRISONER OF WAR
LD 1216 SS-OSTUF ROBERT KRAFT 2BN GERMANIA


My position
At that time I was Rottenfuhrer and drove a vehicle (Kuebelwagen) in the 6 Coy, 2 Bn , this was . the vehicle in which the Gruppenfuhrer (Section Commander) of the heavy Machine gun and his runner, together with the apparatus„ were driven. It was my duty to drive the section during battle to the position ordered. As soon as the section dismounted, I had to drive the truck some distance away under cover, according to the circumstances, and to see that it was safe from air observation and artillery fire.


The Campaign in Northern France
We came from the ANTWERP area area and drove towards ARRAS As far as I remember no fighting took place in the course of this journey. The direction was then changed and we drove into the area of BURBURE„ LILLERS. In LILLERS we were bombed by German aircraft when entering the town. We then continued in the direction of the canal and, as far as I remember, we were pushed out to the left and went via BUSNES into action in the area of GUARBECQUE, on the canal. The fighting during the first few days was severe and we had about 16 dead . Opposing us were English units, who wanted to hold the canal. After a few days it became quiet and the English units were withdrawn. The Battalion assembled and we continued on in the direction of ST. VENANT. We had no fighting during this journey but I believe other units had moved along this road before us We then continued into the HAZEBROUCK area.
I can no longer say which road we took.
Of Prisoners of War during this period I only saw one Englishman. Who was wounded and was taken by a medical orderly to a First Aid Post situated on the road LILLERS . I do not know of any other fighting in this area. I testify by my signature that I know nothing of the shooting of Prisoners of War nor have I ever heard any talk about it.


I have made the above statement voluntary and without compulsion.
(sgd) Robert KRAFT
Signed in my presence: (sgd) M.ULLMAN W.O.I.


LDC 12 July 1946.


Distribution: copies.
JAG 2
AG3 (VW) 1
File 5

************************************************** ************************************************** ****************************************


Report No; WCTU/LDC/1260 (a) -U/ML
JAGs Reference;- MD/JAG/FS/7/5 (2F)
CONFIDENTIAL


VOLUNTARY STATEMENT BY PRISONER of WAR
LD 1187 SS-Hastuf HERBERT CHRISTIANSEN


STATEMENT OF MY ACTIVITIES IN MAY1940






In my position as TF.,K II (2nd in Command Technical Mobile Company) with the Bn.Staff, I worked together with the T.F.K I on all questions connected with technical and administrative matters, I had. nothing to do with tactical matters. I was mostly with the vehicle repair column, which was under my orders. Here un-serviceable vehicles were repaired.. Therefore we drove at the tail end of the marching column and. were about 10 - 15 km behind the battalion Battle Hq during engagements.
The Bn reached LILLERS district from the South or Southeast from the neighbourhood of .ARRAS. The attack in the district of St. VENANT took place after the advance air-field at LIGNY LEZ AIRES had been captured. I got orders at the air-field to go into quarters with the repair-column and all vehicles which were not needed during the fighting at, LIGNY LEZ AIRES. The repair column moved into quarters in the school and remained there with the Coy supply columns which were parked in the immediate vicinity until the fighting had ceased in this district and the march was continued to the Northwest. The schoolhouse was not inhabited and the lady of the house returned only after a few days. Her husband the teacher, was a French soldier and she told us, had been captured by the Germans in this neighbourhood.
During the first days I drove back on the road of the advance to look for a lorry that had fallen out at ARRAS and to bring it up. Also on the other days I was often on the road to obtain missing M/T spares. Several times I was together with the fighting units.
During the first day I met 1 Coy, which had received a direct hit shortly before I arrived, during an Artillery attack; it might have been in BUSNES, I also heard there that my Battalion n Commander Hauptsturmfuehrer POLEWACS had been wounded. He had been shot in the stomach from an M.G.-burst. I visited him in the field hospital and the next day brought him a few things -which he wanted from his luggage. A company commander took over the Battalion in his stead.
I might have been fairly often at the Battalion Battle HQ, but do not remember any particulars.
During my last visit to the Battalion I found it in the last phases of an attack on a stretch of wood. After reconstructing the situation on the map, which was not at my disposal at the time, it might have been the "BOIS D'AMONT", Vehicles stopped on the road North-west from HAVERSKERQUE and picked up troops for the pursuit. Recce - troops, arrived continually, and more were still on the way. The enemy had evacuated the terrain en masse during the night, as far as I remember, and the reminder feigned a full complement in a Self Sacrificing fight..
I cannot remember having seen any Prisoners of War on that morning, but I saw some dead on the western side of the road who undoubtedly were killed in action, as they were still in possession of their weapons and some still partly in their positions. I myself did not leave the road. I spoke however, with several colleagues whose impressions of the fighting were still fresh. I was shown the position whore 10 Coy had to interrupt their attack temporarily as the Company Cmdr Obersturmfuchrer POLETIN had been killed and there were further casualties. In my opinion this place must have been several hundred metres south of the wood "BOIS D'AMONT“
The attack may have taken place the previous day as there had been some fighting in and around HAVERSKERQUE. Several shot,blown and burnt out lorries lay there. North of St Venant in the neighbourhood of the auxiliary bridge however several shot down enemy tanks and armoured vehicles stood about, which had been shot down during a counterattack to prevent the establishment of the GERMAN bridgehead. It was evident from the conversation that the fighting including the day before had been very heavy and that a tough opponent prevented a further advance. Also losses were heavy.
I could not stay for long as I received the order to get the supply column ready to march. The same day we continued the march as far as I remember towards the North West in order to drive the next day towards the southeast into the district of ST QUENTIN.
On the return journey I stopped at the Auxillary Bridge north of ST VENANT owing to the formations which did not belong to our Regiment coming towards us from the opposite direction.
At the beginning of my interrogation I was told that executions were supposed to have been carried out in this operational area. Since I belonged to the same Regiment uninterruptedly until the summer of 1943 I would have heard something about it. If nevertheless it did occur? Then I consider it out of the question that parts of GERMANIA or any of its personnel took part in it.
I declare hearby on oath that I have no knowledge of such occurrences nor have I heard anything about it in conversation.


I have made the above statement voluntarily and without compulsion.


(sgd) Herbert CHRISTIANSEN


Signed in my presence
(sgd) M.ULLMAN WOI




L.D.C
12 July 1946




Distribution Copies
AG3 (VW) 1
JAG 2
File 5.


************************************************** ************************************************** **************************************************



CONFIDENTIAL


Report No WCIU/LDC/1263(a) U-HV
JAG Ref;- MD/JAG/FS/7/5 (2F)






VOLUNTARY STATEMENT BY PRISONER of WAR
LD 1459- OBERSCHARFUHRER -ERICH ODDEY III GERMANIA Regt



Description of my part in Operations at ST VENANT During the campaign in France May 1940


I served as a rifleman in the GERMANIA regiment, 9th Coy/III Battalion as Coy runner. The mot Regt GERMANIA came to the airfield of LILLERS as reserve; the III Bn being in the rear. The troops now dismounted, and the vehicles were parked. Our Coy was made ready on the airfield, but I do not know which Coy was on our right and which was on the left. This was at dawn. We were then bombed by our own airoraft. For this reason a change of clothing was carried out, but I no longer know exactly why. It was said that we had been mistaken for the enemy from the air. We then started in the direction of the canal, and all I remember is our reaching factory buildings. I believe it was those on the sketch. We lay down to rest, with some men on guard, but I do not know how many and over what area. I iwas quartered in a building with the 0C Coy. It was my Job to signal white flashes by means of Very pistols and bandoliers to the German aircraft during the march or while resting; besides this I carried the automatic pistol of the Coy Cmdr.
On the following day we dug in over the whole width behind the canal. I believe I could recognize the cana1 by the high banks. The enemy was said to have armour on the other side. Therefore the 14 Coy covered this with its guns. Engineers laid mines and plain wire concertinas. At sunset orders were given to start and we crossed the Canal as far as I could tell from the map shown . It was an asphalt road with a ditch on either side. We were conducted through the mines by Engineer Company Troops. Then 1st Platoon of 9th Coy turned off the road into a lane on the left and took up positions there. I do not know anything about our neighbouring units on the left and right I only know that the Coy battle HQ was in a house on the left side of the road not far from the lane. There the Coy Commander was billeted, also .several runners and myself.
The next morning I bicycled to the No 1 Platoon to take to them the order to attack. I returned on foot because the firing was too intense. The Coy battle HQ was under Artillery or Mortar fire. Later the 2 Platoon was also deployed on the left side of the road and the Coy Cmdr was moving alonug the road. A Dispatch rider from the Battalion passed and told us that Obersturmfuhrer POLLETIN Commander of 10th Coy had been killed. 10th Coy were said to have been on our right; I do not know who was on our left. The attack progressed slowly because the ground on the left where the Platoons were was very marshy and there were lots of ditches running across the ground. At about noon we reached ST VENANT and it was there that I saw 1st Platoon again for the first time since delivering their orders. But there were already German soldiers in the town.
At the other end of the town we rested a while on the road in front of the bridge. I fell asleep and was woken by a loud rumbling the first Artillery fire of my life. It was well-directed Artillery fire, and we escaped from it by rushing over the bridge out of the line of fire. It was the bridge over the LA LYS on the road to HAVERSKERQUE. One could clearly see the small town. I remember the church and the cemetery because we advanced on the left of the road and dug in not far from the town. We had casualties, DECKER, and HARZIG. Before that the anti-tank guns and Infantry Mountain Guns (J.G.Ks.) shelled the town. covering detachments which were further forward. It became dark and orders were given us to withdraw immediately behind the Canal because we had advanced too far.
We then arrived at a place behind the Canal where assault guns and armoured MG. carriers had arrived. Where this place was and what its name was I cannot tell by the map because it was dark and I could not see anything. I believe that the attack started again next morning. The armour was in front and also another Battalion which was probably one of our Regiment. I know that we passed through. ST VENANT once again far enough to see the forest. We also passed by the deserted British Artillery positions. We spent the night beyond HAVERSKERQUE. It was said that the Regiment "Der Fuhrer" was combing, a wood obliquely to us. In HAVERSKERQUE I saw British Prisoners of War for the first time, about 30 men who were taken to the rear guarded by two men, but I do not know where they were taken to. I do not believe that they were shot.
The next day it began to rain and it was only in the afternoon that we proceeded along the road into the wood where we found the assault guns already in position. After a short skirmish in the wood we came through it and could see the goods trucks on the railway. The Battalion Comdr POTTOWTSCH was wounded in this wood and RUMOR took over. As far as I remember we retreated obliquely to the left, and had to wait until the Rest of "Der Fuhrer" reached us. I did not see it myself but I believe we were heavily fired upon by this Regiment by mistake of course as it was night. I have drawn the sketch from the map of HASBROUCK and have reproduced from memory the movements of 9th Coy. I no longer remember the dates.


I have made the above statement voluntarily and without compulsion.




(Sgd) Erich ODDEY




Signed in my presence




: (Sgd) M ULLMAN WOI






LDC


Distribution Copies
JAG 2
AG3(VW) 1
File 5




12 July 1946








Jim

[ivor43]

Morning all.
First, Thanks Jim for the info, very interesting. But, and i am sorry for this, i do not think it is relevant to our time frame.
Let me try and justify my thoughts.
There are No Dates in the Statements. But from statements made by Koeke, i think it is possible to come to a conclusion. I believe this is Prior to the arrival of RWF/DLI etc
First. on their advance from Robecq they are met with M.G. fire from what might appear to be a prepared position. When RWF first encountered the Germans on their advance towards Robecq, 25/5/40 They Came under fire from the Germans who were in a prepared position. If you read the Statement of 4188082 Sgt Griffiths ( see thread of that Title) it does not correspond to the statement of Koeke. I believe that Koeke's statement refers to a fight with the English/French troops that had withdrawn to a defensive line from Robecq.
Secondly. Koeke refers to an Air Raid being called in. I am not sure of the date but i recall that the only air raid mentioned was recorded, 21st or 22/5.
Third. and this may be a little bit argumentative. I now think the air raid took out the 'French' bridge. We have the record of the Temporary Bridge mentioned. We also know that there was a German Engineering Unit operating Independently in the area. I now think that this 'Temporary Bridge' which is shown in the 2 Paintings we have seen was erected by the Germans to replace the bridge damaged in the air raid. The Bridging Equipment captured by RWF was actually the Support Vehicles belonging to this bridge.
fourth. Koeke states, with others, that when they passed through St Venant towards Haveskirque, there were No troops there. I think this could have only been on 23/5 before the arrival of RWF.
Although these statements are useful, i doubt that any of these units could have been involved with any thing after the 24th.

ivor

[Verrieres]

Sorry Ivor ,
I never put the statements up as relevant to the search for Anthony Corkhill The statements are from the War Crimes Files of 1946 They deal with the four cases which were investigated They deal with the actions relating to the Fall of St Venant not any particular day or time frame as I said in my other post
"This is of course all background information on the events at ST VENANT and there`s no direct link to Anthony Corkhill or his disappearance that we have found yet. I think this information falls under the heading of `Bad Character Evidence`

There are no WAR CRIMES relating to the DLI and RWF there was never officially an investigation into any so no evidence,no statements..nothing. I have posted these simply for information and for anyone who is interested to read the German account. They entered St Venant long before 2nd DIV arrived and left again on their arrival. If their were specific trials involving incidents against the 2DLI and RWF I do not think this search would ever have started because the references would have been there for us to find what we looked at was the possibility of an overlooked or ignored incident that is not in the files ALL trials were documented this is the ONLY one to have made it to an official investigation. In regards to Units,these are the only units which fought in St Venant Germania their Engineer Company (acting independently) and 3rd Panzer.If anyone else was there they were not there as a UNIT. Individuals I do not know but these were the Units they are not in dispute by either side. Sorry if I confused the issue I`ll return and post only items of a relevant nature directly concerning Anthony Corkhill.
Sorry again

Jim

[ivor43]

morning Jim.
First. there is Nothing to be sorry about. i probably didn't express myself very well.
I understand why you put them on and i appreciate you having done this.it is interesting info. But, as a cop i took many statements, witness , under caution,defendants etc, i am really at a loss as to why statements of this nature would be placed on a 'war Crimes' at all. their evidential value is about nil. if this was part of an attempt to incriminate Demilhuber it is a failure, none of these men witnessed anything. These seem to have been 'front line' unit men which i think would have been too busy looking after themselves to see what was going on Behind them. which is where these these atrocities were committed.
One witness states that '' Der Fuhrer'' was also in the area, were any of them south of the canal.
It would appear from their statements that none of these men ever went further east than St Venant bridge, at least when south of the canal, also none of these men appear to have been in the fight with RWF/DLI. so if this was to do with the fall of St Venant it was the fall on 22nd prior to the arrival of RWF/DLI on 24/25th. peculiar.
is there anything on file about the fight after the arrival of RWF/DLI. i know you said that there were no crimes reported against RWF/DLI. So does this mean that the ''Investigation'' stopped on or about 23rd. curious.
Jim, as far as i am concerned you can post whatever background info you have, because somewhere in this info May be the key to unlock this mystery


ivor

[Verrieres]

Hello Ivor,

No I was confusing people and leading them away from the main topic,the files deal with incidents up to the 28th May 1940 but these were `selected` cases. Reading my own posts I realise that it is unlikely if not impossible that there`s a file dealing with a War Crime relating to Anthony Corkhill it would be nice if it was so easy.
The way I look at it is before this started the only information Tony and his family had was Pte A Corkhill died `somewhere in France in 1940` that was the sum of the knowledge and whilst Tony looked for more I had stumbled on more on a parallel path so to speak with Ian Goddard who told me about his dads anguish at not knowing what befell his friend.Ian was in possession of an enquiry made by Anthony`s dad and RSM Goddards reply regarding the events of May 27th 1940. It was at this point that the two lines of enquiry came together and Tony was brought up to speed with events up until this date (27/05/1940) The next step was to find the next two days between his surrender and his death,what we need is a similar piece of luck because as Anthony Corkhills death inform message said `in view of information received and the lapse of time in which no further information has been received` blah blah `..presumed to have died from wounds on May 29th 1940`. Information received which MUST have related to May 29th 1940 not the 27th when the RSM seen him?

Here`s a scenario (hate these but) ;-

Army Clerk.." Sir there`s correspondence received from RSM Goddard regarding Pte Corkhill."

Officer in Charge of records.." Yes I saw that unfortunately it relates to the 27th which predates the information we have already have on him on the 29th...."

What did the original information say? Who was it from? They knew he was wounded but as this was the 29th May who else reported it if not RSM Goddard? That is what we need!

Hopefully that makes a little more sense than my clumsy attempt to stimulate more interest as the War Crimes trials appear to have no bearing on the ultimate goal of finding Pte A Corkhills last movements and ultimately his resting place? Hopefully this makes sense

Jim

[Verrieres]

Just to let people know the CWGC have released their records online I have had a quick look and some of the grave concentrations look to be in Regimental batches ? The lad next to Syd Walt is a Cpl but theres another three nearby ? Will this help I don't know the Unknowns have their date of death simply stated as MAY 1940.Anthonys records consist of nothing more than is already online.

Jim


Noticed the released notes are from 1954 in relation to St Venant. From the final list there has been at least two soldiers identified from originally being `unknown` Krabbe and Rodgers. No graves concentration information what so ever, I wonder why? It does exist M Faivre and the Mayor had copies and so do we .No mention of the exhumation`s and reburials of 1946? If this is all of their `archives` I`ll eat my hat! Censored, non controversial general office paper files nothing more.

[Verrieres]

Hello Everyone ,
Three months passed and sadly no further news. The MoD neither answered my initial Freedom of Information Request or my follow up enquiries into the MoD lack of response. Today there has been another request submitted but through the website ;-
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/

Will it prompt a successful conclusion ,we live in hope,what it does guarantee is a response which is more than I have had to date.:)

Jim

Nil desperandum Auspice Deo ("When God is on our side there is no cause for despair." or "Do not despair, have faith in God" or "Don’t despair, in God we trust")

[Baconwallah]

I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you, Jim.

John

[Verrieres]

From: CIO-FOI (MULTIUSER)
Ministry of Defence

30 November 2015 Dear Sir,

Your request has been logged under our reference 2015/***** and the target date for response is 22 Dec 2015

Yours sincerely

Information Rights team

Ministry of Defence


First response.

Jim

[Baconwallah]

Let's hope it will not be the last one, Jim. We've been there before.

Keeping fingers and toes crossed.

John

[Verrieres]

Update time

As expected it was `we do not have it` actually it wasn't this is what it said;-


The information you have requested is not held by the Ministry of Defence. However,
Under Section 16 of the Act (Advice and Assistance) you may find it helpful to note that we
are unable to find a reference to any document titled “Q80”

Have I been asking for the wrong document? or Have I got to ask for its specific reference number? (Even though they possibly know what I`m asking for?) Then I receive this on my website from someone calling themselves `truth-hunter`


Sir,
The document referred to as a Q80 Form in respect of Pte Corkhill may have the official title of
MI9 /INT / Q /80
The /80 being a handwritten reference to the standard form

Good luck http://static.websimages.com/JS/Punymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smile.gif

Whatever it is ,I have tried a fresh enquiry giving the reference quoted ( I`m sure this file reference was passed previously??) Anyhow nothing lost in trying (again).

Jim

[Baconwallah]

Worth another try, Jim. Nio doubt they'll find another subterfuge, though, But I wish you luck.

John

[Verrieres]

John this gets stranger


From same `Person` in the October 45 the St Venant File was returned to the British from SHAEF for possible future consideration included in the file was a `nominal roll` of possible victims ? The File reference was/is GAP 000.5-2 (104) Date 11th March 1945. The OIC was a Captain Barnes SIO Special Enquiries Branch. It gets weirder too they state his date of death was changed on the 19th March 1941 which can be confirmed in File Ref Cas 469/DLI. confirmed 26th November 1941

(The last date at least is correct????)


Jim

[Baconwallah]

More files for the to-do FOI list then, Jim. Whoever your anonymous source is, he seems to know what he's talking about.

John

[Verrieres]

Hello John,

Unfortunately the MoD have not taken kindly to being prompted with another file reference and are now stating they cannot (will not) help further. Yet the link they provided me gives confirmation of what `truth-hunter` has stated namely that the St Venant documents were returned and there file references are indeed correct,100% correct actually.
The MoD latest reply;-

As explained in the original reply, there is no documentation held by the MOD for the subject that refers to any 'Form Q80' or any variant of that.

However, there is a page on the National Archives website which may be of use to you:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk... (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8947204)

If not, I am sorry that we are unable to assist any further.

In reply ;-

Thank you once again for your reply however your reply states "As explained in the original reply, there is no documentation held by the MOD for the subject that refers to any 'Form Q80' or any variant of that". Can I point out that this was NOT what the original reply stated it simply said "We are unable to find a reference to "Q80" not any variant and that is why I elaborated on the reference.
The National Archive link you kindly provided only reinforces the fact that your MI9 section did issue Forms Q and if they are not held by the National Archives which brings us to the question" where exactly would they now be?" Your own criteria for the disposal and destruction of documents would prevent these Q80 documents being disposed of in any fashion?
The soldier in question is missing and has been for over 70 years yet it is obvious to anyone who has looked into this even briefly that there are documents which can shed light onto his fate yet there appears a reluctance to locate and produce them?
The MoD make great efforts to highlight the state of the art storage facilities they share with the NA `fifteen football pitches` wide and climate controlled yet you can state with 100% certainty within a day that you do not hold this document and you cannot help further? Or is it that no one actually knows what you actually have so its easier to state you do not hold them? Remember the soldiers wills you also didn't have? Or is it a case that its so long ago that no one believes we care anymore about a soldier that `disappeared` so long ago. Wrong on all counts we do care!
The link you provided confirms that my recent information that the documents relating to missing soldiers who may have been subject to War Crimes at St Venant in 1940 were returned from SHAEF on the 17th October 1945 in an envelope with the reference GAP 000.5-2 (104) Dated 11th March 1945. The OIC was a Captain Barnes SIO Special Enquiries Branch.
Details on Pte Corkhill`s record were changed on the 19th March 1941 which can be confirmed in File Ref Cas 469/DLI. confirmed 26th November 1941 are you so certain you cannot help further?
Yours sincerely,


Unfortunately I think it will antagonise them further...even if it is true!


Jim

[Baconwallah]

They won't like that at all.

John

[Verrieres]

Added to my request today by third party


The MOD's archives are a shambles. They have bits and pieces strewn all over the place. The information you are seeking is probably held under a Lord Chancellor's Instrument for 100 years so you've a few more years to wait. Ask them if this is so but, sadly, they will have no idea.

What`s a Lord Chancellors Instrument I asked myself ? From the MoD..................


The Public Records Act ordinarily requires that public records selected for permanent preservation at The National Archives are transferred before they are 30 years old. However, this requirement does not apply in certain circumstances where the Lord Chancellor has given his approval for their retention by the body holding them.

On 19 December 2011 the Lord Chancellor made a new instrument to authorise the retention beyond 30 years of public records where this is necessary for national security reasons.


Jim

[Verrieres]

Update;-

Despite repeated attempts the MoD insist that they do not hold the Forms Q we seek. They are adamant that if the document was marked for preservation it would be at the National Archives. They have provided links which unfortunately lead straight back to the MoD. The files are by their own admission made up not of ALL documents but SURVIVING documents. They also acknowledge that some form of notification was received but once the War Office had established a date of death it was not always necessary to retain that particular document?

May I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year and we will resume in 2016 :)

Best Wishes

Jim

[Verrieres]

Hi,

No I haven't forgotten about updating this thread the search goes on but as you can guess it is painfully slow (again) :)

Form Q is a document for recording mistreatment and war crimes it has also been suggested to me that a `Q` reference was used by graves registration units where possible identities were put forward for`unknown` graves ? The gentleman who contacted me about this has promised to send me an example but to date it hasn't arrived.

The original grave we looked at (which the CWGC denied existed despite featuring on their website) was the subject of a war crimes investigation and given the title `Schedule 7` The document I have names six crimes so I am assuming `Schedule 7` is another file `lost` to the public (Although it appears the list of occupants of the mass grave did originate from the `schedule 7` document (possibly the only surviving document or a duplicated document attached to both files)

The War Crimes investigation of six `murders` dates may be inaccurate and the CWGC dates of death are not only approximate but in some other cases pure fantasy with many listed as 10-31 May 1940 . On the 10th May the DLI were no where near St Venant. Previously we established that these type of dates were `last recorded sighting and date body was found` and we have always looked for the reference(s) to Anthony Corkhill from the last sighting to the time of his recorded death (27th-29th May) ? Indeed I did a search on Syd Walt in a bid to determine if he and Anthony were taken to the same aid station it appears from the reports that I have read that Pte Walt may have died of his wounds on the actual day of battle 27th May 1940 and his body was recovered from the battlefield on the 29th May 1940 and an assumed date of death given as 29th ? Likewise this may have happened in Anthony`s case where he has died/shot/murdered on the 27th and body recovered on the 29th May 1940 it would explain why no record of his capture or treatment in an aid station can be found ? Nothing concrete I`m afraid but I will follow up what leads I can


Best

Jim

[ivor43]

Good Morning Folks.
Jim, thanks for the update.
I have been thinking for some time about this thread. I have begun to wonder if we may have been wrong in some way with our basic argument. Your latest post adds to that thought.
we have all along treated Anthony as an Unknown. But is He, i am no longer sure. We have Evidence of his position from RSM Goddard on 27th. There must have been further Evidence for his Date of Death to be Specifically stated as 29th. so again Not Unknown. The Relevant Authorities MUST have held Documentation regarding Anthony. Probably other ''unknowns'' as well. So What Has Happened To it.
Is this a case,and i have no doubt there are others. Who were Not Unknowns at the Time, But have become ''Lost'' due to Administration Blunders.

If this argument is valid, then, surely, it becomes the Responsibility or Duty of the ''Powers that Be'' to investigate it, they have ''lost'' the Documentation.
i believe this should change the basis of your questions from ''have you got '' to '' you had this info so where is it, and if you have not now got it , Why.'' This apparent loss of info may apply to a lot of ''unknowns''.
Hope this thinking is of some use..


ivor

[Verrieres]

Hello Ivor,

In my latest round of discussion with `the man from the MoD` he was very open to the fact that the documents released to the National Archives were not necessarily complete but they were made up of the surviving records with many destroyed several years ago (possibly not envisaging any great interest?) If you recall Tony made an enquiry to the CWGC regarding one `unknown` buried next to Syd Walt ? He was told this unknown was a `Corporal` not a Private but there was no record of this on their database before Tony`s enquiry. In other cases I (and John) have stumbled on an error in the spelling or regimental numbers which `may` indicate who actually rests there. In my most recent investigation I even have a map showing one fellows grave who has been an `unknown` since 1944.
The MoD are not hiding the fact ,I`m afraid that a lot of documents are not `lost` but destroyed but in many instances I`m sure any enquiry is shifted to the `too hard ` box.

Jim

[andyparcell]

I am very interested in any detail of St Venant as my grandfather Albert Evans 1 st bat. RWF was killed there May 25th 1940 and is buried there. He was apparently blown up on a bridge with 6 or 7 others but I am not sure if this is accurate and would like to find any documentation or record of the events. I have a book about the battle written in French by a local historian which seems to tell of an Evans shot through the shoulder and later dying. He was aged 39 and had just been promoted to warrant officer.
If anyone has any info at all I would be very grateful of a reply

Yours hopefully

Andy Parcell

[ivor43]

good morning.

Welcome Andy.
I assume this is your Grandfather.

EVANS, ALBERT EDWARD Warrant Officer Class III 4180444 25/05/1940 38 Royal Welch Fusiliers United Kingdom Plot 4. Row C. Grave 38. ST. VENANT COMMUNAL CEMETERY

If you have the Book by M Faivre, you probably have a very good source of info re St Vennant. As you may recall M Faivre was very helpful in the search for Tom Rodgers, but has not seen fit to assist in this search for Anthony Corkhill.
i will see what i can come up with, but others may have more info than me.

ivor

[ivor43]

Hi. Ivor here again.
As you can appreciate ,this is a large thread. What i am going to write is from Memory. With regard to Dates. There is some Confusion with regard to Actual dates, for instance the War Diary has an error and the CWGC also has errors. So, Let us assume that the DoD was 25th. You state that the book says that Evans was wounded and died some time later. Evidence from the War Diary indicates that the unit was in St Vennant from the 24th. The Town, at that time, appears to have been Unoccupied as we have Evidence that a Party of German Bridge Engineers was seen approaching from Haveskirque, which were attacked, The main thrust continued through the Town until they came up against German Defenses just outside. The British troops were ordered to fall back to a Defensive line at St Floris. However this order was countermanded and they returned to the St Vennant area. This caused a massive amount of confusion, the British 'arty' who were firing from 'the Foret de Neippe' to the North were unaware of this change. and we have an actual ''Eye witness'' account of a 'Friendly Fire' incident.
As far as i can recall the Bridge was still intact when the German's took the Town on 26th.
in Summary. I think it highly likely that your Grandfather was wounded in the attack on the German Engineers who were crossing the bridge on 24th dying of his wounds the following day.
However this is Just My Opinion. others may think different. As i said previously this whole action is covered with Confusion.


ivor

[ivor43]

me again.
well the old memory still seems to be working. but this took a bit of digging back. to 16.2.15 post 802. Have a look at it ,page 81. again the date/info is subject to question as Capt Clough - Taylor was NOT KIA on 26th. He actually survived the War. this was painted whilst he was a PoW.

again just a posibility.


ivor

[ivor43]

Hi, me again.

I would just like to clarify something.in my post 882 i was considering the action against the German Engineers as the only 'Firefight' on or near the Bridge. i considered the action portrayed by Capt Clough - Taylor as part of the Strategic Withdrawal of the Brigade. This was a Withdrawal under fire so it may well be possible that this was when your Grandfather was wounded.Sorry about the error.(senior moment)


ivor

[Verrieres]

Its been quite awhile since I posted regarding Anthony Corkhill, I have had no contact from Tony but that `may` be down to email problems. I haven`t given up the search but there is a possibility that Anthony Corkhill may have actually been positively identified amongst the dead however in official records his name was `Corthill` and as there was no `Corkhill` it may have been assumed that the identification was made in error and the body was buried as an unknown (instead of common sense and regimental records being applied).
The `missing men` file which listed `Corthill` as dead appears to be from 1941 and was an assumption as I have obtained numerous copies of original casualty lists which have reference to `Anthony Corthill` as missing and presumed died of wounds from 1941 ? Then there`s an official amendment made stating past references to the name `Corthill` should be substituted for `Corkhill` the date of the amendment appears to correspond with Anthony Corkhill`s fathers correspondence on his sons disappearance and the repatriation of DLI stretcher bearers who were regarded as `Protected Personnel. . In the past I have assumed the investigation into Anthony Corkhill`s disappearance had either been lost or deliberately suppressed it could be no investigation was ever carried out because his name was simply never on any list?
The cause of death whether `murdered` or `died of wounds` is still not known the `Q` reference may relate to a war crime or such like or it could simply refer to `Q for Question `. The Question being `was` there a `Pte Anthony Corkhill` and referred for clarification which `may` have come back as a `NO` just `Corthill` ? Common sense would suggest the correct reply would have been "Are you sure Corthill isnt misspelled Corkhill " . I have found other references to `Q` references on the released CWGC grave registration files (not on Anthony Corkhill`s I might add. ) which refer to simple misspelled surnames which have resulted in the name being struck through and subsequently that soldiers name was added to a memorial rather than a marked grave.
If Anthony Corkhill was murdered or died of wounds I still don`t know but another real option I now have to explore is `Was Anthony buried as an unknown due to a simple clerical error?` The CWGC documents are from 1957 and do not show any of the original corrections I have asked if they retain earlier documents but was simply told the scanned documents on display were those which could be digitally scanned and reproduced online which to me reads "Yes we may have earlier but these are in poorer condition?"
The returning DLI stretcher bearers (6 found and verified to date) confirm they were captured by the SS or as they called them `The Deaths Head Hussars` and they described the fighting as frenzied. One in particular brought back with him a skull ring from an SS Trooper (although how he retained this through a year in captivity is not stated)
Documentation regarding shootings at St Venant were sent to SHAEF according to the MoD but the St Venant ones were sent back to the War Office reference GAP 000.5-2 (104) Dated 11th March 1945. The OIC was at this time a Captain Barnes SIO Special Enquiries Branch.
Details on Pte Corkhill`s record were changed on the 19th March 1941 to assumed as `Died of Wounds` with confirmation of death in File Ref Cas 469/DLI 26th November 1941 . It was November 1941 that the Stretcher Bearers came home ? More questions and no answers I`m afraid.
One thing I did find in an old newspaper search was an appeal by a Robert (Bob) Corkhill for anyone who served with Anthony Corkill to get in touch ? `Bob` stated he had records from the DLI but needed to speak with those who had been there?`



Best Wishes


Jim

[Baconwallah]

Good to hear from you again, Jim. Don't give up!

John

[Verrieres]

Hello John,

No I wont give up Thanks. Today this was brought to my attention and just brings the task of finding the relevant documents back into the realms of reality? The TV show `Dickinsons Real Deal ` had a young man selling his Grandfathers documentation regarding the investigation of war crimes in 1940 ? The Grandfather was a German born British Intelligence officer Major Richard Richter. Amongst the documents were statements from German and British troops involved in massacres including those at Wormhout and le Paradis. SS statements and British witnesses which the Grandson stated showed there was a miscarriage of justice in not prosecuting a senior German SS General. The seller wanted originally £150 but the dealers willingness to offer more (£450) led him to auction the documents.
The Auction was held at Peter Wilson Auctioneers ,prior to the sale The Intel Corps Museum made him (seller) an undisclosed offer which he refused .The bidding started at £700 and the documents sold to an internet bid of £1000. Take home for the seller £800. Perhaps this is one of the reasons the MoD cannot find the records because they are in individual hands?


My first thought was they should have been bought back by the Government ..but they were the ones who lost them originally :(

Cheers

Jim

[Verrieres]

Is it really so long since I updated this thread. Time does indeed fly. First, although the search goes on and has now been joined by other families of other soldiers lost at St Venant I have taken a back seat to see if actual blood relatives have any better luck unlocking the records which I am constantly told do not exist.
On a similar journey, I undertook a search to uncover the fate of another DLI soldier but this time I was a little more successful, finding two eyewitness statements and a sketch map of his grave . The soldier was buried as an unknown next to a named officer . The officer was moved to a CWGC cemetery however the CWGC insist that although they accept that this was probably my soldier theres no record he was ever moved from his temporary battlefield grave and have no exhumation records relating to this nor any maps of the temporary graves . My arguement that they would not exhume the officer without the soldier was met with `the grave could have been bombed or shelled and lost prior to the exhumation ` Yet the record of the exhumation of the officer survived? I asked about the statements I had and the sketch map and was told they were aware of these in 1946 when the former commanding officer enquired about the same soldier . The view was if the investigation team in 1946 didnt act then there was nothing new now to change the policy. Without the CWGC approval it won`t be elevated to the JCC so there it ended . Email after Email all met with "no,that doesnt change anything`
Probably be the same attitude should `Tony` turn anything up . I havent spoken to Tony for quite a few years and I notice his profile here has him listed as a `guest` . Hopefully if he has uncovered something he will pop in and let us know ? Up until now I have still drawn a blank :(

Happy New Year everyone

Jim

[Baconwallah]

Long time no see, Jim. Good to have you back.

Re you unproductive discussions with the CWGC, I have a similar experience with the MOD who maintain that a man of 1 RWF who died in Dec 1914 changed his identity and regiment on the way from his original grave to the concentration cemetery.

Happy New Year and keep safe!

John

[Verrieres]

Thanks John, After we searched for Ferme Boulet for so long , I eventually discovered there was indeed an `Unknown` buried at the farm of Victor Boulet . He is at St Venant Communal Cemetery but again no one knows nothing about it . People with long memories will recall Teecees original appeal
" at around noon on the 27th May 1940, a British soldier, wounded in both legs, was shot in the head by an SS Officer in the vicinity of Farm Boulet. A few days later he was buried, more or less where he was shot, near the road to Robecq. The farm may have been owned or tenanted by a Victor Boulet who was one of two witnesses to this shooting and gave this farm as his address."
Well we found where the farm had been and then confirmation of the unknown buried at the farm then silence (again) Still chipping away though :)

Jim

[Verrieres]

Perhaps an avenue to explore post lockdown . The Germans recorded every PoW they had ,even if that PoW died shortly afterwards ,it was recorded ? (I have found quite a few who died in German hands when they have been previously listed as killed in action?
These records ,or what survives of them are held at the National archives under reference WO 416 . There are also a number of cards for individuals who are listed as 'unknown' at WO 416/415-417. The entries on these cards are written in German only (and are usually noted as English with a blue cross). It will be interesting to find what information these `unknown (Dead` cards contain .

Jim

[Verrieres]

Little snippet just to keep people updated . Anthony Corkhill`s date of death was officially recorded on `War Office Instruction` [?] his `Died of Wounds` classification came on the authority of `R` Casualties [?] Records were closed and sent for filing `to Inf Records Edinburgh` on 20th September 1945.

Just for update

Cheers

Jim

[Baconwallah]

All sounds a bit "under the carpet" Jim. No help from the MoD, I suspect.

Might the CWGC know what "R" Casalties means?

John

[Verrieres]

They say not ,but the only thing I get from them these days is `have you got the soldiers service records` {yes but it doesnt help} Just on a side note I have found a missing DLI Sergeant commemorated on the Brookwood Memorial . He was actually buried in Glasgow in an unmarked grave ! The CWGC have agreed to mark the grave having accepted the documentation submitted to them , Still looking for Pte Corkhill

Cheers

Jim

[Baconwallah]

Good work, Jim. Never give up.

John