Staying in the EU

[peterlansley]

It seems to me it's the old adage of dammed if we do and dammed if we don't. Parliament should come clean over the costs for or against,otherwise how are we mushrooms going to vote in a referendum?

[ivor43]

Hi Guy's.
First. John, i fully agree with you re the Multi Nationals, and with regard to this deal with the US, if it is similar to the recently signed Asia, Pacific Deal then that might be the U.S controlling EU trade. which should be avoided at all costs.
Now, i have been doing some digging. How many of you have come across.. E.F.T.A. ( ref...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...de_Association ) this came as a bit of a surprise to me. although i was aware of it i did not know that UK was a founder member in 1960. only leaving to join the EU in 1973. So if we pull out of Europe are we going to snuggle up with EFTA instead.
It appears that the formation of EFTA coincided with our reducing influence in the Commonwealth. so at No Time in the recent past has the UK really been in a ''stand alone '' position. Which raises the Question.. ''Can We as, a now very much minor manufacturing country, be able to Stand Alone''. bear in mind that ''The Special Relationship'' between the UK and the US may no longer be in place. To me this could be the ''Stuff of Nightmares''.
I think there has to be a lot of very serious Questions asked of our politicians with regard to ''what happens, where do we go. after EU'' as the consequences for us mushrooms could be very costly..


ivor

[jungle1810]

Hello all,
As a point of interest the first family Cameron interviewed, had a mother and 10 children. Now if this is counted as one family how about the fact that if 20,000 similar families are let into the U K we will have 200,000 children 20.000 mothers and if one father is allowed to join them we will have 20,000 fathers, now if we allow the fathers to bring in 3 wives this total comes to 280,000 people. I have not heard what Obama thinks of this fact which is just as well because the U S Senate does not ask the British public to comment on how the U S of A is run, the American policy which led to the start of the THE AMERICAN WAR OF INDEPENDENCE is "No representation no taxes" the The E U are running two parliaments Brussels and Strasbourg and move all the kit and caboodle every time they move offices. Now for the Common Agriculture Market the C A P takes 150 billion Euros to run. Of this princely sum France gets 17% The U K gets 7% as a point of interest the total Eu wage bill comes out of this pot as well not bad for an UNELECTED ASSEMBLY, the U K contribute 55 million EUROS a day to be able to be PARTNER OF THE E U. The E U has never had it's statements of accounts written off in 20 years this is an illegal form of accountancy. Now we come to the reason why the EUROPHILES in the U K Parliament like the E U. The E U cover over 78% of our laws and way of life, so taking this to it,s logical conclusion it means that our whole form of governance from The house of commons and the upper house only do 22% of the work that is done on the U K.s behalf but still get the same money (WAGES) for a lot less work. The U K has the second largest form of government in the world beaten only by CHINA a country of some 1,2 billion people. We have over 800 in the house of Lords and only about 380 seats
The house of commons have 350, Wales have 30 seats in the Welsh Senate for some 3 million people, so how about if we stay in E U cut all our parliamentarians by 78% with a suitable reduction in their wages If any trouble occurs in Germany or France why can they alter or stop it with out a full E U meeting to ratify their actions which thee U K cannot manage to do. PRO BONO PUBLICO, regards R B D

[ivor43]

Hi.
Don, an interesting post but you are doing the same as the politicians. you quote a possible figure of about 250.000 Dependents. I am ignoring the wage earners for the minute. This is a lot of potential for the need for financial support.But you are not taking into account the 150.000 Emigrating from the UK per year, or the roughly 500,000 deaths per year which in recent years has Exceeded the Birth Rate. Immigration (legal) runs at about 250,000 so the actual population level doesn't vary a great deal. The Problem is Jobs. the Unemployed figure for 3 months to Oct 15 is 1.71 Million.with probably 500,000 job vacancies. it does not need a spin doctor to realize that at least 1,000,000 people are Not going to get a job.a large Number of the Unemployed would be Worse off financially if they took a job, which is totally ridiculous, But these Low Paid Jobs will be filled by your 20,000 migrants because the wage level for them is good.
But this is Not the Fault of the EU. History tells us the real fault. Don , you must be aware of what happened in the 1950's. as a result of WW2 the Male population of the UK was not sufficient to fill the jobs so what did the Government do.They encouraged Immigration from the Caribbean. this is where the problem began. these people would work for a lot less than UK workers. because of their life style, they were even able to send money home. This culture of Low wages has continued ever since especially in the Railway industry and the NHS.
which is one of the reasons that the NHS is in difficulties.

ivor

[jungle1810]

Hello every one and Ivor,
You are right about the West Indian migrants. The men were wanted to drive the buses the distaff side were required to work in our N H S service. These people had a hard initiation to the U K. Now Turkey was expected to be able to join the E U in a decade or so. The population of Turkey is 72,907, 000 people. Turkey as a land mass is also according to 2 sources 95 % or even 87% as being in Asia. Turkey is 99% Muslim.Soon the most wisest teacher will be unable to sort out where Asia begins and Europe ends. Can we expect to see Russia relocated as a European classification soon.?????
Regards to all R B D

[ivor43]

Hi all.
Err, Don. have a look at this map. http://www.diercke.com/kartenansicht...469&kartennr=1
prior to 1914 Russia was part of Europe. I was aware of this as at one time before we sold our house i collected old School Atlases.Fascinating things. especially the early ones..


ivor

[jones20]

Think the special relationship will still exist only because the yanks know our troops are the only ones in NATO they can rely on

[jones20]

I am still undecided on this thinking that I would watch the programmes coming on TV so I sat down to watch the PM on sky last night I listen to what I could when the sky presenter and Cameron insisted on talking over each other then waited for their chosen audience to ask their questions what a waste of time.One of the questions asked was would Boris Johnson make a good PM can someone tell me what's that got to do with staying in or out of eu followed by another question by a lady about bursaries again what's that got to do with the Eu.What a waste of time

[steve bird]

Hello all, okay here are my little reasons for leaving the EU but I think the remains will win the day thanks to large numbers of migrants we have long waiting time to see a doctor I think MPs jump the queue we have long waiting for our hospitals our MPs jump the queue our schools are at bursting point our children and grandchildrens education is suffering long term our MPs children jump the queue and go private we send far to much money in family allowance abroard why will it be hard out side the EU well yes can or will we survive out side the EU yes I think we will have a better future out side the EU our children and grandchildren will have better futures out side the EU at the end of a hard transition just saying is all thanks

[Gwyn Nicholas]

I have listened to many of the arguments, from politicians, trade experts, fiscal experts to small business owners and farmers. They all have views that they see as being the result of a Brexit. They differ, so who is right, who is wrong? One thing is clear, the EU has become an institution that is unregulated, unconstitutional, overbearing and autocratic. They are unwilling to change/reform and dismiss every effort to get them to do so.

This "Powerhouse" is not what the original plan for European unity was about, because it has lost its way by having literally no one to answer to. In short, it has become a dictatorship albeit by a group rather than an single individual. If we are truly a Democracy, the EU should not exist in its current form and the sooner it is either reformed or disbanded the better.

I hear the argument, that somehow we will be the pariahs of Europe if we leave. I don't believe it. Indeed I believe that should we vote to leave, the French and indeed the Germans (who are already making noises) will seek their own referendum. Our leaving whilst causing us some discomfort in the short term, may lead to the reform of the EU/common market, that in principle, I am in favour of. If not, it may just be the end of it altogether.

Of all the problems and reasons for in and out, for me it is a question of returning to a proper democracy, where those who govern whether here or in the EU, are answerable to the people.