saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

[dcdl12976]

Jim my belief is this is deliberate obstruction by the authorities and has been all along.

[Verrieres]

Update time again.

Three liberation reports identified
Liberation No 1587 L/Cpl Edward
J Watson 2nd Durham Light Infantry,Captured St Venant May 1940 Escaped from St Venant 1940???? File WO208/3334
Liberation No 1058 Lt Col R B Y Simpson Durham Light Infantry File WO208/3332
Liberation No 588 Lt M Farr Durham Light Infantry File WO208/3331 (this I
presume was the original reference)

I`m afraid the files relating to all 3 2DLI are sealed the
range of files/reports available are WO 208\3298 - WO 208\3327 and then from WO
208\3348 -WO 208\3352 those between 208/3328-208/3347 are not available.19 files not
available the 3 identified reports amongst them

Three Gallantry awards for actions at St Venant identified
Captain Stallard DSO
Lt Colonel Simpson DSO
CSM Qualtrough MC

No citations available awards simply state `For Services Prior to Capture`

Lt Farrs personal papers found! He wrote a book (unpublished?) entitled `Wine and War`
First chapter deals with the Dyle and subsequent capture at St Venant no mention of Anthony by name but heres a summary of the St Venant section;-

Lt Farr was Hq company, signals officer his signals equipment was lost at the
Dyle so he took his place..in the barn with the other riflemen ..no orders to
withdraw were received from Brigade the men were forced back to the bank of the
canal where the Germans had infiltrated to the far bank and proceeded to fire
into the DLI`s backs. Lt Farr gathered seven men from HQ and attempted to get
them across the canal but they were under fire from all sides in an attempt to
clear a way through they pushed a truck into the canal before he decided to
turn back with his signals sergeant and take out the snipers. Rushing towards
the ruins of a building on the canal bank the building was hit by a shell and
destroyed the whole area was now under heavy machine gun fire Lt Farr dropped
into a hollow on the canal bank here he remained for several hours lying
undetected by the canal bank watching as the German armour rolled on by he
wrote "If I had detonators I could have destroyed some from my position I felt
so helpless if only I could have stopped the swines!" he went on "My friends
and men I had trained with were blown up before my very eyes" "I should have
done better I should have killed more but always the laughing echo returned ..
you fool with what? Damn it what could you have done!"

Then it was over a German soldier discovered him he was surrounded by the Hun
"all pointing their machine guns at me and cocking their rifles" Farr was
dragged off to the German Hq which was set up nearby and was put before an SS
officer with a large scar across his face the soldiers who had captured him
were "deaths head hussars" SS Storm troopers "I knew nothing I said nothing not
even rank and number I was very bewildered but most of all I was angry, sad and
angry" Farr was taken to a Barn where he found a discarded Belgian blanket
soon he was marched off the SS Officer sneered "We will be in London in 10days"

Farr certainly had no love for the Germans up until his imprisonment in Colditz and refers
to the SS as "murderous swine". He also witnessed the shooting of a 8th DLI officer
in a Camp by a guard too whom he refers to as having the satisfaction of seeing
him hang six years later.



In respect of Colonel Simpson I also found reference to a MiD and on the bottom of the recommendation is
marked `secret` there was a note that this officer was in touch with the war Office by
`secret` means and any references to the award must not include those details.


That's all at present the search for the next piece of the puzzle continues.

Best Wishes

Jim

[ivor43]

Thanks Jim.
Very interesting, i wonder does the files being '' sealed '' refer to the 75 year rule or are they sealed permanently ?. the second puzzle is, why would a MID be classified ' secret ' very odd. This would, to me at least, confirm my suspicion that there is a ' cover up '.
but thinking about this, if there is, then there is a distinct possibility that the Frenchman also found it in the Rodgers investigation. is this why he has become non cooperative in our case. he has been effectively silenced. It might explain why files which should be open to the public are in private hands with no access.

ivor

[dcdl12976]

Jim, great stuff mate.

As Ivor i still have many reservations about the Sealed files i assume from " those between 208/3328-208/3347 are not .19 reports not
available the 3 identified files amongst them" i assume this means the files are NOT Mi9 files, however logic says that the whole series MUST be in some way connected to and/or hold information (maybe) names that involves SOE or one of the MI departments. It is possible though that these files have just not been checked and indexed for release yet (as i said in another post thousands of files are waiting to be processed round the country)

"In respect of Colonel Simpson I also found reference to a MiD and on the bottom of the recommendation is
marked `secret` there was a note that this officer was in touch with the war Office by
`secret` means and any references to the award must not include those details."

This reinforces my belief there is an MI dept involved somewhere here, assuming that Col Simpson was a POW then it may relate to him being in touch by radio or an underground organisation from the camp so may have been providing intelligence via the war office to MI or SOE, shades of Hogans heroes or Allo Allo you may think well maybe but things like that did happen.
Is there any info on where Col Simpson was held in a POW camp (if indeed he was) ? as this may help to explain the secret.

From Farrs information it would appear that he would have been on the canal bank with Anthony and so would have been captured at the same time could it therefore have been he who last saw Anthony alive before he was taken off to an officers Oflag and Anthony taken to an enlisted camp (or otherwise dealt with) after Farr had gone.
From the description the SS involved were certainly Totenkopfverbande

Whilst the officer in the book could have been almost anyone it may well have been Fritz Knöchlein (May 27, 1911, Munich – January 28, 1949) was an SS-Obersturmbannführer (Lieutenant Colonel) during the Second World War who was subsequently convicted and executed for war crimes. It was in his capacity as a company commander that he gained notoriety, being responsible for the 27 May 1940 massacre of British prisoners-of-war at Le Paradis in the Pas-de-Calais. Ninety-nine members of the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Norfolk Regiment who had surrendered to his unit in a cattle shed were stood in front of the barn wall, and Knöchlein ordered two machine-guns turned on them, followed by bayoneting and shooting any apparent survivors.

At his war crimes trial Knöchlein claimed that he was tortured during his detention in the "London Cage", which the head of the "London Cage" Alexander Scotland dismisses in London Cage as a "lame allegation". According to Knöchlein, he was stripped, deprived of sleep, kicked by guards and starved. He said that he was compelled to walk in a tight circle for four hours. After complaining to Alexander Scotland, Knöchlein alleges that he was doused in cold water, pushed down stairs, and beaten. He claimed he was forced to stand beside a hot gas stove before being showered with cold water. He claimed that he and another prisoner were forced to run in circles while carrying heavy logs. "Since these tortures were the consequences of my personal complaint, any further complaint would have been senseless," Knöchlein wrote. "One of the guards who had a somewhat humane feeling advised me not to make any more complaints, otherwise things would turn worse for me." Other prisoners, he alleged, were beaten until they begged to be killed, while some were told that they could be made to disappear.

Scotland said in his memoirs that Knöchlein was not interrogated at all at the London Cage because there was sufficient evidence to convict him, and he wanted "no confusing documents with the aid of which he might try to wriggle from the net." During his last nights at the cage, Scotland states, Knöchlein "began shrieking in a half-crazed fashion, so that the guards at the London Cage were at a loss to know how to control him. At one stage the local police called in to enquire why such a din was emanating from sedate Kensington Palace Gardens.

Upon being found guilty, Knöchlein applied for clemency, arguing that he had a wife and four children that depended on him, but was sentenced to be hanged, a verdict that was carried out on January 28, 1949.

So once again we have a reference to MI9

My understanding is that although the files we want may not be actual MI9 files if they contain reference to MI9 or names of any one connected to or detained in that department then they come under the ruling i have stated elsewhere in this thread.

Cheers now

Dave

[ivor43]

Morning all.

In view of this info it has changed my thinking to a degree. First, from the reports it gave me the impression that the prisoners were marched off into captivity straight away. but this may not have been the case.there were so many men captured at St Venant that to have small groups of men marching across country would have been impossible. Would the groups not have been taken to a holding area away from the front line and held there maybe for a few days. this also may explain something else. We know that there were several British men in the hospital at Calonne,maybe including Anthony, if they were fit enough then would they have been expected to march with the rest, if not, well we know a number of men were shot on 29 may. could this have been the day when the long march started ?
If L/Cpl Watson escaped could he have been the witness that reported Anthony's murder.

now
I`m afraid the files relating to all 3 2DLI are sealed the
range of reports available are WO 208\3298 - WO 208\3327 and then from WO
208\3348 -WO 208\3352 those between 208/3328-208/3347 are not .19 reports not
available the 3 identified files amongst them

i think there is a typo here i think is should read
'' are not. 19 reports etc''
it might be interesting to know if the other 16 refer to other units at St Venant. would this be possible. i have a suspicion they might.

ivor

[Verrieres]

Hello,

Just a little clarification

The files are all MI 19 Files dealing with Liberation Reports etc.

Sorry there are 19 Files unavailable from the range of reference numbers now held at the NA not 19 solitary reports

They are sealed and although the Index states the reports are within these files a Freedom of Information request has ,in the case of Farrs report, been met with a `Sorry we do not have that one Please contact the Ministry of Defence`

Simpson was the DLI Commanding officer in 1945 he was in Camp OFLAG 12B in Bavaria on 14th April 1945 the Germans attempted to force march the occupants away from the advancing Allies a short distance from the Camp the long columns of bedraggled PoWs were mistaken by the USAAF for German Troops Fourteen British officers were killed and 46 were wounded. The camp was liberated two days later with no transport available the British contingent marched back to their own lines.

The MiD was awarded for `Services whilst a PoW` the DSOs and MC for `Services Prior to Capture`

Dave I too believe that Farr must have been on that Canal Bank at the same time as Anthony as he recalls been there for hours afterwards.

Ivor.It would indeed be interesting to see what the other 16 files relate too I will set about trying to find out and let you know.



Jim

[dcdl12976]

Hi Jim thanks for that, if the files are Mi9 then as i understand it they are sealed for 100 years from the date of the youngest file related or mentioned in them and may only be accesed in the first place by the individual mentioned in them if still alive after then the individual may give permission for others to see them (this is on the instructions of the Lord Chamberlain apparently).I would guess it is easier for the clerk to say we dont have the file than to explain the rules.

This would apply I think to he info about the MID secret information as well.

Cheers

Dave

[Verrieres]

Hi Jim thanks for that, if the files are Mi9 then as i understand it they are sealed for 100 years from the date of the youngest file related or mentioned in them and may only be accesed in the first place by the individual mentioned in them if still alive after then the individual may give permission for others to see them (this is on the instructions of the Lord Chamberlain apparently).I would guess it is easier for the clerk to say we dont have the file than to explain the rules.

This would apply I think to he info about the MID secret information as well.

Cheers

Dave

Cheers Dave
Unfortunately that 100 year rule appears very flexible as all of the WO 208 series are MI 19 Files and they are open? From what I can gather some files have in addition to the reports held within have appendices with `other` detailed information and this may be the reason they are `locked`.
The MiD is freely available from the NA for £3.50 I have had my copy for a few years when for a short period the NA were digitising records free of charge,something which was halted without notice a short while after .They now charge for everything unless you can visit in person.
Strangely enough I have read loads of files relating to the murder of British servicemen,read files naming possible collaborators so what is hiding in our files that there seems to be a blanket ban on all of them? Puzzled!

Jim

[dcdl12976]

Yes Jim I agree, when you could download the files for free I got a full set of the ones relating to Laurence of Arabia (including his dental records) over 500 pages if I remember correctly.

Apparently the MI files are like a pyramid and ones with any reference names or even just file reference) to a locked one are also locked, reasons can be many and include names of living agents, unsolved war crimes an possible litigation from living persons who may claim torture or treatment in breech of the Geneva convention etc don't forget we are dealing with spys here and for good reason MI are naturally a secretive organisation.

Cheers

Dave

[ivor43]

Morning all.
Well, if these files are on a 100 year seal then it is probably 'Game Over ' as we are not going to get any further.
But, this has got me wondering. What is the difference between our quest and the Rodgers case. First it appears to have had a lot more publicity. Second , in the beginning they also drew a blank from authorities it wasn't until they were put in contact with the Frenchman that they had any success. Why? Because the Frenchman has 'the Files ', which the u.k. do not accept.
So,although not accepted, was the evidence in the French files sufficient for CWGC to allow the Marker, which is a ''somewhere near this spot' i think. Or, because of the publicity involved, was it allowed as a means of getting the Frenchman and his files out of the picture.
Now, in our case, for reasons best known to himself,the Frenchman will not help Tony.
But what evidence of our own do we have. We have evidence from the RSM that Anthony was somewhere along the Canal Bank. although not exactly where, still a fairly specific location. we know that a German Field Ambulance was operating in the area,and a field hospital was located at Calonne.
Now i believe it is reasonable to assume that Anthony would have been taken to this hospital. on the 27th.
On the 29th it is recorded he is dead.very specific.So it would seem to me that whoever witnessed the death,Must Have Been in the Same Place. so,surely, when the death was reported then the location would also have been reported.
I have the impression that the confirmation of the DoD was given before 46, so would not have been in a Liberation report. could L/Cpl Watson who escaped have been the one who reported it.
Somewhere there must be, i believe, a report with the location of Anthony's death probably with the circumstances surrounding it. But Where?


ivor