saint venant 1940-------farm boulet [Archive] - Page 2

ivor43

30-07-2012, 07:03

Good Morning.
I really am going to have to stop these late night thinking sessions, I am loosing too much beauty sleep. I need all I can get.
But the accounts of RAF Pilots I referred to earlier got me thinking.
You mentioned a Café owned by a M Tavernier, or something like that. If this is not far from the Cemetery, then is it not likely that it would have been used by the HQ staff. As Anthony was a messenger then it is probable he would have been sent to the Café for fresh supplies of tea/coffee etc. quite often.

As they were in this position for a couple of days he would have got to know the owner.
Now as I said earlier if Goddard had given Anthony Morphine and others had given him theirs as they would not need them as POW’s , He could have enough for a couple of days. As soon as he found he could move, might he not have made for the Café where he had friends.(Owner/ Waitress?)
He could well have been here over night and next morning when the owner went off early to get supplies from a local farm (Farm Boulet) Anthony could have been hidden in the back of his wagon. Some RAF guys were hidden under loads of Hay or Turnips things like that.
If he was hidden in the barn, then the farmer and young lady (waitress?) did’nt find him. They knew he was there, from early morning 28th until he was found sometime on 29th by the SS. And I suspect that they were made to witness his shooting as punishment for helping him.
John, before you enter me for another Literary Award. Think very hard about this.
Jim and Tony say he was never posted missing. Why? Because he was with witnesses all the time who could account for him.
A number of the RAF guys were also shot. Because They Were In Civy Clothing given to them by the locals. If this happened to Anthony he could have been shot as a SPY. It was done.

Ivor.

Baconwallah

30-07-2012, 10:19

A possible scenario, Ivor. Good thinking again. But although I like the love interest and the heroism of all involved, I do see a couple of flies in the ointment.

The DLI arrived late at night on the 25th. Men had already been killed in the past week, the survivors had had little sleep. Occasional shelling, enemy aircraft overhead, sounds of battle (B Coy RWF at Robecq) in the distance. The 26th was spent in feverishly organising the defences of the HQ farm. An attack could come at any moment. Not a very good time to go boozing and getting to know the natives in a café which was part of the outer defences (and therefore probably not functioning anyway). This wasn't Salisbury Plain or Hohne Camp, it was the front line in a fighting war.

With Germans all over the place, the French probably not back yet, wounds in both legs, drowsy from the morphine, a crawl of some 500 yards over shelled ground to the corner café is somewhat improbable.

Last but not least, if this is what happened he would not have been an anonymous body in a ditch. He would have been a local hero and M Faivre would have heard the story and mentioned it in his book.

John

ivor43

30-07-2012, 12:34

John.
A couple of good points,however your feverish preparation of defenses, would a batman have a role in this or would he be more of a 'Gofer' and i am pretty sure while waiting for his order to be completed he would chat to whoever was doing it.and i said tea/coffee i did not mention Booze. But as i said before when the morphine kicked in it may have been possible for him to walk 500 meters, with difficulty to the cafe.
Also i thought, from a map you put on, that the front line appeared much further south.
While looking for something else i found the following.

http://www.worcestershireregiment.com/wr.php?main=inc/german_h_kallmeyer.

I was looking for any indication of the nature of Antony's wounds and in ww2 talk i found this post of yours Jim
''he states when he left your uncle he had minor wounds to both legs and neck but was quite well apart from this.RSM Goddard wished to take Anthony with them but the German soldiers present refused and said their field hospital units were in the area and would take care of him .Indeed RSM Goddard came across stretcher bearers shortly after they ''
John this might change the situation, as i was under the impression that i had read that he could not walk ? Jim could you clarify please.

Ivor

Baconwallah

30-07-2012, 13:27

A very interesting link, Ivor! The translation is awful, though, looks like it was done by Google. Kallmeyer apparently served with the SS Verfügungsdivision, which on the 27th supported 3 Pz Div on the right flank and took part in the advance to Calonne and Merville. Unfortunately he gives no details of his activities on the 26th and 27th. On the 24th he seems to have been involved in the abortive German advance through St Venant, which late that night was recalled to the Aire canal on Hitler's orders.

I very much doubt the café was functioning as such when the DLI were on the scene. It had been incorporated in the defences [Townsend diary], which ran along the railway line south of St Venant (see the 1917 map in one of my earlier posts; both café and railway have since disappeared). I'm sure that, with an enemy attack expected at any moment, the owners of a café 150 yards behind the front line would have been advised to get the hell out of there, if they hadn't already reached that conclusion themselves.

Anthony would have been employed in organising the defences, with all the others. I doubt his position as batman to the RSM would have exempted him from those duties, at the time much more important than making tea (or going out to buy it) for his superior officer.

I was under the impression that Anthony was left on the canal bank precisely because he could not walk and the group of PoWs had to cross some difficult terrain (boggy meadows, heavily shelled no doubt) so could not carry him. "I certainly gained the impression that his wounds were not fatal. We wanted to take him with us but as we had no means of carrying him and the ground was very rough the German guards ordered us to make him comfortable and leave him to be collected by their field ambulance which was working in the vicinity."

John

jungle1810

30-07-2012, 14:37

Hello,
I have placed a diagram of the Rue Harrison in the forum photo it is off the Rue de Merville D 122 gallery I also put 2 more photos of the British Military Cemetery in the forum gallery as a point of interest. Regards RBD

Verrieres

30-07-2012, 15:39

John.
A couple of good points,however your feverish preparation of defenses, would a batman have a role in this or would he be more of a 'Gofer' and i am pretty sure while waiting for his order to be completed he would chat to whoever was doing it.and i said tea/coffee i did not mention Booze. But as i said before when the morphine kicked in it may have been possible for him to walk 500 meters, with difficulty to the cafe.
Also i thought, from a map you put on, that the front line appeared much further south.
While looking for something else i found the following.

http://www.worcestershireregiment.com/wr.php?main=inc/german_h_kallmeyer.

I was looking for any indication of the nature of Antony's wounds and in ww2 talk i found this post of yours Jim
''he states when he left your uncle he had minor wounds to both legs and neck but was quite well apart from this.RSM Goddard wished to take Anthony with them but the German soldiers present refused and said their field hospital units were in the area and would take care of him .Indeed RSM Goddard came across stretcher bearers shortly after they ''
John this might change the situation, as i was under the impression that i had read that he could not walk ? Jim could you clarify please.

Ivor

The letter...should read the letters!.....The one we are using is the Red Cross Varient following an appeal to Switzerland in 1941 from the British Red Cross at the request of Anthonys family.Only one enquiry was made to RSM Goddard who replied in September 1941 (I believe).There exists another letter that from the RSM to Anthonys family.The third and the one I was first aware of in relation to the minor/flesh wounds came from the son of RSM Goddard whom I was in contact with years before I became aware of Tonys quest.This situation troubled the RSM that much he spoke of it with his family. I had copies of all of them ...but now for the problem..I cannot find them! A few years ago a spectacular PC crash resulted in a lot of lost files ..most I recovered but the software I used to recover them renamed each file with a random number! Which makes it pretty hard to find any of my old files plus since this crash I have backed up my work on external hard-drives..just in case.I will come across them again when I have a little time a paragraph from the family letter was reproduced on my website it read;-

"I heard your son's voice calling me from the canal bank. I immediately went over to him and found that he had a flesh wound in the neck also wounds in both legs. He was concious at the time and spoke to me quite rationally. I certainly gained the impression that his wounds were not fatal. We wanted to take him with us but as we had no means of carrying him and the ground was very rough the German guards ordered us to make him comfortable and leave him to be collected by their field ambulance which was working in the vicinity. We met some stretcher bearers shortly afterwards and informed them as to your sons whereabouts. The fighting in the area had ceased so that there was no apparent danger of him receiving further wounds."
Theres loads of my stuff on that WW2 Talk site but I do not post there any more.
On the subject of letters (and computer crashes) I have a copy of M.Faivres letter to Tony from May 2011.M.Faivre points out that he has had major problems due to his computer crashing and the files relating to St Venant are amongst them.He asks for all available information including a photograph of Anthony. He does point out he has many enquiries from relatives to deal with before he can look into this and has a major project opening in Cassel in May 2012 (I was there in June and its not finished!) He points out he was very lucky to identify Tom Rodgers and quotes another case where eyewitnesses to a soldiers death (Pte Fytche 2 DLI)were found, reports record as being killed on or around the 26th-27th yet the body is in RENESCURE CHURCHYARD reportedly killed on the 15th May 1940 some 12 days before ! He confirms he has all of the index cards and documents which the Mayor collected together in 1940 and asks for patience.
I will bottom out the letters issue.

Best

Jim

Verrieres

30-07-2012, 20:26

Okay ,Found them apart from the one from RSM Goddards son which may have been an E-Mail on my last computer.RSM Goddard made his own enquiries whilst in the Camp and found no clue to Anthony`s fate (The letter is written in pencil and is very feint in parts) What is clear is RSM Goddard was NOT with Anthony at the time of his own capture he specifically said ;-

I was captured on the 27th May 1940 at St Venant and as I was being moved to the rear I heard your son call out to me....
In relation to Anthonys wounds he lists the flesh wound to his neck then mentions the leg wounds..I may be reading too much into this but humour me particularly you Ivor as an ex-Police officer if you came across an injured party in the street when you call it in and request an ambulance which injuries would you list first?...The most serious? ie;- He has two gunshot wounds to his legs and a flesh wound to the neck. Its got me thinking that Ivor has a point , Anthony may have had trouble travelling over rough terrain but he may have had some mobility..?
Now I`m going to throw a spanner in the works! In the letter from Anthonys family to RSM Goddard after Goddards release there is a reference to the date of Anthonys capture given by the Red Cross(hopefully a typo) ...24th May 1940.
There is also mention of correspondance from, what I read as, Pte Towns (faded) of the Durham Light Infantry to Anthonys mother stating her son was in their camp suffering from memory loss and a stomach wound ? A mistaken identity very likely I do not know what happened to Pte Towns but there is no Pte Towns listed for the DLI in the 1945 PoW Roll???? I`ll go away and see what I can (if anything) find on Pte Towns.
Best

Jim

PS.Before I forget I found this image at the IWM Collection its from 1918 but it says it was one of the Bridges at St Venant??
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff390/whoproudlyserved/memorial%20alamein/large.jpg

Baconwallah

30-07-2012, 20:37

The Pte Towns/Towne story is interesting. If it is true, he must have known and recognised Anthony.

The drawing shows the drawbridge across the Aire canal at la Pierrière. See my 1917 map [post #25], square P20. Seeing the bridge, it is obvious why the French army built a Pigeau bridge alongside it.

I wouldn't attach much importance to the order of the wounds as given by Goddard. No doubt, knowing his batman well, he looked at his face first of all and thus noticed the neck wound. Then he checked for other wounds.

John.

teecee1941

30-07-2012, 22:18

Jim,

This probably means nothing but you never know. RSM Goddard, after speaking singularly, ''I heard his voice, I went over to him'' etc.. A sentence or two later he says ''We wanted to take him with us''......''.We had no means of carrying him''.........''The German guards ordered us to make him comfortable'' ---- If the situation went from 'I' to 'We', who were the others and when did they turn up? Most importantly, how far could they have carried him before the guards called a halt. If he wasn't gravely wounded, he may have been able to put up with a bit of discomfort before the carriers were made to put him down and leave him to be picked up by the stretcher bearers.

Another thing that keeps bugging me is this;- As RSM Goddard's batman, Anthony would surely have been quite well known to all the other lads. Well known enough to be recognised without the need to read his dog tags. If a few people saw him killed, it would have been immediately obvious who he was and the word would have went around that Goddard's batman had been killed. Seeing as how RSM Goddard survived the war, some time at the end of it, someone would have mentioned on the grapevine that they had heard that his batman had been killed. It is more likely of course that he was killed and nobody saw it. I suppose this all adds to the ever-growing list of 'What ifs'.

teecee1941

30-07-2012, 22:58

Re Pte Towns;- I have the original letter sent by Anthony's father to RSM Goddard at the end of the war. It was forwarded to me by RSM Goddard's son a few months ago. When I read that Pte Towns had been in touch with the family to say that Anthony had been in the same camp as him with a stomach wound and loss of memory, I immediately dismissed this as a case of mistaken identity. The Red Cross say there are no records of Anthony being in a POW camp. In any case, the stomach wound is not consistent with what we already know. It is however, quite puzzling how Pte Towns managed to send a letter to Anthony's father 'once or twice' during the time he was in a POW camp. More puzzling is how did he get Anthony's family's address?

I did, a week or two ago, find another Corkhill in the DLI. Perhaps he was the one in the POW camp with the stomach wound but then again, how did Pte Towns get the correct address?

Is there anything in this story that is not a mystery?

ivor43

30-07-2012, 23:07

John.
If this info re his wounds is correct then this really could make a massive difference. If we have a fairly mobile, with P/K’s, Anthony, then anything is possible. Getting to the Café would not have been a problem.
And in order for him not have been posted MIA his position must have been known. But by whom?
I still think my idea has merit, of course.:)

But I am wondering about my idea that Anthony may have been wearing ‘civies’, in order to get him out of the area. The problem with this is, if Anthony is not in uniform then the terms of the Geneva Convention no longer apply to him, and his lack of Dog Tags, make this even worse. This situation not only applied to RAF being aided with clothing by locals but also to Escaped POW’s. there are a number of instances of executions, as Spy’s, by the SS, in these sort of circumstances.
So their denial of shooting a soldier, would at least to them, be quite justified.

Now if my memory is correct then I think I read that the War Crimes Commission did not fully investigate one of the incidents which sort of seems odd.
Unless.( fantasy time John.)
If you have the report of a body, Shot by the SS, in front of witnesses. And the only means of ID are these witnesses, this is not good evidence. Hearsay and not acceptable.
I would think for an investigating officer, this is very difficult. You know what was going on. You know the witnesses are telling the truth. But you do not have official identification. So what can you do, record it, but you can not investigate it.
But that is not the most difficult part. Every one is looking for a Uniform, even M Faivre. If there is even the remotest possibility of this scenario. Then maybe someone should possibly have looked for an apparent civy with leg wounds.

Back to reality.
Jim, you are right I would have called the more serious first. But I tend to agree with John, a neck wound would be easier to spot then a minor leg wound.
But you know a stomach wound cold be anything from a scratch to something much more serious.
However the Memory loss could explain some odd things :-
Might it not account for his leaving his Dog Tags back in UK.
If RSM Goddard was aware of it as I assume he would if Pte Towns was aware of it.
might it not account for his apparent protection of Anthony.
But what ever caused this must have occurred before they left UK.
Very odd indeed.

ivor

Baconwallah

30-07-2012, 23:13

The Red Cross say there are no records of Anthony being in a POW camp.

If it was indeed Anthony, the combination of missing dog tag and missing memory would have kept him out of the Red Cross books as Anthony Corkhill. He would be in the Red Cross books as "Anon" or whatever term they used. He wouldn't be the only one either.

John

Baconwallah

30-07-2012, 23:20

Ivor, M Faivre in his book describes the case of a wounded DLI soldier named Robert, who waited until the Germans had gone, found shelter in a house and several days later, when the locals returned, was lovingly cared for by them and taken to a civilian hospital. In the end he was betrayed and subsequently disappeared. If something like this had happened to Anthony, the locals would have known all about it and would still remember and re-tell the story. They don't.

Goddard only said "wounded in both legs", and that could be anything from superficial scratches to shell fragments close to the femoral arteries. I think it is a bit dangerous to accept Anthony was "fairly mobile" - if he was, why couldn't they take him with them? "We could not carry him" is what Goddard said. Apparently he needed to be carried.

John

ivor43

31-07-2012, 00:19

John.
That was not that unusual there were instances of RAF lads who stayed with families for an extended period of time, until someone betrayed them. But this is not quite the same. This is possibly Anthony being moved out a matter of hours after his comrades, in the same direction in which they had gone, maybe putting him within a couple of miles of them. As we know they were in the Forest. And if this farm was supplying customers from the south, then it was very likely to have customers to the north.
Hmmm
This loss of memory intrigues me as I said in my previous post. But I would be surprised if any record would be found in his Med Records. But, Tony, if Goddard was protecting his old friend because of it, he may not have been that well known. However if his Med Record is available it might make interesting reading. the same if we could come up with a P/M Report.
With regard to the idea of Anthony becoming a local hero. I think in the situation it would be a case of, If you don’t know you can’t tell, so maybe the only people who knew were the St Venant people and the farmer.

Ivor

Verrieres

31-07-2012, 00:46

A little more information for you regarding the Private who contacted the Corkhill Family I eventually found a Pte Towns the only DLI Towns anyway...4448417 Pte J A towns Prisoner of war number 3500 Camp in 1945 Stalag 21B his number gives me an enlistment date of between 24th January 1930 to 7th May 1931.Anthony Corkhill was in the next intake enlisting between 1st May 1931 and march 1933(Source Army Form B 358)
I have also read here that Tony has found another Corkhill who served with the Durham Light Infantry I know of a Pte H Corkhill also a Prisoner of War ,PoW number 32341 Stalag 344.4866292 Pte H Corkhill originally enlisted in the Leicestershire Regiment.
There also appears to be another Diary/Biography with a Chapter/Section on the mans capture at St venant.Unpublished account by Lt M Farr 2 DLI Signals I`ve tracked down the original to the Durham Records Office in Durham city.
Best
jim

Baconwallah

31-07-2012, 13:21

M Faivre in his book recounts the experiences of the villagers. Some remained in St Venant itself, sheltering in their cellars, but most people had fled or had been evacuated and these did not return until May 29th at the earliest. Some did not return until June.

He knows of only two cases where British soldiers received civilian help, One was the soldier named Roger, described in my previous post. The other case concerned two men who had sheltered in a barn in Robecq, were given civilian clothes and left for Merville but then found themselves in the middle of a German convoy and were either captured or shot.

If Anthony had received civilian help in getting away, there would still be a local memory of the fact. There isn't. I think we can discount this one.

Having checked the witness statements of the St Venant War Crimes commission, it appears that atrocities were committed to the west of St Venant, in the southern part of St Venant itself (the hospital) and further east in Calonne and Merville. I can find no reports of atrocities along the canal bank in the cemetery - Taverne Farm area.

Summing up, I think we have only two possibilities:

- Anthony died where he was left by RSM Goddard, either from his wounds or because he was murdered.
- Anthony was evacuated by the German stretcher bearers and either died in a field hospital (the one at Merville being the most likely) for whatever reason or very possibly ended up in a PoW camp with memory loss due to his experiences or new wounds (the St Venant area was still within range of British artillery when the PoWs were being rounded up by the Germans).

Anything else contains too many 'ifs' for my liking.

John

ivor43

31-07-2012, 20:36

John.
Sadly at the moment IF’s are all we have, not very satisfying, The only Eye Witnesses we have at the moment are the Major. And RSM Goddard with regard to Anthony’s wounds, possibly. And the couple who witnessed his murder, if that was Anthony. And he could have been any where along the canal.
He could have been picked up by the German’s which could put him in the Calonne Aid Post, which I would favour, or maybe somewhere else ????
Goddard might of underestimated his wounds so he might have died where he was. He might have died at the aid post.
If his wounds were superficial, with a shot of Morphine he could have been reasonably mobile. ETC,ETC.
Believe me this is an investigative nightmare. But I did not expect anything else. This Is a major challenge, but I am not about to give up any time soon.
I may be throwing seemingly impossible scenario’s, they are all based on aspects of what we know, with interpretation. You found a book, Jim found a café. I am waiting for info as to why we have a Rue De Col Harrison. I am trying to test one aspect of the Majors Evidence. We can not accept the RSM and ignore the Major.
What we need is a large flash of inspired genius or a bit of Divine Guidance. But I suspect that it will be down to good old fashioned spade work.
Right.
TeeCee. A question if I may, and I hope you won’t think me cheeky. But I am trying to get an idea of what Anthony may have been capable of.
So if you are willing could you give us an idea of what Anthony was like, for example was he the sort of person who could overcome minor leg wounds and carry on.

Ivor.

teecee1941

31-07-2012, 21:42

John.
Sadly at the moment IF’s are all we have, not very satisfying, The only Eye Witnesses we have at the moment are the Major. And RSM Goddard with regard to Anthony’s wounds, possibly. And the couple who witnessed his murder, if that was Anthony. And he could have been any where along the canal.
He could have been picked up by the German’s which could put him in the Calonne Aid Post, which I would favour, or maybe somewhere else ????
Goddard might of underestimated his wounds so he might have died where he was. He might have died at the aid post.
If his wounds were superficial, with a shot of Morphine he could have been reasonably mobile. ETC,ETC.
Believe me this is an investigative nightmare. But I did not expect anything else. This Is a major challenge, but I am not about to give up any time soon.
I may be throwing seemingly impossible scenario’s, they are all based on aspects of what we know, with interpretation. You found a book, Jim found a café. I am waiting for info as to why we have a Rue De Col Harrison. I am trying to test one aspect of the Majors Evidence. We can not accept the RSM and ignore the Major.
What we need is a large flash of inspired genius or a bit of Divine Guidance. But I suspect that it will be down to good old fashioned spade work.
Right.
TeeCee. A question if I may, and I hope you won’t think me cheeky. But I am trying to get an idea of what Anthony may have been capable of.
So if you are willing could you give us an idea of what Anthony was like, for example was he the sort of person who could overcome minor leg wounds and carry on.

Ivor,

I certainly don't think you are cheeky and I don't mind answering any questions. Sadly, Anthony died 18 months before I was born but I've always 'known him'. I was always aware that he had died in the war from the time I became aware of what was going on around me. In 1945, when I was four, I can remember my parents discussing the fact that he had been wounded and the ground was too rough to manhandle him to hospital. As I grew up it became more and more apparent that he was never going to be found it was obvious that his siblings had been extremely fond of him.

I do know that he was quite a sensitive, reserved person not given to getting into drunken fights or arguments. My mother always said that he had been a lovely man, kind, reliable and unselfish. From what I know of him, I am sure that he would have suffered his wounds in a soldierly way because my father once described him as always 'being happy with his lot, he didn't want any fuss'

I realise that it is difficult to descibe a relative without being too generous but this is the way his family spoke of him.

Ivor.

ivor43

31-07-2012, 23:36

TeeCee.
Thank you. That was good of you. I appreciate it.
Sounds like a good guy. And you know, Tony, that people like Anthony who are ‘’ happy with their lot’’ often do remarkable things.
I have met many Anthony’s in my 68 yrs and I know I would prefer to have a bunch of them around in a tight spot. Generally keep a cool head.
So I am quite happy with the idea that he would do whatever he could to get out of there and get back to his unit, rather than sit around waiting to be captured, if he could.
Thanks again.

Ivor.

Verrieres

01-08-2012, 18:09

As promised I have made some enquiries with the CWGC in relation to Unknowns buried at St Venant ,Merville and more recently Haverskerque.The first reply dealing with St Venant and Merville was received today and is set out below:-

I would explain that attempts were made during both world wars to locate and register graves, but in battlefield areas many soldiers were never buried, and the graves of those who were buried were sometimes destroyed in subsequent fighting, or temporary grave markers were lost or became illegible. In areas which were lost to the enemy or were very close to the front line, graves registration was often delayed for months, or even years. The Commission does not have information on the circumstances of death and initial disposal of remains for servicemen and women with no known grave.<O:P></O:P>
Having checked our archival documents I can confirm that no unknown casualty that served with the Durham Light Infantry is buried in St. Venant Communal cemetery or Merville Cemetery.<O:P></O:P>
I hope you find this information useful.<O:P></O:P>
Yours sincerely<O:P></O:P>

<O:P></O:P>

Argy Francis (Mrs)<O:P></O:P>

Enquiries Administrator<O:P></O:P>

Hopefully the reply dealing with Haverskerque will be more encouraging.

Best

Jim

Baconwallah

01-08-2012, 19:26

If I'm not mistaken, St Venant and Merville together have 58 unknowns. CWGC records show that none of these were DLI - hard to believe.

Unknowns come in two varieties, totally unknown and partially unknown i.e. only the rank or regiment is known. Of those casualties of which the regt is known. none served with the DLI. OK, I can accept that. But how about the really unknowns, I wonder?

John

Verrieres

01-08-2012, 20:54

If I'm not mistaken, St Venant and Merville together have 58 unknowns. CWGC records show that none of these were DLI - hard to believe.

Unknowns come in two varieties, totally unknown and partially unknown i.e. only the rank or regiment is known. Of those casualties of which the regt is known. none served with the DLI. OK, I can accept that. But how about the really unknowns, I wonder?

John

I believe they have answered my direct question rather well....I never asked if any of the unknowns were DLI ..of course if they are total unknowns they are exactly that.This was the question I posed to the CWGC .In hindsight I should have posted both Question and answer.Sorry for any confusion.

Comments: I wonder if you can tell me if there are any headstones at St Venant Communal Cemetery and Merville Cemetery from the May 1940 period which are known to be from The Durham Light Infantry but whose personal details are unknown ie The unknown headstone bears a DLI Regimental crest ? Any help you can provide would greatly assist in tracing the last movements of a friends uncle Pte Anthony Corkhill who is commemorated on the Dunkirk Memorial and is listed as died on the 29th May 1940.Thank you
Best
jim

Baconwallah

01-08-2012, 21:15

Pity the CWGC didn't add how many headstones have a regimental crest, out of the 58 unknowns.

John

ivor43

01-08-2012, 22:02

Hi All
I have been reviewing earlier stuff ,before I got involved and in post 6 and 10 ap1 quotes from the RWF diary. Whilst we are in agreement that they may be I bit suspect it’s all we have.
It states that HQ Coy tried to withdraw to Haverskirque but in the course of the withdrawal suffered heavy casualties from mortar fire.
So does this put what is left of HQ Coy in Haverskirque, not the cemetery, or Calonne, Or did they fall back ??? any info ??
BN HQ, what remained of D Co the rest of A and C Co’s under Capt Pritchard were still at St Venant, where’s Col Harrison?
A and C Co’s were ordered to take up position on 2 DLI’s left flank holding the St Venant – Calonne Rd.( St Floris Eastwards ?)
Would I be right in assuming that the diary would be kept at HQ which now could be at Haverskirque. Which would explain one puzzle, I was’nt really aware that there was a HQ Co. I thought there where only Bde,Bn and Co HQ’s. or is this Brigade HQ
This might explain something else, which I will come to later.
In post 10 is the report that the bridge was blown, can we ignore YDG for now and concentrate on what we have,
The bridge is blown, A and C Co’s together with the remnant of D Co 2DLI are spread somewhere to the east. The only way over the Lys is to swim, under fire they take 30% casualties, seems reasonable so far, but one problem, where is Col Harrison?.
Well Major Townsend sees him crossing fields towards Haverskirque, towards HQ?
Did he swim the Lys?
At this point the Brigadier decides to relocate to La Motte, this I assume is La Motte De La Bois a small village on the road north from Merville, on the eastern side of the Foret De Neippe. As to how they got there I have no idea, they may have gone east through La Corbe then north somewhere, without having to go as far as Merville.
Now this is not fantasy, well maybe the Col swimming the Lys, it is based on
The 2 diaries, somewhat at odds with YDG.
So where is the Colonel. ?
My purpose in this post is to try and prove why we have to try and find fresh evidence. Using the Diary’s, even if suspect, give a totally different account than YDG.
So which is right.

ivor

Baconwallah

01-08-2012, 23:45

Dont' use the WD, Ivor, it's full of errors.

Capt Clough-Taylor is stated to have been killed during the withdrawal of HQ Coy to Haverskerque. He wasn't. He crossed the bridge with Col Harrison - his own statement, written in captivity, was used for the YDG article.

Dr Lundie is stated to have been missing after a direct hit on Bn HQ at 0600. He wasn't, he was at his Aid Post in a farm along the Haverskerque road where he was captured on the 27th.

Lt Hood is stated to have been missing after the direct hit on Bn HQ at 0600. He wasn't, he was killed later that morning firing an anti-tank rifle in the cemetery.

Bn HQ was not shelled until 0800.

The entries for the 24th and 25th speak of a withdrawal. It wasn't, it was an advance.

The bridge is stated to have been blown. It wasn't, as the sappers had disappeared.

Troops of A Coy are stated to have swum the canal. They didn't. What was left of A Coy was captured in a farm where they had tried to make a last stand.

And so on.

The WD would have been kept by Lt Hood, the Adjutant. After he was killed, the WD was completed (or summarised because the real WD was missing, which seems likely) by the survivors of 1 RWF - two 2/Lts, the QM and sixty men. The 2/Lts and QM surely made a brave attempt, but none of them had any idea of what had been going on outside his immediate surroundings. The WD reflects that.

John

ivor43

02-08-2012, 00:26

John.
The problem is, we can not trust either.At least the W.D. was written by people whose memory, may have been a bit fresher than POW's writing 2/3 yrs later.
We have to find something fresh, like Jim's Cafe, which opens the possibility of a new line of enquirey or the possibility that Anthony's wounds may have been superficial, and he could have been to a degree mobile.
Is there any possibility that a place like the I.W.M. has anything or has someone already checked them.
I think i might send them an e mail,and see what we get.

ivor

Baconwallah

02-08-2012, 11:53

Form the foreword to the series of YDG articles:

"The account which follows has been compiled from the personal recollections of the surviving officers
of the Battalion who were taken prisoners of war. It was taken down at an early date, in the form of rough
notes which had to be concealed from the prison camp authorities. After a lapse of about three years,
when conditions in the camps became easier, it was transcribed into its present form and was
subsequently typed out on return to England.

Being based on the personal recollections of a limited number of officers it is inevitable that a certain
amount of the story has not been recorded. Three of the surviving officers were platoon commanders who
cannot be expected to know much about what went on outside of their own relatively small orbit. Both
the officers from Battalion Headquarters were sometimes away on missions at the same time and
something may have been lost to the narrative from this cause. In the final action at St-Venant, the
Battalion was widely deployed and from certain sub-units such as C Company, there was no one
available to tell the tale of the last few hours. The account is accurate, however, to the extent that
whatever has been written down has been vouched for by an officer who was present at the time."

Considerably more reliable than the WD, and the best we have.

John

teecee1941

02-08-2012, 23:28

Something which has puzzled me for a few days now;- RSM Goddard stated that he was captured 'on the morning of the 27th May'. He goes on to say that he found Anthony lying on the canal bank, near the village......and that, 'the fighting in the area had ceased'. I would guess that he was still referring to the morning because he does not say 'later that day' or 'some time later' and besides the time he was allowed to spend with his batman would have been curtailed by the guards. Had he been able to spend an unlimited amount of time with Anthony, I am sure he would have written about it.

My point is this;- I have read two or three times recently that the fighting finished around 20-30hrs. So, why did he indicate that the fighting had finished in the morning. No doubt there'll be a simple explanation, but for the moment, it's got me beaten.

Tony

Baconwallah

02-08-2012, 23:45

My point is this;- I have read two or three times recently that the fighting finished around 20-30hrs.

Brig Furlong crossed the bridge into St Venant at approx 09:15. Having spoken to Maj Owen (2 i/c 1 RWF) the Brigadier left it to Col Harrison when withdrawal should begin and the order reached him around 11:00. Since the RWF had only 30 to 40 men left, they were immediately sent back across the bridge in ones and twos. DLI HQ had already been cut off by the advancing German tanks along the tow path. Fighting must have finished well before mid day. By 16:30 the front line had moved to le Touquet, north of Haverskerque.

John

ivor43

02-08-2012, 23:53

Hi All.
John mon ami you have my greatest respect for the tenacity with which you defend YDG. Your latest post gives it impressive credentials.
However, I have serious doubts that it would be accepted as evidence. Only the original documents would be acceptable. Once a document is transcribed it can be open to challenge. You know quite well how easy it is to make slight errors when transcribing from hand written documents. The Majors Diary would have more evidential value.
This is why I believe we have to find something different.

Ivor.

Verrieres

03-08-2012, 21:33

Cwgc reply from my enquiry regarding regimental headstones to unkmown casualties

Thank you for your e-mail of 30th July 2012.<O:P></O:P>
I have checked our headstone schedules for Haverskerque British Military cemetery, Row EE and have found that there are two unknowns of the Royal Welch Fusiliers buried in Graves 14 & 15.<O:P></O:P>
I hope that this information is helpful to you.<O:P></O:P>

Yours sincerely<O:P></O:P>

<O:P></O:P>

Julie Williams (Mrs)<O:P></O:P>

Enquiries Administrator<O:P></O:P>

Best

Jim

Verrieres

04-08-2012, 13:41

I have been looking into the possibility of the existance of more war crimes files as I find it hard to believe that out of 60 (Alledged) reports only 6 were listed and only four ever investigated.Enquiries at the National Archives have revealed there are several `other` files listed.The bad news is they are only viewable at the NA in London (or you can have them copied at your expense).The files found to date are;-
search results

War Office: Judge Advocate General's Office, Reference WO 309/2220
Alleged atrocities against British soldiers at St Venant and Calonne-sur-la-Lys, France, 1940 . Alleged atrocities against British soldiers at St Venant and Calonne-sur-la-Lys, France, 1940 War Office: Judge Advocate General's Office, British Army of
Date: 1946
War Office: Directorate of Military Operations Ref WO 208/4648
St Venant, Pas de Calais, France: shooting of allied POWs . St Venant, Pas de Calais, France: shooting of allied POWs Interrogation of enemy POWs by London District Cage personnel PRISONERS OF WAR SECTION War Office: Directorate of Military Operations
Date: 1945 - 1947
War Office: Supreme Headquarters Allied Expedition Ref WO 219/5063
Vicinity of St. Venant, Pas de Calais, France in May 1940 . Vicinity of St. Venant, Pas de Calais, France in May 1940 ADJUTANT GENERAL'S RECORD BRANCH Reports of SHAEF Courts of Enquiry on shooting/atrocities of Allied prisoners of war by German Armed
Date: 1945
Judge Advocate General's Office, Military Deputy's Ref WO 311/97
St Venant, Par de Calais, France: shooting of British POWs . St Venant, Par de Calais, France: shooting of British POWs Judge Advocate General's Office, Military Deputy's Department, and War Office, Directorates of Army Legal Services and Personal Services:
Date: 1945 - 1947

Best
Jim

Baconwallah

04-08-2012, 15:04

I wouldn't be surprised if they all basically concerned the same cases.

John

ivor43

04-08-2012, 16:16

Jim.
Interesting. On the face of it the first file would look to be favourite as the others specifically refer to POW’S.
Unless, An interesting question. Would Anthony, because he was found behind enemy lines be automatically classed as a POW?
Now memory is bugging me again, I seem to recall that somewhere either you or Tony said that you had found reference to another Corkhill in POW records. But I am not sure of the initial. I vaguely think it was H, if it was, could we be looking at another possible transcription error. Anthony’s Memory loss is an added complication, but how bad was it?

Question, if a POW required treatment and medication would they have received it, and if so where would the record have been kept?

ivor

Verrieres

04-08-2012, 17:04

Jim.
Interesting. On the face of it the first file would look to be favourite as the others specifically refer to POW’S.
Unless, An interesting question. Would Anthony, because he was found behind enemy lines be automatically classed as a POW?
Now memory is bugging me again, I seem to recall that somewhere either you or Tony said that you had found reference to another Corkhill in POW records. But I am not sure of the initial. I vaguely think it was H, if it was, could we be looking at another possible transcription error. Anthony’s Memory loss is an added complication, but how bad was it?

Question, if a POW required treatment and medication would they have received it, and if so where would the record have been kept?

ivor

Hello Ivor,
There was another Corkhill but it was established this was not Anthony.You are correct with the Initial though it was a `H`.This Corkhill was also with the DLI but survived the war.This could have been the `Corkhill` that the DLI soldier wrote to the Corkhill family about (stomach wound/loss of memory) The riddle of how this soldier knew the Corkhills family address is easily explained ...he didnt..the correspondence would have been forwarded by Infantry Records Office at York.it was more than likely that it was the records office who mistook the `H`for an `A`
In relation to the treatment would summise that some record would be kept by whatever establishment treated him
Best
Jim

teecee1941

04-08-2012, 21:19

I reckon you could be absolutely right, John. I don't mind paying for the information but I'm sure that when it came, it would be the same four cases that were featured in the War Crimes file.

Tony

Verrieres

05-08-2012, 13:41

No I dont believe they do what they may encompass is other years and locations.They may include additional information but unless you can spend a couple of days reading and copying the parts relevant to your quest then the `official` cost would be prohibitive anyone requiring copied files would be better off seeking the help of a part-time researcher I`ve used them and they are usually Good value for your money.Just to point out in certain files you will find sections which are still not open to the public....WO 311/92/1 is one such Closed extract...what does it contain? In this instance nothing which will aid in Tonys search for Anthony as this deals with Chateau D'Audriew, Normandy, France: shooting of Canadian and British POWs in 1944...but I wonder if theres similar closed files for st Venant 1940?

<TBODY>
Best
Jim

</TBODY>

Baconwallah

05-08-2012, 13:55

Question, if a POW required treatment and medication would they have received it, and if so where would the record have been kept?

That's what I hope to hear from my contacts in the Volksbund and the Bundeswehr Museum.

John

ivor43

05-08-2012, 15:20

Good morning all.
Thanks for the info Jim, it would appear that we can ignore the memory loss thing, good, we have enough complications as it is.
I emailed I.W.M. on Friday, outlining the reasons for our investigation and asking if they might have any info that could assist. So like you john we will have to wait and see.

Ivor.

Verrieres

05-08-2012, 21:28

I was recommended a book titled `Retreat to Victory` by Major General Julian Thompson a couple of months ago in relation to the operations leading up to the evacuation.In this last hour or so I have reached the events of May 27th 1940 and wish to share with you the following paragraph from that book;-

A few of the RWF got back over the Lys Canal to some cottages that afforded them a modicum of cover The CO Lt Col Harrison was last over the pontoon bridge ,carrying a wounded officer.He shouted that the bridge should be blown ,but there was no one to carry out the order.a German tank approached and lurched over the bridge-which had been erected by the British .The Germans haddemolished the main bridge two days earlier after withdrawing from a foray across the canal .The pontoon bridge designed to carry a 15 CWT truck should have collapsed under the tank but unfortunately held together

If true then this poses some questions ...

What if this was a Pontoon? Then in the small sketch from the PoW that bridge is certainly not a pontoon so where exactly was that bridge??

If it were a pontoon then are both the canal banks now within reach of anyone lucky enough to cross?

Would the pontoon,if indeed it was a pontoon be erected over the destroyed structure or further along the bank?

Where would Major General Thompson find such information? Although I think I might be able to guess that one...from one of the Royal Engineers War Diaries?

It would also answer the question of why the lead tank hesitated at the Bridge...did he expect it to collapse under him? Over to you chaps.
Best

Jim

Baconwallah

05-08-2012, 22:03

There was no pontoon bridge erected by the British. There was a wooden bridge erected by the French. The good general should have checked his facts.

The German tank commander probably was more worried about getting blown up - as he should have been, and would have been had the sappers not disappeared.

John

ivor43

06-08-2012, 00:48

Jim.
Despite Johns vehement denial that there was a pontoon bridge, this confirms an account I read of a temporary bridge, somewhere.
I read in a German account that on 23rd they had mobile patrols on the north bank which had come under fire from advancing British troops, it did not mention blowing any bridges, but it may be a possibility.
I had been thinking in terms of the German’s building a bridge, but as we captured bridging material and had engineers, then it could have been built by them.
If there was this second bridge then it makes the Majors Diary more understandable.
This can not be dismissed without further investigation, but we would have to try and find the authors source material. Probably you would need to get in touch with the publishers in the first instance and see if they would know.
But the R.E Diary if it is available may be a distinct possibility, had'nt thought of that, good thinking, possible new evidence.

This could prove very interesting.

ivor

Baconwallah

06-08-2012, 10:10

The mobile patrol on the north bank (the so-called Russow patrol. also mentioned in one of my previous posts) was part of the advance by the SS Germania regiment on 24th May. This advance had crossed the Aire canal at the la Pierrière bridge and on an improvised bridge at Isbergues, constructed of inflatable rafts and planks by the 1st SS Engineer Coy (there's your cherished pontoon bridge, probably), and had then crossed the Lys on the St Venant bridge and reached Haverskerque, splitting off patrols on both banks of the Lys in the direction of St Floris and Merville. The St Floris patrol ran into 1 RWF later that day. The news of that encounter made the Germans abandon their bridgehead, with the exception of the Russow patrol which had been cut off from the main body by 2/5 West Yorks near Merville.

John

ivor43

06-08-2012, 11:32

Morning.

‘’to some cottages that afforded them a modicum of cover’’
I wonder if this was the village/hamlet of La Calone, which I don’t think is very big.

The other thing I find odd is that the bridge would only be capable of taking 15 ton’s. But if you give the sighting of the bridge some thought then it has to be to the east.
When A & C Co RWF entered St Venant on 24th they found it undefended, but when they pushed on towards the bridge that was their objective, they had not gone very far when they came under fire from German’s who were already dug in. If we remember that they were under a stop order, then that could explain why all troops had withdrawn to their position when the order was issued. So we know where the enemy is coming from, the West. So if you are going to construct a bridge you are surely going to go as far to the east, St Floris, as possible.
We will have to wait and see.

ivor

Baconwallah

06-08-2012, 11:51

Where is La Calone? Why the West?

You now seem to confuse even your good self, Ivor.

The bridges which were the objectives of A and C Coys RWF were the bridges across the Aire-la Bassée canal at l' Epinette and la Pierrière.

John

ivor43

06-08-2012, 11:54

John
My French does not get anywhere near translating this.
http://users.telenet.be/memoriaalmei1940/franseindex.htm#titre5
Is it of any interest?

ivor

Baconwallah

06-08-2012, 12:12

Not really, Ivor. The site is not yet finished and the only interesting part, the history of the fighting along the Lys in 1940, still remains unwritten. Everything else is about the Belgian army from 1830 to the present.

John

ivor43

06-08-2012, 12:46

john.
Should have read La Corbie.
Sorry, senior moment. does'nt happen very often.

ivor

Baconwallah

06-08-2012, 13:08

Le Corbie, thought so.

Regrettably all sources indicate that the cluster of cottages was located at the beginning of the Haverskerque road, about 250 yards from the St Venant bridge and lock. See my 1917 map, square J34.

John

ivor43

06-08-2012, 18:09

John.
This book Jim is reading could prove a lead to something else which is relevant to what we are doing, hopefully.
But, you know, YDG and this book are just that books. The problem being that original documentation, whether it be a POW scribbling notes on any thing he can find or a war diary written by the Co Adj at HQ, they are not suitable for publication as they are. They have to be tidied up. This is where the errors occur and you know how easy that is.
The other problem is that there is a lot of circumstantial evidence that a second crossing might exist and Jim’s book adds to that evidence, so, there comes a point when it has to be believed or disproved. I think we are close to that point. I am working on it.

Ivor.

Baconwallah

06-08-2012, 19:14

Ivor, what you really want are surveillance camera tapes.

In my opinion there is no evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, for a second crossing. Reputable historians (Faivre, Sebag-Montefiore, Kemp and Graves to name but a few) found no trace of one. All you have is 'yes but' and 'what if'.

John

Verrieres

06-08-2012, 22:00

If there was no Pontoon then the author is not only guilty of not checking his sources but adding to the re-writing of history (albeit a small piece but re-written all the same).I think what Ivor wrote early in this thread is now becoming more relevant `As I saw it` the truth but from a different angle or perspective.CSM McLane,Capt Townsend,2Lt Michael Farr,Pte Luke Bowden,Pte Tom Rodgers,RSM Goddard all accounts from those who were there each fighting their little own battles for survival each story a true account as seen by them at the time.Everyone true but unfortunately for Tony not the slightest bit of help in finding Anthony Corkhill what we need is an account of what happened at the HQ in those fateful final hours does this account exist? I do not know but we continue to search.
Historians and authors base their accounts on what others who were either there or took part in the planing of such operations tell them for they are the story tellers.Each new author relies heavily on what has gone before ,read the credits of the more recent accounts and we find credits to earlier works and previous authors ,who in turn have credits to even earlier works...re-telling of the events in their words.As an example I know Tony has written to Sebag-Montefiore author of dunkirk Fight to the last man but it was only tonight that I noticed that the author acknowledges the work of M.Faivre in St Venant to Robeqc ! As a main source.If we rely on any published work we may have to do a bit of detective work back through these publications in search of original sources and not take everything(as I often do!!!) as gospel because of an authors reputation.
Ivor your temp bridge..it may be ,as John suggests one of the Temp structures thrown up by the Germans then quickly destroyed/dismantled in their panic at encountering British forces....or maybe you refer to this.I will quote directly from St Venant-Robeqc;-

The Bridge on the Lys Canal
Having arrived in St Venant on 15th November 1939 the 6th Heavy Bridge Company was tasked with building a bridge over the two arms of the canal level with the locks.It took until 21st December for the first equipment to reach the company.Construction work commenced on 6th January 1940.The method of assembly was identical to that used in building the Epinette bridge except that this bridge was made from wood not metal.
From the very beginning work was hampered by the icy conditions.They were unable to drive the piles into the ground correctly and so they had to use a crane bearing pontoon which belonged to a local business and was at a site in Arques.In the event all the canals were frozen and the apparatus could not be transported to St Venant.
Two sections from the 16th Heavy Bridge Company stationed at Merville arrived in St Venant on 20th January.Their mission was to build a small temporary construction comprising a channel with variable levels and with a six metre opening onto the locks and a small drawbridge 14.85 metres wide over the River Lys.This would allow convoys to move more easily whilst waiting for work to recommence at the main site.Work started on 21st January and was completed by 6th February.
The main bridge was of course eventually completed and on the 6th April was handed over to the General Officer Commanding the 7th Army.....but what became of this temporary structure? Is this the Temporary Bridge Ivor you have been trying to recall?

Best
Jim

ivor43

07-08-2012, 00:18

Hi again.
Jim, Thank you for finding confidence in my ‘’Truth As I see it’’. Once you realise this it puts things in a different light. The other important point you have found, is the way authors use other published work as source material giving credit to the other author. I found a glaring example of this in a quote I gave from Major Ellis in relation to the war in France and Flanders 1939-1940 about the History of St Venant, This is IDENTICAL, to the account in YDG.
There is another problem, when researching you need to access original documents, we can not do this because M Faivre has cornered the market in info re St Venant area and we can not get anything without going through him. So if he decides he can find nothing and pulls out we can do nothing. As he already has done. As it is no longer in the public domain we are totally dependant on his mood. This is not really acceptable.
Maybe now you can understand why I am so insistent that we find as much original work as possible. We have to use published work as a basis for further search, finding their source material. If we can. We can only keep digging.
Now with regard to this temporary bridge, I don’t think it is my bridge, From the account I got the impression that they came across the bridge when they were approaching the area from the east. I will have to see if I can find it again.

Ivor

teecee1941

07-08-2012, 18:45

Ivor, in my humble opinion, you've hit the nail on the head when you say Mr Faivre has 'cornered the market' in the Saint Venant area. It looks like Saint Venant is his property.

Tony

ivor43

08-08-2012, 02:07

John.
I am sorry but I do Not want surveillance tapes. I want something much more difficult the truth.
The deeper we go with this it seems the less we actually know. I have found the On line work by Major Ellis quotes extensively from YDG. Tony finds a response from another researcher quoting from M Faivre. So how many other works are interlinked.
The book Jim has seems to be quoting from a different, as yet unknown source, so it can not be dismissed without investigating. As I said some time ago, if we find something that doesn’t fit with accepted accounts, well, so be it.

ivor

Verrieres

08-08-2012, 10:38

John.
I am sorry but I do Not want surveillance tapes. I want something much more difficult the truth.
The deeper we go with this it seems the less we actually know. I have found the On line work by Major Ellis quotes extensively from YDG. Tony finds a response from another researcher quoting from M Faivre. So how many other works are interlinked.
The book Jim has seems to be quoting from a different, as yet unknown source, so it can not be dismissed without investigating. As I said some time ago, if we find something that doesn’t fit with accepted accounts, well, so be it.

ivor

Hello Ivor,
The book I quoted from is ,as I posted,St Venant-Robeqc by M.Faivre there is a more up todate version retitled Les combats de St Venant 22 - 27 mai 1940 but I do not have that one.To be fair to M.Faivre he is very much in demand and not knowing him personally,nor having any direct contact with him I will not be commenting on his participation in this matter.

Best
Jim

Baconwallah

08-08-2012, 11:35

Ivor, mon ami, I am glad that you are discovering the joys of historical research for yourself. Not that easy, and I wish you good hunting.

In your search for the truth as yet undiscovered by your predecessors, I can offer the following quotes from the testimony of Hauptsturmführer Herbert Christiansen, SS Germania, who described his journey from the Aire-la Bassée canal to Haverskerque. The translation is not mine.

"North of St VENANT, in the neighbourhood of the auxiliary bridge however, several shot down enemy tanks and armoured vehicles stood about, which had been shot down during a counter-attack to prevent the establishment of the German bridge-head."

"On the return journey I stopped at the auxiliary bridge north of St VENANT owing to the formations which did not belong to the Regt coming towards us from the opposite direction."

Other approaches:

Are there any survivors of the action still alive in Wales? In Newcastle and Durham? If so, go and talk to them. It would also be interesting to go and talk to M Faivre in person [I may do that myself in the autumn].

If you confine yourself to searching for documents on the internet, you will be disappointed. And besides, not everything you see on the internet is necessarily true.

I shall follow your revelations with interest but do not think that there is anything to be gained by attempting to [re]write the history of the fighting around St Venant myself - others have done that already, and done it well. I shall now concentrate my research on the 1st Bn in 1914-1918 again.

John

Swiper

08-08-2012, 16:21

I
Historians and authors base their accounts on what others who were either there or took part in the planing of such operations tell them for they are the story tellers.Each new author relies heavily on what has gone before ,read the credits of the more recent accounts and we find credits to earlier works and previous authors ,who in turn have credits to even earlier works...re-telling of the events in their words.

Well put Jim, its 'historical piggybacking' if someone pulls out all their personal sources on this and starts totally from scratch then we may be actually able to learn something new...

Aled Roberts

09-08-2012, 21:28

Ivor, what you really want are surveillance camera tapes.

Funny you should say that John. I have been following this thread with great interest, but unfortunately can't add anything as it is outside of my normal stomping ground research wise.

When I read this I wondered if there may be some aerial photographs taken around these dates by the RAF of the area that may help things along? Hendon might be a good start? I will ask around some of my RAF type chums.

Richard

ivor43

09-08-2012, 21:56

Evening All

John. Let me start off by saying that I am Surprised, somewhat bemused and, not to put too fine a point on it, damn well gutted, at your withdrawing from this. You have always been the lead on this as you have the contacts, that the rest of us don’t. I will come back to this later.
Your point about surviving veterans of this action is interesting. But i would not be prepared to interview any 90ish year olds with regard to something which may have painful memories for them.

Now, with regard to your S.S. Officer. Intriguing.
Auxiliary. Additional. Supplementary. Reserve.

with Synonyms – Backup. Ancillary, Secondary. Hmmmm.
O.K. can this testimony be believed?
So somewhere to the north of St Venant we have an additional/backup bridge. Fascinating, but ,if my map reading skills haven’t faded with age, I believe that St Venant is probably at the most southerly point of the Lys, which, from there flows north east. Very helpful. Grrrrrr.
The second quote is quite interesting. Who were these troops ’’not of his regiment’’
It would appear that our S.S. Officer may have seen the advanced elements of a unit from Army Group Fourth. Which was advancing from the south? This is probably why he didn’t recognize them. I won’t be able to check this out for some time. So I don’t know if this was the unit that attacked Merville. Possibly.
Now if this testimony, and it’s translation, can be believed this is the first Direct, reliable, (eye Witness) evidence we have of a second bridge.
John. What is your opinion of the translation?
To return to my first point.
I have already expressed my feelings on your pulling out.
But since I was advised to be careful about what I said in an earlier post. I have, with my insistence on obtaining the answer to a particular question, sensed that my position is causing disquiet amongst some people.
Let me be Perfectly clear on this.
In my last fulltime job, Admin Support with the Hercules IPT at RAF Wyton. I was cleared to handle Confidential and Secret Documents. And as you may know you Do Not sign a release from the Official Secrets Act. So you can be assured that I am fully conversant with the requirements of dealing with sensitive material.
Let me stress this. I will not put any info on here which could be classed as controversial, upsetting to anyone or of a personal nature without some Permission.

ivor

Baconwallah

09-08-2012, 22:17

Ivor, mon ami, I am not entirely withdrawing from this thread. I shall share what I get from my German contacts, of course, assuming that I get anything useful, and shall continue the search for Anthony Corkhill. I just do not think that there is anything to be gained by my rewriting the history of 1 RWF at St Venant. As I said, it has been done before and done well, in my opinion.

Causing disquiet? Not with me. No worries, mate.

The SS officer's testimony is from the St Venant War Crimes reports, 1946. The auxiliary bridge is without a doubt the French wooden bridge built in Jan-Feb 1940 across the Lys 200 yards N of St Venant. The troops "not of his regiment" were most likely supply columns belonging to 3 Pz Div and on the way to Haverskerque. As the statement was made in 1945-1946, it is no more reliable - possibly less - than the eyewitness statements written by the RWF officers in the prison camp. As for the translation, it is correct but slightly quaint - "shot down tanks" is a literal translation of the German "abgeschossen" which sounds a bit funny to me. I can get you the original German text if you want.

John

ivor43

10-08-2012, 00:15

John.
I am glad you are still with us.
I am quite happy with the idea of shot down tanks. sounds reassuringly foreign. But I was puzzled with the translation as Auxiliary. I can understand it’s use in relation to.- forces – nurses – power units - but it certainly seems odd in relation to a bridge. Especially a bridge which was the main highway north from the village. Oh incidentally my German is non existent.
I wonder would this Officers testimony be given under oath. If it was then it would, rightly or wrongly, carry more weight than ordinary evidence.
I found 2 maps which I think may be of interest. They are in Members gallery – vori101. I could not get them to insert in this post.

ivor

Baconwallah

10-08-2012, 00:37

Ivor, the statement was under oath and dated 12 July 1946.

The German text says "Behilfsbrücke" which the unknown interpreter translated as "auxiliary bridge". Call it auxiliary, call it temporary, whatever, it was the French wooden bridge that was inserted into the main road north through St Venant early in 1940 because the old bridges of the Route Nationale could not cope with the expected heavy wartime traffic.

I should add that the SS officer, who commanded part of the Germania rear echelon [the Technische Fahrzeug Kompanie], used the sentences quoted in his description of his trip on 28th May from rear HQ at Busnes to the front north of the Fôret de Nieppe and back, by way of St Venant and Haverskerque. His job was to recover disabled German vehicles and get them back for repairs.

I can't find your maps in the Gallery, only four shots from Malta. Somehow I always get lost in the Gallery.

John

ap1

10-08-2012, 06:19

But since I was advised to be careful about what I said in an earlier post. I have, with my insistence on obtaining the answer to a particular question, sensed that my position is causing disquiet amongst some people. Let me be Perfectly clear on this. In my last fulltime job, Admin Support with the Hercules IPT at RAF Wyton. I was cleared to handle Confidential and Secret Documents. And as you may know you Do Not sign a release from the Official Secrets Act. So you can be assured that I am fully conversant with the requirements of dealing with sensitive material.
Let me stress this. I will not put any info on here which could be classed as controversial, upsetting to anyone or of a personal nature without some Permission.

ivor

Hi Ivor, just for clarity. The only person who has expressed disquiet was me! This was in relation Lt Col Harrison. The point about the forum is its a public place and you and the other guys are researching in the public gaze, comments or views that you perhaps express in private in a dusty office over a coffee, well, thats a different environment to this area, especially if what you say or uncover has potential impact on surviving relatives. That was all that I was expressing and reminding you about. The thread is interesting, I hope you get to the end of the story. And for background, as well as my Royal Welch service, i'm also a former police officer used to handling sensitive information!

ivor43

10-08-2012, 10:09

28672868
John
these were the maps i mentioned. finally figured how to load them.
not easy

ivor

Baconwallah

10-08-2012, 13:10

Try this one, Ivor. From the YDG article, 1954.

John

2869

ivor43

11-08-2012, 08:29

Good Morning.

I think it is going to be another hot one out here on the West Wales Riviera. But while it is still quiet I have been thinking, about alternative sources of info.
We know of the 2 main units, RWF and 2DLI, there is a possibility of info from R.E. but I was wondering if there is any possibility of another source. As I have said before my father was RCS and I know that he was one of 27 signallers attached to a RA unit.
Would RWF and 2DLI. or Btn Hq, have similar groups attached, and if so, would they have kept their own records. Or would they just have been included in unit records.

ivor

Verrieres

11-08-2012, 09:48

Good Morning.

I think it is going to be another hot one out here on the West Wales Riviera. But while it is still quiet I have been thinking, about alternative sources of info.
We know of the 2 main units, RWF and 2DLI, there is a possibility of info from R.E. but I was wondering if there is any possibility of another source. As I have said before my father was RCS and I know that he was one of 27 signallers attached to a RA unit.
Would RWF and 2DLI. or Btn Hq, have similar groups attached, and if so, would they have kept their own records. Or would they just have been included in unit records.

ivor
Morning Ivor,
Signals I believe were attached to the battalions at this stage so I think their records would have been incorporated into the parent groups diary.Thats not a bad suggestion though because ,apart from "DLI,RWF and R.Berks ` there would have been other units present each having their own Diaries(If they survived!)
Just to clarify a point on Diaries on the whole they were quite comprehensive,casualty lists,signal,Officers,Detached personnel,those evacuated beyond the RAP,Awards for Bravery etc etc unfortunately at this time confusion reigned and if the diaries were ever completed to such a standard they were either lost or captured (If captured where would they be?) but in the most case scenario they were never done,I have a copy of the original `Diary` scribbled on a single sheet.
On another totally different note I came across a set of photographs last night from 2003-2009 showing St Venant bridges canals etc I know these are in the main modern replacements but does anyone know if any of the bridges photographed portray an area where `our bridge` would have been. The link to the collection is;-
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cpasaintvenant/page2/

Best

Jim

Baconwallah

11-08-2012, 11:02

War Diaries: any signallers or engineers attd to 1 RWF or 2 DLI would never have been more than a few men, so no WDs.

The photo of the "bridge" with a house in the centre shows the St Venant lock in the southern arm of the Lys canal as seen from the cemetery side. The house is the lock keeper's cottage. The wooden bridge would have been a few yards beyond the lock.

John

teecee1941

11-08-2012, 23:30

War Diaries: any signallers or engineers attd to 1 RWF or 2 DLI would never have been more than a few men, so no WDs.

The photo of the "bridge" with a house in the centre shows the St Venant lock in the southern arm of the Lys canal as seen from the cemetery side. The house is the lock keeper's cottage. The wooden bridge would have been a few yards beyond the lock.

John

For a while now, I've had a picture of the bridge and its surroundings in my head. The lock keepers cottage was about where the Taverne farm was that was being used as HQ. The bridge was very near, just yards away. The image in my mind was supported by Bob Lake's painting which showed a reasonable panoramic view of the area. The last day or two, doubts have crept into my mind and I would be pleased if anyone can put me back on an even keel. These are my doubts;-

I have read several accounts of the action on the bridge including Major Metcalfe's diary. I do not remember reading anything about the lock. I have travelled a few times on Narrowboats on the British canals and I am aware of the importance of the lock system. The lock itself is an imposing structure and, as we know, separates the two levels of water. I think it is strange why the lock does not seem to be mentioned. The lock keepers cottage seems to be mentioned now and again but not the actual lock. I would have thought that the resourceful RWF or DLI would have made some sort of use of the lock when the going was getting unbearably tough.

I'm sure someone will explain

Tony

Baconwallah

12-08-2012, 00:17

Tony, the lock keeper's cottage was not quite where the Taverne farm was, the actual distance as the crow flies is about 450 metres. See the photo below. The bridge would have been to the left of the lock, cutting off the bend in the road on both sides.

2870

The lock was an obstacle, and tampering with it might have made it even more so. Remember that RWF and DLI were on the wrong side of the canal. Only the bridges were important. There was an old drawbridge, probably over the western lock gates or thereabouts, and the one built by the French engineers. Both lock gates would also have had a walkway, one metre wide at best and therefore barely passable.

The lock keeper's cottage was a landmark and gets the occasional mention. The lock could not be seen from a slit trench, so it doesn't.

To get an idea of the situation, use Google Street View and walk around the area.

John

teecee1941

12-08-2012, 18:52

Thanks, John, I was getting the lock keepers cottage and Taverne farm confused as well as picturing the whole scene upside down. I've got my thinking head back on now!

Tony

Verrieres

13-08-2012, 23:56

This may or not be relevant but I have read some of the Questionaires filled in by returning Prisoners of war and held at the National archives.One in particular refers to a 2nd DLI Private (Adamson)who was captured at St venant on the 27th May 1940 he states at the time of capture he was wounded,interrogated as to his Regiment and Division then treated for his wounds at Hospitale De,St Pol,France(Four week stay).The able bodied prisoners who were taken were marched off in the direction of Cambrai (RSM Goddards notes).
At the bottom of these questionaires is a request for information regarding War Crimes or violations of the Geneva convention.Anyone wishing to report these matters is asked to complete a seperate statement on a `Form Q`

Best

Jim

Baconwallah

14-08-2012, 00:09

Interesting, Jim. St Pol and Merville both had a German field hospital and are places where we should look for Anthony. I'm hoping the Volksbund may have relevant records.

John

ivor43

14-08-2012, 18:37

Good Afternoon
You know guy’s just when you think it’s safe to relax and await some replies, along comes an S.S. Officer, who collects broken down vehicles, and starts chucking spanners around, in the shape of Shot Down Tanks.
One got me somewhere between the eye’s, and has cost me some sleep.
Now, would you please correct me if i am wrong, but I was under the impression that RWF and 2DLI were infantry units, and I was not aware that they had tanks. it seems they had a couple of Bren gun carriers, which were leading when they were approaching St Floris on 23rd and got taken out. But surely if they had tanks they would have been leading?
Like Tony it would appear that my thinking head had gone into stand by mode.
Something you said John didn’t register until our S.S Officer said that this was a Counter Attack to try and stop the German bridgehead around Robecq. I had read that a gap had appeared in the defensive line and I had assumed that RWF and 2DLI were going in to fill the gap.

I think we may have been taking a very short-sighted view of this situation. we seem to be only looking at it from the 23rd and not what went on before.
What units were in this gap, and what happened to them, there is an odd reference to a M/G unit of 1st Manchester’s, where did they come from. Were there still small fragments of the previous defenders still operating in the area. And did any of the previous defending units have tanks?
But all this raises another interesting point. We know that the St Venant area was within range of the German Arty on 25th or 26th when the HQ Co tried to withdraw to the north. But for how long previously had it been within range.
When we take into account the reference to a pontoon bridge in ‘’Escape to Victory’’ it makes a degree of sense. If your main escape route is liable to be taken out at any time then you need to consider your options. You would need to have an escape route outside the range of the arty. So the bridging stuff that was captured in St Floris? Could it have been British equipment recaptured by the RWF ?
How long had the British units been holding in this area before the German incursion? And what was their escape strategy, bearing in mind they were going to be pushed eastwards?
I think it might be useful to examine the situation before the RWF/2DLI arrived, and our shot down tanks, what type would they have been. Would they have weighed 15 tons, or less.
In the Majors Diary he states he saw RSM Goddard Directing traffic over the bridge. What traffic was this, was it all RWF/2DLI or were there elements of other units? I seem to recall that RWF/2DLI vehicles were sent north not long after they arrived and he says nothing about arty fire (because it was out of range).
What about the Diary’s of the other units, that were in place before the German attack?

It might also explain the disappearing engineers. If they had been attached to one of the original defense units, then if the remnant of their unit had retreated over the bridge would they not have gone with them?

While it may not seem to be too relevant to our quest I think it might be quite beneficial to know exactly what the situation was, that RWF/2DLI were getting into. As all we have are the two Regimental accounts which by their nature are bound to be restrictive.

ivor

Baconwallah

14-08-2012, 20:39

A quick summary for your benefit, Ivor. I'm not going to rewrite the official history.

The SS officer mentioned "gepanzerte Fahrzeuge" which the unknown translator carelessly rendered as "tanks" - no doubt they were the two Bren carriers used in a last attempt to keep the Germans from establishing a bridgehead across the Lys (not Robecq, mind you, I never said that). Further up the road there was another carrier and a burning ammunition lorry belonging to the Manchesters.

Before the 22nd there had been French and British 2nd line units in and around St Venant, changing continuously. On the 22nd French troops began to form a defensive line around Bethune and along the Canal d´Aire from la Bassee to Aire, they were a mixed bag of a few infantry companies (including B Coy 2/5 West Yorks), some pioneers and two tank companies. South of St Venant this amounted to four tank platoons and four infantry platoons for four bridges. These were brushed aside by the Germans on the 24th and the survivors withdrew to Calonne-sur-la-Lys. Most of their tanks (the light Hotchkiss type) had been destroyed.

The 6th Bde (RWF, DLI, Berks) was sent to St Venant on the 24th in an attempt to re-establish the line along the Aire canal to protect the western side of the corridor to Dunkirk. Orders in similar situations (the Glosters at Cassel, for example) were simply to hold to the last man. Escape plans there were none. The Lys canal was the fall-back position. There was a modicum of support provided by Corps tps, the MG bn of the Manchesters, but this support amounted to nothing more than a few MG teams. If any of them escaped, their report would still not have made it into the WD.

The only artillery support in the area, once the French had pulled back, was 99th Field Regt (Bucks Yeo) at le Touquet.

John

Verrieres

17-08-2012, 22:22

I have tried over the past few days to try and source some eye witness accounts,no mean feat considering the years since the incident,however I may have found an account of someone who was evacuated to the HQ Barn and witnessed the events leading up to the capitulation there is of course the inevitable downside which I will come to later .In the Imperial War Museum is an oral testimony of Pte James Wray of the 2nd DLI,quite extensive but from the summary this part/summary may be of interest to our search;-

....defensive positions at St Venant; Germans disguised as women; chickens shot and meal made; fire from German occupied copse and air activity; sniping activities of Lieutenant Peel; anti-tank gun brought up; advance of German troops; start of engagement; capture of maps; casualties; report sent back to Captain Cousins. becoming platoon commander; discussion of troop's performance in battle; proximity and nature of firing on Germans; reactions to fighting; creation of defences; opinion of Bren gun in action; weapons used by Germans and nature of attacks; treatment given to German soldier shot in knee; activities between attacks; wounding from mortar shrapnel; evacuation and treatment from Private Hurst; platoon casualties after wounding; state of Private Fisher; evacuation to Headquarters; action while resting in barn at Headquarters; orders to get away if could; crossing of canal. Aspects of hospitalisation treatment at Regimental Aid Post; journey to Dunkirk and opinion of battalion's chances; events in abandoned school; evacuation from school;

Pte James Wray,somehow,although wounded made it back from the HQ to England but once his wounds were healed he left the Regiment and served with the Gold Coast Regiment.He was interviewed by Peter Hart for The Imperial War Museum Catalogue number 12661.Now the downside the oral collections have been withdrawn and are not readily accesible online .The IWM site reads;-

Access to Audio Recordings on Collections Search...Unfortunately we have to temporarily withhold online access to audio recordings so that some issues can be resolved. We anticipate being able to progressively restore access to the majority of digitised material.If you have an urgent need to gain access to this recording, please contact us.
I think everyone will agree that once reinstated this may prove very interesting.Also in this collection are more reports regarding the actions around St Venant including Sgt McLanes however this is the only account from HQ`s position.
Best
Jim

ivor43

18-08-2012, 22:06

hi all.
I may have been quiet for a couple of days,i have been reading Major Ellis's account, which i find was written in 1954.john, i found the answer as to which unit was in the gap. it was a French unit. quoting from major Ellis.

'' Macforce, covered by the 1st Light Armoured Reconnaissance Brigade, arrived in teh area during the morning and formed a close perimeter defence of Cassel, while 137th Brigade headquarters took up positions between Hazebrouck and Morbecque.[11] In the Polforce sector between Thiennes and Robecq a French unit which had been holding the canal was withdrawn, leaving a gap in the defence which there were no troops to fill. Here elements of a German motorised division—the S.S. Verfügungs (or general service) Division—had crossed unopposed and had advanced to St Venant and the 2nd/5th West Yorkshire on the canal from Robecq to Hinges had moved companies back to Calonne and St Floris, to hold the flank of this enemy salient.''

This is the sort of info i was after, we now have another unit in the area at the relevant time, what have their diaries to say.
But another quote is also fascinating.

''For the most part the enemy remained comparatively quiet during the 25th on this front. German tanks in the neighbourhood of Aire penetrated at one time to within a few miles of Merville, but these were knocked out by artillery fire, and when the 2nd Division arrived, the 6th Brigade established our positions between Tannay and Robecq, turning the enemy out of St Venant and rebuilding the brigade there which had been destroyed.[29] Small bodies of German infantry managed to cross the canal on either side of Béthune, but there was no serious attack and by nightfall the defence of this front was considerably stronger. ''

Here we have another interesting piece of English.
''Rebuilding the Brigade there which had been destroyed ''
puzzle,, should this read Bridge? How, a pontoon bridge or an Auxiliary bridge.
But another point here. the 2nd Division was made up of 4th, 5th and 6th brigades together with a number of RA and RE units. do we have any info re the positions of the RE/RA?

I have also found another interesting piece of info in the following. the article is not directly concerned with our area but makes interesting reading.

http://home.scarlet.be/vdmeiren/The%20Campaign%20of%20the%20Belgian%20army%20in%20 May%201940.html

but i am going to quote one passage from it.

''The frontline was 110 km long, each division had to defend 10 km on the Lys river and 6km on the derivation canal. The new defense line was therefore too long and had several disadvantages First there was a shortage of equipment (few barbed wire, mines, telephone wires etc.). Secondly there was the Lys river itself, which was very shallow, had a lot of curbs and was mostly only 50cm deep (it had been unfortunately a very dry season). The riverbank on which the Belgians were located was lower than the riverbank on which Germans were approaching. This and the spring vegetation, which couldn’t be removed on time, enabled the Germans to approach the Belgian lines without being noticed. ''

I find the reference to the depth of the river very interesting. 20 ins. not really very deep. would this be a similar depth at St Venant.

Another interesting paragraph is the following.( i think it should be Major Ellis). I like the last line,in italics.

''Mayor Ellis, author of the Official History, wrote "there were no staff meetings between the BEF and the Belgian army". This is incomplete as the Belgians did pass all the information they had to the French and BEF but the BEF refused to have discrete consultations with the Belgian army. In The Official History you will also read that the Belgians were not prepared to exchange information about their military plans. Liddlel Hart writes about this the following: " This is a clear example of the difference between " official history" and real history". ''

This is what we have to sort out.

ivor

ivor43

19-08-2012, 09:12

Mornin all.

It would seem that Major Ellis is the official historian for this phase of the war.But there are so many typo's in this, on line, version that i suspect it would be best if we could get hold of a copy of the original work.
It would also account for the reason why YDG seems to have quoted 'Verbatim' from Major Ellis with regard to the St Venant area.
Another interesting point. we are told that on 24th 2DLI were tasked with holding St Floris. did they takeover from 2nd/5th West Yorks.
There is also reference that the 'to the last man' defense of the Lys may not have been the case.

Ivor

Baconwallah

19-08-2012, 11:56

Ivor, for the troops in the gap see my post #326 which already mentions 2/5 West Yorks. This Bn was part of 46 Div, sent to France as a labour force. It was withdrawn to Calonne and subsequently defended the bridge at Merville before being replaced by 6 KORR. I can detail the French units for you, but they are irrelevant to the fate of Anthony Corkhill.

Before spreading gunners and engineers around, please remember that 2 Div was given a section of more than 20 miles to cover. Normally this would have required 4 divisions. The only support for 6 Bde was the 99th Field Regt (Bucks Yeo).

The Lys in the sector we're interested in had been canalised and was certainly deeper than 20 in to allow traffic. East of Armentières there is no shipping on the river so 20 in would be quite plausible.

John

Verrieres

19-08-2012, 17:03

I have revisited a National Archives File WO 361/41 which deals with the missing DLI men from 1940.As I have previously stated Anthonys name (mis-spelled Corthill) has a line through it with `DEAD` alongside with the Reference `Q80`.Rather than speculate as to the meaning of `Q80` I have emailed the National Archives in London with the following enquiry;-

I have recently being looking into the fate of `The Missing Men 1940` in particular The DLI (Catalogue Ref WO 361/41) Pg 605 gives a summary of the fate of these men but certain hand written references have me puzzled namely;- Q80 ,Q57 , UP-57 ,UP-47 and UP-16. Do you have any record as to what these `Q` and `UP` references refer to? It is important that I find out in particular what Reference Q80 refers to or contains.If these references are Files then they could hold the key to a 72 year search for information on a known 2 DLI casualty Pte Anthony Corkhill .Any help wor advice would be greatly appreciated.Thank You.
The `Q80` reference applies to two men only on the list;-

Pte A Corthill (Corkhill) Regimental number 4449147 no known grave Dunkirk Memorial

Pte W T Smith Regimental No 4449353 (William Thomas Smith son of George John and Ethel Smith; husband of Annie M. Smith, of Send, Surrey according to the CWGC died 15th May 1940 buried Section VII. Row B. Grave 18.Leopldsburg War Cemetery)

Of the other `Q` Reference `Q57` refers to Pte Harold Clarke Regimental number on roll 4442265 (This is a typo the correct number was 4442263) Harold died of wounds (Possibly received at St Venant on the 27th May ?)at Dunkirk and is buried in Dunkirk Town Cemetery Plot 2 Row 11 Grave 5.
4436524 Warrant Officer Class III Thomas Furby Mason (AA Platoon Hq Company) according to the `Townsend diary`died as a Prisoner of War.The CWGC lists him as dead between 10/05/1940 and 01/06/1940 buried at St Venant Cemetery Plot 4. Row C. Grave 59.

4445266 Pte James William Patton Son of John Robert and Isabella Patton; husband of Jessie Mary Patton, of Derby died of wounds
according to CWGC between 10/05/1940 and 04/06/1940 buried Leopoldsburg Cemetery Section VII. Row C. Grave 11.

The `UP` designation ,although not directly relevant to Anthony seems to refer to other 2 DLI who have either a date of death of between or known to have died of wounds (Two listed by the CWGC as 6th and 8th DLI not 2nd DLI???).
Hopefully we will find out soon what the `Q` reference definately is and if there are files associated to it.

Best

Jim

ivor43

19-08-2012, 17:18

jim.
in your thread 323 you refer to 'Q' forms any connection ?

Baconwallah

19-08-2012, 17:25

Very interesting indeed, Jim! If 'Q80' refers to a source, it must be traceable!

John

Verrieres

19-08-2012, 17:47

jim.
in your thread 323 you refer to 'Q' forms any connection ?

Hello Ivor,
Yes at the bottom of the questionaires for returning PoWs there is a section which asks if anyone has any knowledge of War Crimes if so they should complete Form `Q` I have always assumed that this `Q` reference was one and the same but I have now learnt not to `assume` anything hence my enquiry to the Archives.

Very interesting indeed, Jim! If 'Q80' refers to a source, it must be traceable!

John

Yes John my thoughts exactly ..they are sure of Anthonys fate..will Q80 reveal why they are so sure?

Best
Jim

Baconwallah

19-08-2012, 19:15

A reference to Forms 'Q':

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=3&CATID=13403&j=1

Doesn't sound very hopeful.

John

Verrieres

19-08-2012, 20:18

A reference to Forms 'Q':

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=3&CATID=13403&j=1

Doesn't sound very hopeful.

John

Hello John,
No it doesnt bode well if `Q80` does refer to a War Crime report but it will, if it is confirmed as such, give us a clear path to follow..that of a murder rather than a died of wounds? I will await there confirmation or otherwise ...these `Q` references must relate to something we can gain some sort of guidance from? I am busy going through the battalion casualty lists for that period to see if we can gain any leads...so many with no known graves..either `known to god` or else theres still a mass grave out there somewhere?

Oh while I remember one of those DLI who were classed as a `Missing Man` was last seen having been wounded through the leg being loaded onto a Manchester Regt truck...then nothing...no further trace..

Best

Jim

Baconwallah

19-08-2012, 20:22

I have just sent an email to the head of the War Crimes Research and Documentation Centre of the University of Marburg, Germany, setting out the facts as we know them. Fingers crossed.

John

Baconwallah

19-08-2012, 20:27

Oh while I remember one of those DLI who were classed as a `Missing Man` was last seen having been wounded through the leg being loaded onto a Manchester Regt truck...then nothing...no further trace..

If that was the burning ammunition lorry belonging to the Manchesters which was standing along the road to Haverskerque, which it may well have been, I don't think he survived long enough to be taken to a field hospital.

John

ivor43

19-08-2012, 22:37

hi
i have been browsing back threads in research and found this from Oct 2010. it was started on 10,10, by Swiper and is entitled '' Two unknown RWF Soldiers - not quite.'' the quote below is from a post by ap1

''This is how GWGC describes the churchyard. "St. Floris is a village and commune 40 kilometres north-north- west of Arras and 10 kilometres north-north-west of Bethune. In the churchyard, east of the church and near the local war memorial, are the graves of 7 soldiers from the United Kingdom, 3 of them, whose graves could not be precisely located, are commemorated by special memorials, i.e., inscribed "Buried near this spot".''

interesting

ivor

Baconwallah

20-08-2012, 10:30

That description would fit a lot of cemeteries across northern France and Belgium, from both world wars. What exactly is your point, Ivor?

Seven men of 1 RWF were killed at St Floris on the 23rd. There are seven graves, three of which are marked "Buried near this spot". The only mystery is why one of the seven would be in the CWGC records as having been killed on the 26th.

John

ivor43

20-08-2012, 11:07

John.

the thread refers to two unknown RWF Soldiers. not three. so that would leave one 'unknown' unknown. so i was just wondering if these '' buried near this spot '' markers would have unit badges on them. and until we get a more definite location for Anthony then St Floris is just as likely a location as St Venant for his burial.

ivor

Baconwallah

20-08-2012, 11:29

Ivor, the CWGC lists seven graves at St Floris, all seven named members of the RWF. That's all. Have a look at the CWGC site if you want to verify this.

John

Verrieres

29-08-2012, 22:34

Just back this evening and found this rather uninspiring answer to my enquiry regarding the `Q` reference

Thank you for your email.<O:P></O:P>
<O:P> </O:P>
I am afraid that the references in question are not listed within our records. The code letters/numbers were not recognised by any of our military specialists. <O:P></O:P>
<O:P> </O:P>
Sorry for the disappointing reply. <O:P></O:P>
<O:P> </O:P>
Yours sincerely<O:P></O:P>
<O:P> </O:P>
Clive Hawkins<O:P></O:P>
<O:P> </O:P>
Remote Enquiries Duty Officer<O:P></O:P>
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk (http://rwf-forum.co.uk/cp/ps/Mail/ExternalURLProxy?d=tiscali.co.uk&u=whoproudlyserved&url=http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk&urlHash=-1.6495654075676966E35) <O:P></O:P>
<O:P> </O:P>

Well they are in their records because thats where I found them! Or do they mean the explaination/meaning is not recorded? I`ll consult someone else in due course.

Jim

Baconwallah

30-08-2012, 01:33

Well, they could at least have referred you to their own explanatory web page (see my post 335 below). My link is broken, though - search for Series Reference WO 344.

It seems Forms 'Q' did indeed refer to witnessed war crimes. They would be kept with the relevant war crimes inquiry, not archived together in a separate 'Q' file. The question is, of course, with which war crimes file the form numbered Q80 can be found. It would be helpful if there was some sort of index, but that will be too much to hope for.

I find the knowledge of the NA military specialists to be somewhat less than I would have expected.

John

Verrieres

31-08-2012, 14:48

Hello ,
In regard to the IWM Oral Testimony of Pte James Wray which I posted a couple of weeks ago I have submitted an enquiry for access to reels 17 and 18 failing that a transcript of these Reels.Hopefully I will receive a reply very soon as to the feasibility of such a request.Will keep you all posted.
In regards to the `Q` reference I have contacted a Prisoner of War Expert who has had major dealings with the National Archives and their seeming reluctance to investigate the content of their own files.I`m not publishing their name as they have yet to respond and may prefer to remain annonomous again we will just have to wait and see
Best
Jim

Baconwallah

31-08-2012, 19:34

Perhaps we should advise Tony to hire a researcher to go through the NA War Crimes files looking for Form Q 80.

John

Verrieres

03-09-2012, 15:51

I noticed today someone has taken an interest in the search for Anthony and members efforts on here.This was posted on the Sunderland Echo today 3rd Sept 2012.

....Very interesting subject but is anyone else aware of a current search for a DLI soldier `lost` on May 27th 1940? Pte Anthony Corkhill `disappeared` on this date and despite extensive investigation by the Red Cross and his family he still remains `missing`.There is considerable local interest in this with the family searching for any DLI soldier who served at St Venant in France at this time.The familys search /story can be found here;-
http://rwf-forum.co.uk/vBulletin/showthread.php?15909-saint-venant-1940-farm-boulet

I find it fascinating and best of luck lets help find Pte Corkhill he`s been away too long!

All publicity is good publicity???....In this case if it brings forward a witness it certainly will be!

Best

Jim

Baconwallah

03-09-2012, 18:26

Sunderland Echo reader partickthistlenil certainly takes an interest in our efforts. Good for him/her. Let's hope someone remembers something.

John

Verrieres

04-09-2012, 23:01

Just to keep the `pot boiling` as my mother used to say heres part of the Report Sheet from an exumation at St Venant this particular example was found to be Pte Tom Rodgers of the 2nd DLI found after sterling work by his family.One curious factor came to light when the family had determined that the report did refer to Tom Rodgers the Grave into which Tom had been placed was according to the French GRAVE 154, however the Rodgers family received notification in 2002 from the MoD stating that all graves had been exhumed in 1948 for a full physical examination and according to British Records the soldier now in GRAVE 154 did not match the description given in the original French report.The Rodgers family asked the MoD `Where is the body which fits my brothers description?" and the answer came back "We do not know!"
To cut a long story short after the family had presented all their evidance the MoD conceded that Pte Rodgers had been one of the `Five innconu¬ originally buried in the Field of Paul Walle and that he was most likely near to GRAVE 154 now Row 3B but they would not accept he was in Grave 154 (Plot 21) but agreed on a stone bearing the inscription `BELIEVED TO BE BURIED IN THIS CEMETERY`.This I believe leads to the question..."Where are the British Records of 1948?"
Best
Jim

http://i488.photobucket.com/albums/rr245/Verrieres/other/2dliinnconu.jpg

Baconwallah

04-09-2012, 23:14

Good question, Jim! This is the first we have heard of a 1948 exhumation. Would the CWGC know more, I wonder?

John

Verrieres

04-09-2012, 23:54

Good question, Jim! This is the first we have heard of a 1948 exhumation. Would the CWGC know more, I wonder?

John

Hello john,
Indeed it is John it was only today when I re-read the Rodgers Book that I came across it.The records have to exist as they were used as a comparrison against those of M.Faivre.In relation to the CWGC George rodgers records ` were quite unresponsive and refusing even to give me (George Rodgers) a number to contact the Ministry of Defence" It seems,reading between the lines that these are MoD records.Something else of great interest is remembering at this time Tom Rodgers was `inconnu` yet the MoD checked his full record and found although he was an UNKNOWN his temp grave location was written on the records as situated between the War Memorial and the Town Centre (Which it wasnt as it proved) If you have a grave location then how could he have been classed as an unknown?
There is also reference to Dog-Tags the Rodgers got in touch with the German equivalent of the CWGC who were most helpful they suggested the tags may still have been held in the German MoD in Berlin.Enquiries were made with the Germans (again speedy reply) who stated all British records etc had been taken by the British in 1945 and were with...the MoD!
The Rodgers were being passed from pillar to post it seems so he contacted his local MP who managed to speed things along and although the book gives the MoD contact only as `Christopher`it does give an address of Trenchard Lines,Building 43 Upavon,Wiltshire an avenue for Tony to explore further perhaps certainly in regard to those 1948 Records??

Best

Jim

Baconwallah

05-09-2012, 00:00

A letter to Tony's own MP might help. The MoD needs a lot of prodding and probably a firecracker up the ****. And keep your fingers crossed that they have not outsourced the archives.

John

teecee1941

05-09-2012, 20:27

Hello again all,

I'm hoping that the last couple of posts (by Jim and John) might signal a breakthrough or at least a decent development. I'll certainly go along with contacting my MP or writing to the MOD. It is always disappointing to realise that whenever the word 'Ministry' is in any title, you can expect any correspondence to be ignored or at least replies to be delayed by an unbelievable length of time. Evidence of this delaying tactic became obvious again when I was told that I would not receive Anthony's Service Records for up to nine to twelve months. It costs £30 for the privilege!

However, moaning does not get us anywhere and I'd just like to say that I will await further instructions as to when to contact the MP and MOD. I never say no to any guidance regarding matters of this kind, so please feel free to point me in the right direction.

Tony

Baconwallah

05-09-2012, 21:18

Tony, are you in touch with the family of Tom Rodgers? I think they are the experts on extracting information from the MOD, with or without help of an MP. And if anyone can understand your predicament, they can. Certainly worth considering.

John

teecee1941

05-09-2012, 21:53

Tony, are you in touch with the family of Tom Rodgers? I think they are the experts on extracting information from the MOD, with or without help of an MP. And if anyone can understand your predicament, they can. Certainly worth considering.

John

John,

Strangely, I'm finding it rather difficult getting in touch with the Rodgers family. A while ago, I thought all I had to do was write to the Northern Echo, who played a part in the publicity of the 'Tom' case, but they wrote back saying that they had no contact details of the family. I have held back from a second attempt because I was contemplating sending an open email asking the readers to help. The trouble with this method is that once you publish your email address, you leave yourself open to all the possibilities of viruses and spam etc.

I'll have another go, all the same.

Tony

teecee1941

05-09-2012, 22:34

John,

Strangely, I'm finding it rather difficult getting in touch with the Rodgers family. A while ago, I thought all I had to do was write to the Northern Echo, who played a part in the publicity of the 'Tom' case, but they wrote back saying that they had no contact details of the family. I have held back from a second attempt because I was contemplating sending an open email asking the readers to help. The trouble with this method is that once you publish your email address, you leave yourself open to all the possibilities of viruses and spam etc.

I'll have another go, all the same.

Tony

teecee1941

05-09-2012, 22:37

Just to say that in the last few minutes I have contacted the Northern Echo with a request to post an appeal for the Rodgers family to get in touch with me or anyone to
provide their contact details.

Tony

Baconwallah

05-09-2012, 22:53

Perhaps Jim has a way of contacting them?

Alternatively, have yourself interviewed by the Northern Echo, tell them about your quest and ask the Rodgers family to contact you via the Echo offices, or offer a temporary email address - Mailexpire.com will provide a free email address which expires automatically in three months, or just open a hotmail account, once it has done the job you never look at that inbox again.

John

Verrieres

10-09-2012, 16:16

Perhaps Jim has a way of contacting them?

Alternatively, have yourself interviewed by the Northern Echo, tell them about your quest and ask the Rodgers family to contact you via the Echo offices, or offer a temporary email address - Mailexpire.com will provide a free email address which expires automatically in three months, or just open a hotmail account, once it has done the job you never look at that inbox again.

John

Sorry I do not have Georges contact details I have a feeling they too may have set up a `ghost` account!
I do have some much better news regarding `Q` Forms despite the negative reply from the National Archives it does transpire that these `Q` Forms(or at least three full files of them!) still exist according to my author contact they can be found at ;-
WO 311/569 (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/browser.asp?CATLN=6&CATID=34181&GPE=False&MARKER=0) Extracts from Q (Questionnaire) Forms received from repatriated British POWs from Germany 1945 Apr - Sept
WO 311/570 (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/browser.asp?CATLN=6&CATID=34182&GPE=False&MARKER=0) Extracts from Q (Questionnaire) Forms received from repatriated British POWs from Germany 1945 Sept - Dec
WO 311/571 (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/browser.asp?CATLN=6&CATID=34183&GPE=False&MARKER=0) Extracts from Q (Questionnaire) Forms received from repatriated British POWs from Germany 1945 Dec - 1947 Jan

Sure enough they are listed I cut the reference from the National Archive Site Now which one contains `Q80`
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/browser.asp?CATLN=3&CATID=13370&POSCATLN=6&POSCATID=569000&j=1

Best Wishes

Jim

Baconwallah

10-09-2012, 18:16

Good news indeed, Jim! And good work!

This calls for a researcher, unless some member of the Forum is a regular visitor to Kew with a healthy appetite for 72 year old mysteries.

John

Verrieres

13-09-2012, 21:29

Good news indeed, Jim! And good work!

This calls for a researcher, unless some member of the Forum is a regular visitor to Kew with a healthy appetite for 72 year old mysteries.

John

Good News indeed and I believe Tony is busy trying to secure relevent copies at this time.In relation to the Imperial war Museum tape relating to 2 DLI and James Wray I received another dissappointing,but not unexpected reply from the IWM this evening

Thank you for your enquiry.

At the moment I cannot estimate when the interview with James Wray (12661) will be released online and unfortunately there is no transcript available to copy for this particular interview.

However, it is possible to purchase copies of the relevant reels and I have attached the IWM Sound Order Form which you would need to complete and return in order to request copies of audio recordings. This form also contains details of charges including postage and packing. If you have any further queries regarding ordering copies of audio recordings please contact the team on 020 7416 5309 or by email at imagesales@iwm.org.uk.

Yours sincerely,

Maria Payne
Collections Access

The order form quotes prices of £20 per Reel plus £2.50 postage for the first CD and £1.00 for every subsequent CD each reel is approx 1/2 Hour in length and a CD holds two REELS.

Best

Jim

ivor43

22-09-2012, 21:32

Hi all.
i am now back in sunny Malta, temp still around 30 deg, after a cool, damp summer in west Wales and a couple of very interesting weeks in South Africa. You probably noticed that i kept popping in when i had internet access, so i am up to date with our difficulties with IWM and MOD. I think the idea of Tony getting himself interviewed by the local press a good one, as well as a letter to his MP. this just might bring out some new info and kick some A** at MOD and IWM.
John, i am not exactly sure where you are based, but might it not be an idea to involve either, your local press or the local press in the St Venant area.you seem to have a good knowledge of La Francais, certainly better than mine.It just might unlock something.

ivor

Baconwallah

22-09-2012, 22:06

John, i am not exactly sure where you are based, but might it not be an idea to involve either, your local press or the local press in the St Venant area.

Welcome back, Ivor!

From where I am it's about 250 miles to St Venant, so my local press couldn't care less. The St Venant press is a different matter, if there is such a thing. I know a journalist of the newspaper of Northern France, la Voix du Nord, and perhaps he might be interested. I'll give it a try. But there won't be many witnesses left by now.

John

ivor43

23-09-2012, 10:46

morning john.
I agree with you re witnesses, but i didn't explain the idea very well, i blame a 0400 alarm call for an 0640 flight on Friday, then a meal out with family and Several glasses of Red Wine and a late night.
What i was thinking was more in terms of family stories, of parents etc helping wounded soldiers, or childhood memories ,that sort of thing. any thing that might give us a fresh angle on what we know.
I would suspect that the local press may be based at Haverskirque.

ivor

Baconwallah

23-09-2012, 12:49

I was only teasing, Ivor...

Seriously, though, there is l'Echo de la Lys which caters to the literary needs of the towns and villages along the Lys. I'll ask my French friends for advice. I'm not holding my breath, though.

John

ivor43

25-10-2012, 20:39

hi all. been a quiet summer but i think it's time to start some ass kicking. The British Residents Assoc over here, of which we are members, have a Coffee Morning once a month. They have a speaker each time. last month was a professor speaking on Lord Nelson.quite interesting. but the speaker fo Jan is a Barrister who is a specialist in War Crimes.if i have the ok from you guys i will make contact before Jan and see if i can get hold of some useful info. i might even try to get her interested in our quest, well it could be worth a try. i can be quite charming and persuasive at times.

ivor

Baconwallah

26-10-2012, 00:53

That might be a good idea, Ivor. But your speaker is very likely more knowledgeable about modern war crimes than about the atrocities of 1940. Anyway, Tony is the one who should decide. I'll let him know.

John

ivor43

26-10-2012, 09:43

i agree on both counts,john. what i hope for is, possibly some fresh ideas , or some links that we do not know about. it's worth a try.

ivor

teecee1941

26-10-2012, 20:07

Hello again, Ivor,

Just to say that I think your War Crimes speaker is a good idea and it certainly has my blessing. I reckon that the more people get to hear of Anthony the better. Although I think John could be right and the speaker could be more conversant with modern day War Crimes, you never know, someone, somewhere, might just have that extra ounce of knowledge that points us in the right direction. Many thanks.

Tony

chow

28-10-2012, 20:13

Hello again, Ivor,

Just to say that I think your War Crimes speaker is a good idea and it certainly has my blessing. I reckon that the more people get to hear of Anthony the better. Although I think John could be right and the speaker could be more conversant with modern day War Crimes, you never know, someone, somewhere, might just have that extra ounce of knowledge that points us in the right direction. Many thanks.

Tony

Anthony.
Never give up.
like you say the answer is out there..
its just happening on the link..
good luck in your quest .

Steve..aka..chow.

Verrieres

28-10-2012, 20:30

Hello,
Just as an update for those following this story;-

After Tony had sourced a researcher to look into Q80 it looked as though we were finally moving,however,this may be a drawn out affair as the researcher is not up to speed nor does it seem he has undertaken this type of work before we need other lines of enquiry to keep `the pot boiling`I have recently ran a couple of things past Tony and John these relate to the Missing Men register and why Anthony Corkhill was known to be DEAD and not classed as a missing man worthy of an investigation by the British Army in 42-43-44-45.
At the time of Anthony Corkhills disappearance in 1940 his family would have received the dreaded `Missing presumed Killed in Action` telegram had he been taken prisoner another Telegram would have been received stating he was a `PoW` to the best of my knowledge no second telegram was ever received yet between 1940-42 the date of Anthonys death was confirmed as the 29th May 1940.For this to be taken as gospel a witness or documented evidence or both would have had to be found.
A returning Dunkirk survivor ?...possibly... but a returning survivor would not have completed a `PoW questionaire which in turn would have (if applicable) led to the filing of a Q Form as that survivor was never a PoW in the first place?
So who could have completed such a form prior to release in 1945? There are two possibilities (and I stand to be corrected) as far as I can fathom ..an escapee from captivity late 1942 early 1943 (This was period for the missing men enquiries) but something that up to now I had not considered a repatriated wounded Prisoner,repatriated in April 1942?
If a repatriated DLI PoW filed his report stating Anthony was dead and attached a Q form (if in his opinion he had witnessed a warcrime or mistreatment of Anthony) then this would have been the proof needed to record Anthonys death as 29th May 1940.It may also explain that when the Corkhill Family and the Red Cross contacted RSM Goddard (42-43)that the RSM could find no clues or witnesses to Anthonys fate as the witness was already home? Bearing in mind the severe nature of these repatriated mens wounds did the witness live to see the end of the war? No witnesses were found by Tonys dad despite his search.
Anyway ,I hope I have explained that piece well enough (or have I just confused people more)
To my main aim...Thousands and Thousands of PoW questionaires were completed any one could hold the clue we are all desperately seeking ,far too many to manually sort through.My proposal to Tony and John is I source the repatriated 2 DLI prisoners ...from those I find we will hopefully have two dozen or so Rank ,Names and Army Numbers which can be used to find not thousands but two dozen or so PoW questionaires that might,and I emphasis might,just have a little gem written upon them...what is there to lose if all else fails we have ruled out another possibility and we will move on.
I`m confident I will secure that list in the next week or so as I know just where to look!

Best Wishes

Jim

ivor43

28-10-2012, 22:16

hi Jim.
this sound like a good idea.
But.
this would generate another set of questions if we take it in connection with what we already believe.
we believe that Anthony was seen wounded on 27/may as witnessed by RSM Goddard. when being marched off to POW camp. If we believe that Anthony was the wounded man shot by the S.S. on 29th then as far as we know the only witnesses were the farmer and his friend. so something doesn't fit.
unless.
if we assume that Anthony was taken by the Germans to a field hospital,lets assume the one at Calonne, where he died on 29/may then there would certainly be witnesses.
Now i am starting to wonder about the dates. whilst we know the dates in the War Diary's may be suspect,i think we have to accept the date given by RSM as correct as i think there is ample evidence to confirm it.
But the 29th, i am having some doubts about.if the soldier shot on 29th was Not Anthony. then where was Anthony ? in hospital ?. have we got a situation whereby if War Crimes got hold of the report with 29th on it and assumed it was Anthony, then we could have a problem here. if my memory is correct it has been said that the W.C.C. did not investigate this incident.
i am having some problems with the idea of seriously wounded men being repatriated being able to remember an exact date which would appear to be 2 days after the Germans retook the area.
sorry Jim. do not let me put you off the idea, it just doesn't seem to work for me. good luck. i hope you can prove me wrong.
it would be good if we could come up with some records from the field hospitals in the area.

ivor.

Verrieres

28-10-2012, 23:02

Hello Ivor,
I`ll see if I can convince you a little more. The soldier who was killed and we have the two witnesses for was killed outside of Ferme Boulet on the Rue Bas Hamel junction at 12.30hrs 27th May 1940 if we believe the recorded times this cannot have been Anthony wrong place and wrong time the battle at the St Venant bridge ended much later if Anthony had been wounded and taken earlier in the battle to Ferme Boulet (Which was a temp British Hospital) then RSM Goddard could not have came across him at the Canal Bank.Although it would seem likely that this was not Anthony Corkhill it was reported that up to 60 British soldiers had been murdered and I very much doubt there was a file set up for each incident so we cannot rule out Anthony was not shot /murdered elsewhere.If Q80 exists someone had to complete it and while their memory was fresh.
The CWGC in the case of missing men record the deaths of these individuals as the last time they were seen alive and the date in which their bodies were recovered as Anthonys body was not recovered, then through investigation RSM Goddard was the last to see Anthony on the 27th May 1940 if the CWGC follow their own rules why is Anthony listed as dying two days later on the 29th May 1940...because (I believe) someonelse saw Anthony after RSM Goddard either alive on the 29th or killed on this day.The CWGC state their dates are supplied by the Army ..then who saw Anthony Corkhill alive on the 29th certainly RSM Goddard could find no witnesses and on his return I know from his son Ian that the RSM played a major part in ex servicemens associations a chance to talk to old comrades yet none could shed any light on Anthony Corkhill?
This is where my idea of the repatriated PoWs came from, a possible witness who filled in a questionaire at the time Anthony was declared to have died all ifs and buts I know but if its a dead end then what have we lost? Nothing but my time which I`m happy to give .The wounds these men suffered are not a handicap either for I have just published on my website a detailed eight page account from another DLI who was repatriated (1st DLI) and it is marvellously detailed.
One thing I should have added too Ivor is Tony is researching a second incident where two unknown British soldiers were shot/murdered in hospital who knows what if anything the list will bring out but I owe it to Anthony Corkhill to try.
Thanks Ivor
Best Wishes

Jim

ivor43

28-10-2012, 23:31

Jim.
you don't have to convince me, my only concern was about who may have witnessed his death.
i think, some time back i speculated that he died in hospital, when i suggested that his wounds may have been more severe than was thought. i have to admit that it never occurred to me that he may have been shot in the hospital. but with the S.S who knows.
as i said in my last post this is, really, the only place he could have been seen on 29th by another British Serviceman.
what is the location of the incident that Tony is investigating ?

ivor.

Verrieres

28-10-2012, 23:42

Hello Ivor,
You are right it can only have been a British serviceman as there is no record of Anthony by either the Swiss nor the Germans I am hoping because the Roll is so decisive that one of those repatriated is our witness fingers crossed.
The hospital incident Tony has mentioned twice but he is having difficulty relocating his file all I know is it is in the same geographical area within the relevent time frames.Sorry I do not know any details off hand
Best Wishes

Jim

ivor43

28-10-2012, 23:51

ok
thanks Jim. it's just that i think i read that there were some unknowns buried in the field at the rear of the school in Calonne which was the Hospital. we will have to wait and see.

ivor

teecee1941

29-10-2012, 16:46

Steve, many thanks for your kind words.

Tony

Baconwallah

29-10-2012, 17:04

The hospital under discussion was, if I remember correctly, Merville. Would be a likely spot, as it was in 3 Pz Div's area,

John

ivor43

29-10-2012, 22:22

thanks John. but i am not sure that Merville fits with Anthony. If i recall rightly the Germans were not in Merville on 27th so a slight problem. the only field hospital we know of operating on 27th was Calonne.
Now let me ask a question or two at least.
Does a field hospital follow behind the front line. what i am after is .. would a hospital move from Calonne to Merville ..complete with any wounded under treatment. if so then there is a possibility of Anthony being in Merville.
My second question is ... how many wounded would it accommodate. and would German wounded be sent to the rear after basic treatment whereas British troops, now POW's, might remain at the hospital ?.
Now,i am having a major problem with the idea of wounded POW's being shot in hospital, i know the S.S. were capable of anything, but i am trying very hard to figure out why they would shoot wounded men.
I can only come up with one possible,even if unlikely idea.
By the 29th the Germans had Dunkirque virtually surrounded. i wonder if this particular hospital was no longer required and was being wound up.The British POW's were to be moved to another place provided they could WALK. those that could not were shot.
total fantasy but ............

Baconwallah

29-10-2012, 23:31

Ivor, the Jerries were in Merville on the 29th, the day Anthony died officially.

Also, why should "hospital" mean a field hospital? Merville had a perfectly functional cottage hospital. There is evidence of at least one Durham there, later taken to a PoW camp in Germany.

John

Baconwallah

30-10-2012, 15:11

I should add that there were also two hospitals in St Venant itself. One was the cottage hospital, run by nuns, the other the large psychiatric hospital. The psychiatric hospital served as a dressing station for German wounded, I have seen no reports of British wounded there. The cottage hospital may have treated some, but again I have seen no useful information on the subject.

John

ivor43

31-10-2012, 00:08

hi all.
been reading thread from post 1. interesting to recap. i raised the possibility of his dying in hospital in post 129 and Jim raised it again later. but i have also been on the web trying to find an article i read about the German use of hospitals. i believe that i read that they did not use civilian hospitals preferring their own field set up.

i have been looking at ww11 talk and found some interesting stuff relating to other movement around the area.

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/1940/41890-aire-sur-la-lys-22nd-23rd-may-1940-a-3.html

this link should take you to page 3. post no 30 is a transcription of the field diary of 228 Field Co RE. you will have to scroll down to the entry for 19/5 quite interesting. the next very interesting bit is the very last post page 8 a photo of a page of a war diary,post 72. the second picture and the entry for the 24this again interesting. the place named as la motte is i believe the village of La Motte De la Bois in the forest . interesting.

ivor43

01-11-2012, 18:07

hi all.
I have spent quite some time considering the info in my last post. as you may recall i wanted to know what was going on in the area prior to the arrival of RWF/2DLI. on 24th. Well i now have a much better idea.
from the first quote it would seem possible that this was the unit responsible for blowing the bridge as St Venant if my interpretation of 'Le Bassee canal Aire east' is remotely correct. and it might appear they were mined as early as 20th
It also appears that there was a greater concentration of troops in the forest between Haverskirque and Merville than i thought.
Now for the interesting bits. the war diary on 23rd at 16.10 that enemy tanks had crossed the canal. am i right in assuming that this would have been Robecq. the next entry indicates that part of Robecq was still held on 23rd when, RWF/2DLI were approaching St Floris/St Venant.
Now this is where this part gets really interesting. We know the Germans were in St Venant/St Floris on 23rd as we have reports of the carriers being taken out there is also the report of the short fight for the bridging equipment.But sometime during night of 23rd or on the 24 the 2/5 Yorks withdrew from Robecq to the forest.as they are mentioned in the last entry in the diary. would they have gone through St Venant.
the second and possibly the more crucial entry in the diary is at 1600 on 24th where it says Haverskirque reported as captured and guns directed on it.as far as i can recall the r.v point for RWF/2DLI was stated to be Haversrque but if it fell on 24th then the r.v would have been moved, presumably to the forest, so any moves across St Venant bridge would have been very risky.
but this might explain why the Major reports that a Lt and a number of men were heading for the forest not Haverskirque.
OK any one any ideas. please.

Verrieres

01-11-2012, 18:57

A little behind with posts due to working on the Durhams repatriation list so I cannot comment on your queries Ivor,Sorry.

The repatriation list comes in with a total of 91 members of the DLI of these 15 are 2nd DLI men captured in 1940 I cannot narrow it down to a specific day Sorry.There are also two DLI officers whom have no battalion attached to them it is unlikely these were 2DLI officers but just incase I`ve added them here.The Coys are those at time of capture (as far as I can practically research)

109071 Lieutenant D R Prince.
94763 Captain A W C Shortman.

4436736 CSM T Green 2nd Durham Light Infantry `C` Company
4453527 Pte J T Forster 2nd Durham Light Infantry `A` Company
4444112 Pte M Crossen 2nd Durham Light Infantry Company not known
4448391 Pte J Forster 2nd Durham Light Infantry `A` Company
4449111 Pte H Hall 2nd Durham Light Infantry `HQ` Company
4447927 Pte A Laing 2nd Durham Light Infantry `B` Company
4444043 Pte J Mawson 2nd Durham Light Infantry `A` Company
4445726 Pte E Nottage 2nd Durham Light Infantry `HQ` Company
4449700 L/Cpl R Nelson 2nd Durham Light Infantry `A` Company
4449376 Pte S Satchwell 2nd Durham Light Infantry `A` Company
4445003 Pte S Stoker 2nd Durham Light Infantry `B` Company
3447737 Pte R Shaw 2nd Durham Light Infantry `B` Company
4442095 Pte R Taylor 2nd Durham Light Infantry `C` Company
4449628 Pte H Waterworth 2nd Durham Light Infantry `D` Company
4444040 Pte J Watson 2nd Durham Light Infantry `HQ` Company

From the list you can see that only three originate from `HQ` Company which was the company Anthony was originally with although with the confusion of battle and the fluid situation on the 27th May 1940 he could have been attached to any of them we just do not know for sure.
Best

Jim

ivor43

02-11-2012, 01:03

hi Jim.

no problem. If there is no date of capture, is there a date when wounded. if there was then it should be possible to work out where he was at the time, just a thought.

Verrieres

02-11-2012, 21:11

hi Jim.

no problem. If there is no date of capture, is there a date when wounded. if there was then it should be possible to work out where he was at the time, just a thought.

Hello Ivor,
The details of capture and wounds etc would be recorded on the returning PoW Questionaires at this point I do not have these (These questionaires also hold the initial question regarding any war crimes which would then be filled out on a `Form Q`) all I can say is the majority seem to have been paid at the last pay parade 11th-14th May Sorry.
Tony has now made contact with George Rodgers who succesfully found his brother Tom who was listed as missing in the same action as Anthony Corkhill so I think he intends to put the repatriation list on the back burner while he compares notes with George.
Tony was given an admission slip for a wounded DLI soldier from the 27th May 1940 on it there is a stamp/registration mark which reads

HOPITAL COMPLEMENTAIRE 31 Mai 1940 WESTMINSTER LE TOUQUET
Any significance or clues in this at all? Would all of the DLI wounded have been sent here and if so would this Hospitals records shed any light on the quest?

Best
Jim

ivor43

02-11-2012, 23:50

hi.
interesting post Jim. regard to the wounded soldier at Le Touquet i can probably give you a pretty good explanation. But first, if you don't mind a question for John.which should make it a bit clearer.
John. in one of your earlier posts you said that BGD HQ moved to Merville on 25th but in post 30 of my quote the entry for 1400 hr on 24th. it states '' O.C. reported to Bgd HQ and found it had moved to Merville without telling him.' I assume that this would have been the HQ at Calonne ?. so it must have moved sometime prior to then.
now Jim your wounded soldier. obviously he must have been wounded in the retreat from St Venant. he would either have been in the forest or possibly with BGD in Merville. the Hq moved from Merville to a location named as Rue Vert, somewhere in the forest and then i believe to L Touquet. John i think will confirm this. I suspect initially that his wounds may not have been too serious, unless he was hospitalized at Merville and then transported with Hq when they moved.
now with regard to the list of wounded. i think the date could be of some help, not a lot.
whilst i am not sure ,i think that shortly after 14th the units were engaged in the battle at the Dyle river/canal? .so i suspect a number of them would have been wounded there. they were pulled out on 20/21st ?and sent to St Venant/St Floris area arriving on 23rd where in the following battle the others must have been wounded.
as i said not a lot of help.

ivor

Baconwallah

03-11-2012, 01:36

Ivor, my information is that Bde HQ moved to Merville on the 25th. If the RE WD says otherwise, either of the two sources is mistaken. In view of the chaotic situation (witness the many wrong dates in the RWF WD) the discrepancy does not surprise me. Some time ago I looked at Churchill's trip to France at the height of the 1940 battle. Churchill himself, his aide, the captain of the destroyer and the senior French officer waiting to conduct him to Paris all give wildly different arrival times in their reports. It was like that.

Jim, there was a British Red Cross Hospital (No 1 Base Hospital, the Duchess of Westminter's) at le Touquet in the Great War. It may well have been resurrected in 1939. And hospitals were not evacuated during the retreat: too much work and nowhere to go. The walking wounded were told to make their own way to Dunkirk.

I've seen the admission slip. It lists the doctors (one of them German, unnamed) who examined the patient on the right hand side. Bottom left is the reason for admittance: maladie, sickness. Top right it says blessure de la cuisse sinistre, wound of the left thigh.

John

ivor43

03-11-2012, 17:49

hi all.
I agree, john, that the situation was total chaos. But i was a bit surprised that a field commander was not informed. but as you say it was like that. the wounded guy, as i said i suspect that the wound, although not initially serious, had, after 4 days or so become infected.
But my main concern at the moment is the report that Haverskirque was captured on 24th. allowing for possible day or so error in the dates then there is a definite possibility that when the RWF HQ staff tried to pull back they were heading straight towards the Germans so it is no wonder they took casualties. but while i agree that things were chaotic i can not understand why a HQ Co with radio comms were not informed. odd. The RWF.WD does not mention a change in the rv point.
Now John i would like your personal opinion of this. not what the book says, it may not even say anything, but Your take on this.please.

ivor

Baconwallah

03-11-2012, 19:17

Ivor, we've been there before. See previous posts. When 1st RWF was approaching St Floris, the Germans in Haverskerque were receiving orders to pull back to the Aire - la Bassée canal ("Hitler's Halt Order", although it was more likely von Rundstedt's order sanctioned by Hitler). So when St Venant fell, there were no Germans in Haverskerque, le Touquet or anywhere else north of the Lys canal. Don't know where you got that from.

When the Germans finally crossed the St Venant bridge at noon on the 27th, a small group of RWF armed with rifles and a Bren or two had to defend the cluster of cottages at the northern exit against an enemy with all mod cons - tanks, light artillery, the lot. As you say, no wonder they took casualties. But not because the enemy came from the north.

John

ivor43

04-11-2012, 09:20

hi all.
John i have been looking at this 'stop' order and found the following.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/history/1708007-lose-battle-france-1940-meticulous-but-2.html

scroll to the post by TonyT. it makes interesting reading.
it would appear that the 'stop' order only applied to the Panzer units not infantry. and the account in the RWF WD states that when the HQ staff were trying to withdraw across the bridge they came under heavy Mortar fire. as far as i was aware this is an infantry weapon.
In the post i have linked the references are for the Panzer's to Stop to allow the infantry to catch up, not withdraw. It does not appear to be a General stop order.
If this IS correct then there would appear to be no reason why an Infantry unit could not have been in Haverskirque.

Baconwallah

04-11-2012, 10:57

Bore da Ivor,

First a general remark: Panzer divs contained an infantry regiment, including mortars. At St Venant it was the 3rd Schützen-Regiment (rifle regt). A motorised SS regt (Regt Germania) was attached for the attack across the Aire canal towards and beyond St Venant. The Infantry divisions were still trying to catch up.

3 Pz and Germania were ordered to pull back. See statement of Germania's CO below. I already mentioned this, in translation, in an earlier post.

John

2899

ivor43

04-11-2012, 16:31

Hi
The following is from Major Ellis's The War in France and Flanders 1939 - 1940 Chapter XI 24th and 25th May 1940.
while i have quoted from this before i was looking at St Venant. In a previous post i speculated as to thee direction that the 2/5 West Yorks had pulled back from Robecq. well some where in St Floris and some in Calonne. a couple more pieces of the Jigsaw
."In the Polforce sector between Thiennes and Robecq a French unit which had been holding the canal was withdrawn, leaving a gap in the defence which there were no troops to fill. Here elements of a German motorised division—the S.S. Verfügungs (or general service) Division—had crossed unopposed and had advanced to St Venant and the 2nd/5th West Yorkshire on the canal from Robecq to Hinges had moved companies back to Calonne and St Floris, to hold the flank of this enemy salient."
Ok,John, i think we have been around here before. looking at bridging units, but not this time.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/51528342/German-3rd-Panzer-Division-10-May-1940

if you look at the list you will find no mention on 10/5 of the S.S Germania. The 3rd Schutzen Brigade was made up of 3 Schutzen Regiment comprising 3 Brigades. all of which are shown as motorised.
Your quote refers to the Germania and the panzers pulling back. The panzers were to repair and refiit etc. i do not believe the order applied the Schutzen Bgd, only the tanks. theinking at the top was, it seems, to not risk the tanks as the mopping up could be done by infantry.

ivor

Baconwallah

04-11-2012, 17:47

Ivor, the push past St Venant on the 24th involved only Germania. 3rd Pz was at St Pol and its infantry was not involved. It received orders that day to capture all bridges along the Aire canal on the 25th.

Please note that Germania was in line to the left of 3 Pz. It never was part of it. For the St Venant ops it was put under command of 3 Pz. That would not qualify it for a mention in 3 Pz orbat, certainly not two weeks before that date.

John

ivor43

04-11-2012, 18:50

guys.
John, i will come back to our debate shortly but i was digging, and found another link to :-

http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=30914&start=45

you will need to scroll down nearly to the bottom but there is a very interesting pic on 23 taken apparently at Robecq. and an even more interesting pic on 27th of British POW's (note Location)

ivor43

04-11-2012, 20:57

Hi.
i have downloaded the pic of POW's but even using one of my photo progs i can find no details.there may be something on the shoulder of the 2nd from left but it is too faint to be sure. there are 5 brits and 2 Germans in the picture and it would seem possible that the German with the light cap may be giving first aid to the brit without 'tin hat' in the background.

ivor

Verrieres

06-11-2012, 11:36

Hello,

I thought people would like to know of a surprising outcome to a little `behind the scenes` investigation connected to the search for Anthony Corkhill and the great work put in by members here to see this through.
Recently a French Auction site featured photographs taken around St Venant/Robecq in late May 1940.The photos showed British PoWs gathered in St Venant and more disturbingly a huge mass grave with British Dead clearly visable.The grave photos were titled `St Venant Massacre` if it is true is yet to be established. Tony purchased these photographs and with a Farm house in the Background this was thought by both Tony and myself to be around Feme Boulet,however John recognised the photograph as the one which featured in M.Faivres book on the Robecq Rd? John then received a casualty list complete with St Venant Mayors Office Stamps of the identified victims within this grave from M.Faivre together with a modern map showing the Mass graves original location.John was correct it was no where near Ferme Boulet I spent a couple of days cross checking the list with known casualty lists on the CWGC database together with the register of St Venant Communal Cemetery and with a few minor corrections for spellings and mis-read numbers found that all of these casualties now lay at rest within the cemetery.........except one,6142300 Gnr William Arthur Barlow 226 Bty., 57 (1/5th Bn. The East Surrey Regt.) Anti-Tank Regt although he is clearly listed on this list the CWGC lists him as no known grave commemorated Dunkirk Memorial ? A second check on another list I have submitted by the Mayor in 1945 ommits Gnr Barlow completely. So where is Gnr Barlow ? Logically if every other poor soul in that mass grave is in St Venant Cemetery then does this mean Gnr Barlow rests there too ..as an unknown?
After consultation with Tony and John I have sent off the Casualty list ,Map and a copy of the Mass Grave Photograph,kindly provided by Tony,to the CWGC for their thoughts on the matter.I have received a basic acknowledgement of the contact with a promise of a follow up reply.
It is more than a bit ironic that whilst searching for Anthony we may have stumbled on another lost soul.Sorry for diversing a little here but I thought this relevant if nothing else we will be able to gauge the CWGC reaction.
Best Wishes

Jim

ivor43

06-11-2012, 11:51

hi.

great piece of work. brilliant. well done guys.

ivor

teecee1941

06-11-2012, 22:28

Ivor, forgive me for using your page but for some reason I have become unable to find the way into this thread any more. What I'd like to do is explain my theory of Anthony's disappearance that I have arrived at after a month of serious thinking and deliberating. I don't mind anyone shooting me down because most people have a much broader knowledge of the issue than I have even though I have become totally immersed in it for almost three years.

I keep thinking that we have widened the search for Anthony when maybe we should be narrowing it more. We have thought that he may have been killed and buried in Merville, Calonne, Robecq, Haverskerque etc.. Perhaps the best place to consider, is in fact, the last place he was seen alive---Saint Venant.

A while ago I found a document describing the fact that two British soldiers were killed in hospital in Saint Venant. Each had wounds to both legs. At the time, I thought nothing of this because I was convinced that Anthony was killed outside Farm Boulet at Bas Hamel and this would be a proven fact in due course.

I think that instead of thinking 'what if', 'maybe this', 'maybe that' let's look at what we already know and take it at face value.;-

The 'big picture' in Saint Venant at the time was the defence of the bridge and most personnel were involved in it one way or another.

Assuming that Anthony was wounded in this action, he would not have been able to stagger very far and therefore may have ended up on the canal bank, still in Saint Venant.

RSM Goddard must have been near enough to Anthony to be able to come across him on the bank. He was a POW and by then would not have been allowed to wander very far.

The German stretcher bearers told the RSM that they were taking Anthony to hospital. The logical choice was a hospital in Saint Venant, where they already were.

Acouple of days later two British lads with wounds to both legs were killed by the Germans.

All the above is what I think is highly likely to have happened. Certainly within the bounds of possibility. The doubtful bit? The dates are a bit tight. 25th---27th.

Now for my own 'what if'= I have heard of a hospital in the area closing down and getting 'rid' of patients around that time. 'What if' they transferred all able bodied patients to other hospitals and shot the rest.

Doubtful bit No2= The Red Cross say there are no records of Anthony ever having been booked into hospital but perhaps he was in hospital and his admission not recorded. It is worth remembering also that he may not have been in posession of his dog tags.

Like I said at the beginning, feel free to berate me if you think I am wrong. I'd rather be told I was wrong than go on forever more believing a load of bunkum.

Baconwallah

06-11-2012, 22:44

So we're back in St Venant at last. Good thinking, Tony. I've always thought so, and I'm glad the you have found a document supporting this.

As I said in a previous post, there were two hospitals in St Venant. A cottage hospital cum nursing home (possibly even cum school) run by nuns, on the Rue de Guarbecque, and a large psychiatric hospital (the Asile des Alienés) on the Rue de Busnes. Both are still there.

If Anthony was unable to communicate due to blood loss by the time he was admitted, without his dog tags identification would have been very difficult. Hence perhaps the lack of records.

All in all it sounds very plausible.

John

ivor43

06-11-2012, 23:39

Hi all.
once again good work guys.
i have also been digging in various directions and come up with some interesting stuff. if you recall i wanted to find out more about the bigger picture, not just RWF/2DLI. on the south side of the Lys was the 2/5 west yorks which i will come back to. on the north in the forest were 9RNF. 6 Y&L and 4 and 5 Royal West Kents. one of which was supposed to be relieving our guys. and it would seem from your missing chap the 1/5 E Surrey.and i haven't really looked very hard. quit a concentration of troops.
now the 2/5 w Yorks in post 382 i linked a document which stated that late on 23/05 they were still holding part of Robecq.but 2 Company's had been detached 1 to Calonne and 1 to St Floris.
I can understand sending a Co to Calonne. it was a major road jct, and Bgd Hq was there.in the link (382) where there is a ref to Hq moving to Merville it mentions covering troops.I think it reasonable to assume these were 2/5 W.Y.
Now let us return to St Floris. why was it so important that it justified a whole Co to defend it, i could understand them being sent to St Venant to defend the bridge, but there does not seem to be anything at St Floris of strategic importance. unless, Hmmm Bridging Equipment. German Bridging Equipment captured by RWF. another interesting question arises here. there is no mention of 2/5 in the RWF WD. but if 2 DLI was given the task then surely the fact that they relieved 2/5 would have been recorded.
my next point is. in link (382) it states that Haverskirque was in German hands on the 24th. On 25th the RWF. WD. tells of a party of German Engineers traveling towards St Venant from direction of Haverskirque. Hmmmm.
this link is not directly concerned with our quest but might make some interesting bedtime reading, you might already know about it

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/1940/22814-british-soldiers-murdered-%EAt-de-nieppe-nieppe-forest-1940-a.html

ivor

ivor43

07-11-2012, 13:19

teecee.
no problem mate.
it seems odd that you come back to St Venant he same time as i get back to St Floris. as you have probably gathered i have expanded my search and found some interesting stuff, but only as far as the forest to the north and Robecq in the south.
one of the main points being the explanation why German Engineers were heading to St Venant from Haverskirque on 25th (RWF. WD ). information seems to point to it being taken on 24th. this brings me right back to the Bridging stuff at St Floris.
With regard to Anthony's location, we know from evidence it was on the canal bank. that would seem to indicate that the POW's where being marched off along the canal, not a road. but as to where we still really have no idea. As far as hospitals are concerned, i still believe that he would have been taken to the one at Calonne. There are some 14 unknowns buried there.

ivor

ivor43

07-11-2012, 19:12

just found this, interesting. the engineers were probably the 228 field unit

''On the 22nd May 137th Brigade which by now consisted of 2/5th West Yorks, Don Battalion and some engineers spent the day preparing defences on the road and rail bridges, preparing bridges for demolition and fortifying the villages behind the canal line.

On the 23rd May 32nd Field Regiment arrived and deployed near Neuf Berquin to support 137th Brigade. The Germans crossed the canal in the 137th Brigades sector in the morning and eventually took the high ground at Morbecque and pushed deep into the Foret de Neippe cutting off the 2/5th West Yorks from Brigade HQ. The Germans succeeded in turning the flanks of the battalions companies on the canal line forcing the battalion to withdraw to a new line along the road between Robecq and Calonne.

By the 24th May 2/5th West Yorks had been driven back from the canal but were holding the Germans up at Calonne with the help of three French tanks. Later during the afternoon as a result of a counter attack to the north of the battalions positions the Germans withdrew.

On the 25th May 2/5th West Yorks were relieved by 2nd Division and withdrew into reserve at St. Floris.

On the 28th May 137th Brigade moved to the Dunkirk perimeter via Berthem and Poperinghe where they stayed for the night''.

ivor

On the 24th May the SS-Verfügungs-Division had taken St Venant and then, despite being ordered to halt, continued their advance the following day.

ivor43

07-11-2012, 19:31

john.
re the stop order. scroll down to the sentence just above the pic of the RWF memorial

http://www.webmatters.net/txtpat/index.php?id=272

ivor

ivor43

11-11-2012, 14:31

hi all.
as you may recall i have been unhappy with some of the dates differing between accounts. but before i get too carried away with what i appear to have found. i would like confirmation of the following if you don't mind

St Floris. Lt Garnett DOD 23/05/40

Robecq. 4189609 Jones.W.H. DOD 23/05/40.

watch this space.

ivor

jungle1810

12-11-2012, 14:18

Hello,
The following is from the RED DRAGON page 28. The carrier platoon under Second LT J Garnett led the way to St Floris with "C" company following on foot.Messages were soon coming back to say that the village was in the hands of the enemy, but "C" company continued to advance and at the cost of a few casualties, cleared the village and took several prisoners. Continuing along the road to ST Venant, the carrier platoon came under accurate fire from German anti tank guns and the two leading carriers were knocked out with the loss of both their crews. Among those killed was the the Platoon Commander , Second LT Garnett whose proved efficiency was a grievous loss to the Battalion.
Regards R B D

jungle1810

12-11-2012, 14:35

Hello,
From the Red Dragon page 30. "B" company were charged with clearing Robecq but by 11-00 hrs "B" company ceased to exist. The following comes from the W W 2 book Casualties of the Royal Welch Fusiliers. ROBECQ COMMUNAL CEMETERY Jones Walter Henry 4189609 !st Battalion R W F 23 to 26th of May 1940,Age 26 Son of Thomas & Martha
husband of Rosina Jones of Forest Gate Essex Grave 18.
Regards R B D

ivor43

12-11-2012, 23:43

hi all.
thanks for the info Brian.
what follows is quite difficult as i have to collate info from several sources. i know it is not directly concerned with our quest, but it might just clear up some of the discrepancies with the dates.
first. the dates of the death of 2nd Lt Garnett. his grave in St Floris together with 6 other RWF men clearly specifies 23rd

http://www.webmatters.net/txtpat/index.php?id=288

therefore, unless CWGC has made a mistake with the 7 men, then RWF/2DLI must have reached Sf Floris on 23rd. the same applies to the Fusilier buried in Robecq

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead.aspx?cpage=1

this record states clearly 23rd.

Further to this, i think it was YDG that states that they arrived at Calonne by M.T. B Co to proceed to Robecq A,C and D towards St Floris behind the carriers. Also we must remember that St Venant was not their primary task. That was the bridges at Robecq. They only fell back to St Venant when they could not reach their objective.Meanwhile sometime on 24th 2/5 WY had fallen back to defend St Floris and Calonne where we are told they were holding the Germans.if RWF/2DLI had arrived on 24th things may have been a bit different.
This could also explain why Bde HQ pulled back to Merville on 23rd. as part of the planned withdrawal to the Canal Line.
looking at RWF WD it states the comms were cut with B Co on 26th but from the CWGC dates of the deaths are 23rd to 25th. again the WD for 27th has in red possibly 26th.
it appears to me that an error in the WD date has occurred some time prior to 22nd and has been continued.
i hope this makes sense and i am not out of order.

ivor

Verrieres

13-11-2012, 08:22

hi all.
thanks for the info Brian.
what follows is quite difficult as i have to collate info from several sources. i know it is not directly concerned with our quest, but it might just clear up some of the discrepancies with the dates.
first. the dates of the death of 2nd Lt Garnett. his grave in St Floris together with 6 other RWF men clearly specifies 23rd

http://www.webmatters.net/txtpat/index.php?id=288

therefore, unless CWGC has made a mistake with the 7 men, then RWF/2DLI must have reached Sf Floris on 23rd. the same applies to the Fusilier buried in Robecq

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead.aspx?cpage=1

this record states clearly 23rd.

Further to this, i think it was YDG that states that they arrived at Calonne by M.T. B Co to proceed to Robecq A,C and D towards St Floris behind the carriers. Also we must remember that St Venant was not their primary task. That was the bridges at Robecq. They only fell back to St Venant when they could not reach their objective.Meanwhile sometime on 24th 2/5 WY had fallen back to defend St Floris and Calonne where we are told they were holding the Germans.if RWF/2DLI had arrived on 24th things may have been a bit different.
This could also explain why Bde HQ pulled back to Merville on 23rd. as part of the planned withdrawal to the Canal Line.
looking at RWF WD it states the comms were cut with B Co on 26th but from the CWGC dates of the deaths are 23rd to 25th. again the WD for 27th has in red possibly 26th.
it appears to me that an error in the WD date has occurred some time prior to 22nd and has been continued.
i hope this makes sense and i am not out of order.

ivor

Morning Ivor,

Just a word of caution do not rely on the CWGC dates of death they are often approximate dates. I am working my way through a list of personnel found in a mass grave,most are buried at St Venant,yet a lot of the dates appear to be `between` with some covering a 20-30 day period. One case,which I clarified with John,dealt with a young soldier from the Royal Berkshires buried at St Venant the CWGC have a date of death of 10th May 1940.The Royal Berkshires would have been no where near St Venant at the time which raises more questions than I have answers for.
Best

Jim

ivor43

13-11-2012, 16:00

hi folks.
Jim. thanks for the warning, but in this case i do not believe them wrong.If we accept that RWF.WD is one day out and further evidence of this is that there is evidence from German accounts the the attack started on 27th not 28th then the dates 23rd to 25th fit exactly with the WD. when the original error occurred who knows , it may have been when they pulled back from the Dyle. If the person responsible for the diary had been killed then whoever took over may have mistaken the date.

ivor

ivor43

19-11-2012, 09:08

john.
is there anything of interest in this as it refers to 22nd and appears to come from M Faivre.

http://www.lechodelalys.fr/Actualite/le_pays_de_la_lys/Lillers_Artois_Lys/2010/05/06/article_22_mai_1940_le_village_sous_les_bombes.sht ml

another one
http://storage.canalblog.com/31/82/731802/53024408.pdf

ivor

Baconwallah

19-11-2012, 09:47

Not really interesting, Ivor. The first article concerns the bombing of St Venent by the Luiftwaffe on the 22nd. The second article is a short review of the fighting, as taken from M Faivre's book. Nothing we didn't know already.

John

Verrieres

21-11-2012, 20:48

You may recall some time ago I posted in regard to an `oral` account of the battle seen from 2DLI HQ Companys perspective held at the IWM which unfortunately is`nt available online at present (or the near future for that case) so I do not know if this will come as good or bad news.Anyway I have found a second `oral` account the bad news is it too is at the IWM and is `unavailable` online. What it contains is an account from Pte Fred Cottier 2nd DLI the IWM lists this amongst the topics covered in the interview/account

...attack on Headquarters Company in graveyard; near attack on asylum; evacuation of patients from asylum; shelling from Germans; events in Battalion Headquarters; dispatch taken to brigade; events on return journey; capture of Battalion and Brigade Headquarters; start of period without unit; reaction to situation; story of Bugle Major Mason; activities and events during retreat to Dunkirk;....
Frustrating is`nt it!

<DT>Catalogue number </DT><DD>

10601

</DD><DT>Subject period </DT><DD>Second World War</DD><DT>Production date </DT><DD>1991</DD><DT>Alternative Names </DT><DD>

object category: IWM interview

</DD><DT>Creator </DT><DD>

IWM (Production company)
Cottier, Frederick Edwin (interviewee/speaker)
Thistlethwaite, Chris (recorder)

</DD><DT>Category sound</DT>

Best

Jim

Baconwallah

21-11-2012, 21:58

"Frustrating" doesn't even come close, Jim. Two eyewitness accounts, and even from HQ Coy, and no way of getting at them.

Would the IWM be more inclined to assist if they knew we need this material to try and bring an old soldier in from the cold? But then, I assume you told them.

There must be someone who knows someone who knows a brass hat at the IWM.

John

Verrieres

21-11-2012, 22:57

"Frustrating" doesn't even come close, Jim. Two eyewitness accounts, and even from HQ Coy, and no way of getting at them.

Would the IWM be more inclined to assist if they knew we need this material to try and bring an old soldier in from the cold? But then, I assume you told them.

There must be someone who knows someone who knows a brass hat at the IWM.

John

Shortly after posting I have received some very encouraging news regarding the recordings they are still not available online from the IWM but and this will not be confirmed until Friday at the earliest but.............I may yet have access through Durhams `Listen to the Soldier Project` Fingers crossed everyone!

Best Wishes

Jim

Verrieres

22-11-2012, 23:19

Just don`t know what to say anymore,Shot down in flames again!!!

Thank you for your email
I am very sorry but at the moment you cannot access the 'Listen to the Soldier' collection at the Record Office. There has been problems with the system, which is provided by the Imperial War Museum. We have had contact with them about the problem, but as yet it has not been solved.

It may help if you are able to contact IWM to let them know you want to access the audio files. It is possible that they may be able to suggest an alternative way.

Yours sincerely

Liz Bregazzi
County Archivist

Best
Jim:arghh:

ivor43

26-11-2012, 22:24

Hi All.

As some of you may recall I wanted to know what was going on in the area when our guy’s arrived. I think I now have a pretty good idea.
Prior to the 23rd the Bassee Canal line was being held to the north and south of Robecq by 137 Bgd which was mainly the 2/5 West Yorkshire’s and a French unit, which was withdrawn, leaving a gap at Robecq. On the 22nd there is a report that, I believe it was 228 Field Co R.E. was mineing the bridges and strengthening defences behind the Canal line.
It is known that on 23rd the German’s had crossed the Canal and where in St Venant with patrols heading towards Merville. Major Ellis in his The War In France and Flanders 1939 – 1940 (Ch9) states that 2/5 had sent a Co to Calonne and one to St Floris to protect the flank of this incursion. The remainder of 2/5 is still recorded as being in Robecq.
This would appear to be the situation when 1RWF/2DLI (6th Bgd) arrived as I believe also on the 23rd
.As far as I am aware the objectives for the 6th were the bridges at Robecq and also they were to be defended to the last man. B Co RWF where able to fight their way into Robecq. but the others were unable to gain their objectives due to the German’s presence in prepared defences. So they fell back to St Floris. It was only at the intervention of Col Harrison that they were in St Venant at all. I can find no indication that St Venant was ever part of the defensive strategy. However St Floris was. Odd.
It is recorded, again by Major Ellis that the 2/5 WY who where holding the German’s at Calonne were relieved by 2nd Div and withdrew to reserve at St Floris?
Also I have posted a link to a document which would appear to show that on 24th Haverskirque was in German hands. This would account for the entry in the RWF WD of the party of engineers approaching St Venant from that direction. This would make the St Venant bridge a very dangerous crossing point, as the RWF HQ troops found.
Again it is recorded that 2/5 withdrew from St Floris and the RWF/2DLI were not made aware of this leaving them exposed.
All the above has been obtained from various sources on the web. But it raises a few interesting points.
First, why St Floris. I can understand it from the point of view of defending the flank of the German break through. But to send troops to there as reserve from Calonne when the R.V was the forest surely the most obvious route would have been the Calonne to Merville Rd.
I said very early on in this investigation that I thought that St Floris might hold the key. What I have found seems to reinforce this belief.
Second. the stop order of 24th was not ordered by Hitler, he just confirmed an order by Von Runstead. This order only referred to the tank units and the purpose was to allow the other mechanised units to catch up. but not all units obeyed it. Those that fell back did so for repair etc. however a large no of the German High Command were unhappy with the way the tanks were operating as independent units far ahead of the infantry. It was also felt that there was a risk using tanks in this final stage of this part of the operation as the mopping up was better suited to the infantry and the tanks were needed for the next phase of the operation.
Several other points have arisen, but these need further digging.
In conclusion, while this does not move our search any further foreword it might just indicate that there is some significance to St Floris that we are not aware of.

Ivor.

dcdl12976

04-12-2012, 17:12

Hi folks i have been looking at this with interest since last Saturday and i would like to throw some first hand snippets into the thread, the reason being i was talking to my Father who was 1st Bn Royal Berks at this time and he told me the following story even though it really has no bearing on the OP, s question.

"I was part of a group guarding a crossroads where we were expecting the Germans to cross this was close to a canal with a footbridge. On the canal was a large boat which we searched in case there was Germans hiding or using it. We had not been there long when we were hit by an artillery strike which killed 7 men and wounded several others including me when i was in the area last year on a battlefield tour i thought of looking for my mate Jonno,s grave but i didn’t know where to start or if i would be able to find it. My mates name was Peter Joynson and he died in my arms and i buried him by the side of the crossroads putting his rifle at the grave with his helmet and dog tags on the butt. A short while later young artillery FOO came running up in tears saying im so sorry but this is the location they gave me for German positions it seems we had been hit by our own artillery. When i eventually got back to England i was placed in a hospital in Warwick and spoke to the nurses asking if they knew Jonno,s parents who i thought lived very near to the hospital (his father was Brigadier retired Laurence Bright Joynson) one of them knew where the house was and i asked them to ask Jonno,s parents to come and see me. When they arrived i told them what had happened to there son for which they thanked me".

After this i went home and checked the WGC web site where i found Jonno,s details he was at some point reburied in Haverskque British Cemetery Row EE Grave 12

Jonno,s details are as follows.
Peter Joyson
Rank Lance corporal
Service no 5336849
Died 25/5/1940
Age 19

Son of Laurence Bright Joyson and Ethel Vera Joynson of Warwick.

Dad says the crossroads was NOT in a town but was very close to the canal.

I intend to ask Dad a few more questions soon but at 94 he isnt keen on talking to much about those days (understanable).

Now a question for the forum.

Does anyone know where the Berks Bn HQ was as this would help place the crossroads since all being well i intend to take Dad to the area so he can say Goodbye to his mate and place a wreath on the grave as he has asked.

From looking a the google map there is not many crossroads that fit the criteria (one such is just to the North of the St venant Bridge on the road to Haverskque), however from the posts on here this was not the Royal Berks area unless of course they were still advancing to retake the area on the morning of the 25th.

Speaking of the Royal berks HQ earlier it the thread a link was posted to some prisoners outside a barn and farm . I know the HQ was captured on the 27th by the Germans could this phots be of the Berks HQ , i guess we may never know.

I hope you find this first hand account of the time interesting and sorry for going off the OP,s thread.

Cheers

Dave Cooke

teecee1941

04-12-2012, 20:35

Hi Dave

I'd like to say thank you for taking the time to get involved in this quest. Although it was originated by me, I am happy to say that I play the smallest part of all who have posted or have taken an interest. Happy, because others have a far superior knowledge to mine.

If you've read much of this thread you will have noticed that John (Baconwallah) and Jim (Verrieres) have kept the whole thing afloat since the summer and continue to do so. Ivor (Vori101) chips in regularly with all sorts of thought provoking stuff, and quite a few others have made good contributions.

I am certain that in a day or so, someone will identify the Berks Bn HQ or give you some good information.

Thanks again for your interest.

Tony

Baconwallah

04-12-2012, 21:17

Welcome to the Forum, Dave.

Attached an annotated screendump from Google Earth.

The photo of the prisoners showed Royal Welch, not Royal Berks, as far as I know.

John

ivor43

04-12-2012, 23:12

hi Dave.
may i also add my welcome, and thank you for the info. i can appreciate the fact that you father doesn't want to talk about those times. but to hear from someone who was there is absolutely remarkable and brings, to me at least, a sense of reality of what was happening. I have read a great deal of stuff about this time but your fathers words are of greater importance than any words written years later.
thanks again for the info which i find very interesting.

ivor

ivor43

05-12-2012, 07:01

good morning John.

I think we have met his guy before but i don't remember this article. any thoughts on the translation ?.

http://www.worcestershireregiment.com/wr.php?main=inc/german_h_kallmeyer

seems he was in St Venant 24th ?

ivor

Baconwallah

05-12-2012, 09:56

Bore da Ivor,

We may have met him, but he is not on my lists of Germania officers and during the 27th attack was on the far left, beyond the Berks. What he tells about the advance of the 23rd we know already.

The translations provided on the page are atrocious. Anyone translating "Panzerdeckungslöcher" (holes dug to provide cover from tanks) as "Armoured holes in the budget" ought to be shot.

John

dcdl12976

05-12-2012, 16:56

Thanks for the welcome guys, John thanks for the map do you know what date is the Berks positions from mate please ?. knowing this makes locating the crossroads far easier, however there doesnt appear to be a crossroads as such close to the footbridge and it may be that it was only a fork, after all Dad is 94 and his memory may not be totally accurate.
You wont find Horst Kallmeyer in the officers list of the period mate he was only a Lanser not becoming an officer till i think 1943. I do agree the translation leaves a lot to be desired but to be fair some of the origional diary looks as though it was unreadable judging by the question marks etc.

Interesting the photo of the Soldier on the canal bank i suspect there would have been qiuite a lot of casualties on the bank. I have to say i still cant get my head around the two HQ,s being right next to each other i would have thought that although it would be good for mutual defence it would also be to easy to take both out with one good artillery barrage. I tend to agree with an earlier post that the farm on the corner was the likely HQ of the DLI unless there was another farm on the other side of the road now occupierd by a more modern building and a car park.

Cheers now

Dave

Baconwallah

05-12-2012, 17:35

The 23rd or 25th (away from my archives till Friday night so cannot check). The crossroads is very likely the T about 70 yds west of the footbridge, opposite the Ferme Boulet.

John

dcdl12976

05-12-2012, 17:47

Thanks again John that was my feeling if it was there ought to be some ground marks from the artillery explosions unless ploughing has taken them all out.
Somwhere further back in the thread i seem to recall it was postulated that Tonys uncle may have been killed at the farm here the only way i can think of that happening was if the Germans just maybe had an aid station around there after they captured the area and he was taken there by the medics/stretcher bearers from where he was found on the canal bank, sorry if this has been discussed before and i may have got it all wrong.

Baconwallah

05-12-2012, 20:41

A good suggestion, Dave, and one which has been considered here already. There was an aid post at Ferme Boulet. I think the identification is unlikely, though, as it would have meant that the Germans transported a wounded prisoner right across their LoC to an aid post outside 3 Pz Div area. Moreover, the man at Ferme Boulet was murdered at noon, at about the same time that 2 DLI HQ was overrun and Anthony was seen and made comfortable on the canal bank.

You mentioned the two HQs (DLI and RWF) being close to each other. The RWF HQ initially was in a house on the south side of St Venant and was moved to a spot close to the DLI on Sunday 26th when it became untenable as a result of enemy shelling.

"While the CO was away with the Battalion IO [visiting 1 Berks HQ, looking for maps of the area] the enemy started a heavy shelling of Battalion Headquarters. This was hardly surprising in view of all the activities taking place around it and of its proximity to the front line. For a time, most of the shells went safely over to bury themselves about 50 yards in rear in a soft field. At length the ramshackle building received a direct hit and partially collapsed. Astonishingly few casualties were caused, most of the occupants crawling out, covered with dust and somewhat shaken, but otherwise unhurt. Headquarters was temporarily moved to the shelter of a deep roadside ditch. The CO now returned and at once set forth again to reconnoitre a new position for Battalion Headquarters. Suitable positions, giving a good view forward, were few and the choice ultimately fell upon a cemetery, back near the Bourne Canal, to which place the second in command was ordered to move Headquarters forthwith.
The cemetery was an oblong enclosure very full of ornate tombstones. At the northern end a gateway gave access from a metalled road which ran along the southern bank of the Bourne [Lys] Canal. On this road, about a hundred yards to the east, stood a farm which was occupied by the DLI Battalion HQ. To the west of the cemetery gate, at a distance of about a hundred and fifty yards, the canal road joined a main road running north and south and which here crossed the canal at bridge ‘E ’. The northernmost houses of St-Venant straggled on either side of the main road as far as bridge ‘E’. Between these houses and the cemetery there was a copse, the floor of which was chiefly swamp."

John

dcdl12976

11-12-2012, 17:30

That was my feeling it would not have been logical to have moved him all that way past as i understand it two hospitals in St Venant and possibly at least one unit first aid post and of course the timeings make it impossible.

Another snippet from Dad, he spent his 21st birthday (24th October) in a bunker on the Belgium border just outside a town called Mouchin North of Orchies. At some point his young officer came to him and gave him a small bottle of whisky saying "happy birthday Cooke but dont get caught with it". He also told me that during the retreat they stopped the night in a Chateu where in the cellar they found a large cask of Brandy which they promptly drank despite being ordered to leave it in case it was poisoned (apparently the locals did this sort of thing hoping to catch the Germans out). Realising the orderly Officer/Sgt would notice they filled it back up, i shall leave you to guess what hey filled it with but they were hoping some German Officers would drink some of it in his words " we though it would be bloody funny Germans drinking British ****" Thats exactly as Dad told it.

I hope to go with Dad to his mates grave next year as he wants to place a wreath on it and say a proper goodbye, i just hope at 94 he is fit enough to manage the trip.

Cheers gang.

Verrieres

13-12-2012, 15:55

Sorry to divert this but should we make progress with Pte Corkhill any dealings with the CWGC may give some insight into the battle ahead in actually getting any findings officially acknowledged.You may recall the post refering the mass grave containing a Gnr Barlow whose name is subsequently missing from other casualty lists with the CWGC eventually listing him as `No known grave` commemorated on the Dunkirk memorial? Well heres their reply having been sent the grave photograph and the official list from the Mayors office at St Venant......

Thank you for your e-mail of 6th November 2012 regarding Gunner William Alfred Barlow, commemorated on the Dunkirk Memorial.
The Commission does not hold any details regarding any possible place of burial for Gunner Barlow. There are 177 unknown burials of the Second World War in St. Venant Communal Cemetery, and it is possible that Gunner Barlow may be one of these, but there is no evidence to prove that this is the case.
Army Graves Concentration Units would have had the responsibility of removing remains from field grave sites for reburial into a permanent place of burial. As the work of these units predates the involvement of the Commission with the Second World War graves at St. Venant Communal Cemetery, we do not hold any maps or details regarding battlefield clearance or any mass field graves found in the local area.
Attempts were also made by these units to identify remains of individual casualties, but this would have been difficult in areas which had been previously been occupied by the enemy years before.
Gunner Barlow is commemorated on the Dunkirk Memorial as his grave could not be identified. The Commission does not have information on the circumstances of death and initial disposal of remains for servicemen and women with no known grave.
Yours sincerely
Paul Davis
Enquiries Administrator
Commonwealth War Graves Commission

To be brutely honest it was common sense to assume they held no record or further information on Gnr Barlow that was the point of my e-mail to alert them of the fact that there does exist with the Mayors Office another more detailed casualty list. My reply is...

Thank you Mr Davies for your reply regarding Gnr Barlow.I am aware that the occupants of this grave were buried under German supervision in 1941-42 and a full list submitted by the St Venant mayor at the time which was attached with the photograph to my initial mail.I am also aware that post mortems were carried out both at the time of buriel and at the end of the war by the British.It was simply the omission of Gnr Barlow from the later list and his subsequent commemoration on the Dunkirk Memorial rather than in the St Venant Cemetery under a named headstone.
Even if his remains were subsequently `lost` the fact that he is listed on the original exhumation list does he not warrant a `Known to be buried` headstone? There was after all enough personal effects to identify Gnr Barlow initially and the fact that every other soldier from that grave lies at St Venant. I am surprised that the commision holds so few records on this particular location as the locations of the temporary graves and occupants are are well known in France and have appeared in recent years in at least one publication.I was aware that you held nothing further on Gnr Barlow but hoped my e-mail would have alerted you to the possibility that there does exist albeit not currently held by yourselves more information on this matter.The list I forwarded onto you bears the official Mayors office stamp could enquiries not be made through your French Office?
Could you please tell me what the criteria would be to have a soldier,such as Gnr Barlow,remembered with a `Known (Believed) to be buried in this cemetery` headstone. I am not a relative but I am interested in any opinions you may have on this matter
Yours

Best

Jim

PS..................... 177 UNKNOWNS IN ST VENANT ???????????

Baconwallah

13-12-2012, 21:19

Well done, Jim. Keep up the pressure.

John

Verrieres

17-12-2012, 16:12

Yet another disappointment a definate NO!

Thank you for your reply.<O:P></O:P>
The records that the Commission holds regarding St. Venant Communal Cemetery were based on the information provided to us by the service authorities, and we do not hold any documentation regarding the mass grave that you had highlighted. As this is the case, this means that we are unable to confirm the list that you have provided regarding those casualties that were originally buried in this site. <O:P></O:P>
As Gunner Barlow is commemorated on the Dunkirk Memorial, it must be assumed that the military authorities were unable to make an identification of his remains. Without more stantial evidence regarding the place of burial for Gunner Barlow, we cannot accede to your request to erect a special memorial marker in St. Venant Communal Cemetery.<O:P></O:P>
We are of course aware that this decision will come as a disappointment, but I hope you are able to appreciate how the Commission is placed in such matters.<O:P></O:P>

Yours sincerely<O:P></O:P>

<O:P></O:P>

Paul Davis<O:P></O:P>

Enquiries Administrator<O:P></O:P>

I seem to have addressed my initial question to the wrong people but I need one last answer from the CWGC.As you can see by the reply above they did not give the Criteria we need to have Gnr Barlow recognised as buried there.

Dear Mr Davies,
Thank you for your reply I do appreciate that you act on the information available to you and perhaps I was wrong to assume that as I had highlighted the source of the list enquiries might be made by yourselves at the Mayors office in St Venant.Nevertheless disappointing as this outcome has been I now know through your correspondence that I might have best addressed my initial enquiry to the Ministry of Defence? As you have stated you have only the records supplied by the Service Authorities? With this in mind should my future enquiries with the Ministry of Defence verify the existance of the other record of buriel,as submitted by myself, then with their approval would the commision again look at the case of Gnr Barlow?.I thank you for your replies to date but would welcome one final answer from yourselves on his point.
Yours

I have had little dealings with the MoD in the past but on the rare occasions I have spoken with them they have been very thorough managing to source records previously thought destroyed.Its finding the right person to speak to. Tony the search for Anthony still goes on this is all linked if the MoD have anything at all on St Venant in May 1940 it will not be confined to just Gnr Barlow I know.

Best Wishes

Jim

Verrieres

18-12-2012, 20:14

Better News today I have had limited access to the recordings dealing with Sgt Wray and Pte F Cottier. There are no mentions of Anthony by name but there is a detailed account of the actions at the HQ .I do have brief details but hopefully I can get access again to give a full acount here.This is just to give something a little more positive on the search for Pte Corkhill after a series of disappointments.

Best

Jim

dcdl12976

19-12-2012, 17:21

Looking forward to that Jim, lets face it ANY info may help to find answers and untill we understand the confusion at that time we have little hope of even second guessing what happened to Anthony. The stuff from the CWGC doesnt surprise me they cant be the font of all knowledge in this, however if the MOD has any info i would hope it will surface in due time though even though i work for the MOD i dont have a clue who would be able to help or to contact just a though but maybe a request for info under the freedom of information act though i would think this would be to wide a remit for that avenue, who knows it may be worth a try.

Cheers now and have a good festive season gang.

Dave

Verrieres

19-12-2012, 18:11

Hello Dave,
A bit belated as I think I was away when you arrived but WELCOME !. Today has been what I term a good day ! Two e-mails awaited my arrival from work the first was again from the CWGC and this time not only did they concede that the information they hold was supplied by the old War Office (Modern Day Ministry of Defence ) but have provided address,department and point of contact regarding our `missing` casualties.Just as relevant for Anthony Corkhill as Gnr Barlow.What they have stressed is the proof will have to be substancial but they will act on the guidance of the MoD. Now the hard part really starts especially if M.Faivre is now the keeper of the Mayors records? Still it will be a challenge!
Second mail was in relation to the Sound Archive at the IWM as most will know the IWM is preparing for a major refurbishment and workmen are already at work well somehow the audio has come back online albeit it does suffer from loss of link now and again but we can for the moment listen to accounts by McLane,Wray and Cottier and its just dawned on me as I`m typing away that I have notchecked yet for Audio recordings for the period from the RWF and Royal Berks.So hopefully we can have a few more detailed accounts very soon.

Best

Jim

Looking forward to that Jim, lets face it ANY info may help to find answers and untill we understand the confusion at that time we have little hope of even second guessing what happened to Anthony. The stuff from the CWGC doesnt surprise me they cant be the font of all knowledge in this, however if the MOD has any info i would hope it will surface in due time though even though i work for the MOD i dont have a clue who would be able to help or to contact just a though but maybe a request for info under the freedom of information act though i would think this would be to wide a remit for that avenue, who knows it may be worth a try.

Cheers now and have a good festive season gang.

Dave

dcdl12976

19-12-2012, 19:24

Thanks for the welcome mate. Nice one as i said ANY info on the confused state of affairs in this area at the time just may give us a clue, as i said before im hoping to get to the area next year with Dad (if at 94 he is well enough to go) you never know sight of the area may just jog his memory for some information though of course as Royal Berks it probably will not be pertinent to this threads aim.

Who was it that said
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. (http://philosiblog.com/2012/05/22/when-you-have-eliminated-the-impossible-whatever-remains-however-improbable-must-be-the-truth/) Arthur Conan Doyle i believe

Verrieres

26-12-2012, 19:12

Hello hope you all had a nice Christmas ? Apology to John for disturbing him on Christmas day!
Whilst reading through a few things on here and cross referencing with some casualty lists it has dawned on me once again that the CWGC have been ,shall we say, selective in what they have told me in relation to the mass grave which may (may not) contain the RA gunner.

You will recall in their reply to me just a couple of weeks ago ;-

......we do not hold any maps or details regarding battlefield clearance or any mass field graves found in the local area.

or this one;-

.........The records that the Commission holds regarding St. Venant Communal Cemetery were based on the information provided to us by the service authorities, and we do not hold any documentation regarding the mass grave that you had highlighted.

I took them at their word then this evening on their main site ,staring out at me is this;-

There are 253 Commonwealth burials of the 1914-18 war, 10 of which are unidentified, and 177 of the 1939-1945 war, 40 of which are unidentified, in this site. The 1939-45 total includes the 90 originally buried in a mass grave and an officer who is commemorated by a special memorial inscribed "Believed to be".

So they were aware of a mass grave? They were aware of 90 men within that grave (about thirty more than I was) ! Then why consistantly deny any knowledge ? Do they believe a denial will satisfy such an enquiry??? perhaps it would from `Joe Public` but it just heightens my frustrations and renews my determination.Theres more out there I was just coming round to believing that by providing a point of contact within the MoD that the CWGC were finally coming to realise that these `missing` men ,Pte Corkhill and Gnr Barlow matter! Despite the passage of time they need to be brought in from the cold!

Best

Jim

dcdl12976

27-12-2012, 16:14

Hmm that is strange Jim i can only assume that the guy you are exchanging E-Mails with doesnt know or look at there site before replying to an E-Mail or it may just be that he is one of very few to deal with what may well be a shed load of enquiries every day, as they say in the house "the honourable Gentleman is being economical with the truth i think".
Just shows though we cannot take anything they say as gospel and indeed "take with a pinch of salt" springs to mind. Could it be that they dont want to get into a war crimes situation investigation in which case it may be there policy not to admit anything related to one. (just a thought) being a civil servant myself i know these things happen it may even be that the relevant paperwork has not been released to the public domain yet and therefore officialy doesnt exist (again just a thought).

Jim could you let me have the contact details in the MOD as since i work for them i just may be able to help, no promises mind. Also give me a brief outline of what questions you want asked.

Cheers now

Dave

ivor43

27-12-2012, 17:21

Hi Dave.
as you say, strange.
I am a retired Civil Servant,MOD,(RAF) and i too have been considering the possibilities regarding this situation. I tend to agree with you, but, there is a possibility you may not have considered. They may not be in possession of the full facts. We know the Frenchman is in possession of a number of files whether originals or copies we do not know, nor do we really know how long he has had them. These files appear to have been in the office of the Mayor of Haverskirque previously. So they are effectively out of the British Public Domain. Therefore not subject to freedom of information requests.

You mention the possibility of a War Crime Situation. I am not sure about this, We were only seeking to follow the path of the Tom Rogers Investigation, which I would have expected to Highlight any such problems. So while I would welcome any assistance you may be able to provide, please do not do anything that may cause any problems to yourself or your position within the MoD.

ivor

dcdl12976

27-12-2012, 17:56

Ivor, Hmm i had not thought of them not being in full possession of the facts which is rather remiss of me, i would have thought though that if the Frenchman has the original paperwork then the MOD should at least have copies (Or the other way round).

Sometimes things like this are not highlighted simply because it is not policy to even talk about it (i would imagine as an ex MOD civil servant yourself you have run across this). If i can help in any way i will indeed do so, dont worry about me putting my position in danger mate at 60 i can retire anytime so i dont really care anyway. To be fair most officials within the MOD nowadays are extremely helpful and would not consider it an affront if asked in the right way for any help by MOD employee and i do have the advantage that i can use an MOD E-Mail address and telephone number. At thwe end of the day they can only say i cant help you at the worst.

Cheers now

Dave

ivor43

27-12-2012, 18:34

hi.
I agree the E mail and MoD phone book can get some very interesting doors opened. i suspect this may be a topic not spoken about.
But good luck, if you can get to the right person, with the right questions. who knows what will come to light.

ivor

teecee1941

01-01-2013, 19:07

I would very much like to wish a happy and prosperous New Year to all of the 126 members who have read this thread. Special thanks to Jim, John, Ivor and Dave and all others who took the time to be involved during 2012. Your efforts are very much appreciated.

Regards,

Tony

Verrieres

09-01-2013, 19:08

Hello,
All the best everyone a little late I know but better late than never.

To continue.......

I`m still working on those lists its taking longer than I anticipated..actually I`m prone to distraction! One distraction I have found is while examaning The Townsend Diaries unfortunately it is not going to help our search for Anthony one bit I`m afraid.The Diary reveals that following the actions on the Dyle 2 DLI pulled back to a new line six miles in the rear ,shortly afterwards they were pulled back again in need of organisation the men were distrubuted into `new` Companies headed by what officers they had with CSMs and senior NCOs filling in for officers...would this mean RSM Goddard would now leave HQ Company and head one of these ad hoc Companies?
If he did we do`nt know but what Townsend does record is that following the `fallback` there was no time for transport to be brought forward and ALL military equipment was abandoned save for Brens and Anti tank rifles which they carried away.He further states with No Signal Equipment,Pioneer Equipment etc there was no need to keep HQ Company intact and its personnel were used as riflemen distributed between the companies. Who was Anthony with on the 27th May 1940 ? Remember Remnants of B Company together with D Company were at the `other` Bridge.A and C Companies were along the railway line in St Venant and their HQ was in the cemetery.
The audio recordings at the IWM are now back online and Fred Cottier recalls some of the Pioneers who were guarding the HQ managed to escape by swimming the canal further downstream. The audios whilst useful for background make no mention of the RSM or his batman indeed Cottier had been dispatched to the other bank to carry a message to brigade and when he returned it was all over.Sgt Wray was wounded and was brought to HQ and escaped from it but he was with A and C companies during the fighting and again witnessed the end of the action (and one named persons death in suspicious circumstances)
More distractions today when I found in Newcastle the grave of a Pte Clews in 1940 2 DLI again and died of his wounds on returning to England on doing some background checks I find in April 1946 The London Gazette published that Pte Clews had been awarded a postumous Mention in Despatches for 1940.Six years after the event ? Obviously on the recommendation of a returning PoW ? Digging a little deeper into that issue we find more awards for the period..Col Simpson CO of 2 DLI a DSO...Major Stallard 2 IC 2 DLI a DSO,Sgt Major Harry Quatrough a Military Cross, and the following additional Mention in Despatches ;-
Maj. (temp.) J. R. COUSENS (37178).
Capt. (Q.M.) O. H. PEARSON, M.B.E. (56511).
2/Lt. H. M. W. PEEL (74853) (died/posthumous).
4443691 W.O. Ill S. J. McGUIRE ( died).
4442038 W.O. Ill F. WALKER.
4449177 Sgt. W. J. CLEWS ( died).
4446379 Cpl. W. CURTIS ( died).
4449346 Pte. C. E. SUTTON.
The citations are held at the National Archives and whilst a lot of MiDs are `missing` the likes of DSO`s and Military Crosses survive..except for this entire list which are `missing`!!!
I have previously corresponded with members of Sgt Major Qualtroughs extended family and not only was my enquiry into the circumstances of his award unfruitful but the fact that he had a Military Cross was a total surprise! Are we cursed? :-)

Dave I owe you an email mate Sorry.

Best

Jim

dcdl12976

09-01-2013, 20:32

No probs Jim. This is all interesting and a few more pieces to fit into the puzzle. Just a shame the Royal Berks war diaries for the period seem to be "missing". Ah well you have done well to dig these snippets up mate and im sure there is much more to find yet, at the very least we are giving Anthony a real insight into what happened in the area over those 4 days.
Anthony dont give up mate eventually something may yet appear that gives at least a clue to your enquiry.
Cheers now folks

Dave

Verrieres

14-01-2013, 23:45

Hello,

I have corresponded with Tony over the last week or so and once again we have discussed how their was no missing man enquiry for Anthony,and how he could be definately listed as dead on the 29th May 1940. We went over a little old ground and on what the CWGC rely on for a date of death `In the case of a missing soldier such as Anthony Corkhill with his body not found/identified they go by the last date he was seen...which was? The 27th May 1940 by RSM Goddard on the canal bank as he was marched away? So the question is who bore witness to Anthonys death two days later on the 29th May?
I have thrown a few ideas into the ring over the course of these investigations and one in particular regarding the returning wounded 2DLI men in April/May 1942 was one of them and if any completed a PoW questionaire detailing (Briefly) their capture tratment and if they witnessed any war crimes (Q Forms) now that I have jogged a few memories lets briefly move to more recent lines of enquiry.
When speaking with Tony he remarked on Anthony being the only 2 DLI listed in the Book of Rememberance in Durham Cathederal yet when I checked there are three 2 DLI men listed as died on the 29th May 1940 one died of wounds at home (earlier action ?) The other two Anthony and a Pte Syd Walt who is buried at St Venant. Now Syd Walt I had looked into long before I heard from Tony and his quest for his uncle.
Syd Walt like Anthony was not featured in the missing men investigations so it was presumed by me that he had been killed in action and buried in one of the temp graves until his reburiel at St Venant I did not even notice that the date of death was two days after the action had ended.
When John kindly sent over the list of men buried in the large mass grave I started to sift through the casualty lists from the other temp graves in the area no Pte Syd Walt ??? He was listed with Anthony as `Dead` but nothing else ...until I found today tucked at the back of the file barely legible ` Died of Wounds accepted 26/06/1942??? The 26th June 1942 there are others too all confirmed in the first week of June 1942.
Where did the confirmation come from ? The Missing men investigation? Possibly but the British had approached the Red Cross to make the enquiries with the French and German authorities their letters dated 5/08/1942 and 27/11/1942. The replies from ZOLLINGER IRC GENEVA ,CSM PINKNEY PoW. and forwarded by SCHWEIZ GESANDSCHAFF ABT SCHUTZMACHT BERLIN were not received until 21st and 24th June 1943. A year after the acceptance/confirmation dates could Anthonys Q80 reference have been added at the same time ? It too is on the same list in Pencil just like these acceptance dates.
Hopefully I still have your attention and you have`nt nodded off just yet, with confirmation/acceptance in June 1942 would this not tie in with those returning PoWs I mentioned earlier April/May 1942. Pte Walt is listed as Died of Wounds somebody,like Anthony Corkhills case,witnessed this else how would they know he wasnt Killed in Action,Died of Illness etc .

Anythoughts I know its all `what ifs` but there isnt many of those returning PoWs from 2 DLI worthy of further investigation or have I missed something glaringly obvious?
Best Wishes

Jim

Baconwallah

15-01-2013, 00:18

Thanks for the update, Jim.

Perhaps Anthony's service record, when it arrives at last, will shed some light on this. And that form Q 80 must one day turn up, given a competent researcher.

Earlier this week I heard from the VDK (the German equivalent of the CWGC) that they have not yet found any relevant information but will continue the search. I sent them a new summary of our current thinking.

John

Verrieres

15-01-2013, 08:07

Morning John,

You are more than welcome .At least they (VDK) are looking which is a good thing,I have still to hear about the proposed article in the magazine and will need to get an enquiry off to the MoD ..and finish those lists off! Best get back to it.
Thanks John

Best Wishes

Jim

Thanks for the update, Jim.

Perhaps Anthony's service record, when it arrives at last, will shed some light on this. And that form Q 80 must one day turn up, given a competent researcher.

Earlier this week I heard from the VDK (the German equivalent of the CWGC) that they have not yet found any relevant information but will continue the search. I sent them a new summary of our current thinking.

John

ivor43

15-01-2013, 12:19

Hi all.
I hope everyone has fully recovered from the festive season.
I may have been quiet for a while, but not idle. i have been very quietly digging around the edges of this situation, and found some interesting stuff. However most of it is not directly concerned with this quest.
One thing which i was trying to get my head round was the apparent lack of info held by CWGC/MoD, although it is known that they have, twice, been given copies of the files held in France.
Jim tells me that these files were generated in 1941/42 by the local authorities when the Field Graves were cleared, the bodies autopsied, Under German Supervision, and re buried in St Venant. obviously no British involvement.
Now in 1946, for reasons which i do not quite understand, the British exhume some of the bodies and, this is where the problem arises,allegedly, put them back in the wrong locations.
So it would appear that the Frenchman holds the keys to the original info and the British,doing a good impression of an Ostrich, will have nothing to do with it Oh Dear. Maybe someone needs a size 9 to the 3rd lace hole in an appropriate orifice.
The next bit concerns the St Floris incident in which Lt John Brooksbank Garnett was killed. the date on his grave marker of the 23 rd, despite CWGC saying different, would appear to be correct.
I have see a death notice from the Times dated 23 May 1943, anniversary?. which states 23 rd May 1940. Also on a family Memorial in their local church at their home in Co Tyrone it also states 23rd.
There is still a lot more about this period that is not clear,and despite some fairly extensive surface scratchings and peering into a few dark corners,it isn't becoming any clearer.Odd.

Oh well, have to keep looking.

ivor

dcdl12976

15-01-2013, 16:47

Jim, could not the 1942 year be when the bodies were reburied on orders of the Germans ? the word "accepted" would appear to suggest this.

Ivor we have conversed at lenght about this brick wall and for the same reasons discussed it may be that the Frenchman is in on it.
Ref the date of the 23rd for death of Lt John Brooksbank Garnett there is burials in St Floris dated the 23rd including your Lieutenant (you probobly already know this) http://www.webmatters.net/txtpat/index.php?id=288. Seems strange since i was not aware there were any British in that area on that date. Strange that there are 7 graves all with date of death the 23rd or are these reburials and the date was assumed wrongly.
Is it possible that the bodies were exhumed to try to get evidence for a war crimes investigation/trial that or to try to identify some of the unknowns to me would be the only logical conclusions.
Cheers now folks

Dave

ivor43

15-01-2013, 17:11

Hi Dave.

Whilst in most circumstances i would not necessarily trust the CWGC dating, but in the circumstances surrounding these particular 7 deaths i am , from the evidence i have seen, totally convinced that it is correct. Also from what i said in my previous post, it would appear the Family also accepted it.
I do not think there would have been too much investigation into it.

ivor

dcdl12976

15-01-2013, 18:15

Fair enough mate, was just an idea.

Verrieres

15-01-2013, 22:21

Hi Dave,
Yes I always assumed this however the list of dead from the Mayor only exists in the War Crime File. Thats not to say it wasnt sent on earlier a distinct possibility I agree. The men classed as missing also have comments regarding sightings/fate and dates interesting enough the witness is named too but they are all different no one man witnessed more than a single case.Frustrating!. Something is starting to become apparent regarding these dates of death I do`nt have the details but once I do I`ll post anything relevant.
Best Wishes

Jim
PS I still owe you an e-Mail mate!!

Jim, could not the 1942 year be when the bodies were reburied on orders of the Germans ? the word "accepted" would appear to suggest this.

Ivor we have conversed at lenght about this brick wall and for the same reasons discussed it may be that the Frenchman is in on it.
Ref the date of the 23rd for death of Lt John Brooksbank Garnett there is burials in St Floris dated the 23rd including your Lieutenant (you probobly already know this) http://www.webmatters.net/txtpat/index.php?id=288. Seems strange since i was not aware there were any British in that area on that date. Strange that there are 7 graves all with date of death the 23rd or are these reburials and the date was assumed wrongly.
Is it possible that the bodies were exhumed to try to get evidence for a war crimes investigation/trial that or to try to identify some of the unknowns to me would be the only logical conclusions.
Cheers now folks

Dave

ivor43

16-01-2013, 01:36

hi all.
Dave i think you may have a big clue there.
The disagreement over the burial locations did not start until after the British exhumations of 1946.
So what happened in 1942.where these files examined by the Red Cross and accepted by them. and the acceptance passed to the British Authorities. who also accepted them.
If subsequently further field graves were found and not dealt with in the same manner, or maybe not examined by the Red Cross then it is very likely that any files submitted would not be accepted.
What is the possibility of the British Exhumations being in relation to these bodies ?
Is this what the Frenchman has ?

ivor

dcdl12976

16-01-2013, 16:33

Is it possible then we are just reading to much into this and things were just so confused and records being bitted at by several differnt agencies that the confusion is simplt that.
I do think however that the Frenchman knows more than he is saying and possibly has the info required but for some reason doesnt want to share it with anybody.

regards

Dave

ivor43

18-01-2013, 09:33

morning all.

It appears that in the Frenchman's Book he says that a number of British wounded were taken to the Hospital in the School at Calonne. O.K we know this, as we know that a number of British dead were buried in the field at the rear of the school. It has been my belief for some time that this is where Anthony would have been taken when picked up by the German Field Ambulance. If, for reasons which we do not know, he died here then he would have been buried with the others.
O.K. so far.
Now as i understand it the Field Grave clearances were carried out by the Local Council so we have been looking for files in Haverskirque. But does Calonne come under Haverskirque. Looking on Google maps it does not appear to do so. Have we been looking for Anthony's details in the wrong place. Where the files we want held at Calonne, and this is why any request for info re St Venant is not getting any where. a possibility.

ivor

Baconwallah

18-01-2013, 13:43

St-Pol, Haverskerque, St-Venant and Calonne-sur-la-Lys are all separate administrative entities, with their own town mayors, town halls and councils. If we are looking for a man who died in Calonne, we should go to Calonne. The St-Venant Council (and M Faivre) will know nothng about him.

I hope this will clear up the current confusion.

John

dcdl12976

18-01-2013, 13:49

Ivor, you may well have something here and i agree Calonne does not in my opinion come under St Venant it appears to be a different equivalent to our parishes ( dont know what the french call them im afraid).

ivor43

18-01-2013, 14:00

hi.

Thank you John.Appreciated. A pity i did not think of it before. might make a difference. We know that there are several Unknowns in Calonne. A fresh line of enquiry. could be good.

ivor

Baconwallah

18-01-2013, 14:43

The French word commune would be the English word 'parish' (without the religious connotation) or 'municipality'. Different commune, different mairie (town hall), maire (mayor) and conseil communal (council).

I might add that the VDK has already been checking their records for field hospitals in the Calonne ara, so far without result unfortunately. Field hospital found, but no trace of Anthony.

John

ivor43

18-01-2013, 14:43

Hi again.
Jim in you post 444 you quote a date in June 42 as an acceptance date.it is a known fact that a number of British dead were buried behind the School/ Hospital at Calonne could this be the date that these graves were cleared. it would seem logical as we now know that Calonne has no connection with St Venant.
with regard to the cause of death being given as 'Died of wounds' that is a very generalised term, wounds as a result of the battle or wounds as a result of murder by S.S. as we are also aware happened. If a Dr witnessed such an act i can not see him being allowed to make a full report into cause of death. a one word entry Dead.

ivor

ivor43

18-01-2013, 15:35

John.
I think we owe your friends in the V D K a great deal of thanks for their efforts on our behalf.
But for them to trace a man with no ''dog tags'' would be very difficult. As soon as Anthony died he really did become an unknown in the truest seance of the word.

While i know quite a lot about bodies, from the past, the Bog Bodies, Egyptian Mummies and Otzi the Ice man, who i have seen in the Museum at Bolzano, Italy.

If any of you are of a sensitive nature stop here.

I only have a sketchy knowledge of what we are dealing with here. I assume that the burials from the Hospital would be just the same as field burials no coffin. So i wonder, if, after 2 years would it be possible to establish flesh wounds etc. i know that the type of ground has a direct bearing on decomposition etc . I believe John that as a medical man you would have a much better knowledge than me.

ivor

teecee1941

18-01-2013, 23:45

Dave, Ivor, Jim, John. Thanks for your last few posts which are fascinating. I'm sorry that, although 'proprietor' of this thread I am absolutely out of my depth and eternally grateful for the effort you all continue to give to this topic. Although out of my depth and forever trailing in last place as far as knowledge is concerned, my interest has deepened as time has went on. What began as an inquisitive ''I wonder what happened to my uncle'', has widened into a search for a lost soul.

Whilst I think that the possibility of Anthony dying in hospital in Calonne is a sound one, I still find it hard to get away from the idea that if the Germans were as good as their word and took Anthony to hospital, it would have been likely that they would have taken him to a one in Saint Venant which may have been nearer.

RSM Goddard did, after all, say that he found Anthony on the canal bank 'near the village' and stated this to the Red Cross, also stating that he was taken prisoner in Saint Venant on the 27th May 1940. Without searching for a map of the area, I am unsure of the difference in distance between a Saint Venant hospital and one in Calonne.

In a way, it would be better if he did die in Calonne. It would give us new ground to cover and that important clue could be 'just around the corner'. It is doubtful that the bodies in Calonne would have been re-interred which is a pity because Anthony's belongings may have been put to one side like they did with the victims in Saint Venant. You never know, somewhere, there might be a haversack with a letter addressed to Anthony which would identify him. It's this sort of thing that keeps giving me hope.

Regards,

Tony

Baconwallah

19-01-2013, 00:46

Ivor, re bodies after two years in the ground: it all depends on the soil. In the wet Lys area, I wouldn't expect to find much soft tissue left after two years. Wounds would only be obvious if there was bone damage.

Tony, Calonne may be a good option after all. The St-Venant hospital was in what one might call a debatable area, a bit 3 Pz Div, a bit SS Germania Regt. Calonne would have been in undisputed possession of 3 Pz, and moreover had a German military dressing station instead of [as well as] a French civvy hospital. I would think that a prisoner for safety reasons would preferably be taken to a military dressing station, unless he was really in a bad way and unlikely to escape, and the French hospital was closer.

As far as I know the British casualties in the St-Venant hospital [which doubled as an orphanage] were brought in by their mates or admitted themselves.

John

dcdl12976

19-01-2013, 06:58

John, thanks for the expanation about communes etc.

Tony, afraid i cant help as much as Jim, John and Ivor all i can do is chuck ideas and suggestions in But i really hope you can find out more info on your uncles death mate.

Cheers

Dave

ivor43

19-01-2013, 10:03

Mornin All.
Tony.Thank you for your post , but it is Jim and John who are the Info/contacts men. Like Dave i can only chuck ideas around. But sometimes you have to look at things from a different angle. Take the French Files.we seem to have assumed that the official 41/42 clearance was complete. But if you ask the question,was it ? then it opens up the ''well maybe it wasn't ''possibility with any later clearances not official.
It is similar with Calonne. We have been there and discussed the possibility of Anthony being buried there. But it wasn't till it was mentioned that the Local Council was responsible for the clearances that the idea '' OH, is Calonne under the same council as St Vennant? '' with the answer Drat no. so another door opens.
We have had the info all along but it only takes a word of phrase to open a link to something else.

John, thanks for the info re bodies i thought so but wasn't sure. So really the only hard evidence you would expect would be as you said bone damage or metallic evidence such as 'dog tags', regimental insignia etc. this, i assume, would have been the object of the British 1946 exercise. So if 'dog tags' had been removed for whatever reason or were not there in the first place. Then Id would be almost impossible unless they carried something personal with their name on.

Tony. while i believe that Calonne is the most likely resting place of Anthony, unless you could get authority to DNA test all the unknowns in Calonne i think the best we can hope for is a '' Buried Near This Spot'' marker.But that would be a great result.

ivor

dcdl12976

19-01-2013, 10:19

Yes the DNA route may be the only way to be certain one way or another if indeed Anthony is buried at Calonne and i dont believe this is going to happen if for no other reason than the cost though there is a precedent in the WW1 mass grave being tested last year.

The only thing that would concern me is that according to the CSM Anthony was not badly hurt when he last saw him on the canal bank this suggests that either he was wounded again afterwards or alternativly the unthinkable that he was one of the murdered. Given the reputation of the Totenkoph division including there later actions there is always that chance.

Cheers now

Dave

Baconwallah

19-01-2013, 11:18

Given the reputation of the Totenkoph division including there later actions there is always that chance.

SS Germania was active in St Venant itself and along the road to Haverskerque. The 2 DLI HQ area belonged exclusively to 3 Pz Div. So the chances that Anthony was murdered on the spot seem to be negligible. But if he was moved to a dressing station west of the 3 Pz Div area, it would be a distinct possibility.

John

ivor43

19-01-2013, 11:27

Hi Dave.
I too doubt that permission would be obtained, even if privately funded, for the DNA tests.
Your second point. we did discuss this some time ago with regard to the RSM being wrong, but he was an experienced soldier and i doubt it. The only concern i had was the neck wound being more severe than thought. When RSM Goddard ask if they could take Anthony with them he was told there was a Field Ambulance operating nearby and they would deal with it.a short time later Goddard spoke to some stretcher bearers presumably telling them where Anthony was, so as a non walking wounded i have very little doubt that he would have been picked up and taken to, as i believe, Calonne.
I read,somewhere, that the German's did not tend to use Local Hospitals, preferring to set up their own facilities in Schools or other large buildings possibly because they were better equipped or maybe even to avoid disruption to the local system.
With regard to the mystery of Anthony's death. Well murder is not out of the question I know of at least one particular nasty piece of SS garbage named, i think it was DIX, who was known to have committed a large number of murders in the area around this time. Sadly he was never to stand trial as he unfortunately got himself killed some time later. So i think this has to have a great deal of consideration. I guess the only way we can know for certain is if autopsies done in 41/42 show bullet wounds to the head.
These files must be somewhere ?.

ivor

dcdl12976

19-01-2013, 11:39

Here is the SS VT Divisions movements for those interestd.

 SS Verfügungsdivision May 1940 (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=147120#p1284455)

The Battle of Aire (9º part).
German Flank Guard Actions During the 1940 French Campaign.
by B. H. Friesen.

Prisoner interrogations strongly indicated that another French armor force was moving west from Bethune. Reconnaissance patrols confirmed this. Hausser believed that this was the time to commit the entire Regiment “Germania.” He directed the regiment to deploy north and south of Auchy and prepare to conduct a movement to contact to the east (see Map 5).

The regiment began moving at 1400 hours and met the enemy tanks at the heights of St. Hilaire. This was the last of the French armor and the force was too small to overpower a motorized regiment supported by the division’s antitank battalion. The tanks quickly lost their momentum and began to withdraw. The Regiment “Germania” pursued them, pushing the enemy back along the entire front in a great sweeping action. The antitank units destroyed many French tanks. The regiment pushed all enemy forces it did not capture or destroy back to the canal by nightfall.

The enemy tried to force penetrations into the division and corps flank in three separate areas. The SS V Division halted and repulsed him on each occasion. The Germans destroyed over 60 armored vehicles and captured close to 4,000 enemy soldiers.

Source: Armor Magazine. Jan – Feb 1994.

On 24 May, regiments of the division succeeded in crossing the La Bassee Canal. The regiment on the right flank captures St. Venant while the reconnaissance detachment advances towards Allouagne. New reconnaissance is sent forward. Two reconnaissance parties had to advance in the direction of Estaires: one through Bethune. The other through St. Venant. While attempting to cross the bridge to the north of Bethune, the first party is subjected to enemy fire. One armored vehicle falls into a ditch, and motorcyclists are forced to dismount and engage the enemy.

The second reconnaissance party, after Passing St. Venant at 2:00 PM in the direction of Merville, was already nearing the latter, when suddenly enemy tanks had cut off its retreat. Only one of the two armored vehicles succeeded in breaking through to the rear. At 5:30 PM this reconnaissance party reports that it is encircled by the enemy. The 2d Company, reinforced by antitank guns, is sent to its rescue.

At the same time the British, moving through Merville in the southwestern direction, executes tank attack against the German infantry. After a somewhat critical situation, the British attack was repulsed. Also the 2d Company, moving north of the Lys Canal, runs against British tanks. Due to the fact that the elements of the divisions retired at nightfall back across the canal, the 2d Company was also compelled to retreat. The encircled reconnaissance party reported by radio that during the night it will attempt to break through.

The next morning the reconnaissance detachment was moved to Ham. A report was received from the encircled party. to the effect that it was unable to break through, but up to 9:30 AM it nevertheless continued to communicate by radio on all enemy movements in the vicinity of Merville. Then the contact ceased. This party was captured by the British.

Source: Motorized Reconnaissance Detachment in Combat in Flanders. By Wim Brandt (SS AA VT CO). Militar Wochenblatt.

Re: Verfügungsdivision May 1940 (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=147120#p1292681)

On May 27, the SS-VT started its attack with the SS Germania to the right and the SS Der Fuhrer to the left; the SS AA pressed forward between the Der Fuhrer's I. and III. Battalions. The densely wooded terrain enabled the British to fight effectively against this attack; also helped by the well-constructed field fortifications.

On the attack's right wing, sharpshooters from the Queen's Own Royal West Kent Regiment wreaked havoc upon the SS Germania; nevertheless the SS unit made subtantial progress and by the end of the day had advanced as far as the town of Haverskesque. Meanwhile the SS Der Fuhrer had pushed the enemy back through the Bois D'Amont reaching the Canal de Nieppe.

On May 28, due to the Nieppe Forest was now situated in a salient vulnerable to isolation and encirclement, the BEF evacuated all its force from the area.

While these SS units saw action in the Nieppe Forest, the SS Deutschland marched on Merville and on May 27, confronted a fresh line of British forces arrayed along the Lys Canal. After softening the enemy positions with artillery fire the III. Battalion launched its assault driving the British out of this area. Later in the day the two others battalions were on the other side of the waterway establishing bridgeheads for other german forces.

Source: SS Das Reich. The history of the of the Second SS Division 1939 -1945. Gregory L. Matson. Chapter 4 The West.

I do have the movements of the SS TK for the dates as well if anyone is interested, most of which is the same as the diary earlier spoken about on here.

Baconwallah

19-01-2013, 12:44

For those interested: here is the statement made post-war by the commander of SS Germania, Karl Demelhuber.

Thanks for the quotes, Dave. Some caution is advisable, though. The second quote, for example, twice mentions British/enemy tanks - there were none, only bren carriers, and they were not the reason for the German retreat to the Aire Canal. There had been French tank detachments along the Aire Canal to protect the bridges leading to St-Venant, but these had all gone by then.

John

dcdl12976

19-01-2013, 13:12

Appreciate that John, a bit like the media today i reckon anything on tracks is called a tank no matter how big or small mainly because the writer knows nothing about armoured vehicles and does even less research before writing.

Cheers

Dave

ivor43

19-01-2013, 13:30

Err hello again.
in my earlier post i mentioned odd words or phrases creating a link. wweellll i just hit myself with one. hmmmm
Now, there are 14 Unknowns in Calonne cemetery, i believe Anthony is one of them.
Accepting RSM's report that Anthony's wounds were not serious so not life threatening. So if he was murdered by the SS, was he the only one. It would be quite interesting to know how many of the 14 have bullet wounds to the head.
Can we get a line on the 41/42 files ?

ivor

teecee1941

19-01-2013, 20:44

Thanks again, Ivor,

Regarding the DNA test. This is not as 'pie in the sky' as it seems. A few weeks ago I watched a TV programme about a WW1 burial site. Ironically, it was one of those nights when every ten minutes the phone rang and I kept losing the thread of the programme. Although I missed a lot of detail, I learned that there was a graveyard in France where they (CWGC I think) were going to exhume the bodies and offer relatives the chance obtain identification by DNA. I'm sure there had been a disappointing response.

I think the DNA test may be possible only because of the time that had elapsed between the deaths and the exhumations. At the moment, this would not be possible for 1940 but I'm sure there will be an opportunity when the time scale allows.

If anyone saw this programme and can enlarge on it, I would be pleased to hear from them.

Tony.

Verrieres

20-01-2013, 01:38

Hello ,
You all have been very busy indeed and now you have me thinking tell me what you think of this
During my research into the field grave lists a lot of people will have wondered why bother as Anthony is unknown so will not feature.The aim of the research has been to secure the buriel place of another 2 DLI casualty who died of wounds on the same day as mentioned Syd Walt died on May 29th he does not feature in any of the known field graves.Would it be fair to assume he has died in a hospital? Following his death he has been taken to the cemetery direct? If the German War Graves Commision has a record of Syd Walt would they have a record of other unknown soldiers buried the same day you see there are no missing unknowns from the Royal Berks or Royal Welch for the 29th May 1940. Whilst I have to check the Royal Artillery Unit present could this be a way forward?

Best

Jim

dcdl12976

20-01-2013, 06:40

Jim, to be honest Anthony may have died in hospital or he may even have been killed where he lay on the canal bank or as stated earlier he could have been one of the murdered in hospital at Calonne. Untill we find some evidence of if he was even moved to hospital i cant see us proving anything sadly.

There is a lot of records from the Royal Berks missing mate (including the war diary for the time which is not shown anywhere on the Wardrobe site). I can only assume it was lost/destroyed/damaged so badly as to be unreadable at some point during the campaign or evacuation.

The trouble with the artillery conection is that you will have to look at not only Brigade but also Divisional artillery units and possibly even Corps level but good luck to you in that. Dont forget mate there may well have been French artillery within range as well.

Cheers

Dave

Verrieres

20-01-2013, 08:29

Hello Dave,
I do not doubt for one minute the task ahead but if Anthony died on that Canal bank he is either one of those `inconnu` in the field graves which I am beginning to doubt by their position in relation to the canal bank,or has been suggested the Germans were good as their word and he died in a hospital. The Artillery etc isnt such a big problem as you may think the units involved are well known and many lie within the cemetery. Anthony has a known date of death,a single day,not an estimated between dates as the majority seem to have which indicates to me as I have said all along there was a witness,the battle on the 29th was over by two days the DLI scattered .The witness whoever he was knew Anthony so he wasnt a soldier from another regiment he was a Durham (or his death details are recorded elsewhere and for some reason being kept from public view? Unlikely as the war crimes feature roasting alive of British PoWs and that is HORRIFIC).There was no doubt to the British that Anthony was dead he wasnt placed on the missing men file he was mard as DEAD again indicating a witness.
Pte Syd Walt is buried in St Venant he died of wounds (confirmed not assumed) on the 29th also presumably recorded by the Germans. If the Germans have two British deaths (Not French Anthony could still talk and I assume he would have spoken and be in British battledress) recorded on the 29th May who is the other? There are no more recorded in the area of the action and more importantly as we do not have as yet the location of his burial have we an unknown headstone with a date of death inscribed 29th May 1940 in one of the local cemeteries? We know already how many unknowns there are but not whats inscribed on their stones.
All ifs buts and what ifs but we can second guess Anthonys demises until eternity but will we find him with this enquiry. If it turns out there isnt a second burial with Syd Walt then that theory is gone but if there is then I for one would be interested in how/who tht could be:-)

Best Wishes

Jim

Jim, to be honest Anthony may have died in hospital or he may even have been killed where he lay on the canal bank or as stated earlier he could have been one of the murdered in hospital at Calonne. Untill we find some evidence of if he was even moved to hospital i cant see us proving anything sadly.

There is a lot of records from the Royal Berks missing mate (including the war diary for the time which is not shown anywhere on the Wardrobe site). I can only assume it was lost/destroyed/damaged so badly as to be unreadable at some point during the campaign or evacuation.

The trouble with the artillery conection is that you will have to look at not only Brigade but also Divisional artillery units and possibly even Corps level but good luck to you in that. Dont forget mate there may well have been French artillery within range as well.

Cheers

Dave

ivor43

20-01-2013, 09:02

good morning all
according to a CWGC search Sid Walt is buried in St Venant Community Cemetery. Plot 3 Row A, Grave 20.
From what we now know, that would seem to indicate that he was in a grave cleared by the St Venant Local Council.
I think it very doubtful that, if he died elsewhere he would have been moved to another location.
Do you have or can you get hold of the list of field graves for the Calonne area. Particularly the School Field i Think this is here we should take a look, especially as we know it was cleared under the 41/42 clearances then the files should have been accepted, therefore they must be kept somewhere. I think we need to know how many unknowns were in that field.
With regard to proof that he was taken to Calonne by the German's.
We have evidence from the Frenchman's book that British wounded were taken there, we have evidence from RSM Goddard that he was told that the field unit, which we believe operated from there, would deal with Anthony, and we have evidence again from RSM that he informed a party of stretcher bearers of Anthony's location.
On the basis of the above i believe we would have '' Reasonable Cause To Believe '' that Anthony was taken there.
Whilst i am not sure, i think it possible that, even on it's own, this just might be sufficient to request an investigation.

ivor

dcdl12976

20-01-2013, 10:40

Jim, All you say is perfectly logical and i believe you may be on the right track mate, your statement "or his death details are recorded elsewhere and for some reason being kept from public view?" it is my belief there is a lot being hidden for some reason including the POSSIBILITY that the war diary for the Royal Berks for this time may be being kept from the public for some reason, this however is conjecture and i have no evidence that this is the case though an e-mail i sent to the Wardrobe before i joined this forum about my Dad has never been replied to (unless it has disapeared into an internet black hole and i have checked the spam folder every day).

Cheers now

Dave

ivor43

20-01-2013, 11:54

hi.
looking further at Calonne i find that there are 3 RWF buried there. Now i was not aware that RWF had been involved in a fire fight in Calonne. so how did they come to be there, it they were wounded in the St Venant/St Floris area.
The only reasonable explanation is, taken there by the German's, this further strengthens my belief that Anthony would also have been taken there. Further backing for '' Reasonable Cause ''.
I seriously believe that we need to have a closer look at this school field.

ivor

dcdl12976

20-01-2013, 12:13

Ivor i think you may be on to something here mate.

The cemetry info says.
The Communal Cemetery surrounds the church which is in the middle of the village. The Commonwealth war graves are in four plots: one containing 7 burials from the Second World War, one containing 13 burials from the Second World War, one containing a single burial from the First World War, and finally a plot containing 3 burials from the Second World War and 1 burial from the First World War.

This makes 23 2nd WW burials yet only 11 are named i would assume that means the other 12 were unidentified when reintered later, given as you say the 3 RWF burials and the fact that the RWF were not involved at Calonne it would be interesting to know morwe about these 12 as i would suspect maybe Anthony was one of them.
Dave.

Edited to add this link http://www.inmemories.com/Cemeteries/calonnesurlalys.htm

So according to this site 2 of the unknowns are Manchester Regiment and 1 was Field Artillery so that still leaves 9 possibilites for Anthony.

Baconwallah

20-01-2013, 13:06

Now i was not aware that RWF had been involved in a fire fight in Calonne. so how did they come to be there, it they were wounded in the St Venant/St Floris area.

ivor

Please bear in mind that on the 24th D Coy took a wrong turning and went southwest instead of northwest to St-Floris. They ran into a German ambush and had to retreat to Calonne before going on to St-Floris. No doubt their casualties were left in Calonne.

John

ivor43

20-01-2013, 21:08

hi all.
John. I must admit it had slipped my mind about D Co. But i not sure that they fit.
The DoD differ one between 25-27 another 28th the 3rd 29th. But i am not sure how it works.
we know that on 23rd 2/5 W.Y. sent a Co to Calonne where they were holding off the German unit, i suspect the same unit that D Co ran into. but would wounded be left in a Civy Hospital in a place under attack.
The German Field Aid Post was not operational until the British pulled out on 26th?. But i suppose it would depend on the severity of the wounds, of course they may have died in the Civy Hospital and been nothing to do with the Aid Post. i'm not sure about this. With the Service numbers would it be possible to link them to a particular Co. That could possibly help. All the record says is 1Btn.

ivor

Baconwallah

20-01-2013, 21:18

The DoD differ one between 25-27 another 28th the 3rd 29th. But i am not sure how it works.

Some probably died of wounds on the following days.

but would wounded be left in a Civy Hospital in a place under attack.

Where else could they leave them, under the circumstances. Calonne was not attacked until the 27th or 28th.

With the Service numbers would it be possible to link them to a particular Co. That could possibly help.

I wish!

John

ivor43

21-01-2013, 07:36

mornin John.
I was trying to fit some known casualties into the picture to reinforce the ''reasonable cause'' argument so it probably was not that important,it would have been nice ,Oh well,,never mind.
Oh and the last part was definitely written with much more hope than expectation.

cheers

ivor

Verrieres

03-02-2013, 20:24

Further from my post regarding Syd Walt also killed/Died on the 29th May 1940 Sgt Major Mclane remembered in an interview that ...Pte Walt was one of two men seriously wounded just prior to the `Everyman for himself` order.Sgt McLane recalled he was wounded in the lower body and streams of blood were visable on his Khaki uniform to Sgt McLane it was obvious he was finished and despite his pleas the poor lad was ignored and had to wait until the stretcher bearers came along with RSM Metcalfe....Pte Walt was in Sgt McLanes platoon at the time but was not a regular member having been sent from elsewhere to shore up the platoon.
Shortly afterwards the order Everyman for himself was given in which the survivors had to run the gauntlet of German fire across an open field.Bearing this in mind I doubt Pte Walt ,now with the stretcher bearers would have made the dash so I am assuming he was found by the Germans and died later?

Best

Jim

Hello ,
You all have been very busy indeed and now you have me thinking tell me what you think of this
During my research into the field grave lists a lot of people will have wondered why bother as Anthony is unknown so will not feature.The aim of the research has been to secure the buriel place of another 2 DLI casualty who died of wounds on the same day as mentioned Syd Walt died on May 29th he does not feature in any of the known field graves.Would it be fair to assume he has died in a hospital? Following his death he has been taken to the cemetery direct? If the German War Graves Commision has a record of Syd Walt would they have a record of other unknown soldiers buried the same day you see there are no missing unknowns from the Royal Berks or Royal Welch for the 29th May 1940. Whilst I have to check the Royal Artillery Unit present could this be a way forward?

Best

Jim

Baconwallah

03-02-2013, 20:32

A very plausible scenario, Jim, for Syd as well as for Anthony.

John

ivor43

03-02-2013, 21:39

Evening all.
as we know that both HQ's were in and close by the St Venant Cemetery. what would be the possibility that they could have been buried directly in the cemetery and therefore not in a field grave.
just a thought.

ivor

Baconwallah

03-02-2013, 21:54

It's certainly a possibility, Ivor. There are currently 40 unidentified bodies buried there, but does that number include men buried in the cemetery at the time of the fighting? We'll probably never know, unless the MoD and CWGC open their books.

John

ivor43

03-02-2013, 22:36

John.
We may, possibly, be able to get a clue from an other incident.
the 7 RWF lads that died on 23rd, at St Floris, were these buried direct in the cemetery. If they are not included in Jim's field graves records then it would suggest that they were not subject to the 41/42 clearances. they were already there. another thought that might support this is,as far as i am aware these are the only burials in St Floris, so it might be assumed that all field burials where taken to St Venant for processing and re burial, except for those already in cemetery's.
with regard to the 40 unknowns in St Venant, it might be interesting to know if Jim's list also has 40 if not then the difference must have already been there.
interesting.

ivor

Baconwallah

04-02-2013, 10:40

A cemetery being available, it was no doubt used with gratitude. But this being true for 1st RWF burying their own does not necessarily make it true for the Germans burying enemies.

Jim´s field grave records, as far as I know, comprise the Bas-Hamel page (from the Rodgers book) and the Robecq mass grave list (from me). They do not represent the complete listing of all field graves in the area, so it is impossible to draw conclusions from them.

John

ivor43

04-02-2013, 15:26

Hi Guys.
Maybe i am being too optimistic again but, surely the field grave lists are just that,lists of persons buried at a specific location.and would correspond to the files prepared at the autopsies.
I would have expected the location of the grave to be reflected in the Title of the file,eg:-
St Venant/Location of Grave(map Ref)/Body No in grave/ Name or unknown.
anything less would not really make much sense.
does a list of the 41/42 clearance files exist, if so can it be accessed.
I realise that 41/42 may not have found All graves and i suspect that some have never been found, but it seems to appear that the people we are interested in could have been in place from May 1940 or should have been identified in 41/42.

ivor

Baconwallah

04-02-2013, 17:52

Ivor, what we have to deal with are lists (the two we know of, anyway) with names and numbers (recorded by the French so not necessarily correct), sometimes confusingly entered twice, or just the word 'inconnu' (unknown, and in that case it's easy). Some names have been struck through and replaced by other names/numbers (again, not necessarily correct), or not, as the case may be, and it is always a pleasant surprise to be able to identify a man from the information provided.

For example, Capitaine Rarker Terver turned out to be Capt Parker-Jervis, 2eme Lieut Edwart Alan was identified as 2/Lt Frank Alan Ewart-James, and Arthur Buck is in the same list twice, but with slightly different numbers (4435503 and the correct 4453403).

Grave locations are generally given as Champ Walle Paul ("in Paul Walle's field") or Cour Heudre Etienne ("in Etienne Heudre's courtyard"), the named farming gentlemen long dead and forgotten. Map references are for sissies.

What makes sense and what we have to work with are often two completely different things. Regrettably.

John

ivor43

04-02-2013, 19:39

John,
my friend, i thought you were going to describe something difficult, we can do difficult standing on our heads. but in this case impossible comes to mind, which may take a bit longer.
Oh, i hope you are not French, as i am becoming very,very Teed Off with certain of our Cross Channel neighbours. So much so that i think we should start a campaign to re instate Madam La Guillotine.
However in my 69 years i have seldom had anything easy and i guess that aint goin to change any time soon.
Anyway,joking apart, thanks for the info, i can appreciate the problem.

ivor

Verrieres

06-02-2013, 00:57

Hello Ivor,
What John states is very true we have two sets of lists but this cannot be all there was as we have found none in the vicinity of the St Venant bridge,unless as you suggested they were buried in the graveyard?(M.Faivre does say that many dead were collected during the battle itself) The number of unknowns at St Venant we know is 40 but we know,and John will correct me if I`m wrong, that the unknowns or inconnus on the Bas Hamel lists number 26 (ish) whilst the large grave according to the CWGC (which they of course do not know about despite it being on their web page!) held 90 graves in total named and unknown,which was a surprise as our lists including unknowns show 64??? Obviously some were identified later.
Add to these the others at St Pol ,Merville and Haverskerque and we have quite a puzzle. M.Faivre recalled there were;-
37 field/temp graves in St Venant
15 in St Floris
and 34 at Robecq.
Final Resting place buriels;-
176 rest at St Venant
9 at Robecq,
22 at Calonne sur Lys,
7 at St Floris
and 40 at Haverskerque
Total 254 not included in this were the unknowns who died in hospitals and those who were fished out of the canal his estimate for a final total was around 300 (St Venant-Robecq Pg 74)
You are right about those co-ordinates though otherwise there would be no structure to the autopsy records...or is that why we struggle to find answers?

Best
Jim

Verrieres

06-02-2013, 01:32

Just had a quick look at CALONNE-SUR-LA-LYS COMMUNAL CEMETERY according to the CWGC there are 11 buriels here in fact there are 25 including two from WW1.
They are laid out as follows ;-S. Barnes (Warrant Officer (Pilot) Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 198 Sqdn. Age: 22 Date of Death: 02/10/1944 Service No: 1430715)
– T. Buckley (Fusilier Royal Welch Fusiliers 1st Bn. Age: 27 Date of Death: between 25/05/1940 and 27/05/1940 Service No: 813905)
– Unknown – Unknown – W. Roberts (Private King's Own Royal Regiment (Lancaster) 6th Bn. Age: 36 Date of Death: 29/05/1940 Service No: 3711938)– E. Humphreys (Fusilier Royal Welch Fusiliers 1st Bn. Age: 21 Date of Death: 28/05/1940 Service No: 4196969)
– J. M. Durston (Lance Corporal Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders 6th Bn. Age: 21 Date of Death: 27/05/1940 Service No: 4274676)

Unknown – Unknown (Machester Rgt) - Unknown (Machester Rgt) - Unknown – Unknown –
E. Pomphrett ( Royal Northumberland Fusiliers 8th Bn. Age: 20 Date of Death: 24/05/1940 Service No: 6915538)- Unknown – Unknown - Unknown (Field Artillery) – J. S. Gay (Royal Scots 1st Bn. Age: 26 Date of Death: 24/05/1940 Service No: 3053470)– C. Sever (Private Manchester Regiment 2nd Bn. Age: 20 Date of Death: between 26/05/1940 and 27/05/1940 Service No: 2571860)
–Unknown – Unknown

T. Rogers (Indian Lieutenant Supply and Transport Corps Date of Death: 13/02/1915) - D. Griffiths ( Serjeant Royal Welch Fusiliers 1st Bn. Age: 27 Date of Death: 29/05/1940 Service No: 4188082)- Unknown - Unknown

R. C. Doidge (Captain Lancashire Fusiliers 17th Bn. Age: 26 Date of Death: 02/03/1916)
According to M.Faivre 5 men died at the hospital here and were buried as unknowns after their tags were removed.

Best

Jim

Baconwallah

06-02-2013, 01:55

Just had a quick look at CALONNE-SUR-LA-LYS COMMUNAL CEMETERY according to the CWGC there are 11 buriels here in fact there are 25 including two from WW1.

You're both right, Jim. There are 11 identified casualties (listed on the CWGC website) but 25 including the unknowns.

John

Verrieres

06-02-2013, 08:24

You're both right, Jim. There are 11 identified casualties (listed on the CWGC website) but 25 including the unknowns.

John

Hello John
I was`nt disputing them this time,just stating the actual total for anyone who is interested.:-). The CWGC are very forth coming about this one which backs up M.Faivres reports to a certain extent.

Historical InformationDuring the withdrawal of the British Expeditionary Force to Dunkirk in May 1940, there was heavy fighting in the area around Calonne-sur-la-Lys, and most of the inhabitants left the area. The school was used by the Germans as an aid post, and British soldiers who died at Calonne, either in battle or of wounds while prisoners, were buried by the Germans in the field behind the school. In 1942 the local people moved these graves into the communal cemetery, but in the meantime the rough grave markers had in many instances become illegible. The identity discs and personal possessions had mostly been removed before burial, so that in 1942 few of the dead could be identified.

The communal cemetery now contains 23 Commonwealth burials of the Second World War, 14 of which are unidentified. There are also two burials from the First World War. CWGC Debt of Honour

Best

Jim

ivor43

06-02-2013, 11:08

Morning.
Jim welcome to Calonne.
I have been here for a while. So if i may explain what i think is going on here.
First, the German Field Post could not have been in operation prior to the 26 th at the earliest, therefore some of these deaths must have taken place in the Local Hospital which may, possibly, have resulted in burial in the local cemetery.
Second. there are No deaths after the 29th.
third. Is there some significance to 29th. There are 2 deaths of Known men on his date, and Anthony if he had been taken there.
fourth. It is reported that 5 men had their ID Tags removed in Hospital. By Medical Staff ? would seem unlikely.

So what is going on.
The following possibility ?
By 29th the German Front line has advanced well beyond the Lys and the Field Post is required to move. but there is a problem, there are a number of British wounded which would need transportation.
We know that there was a particularly nasty piece of murdering S.S. Trash operating in the area. Did he solve the problem. and remove the ID at the same time.
As i said previously, i think we need to look at the situation here in a whole lot more detail, if possible, as i still think this is where we will find the answer.

Oh and why am i not surprised that CWGC are more forthcoming about Calonne than St Venant. Sigh, may be i am just a cynical old sod.

ivor

ivor43

06-02-2013, 20:43

hi.
Looking at the graves in Robecq.
1 W Yorks DoD 21/5/40.
8 RWF DoD between 23rd and 25th/5/40
It would appear that these are original 1940 burials, not the result of 41/42 clearances.

ivor

ivor43

07-02-2013, 00:48

hi again.
Jim, in your post ( 493 ) you quote M. Faivre referring to temp/field graves and FINAL RESTING PLACE BURIALS.
Now if, as i believe, the 9 at Robecq and the 7 at St Floris are original 1940 Burials, then does M. Faivre mean there are 176 1940 burials in St Venant and 22 in Calonne. while that may make some sense for St Venant it does not really fit Calonne. Very Odd....

Ivor

Baconwallah

07-02-2013, 00:55

My database shows 22 burials of May 1940 casualties in Calonne-sur-la-Lys, 8 of whom could be identified.

In St Venant I have 175 records (probably missed one).

John