saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

**Baconwallah** · 28-07-2012, 19:50

Ivor, in an earlier post I already stated that the temporary Pigeau No.3 bridge built by the French engineers was 159.5 metres long. That carried it across the canal, the river bed and the island. Measure the distance in Google Earth if you do not believe me.

The river at this point is frequently referred to in French accounts as the northern arm of the Lys canal. Both arms had locks. The northern lock does not exist any more, it has been replaced by a weir.

So far we have not found anything not in accordance with the existing records.

John

**chow** · 28-07-2012, 20:24

Ivor.
My thoughts were purely in mind of the first post,
the thread seems to have deviated a bit from the mission.
I f you are now looking into Mr Harrison then that should be kept separate..
The post by verrieres seems the way to go, with out other information at the moment.

steve.

**jungle1810** · 28-07-2012, 21:12

Hello all,
Not wishing to muddy the waters , I have found an old e mail dated 01/01/2006, I had a sent a query to the Wilfred Owen Association and the last paragraph comments on the church at St Floris where Sassoon was in action 7th July 1918 (25th R W F) our cap badge is engraved on the church wall in St Floris Church ( as one would expect the word was spelt WELSH ) The e mail goes on to say a sad and moving sight is the grave of Lt Col Garnett 's son who was killed in action in a Bren gun carrier by the church on the 23rd of May 1940 the victim of a German anti tank gun sited just around the corner of the church A co-incidence but another face and time and place re the retreat to Dunkirk
truth is some times stranger than fiction.
Regards R B D aka jungle1810

**Verrieres** · 28-07-2012, 22:35

Originally Posted by Baconwallah

I have it (and sent it to you). But I think it will help the discussion if we clearly identify out sources each time we come up with something.

Re your original post: you said "Now heres the killer question who were the others in the grave."

The only grave I see mentioned here is the one with six Germans. The British dead mentioned are inside the house, in Bren carriers or ditches, and could evidently be inspected and i several cases identified by the locals.

The presence of Tony's uncle here is extremely unlikely as the scene described is north of the St Venant bridge, about a hundred metres north of it. That is not consistent with Goddard making him comfortable on the canal bank. Unless he either crawled that way from where DLI HQ was, or was carried towards the front line by someone else. Can't see that happening myself.

John

Hello John,

Sorry I would have added the source and I acknowledge the fact that it was indeed your good self who sent me the document which is why I presumed.wrongly that having read the document you would have been aware of its contents.The information was posted for Ivors attention re-Harrison but I will quote sources when available.Again I apologise.
The Grave is not the German one but the British who were buried in their trench by this Frenchmans father only three are named in the account whilst there are at least eleven in total.It would be Good if we could identify if all these were `known` or were some `innconnu`.
I do not know if this will have a bearing on anything but I will attempt to identify the Companies these DLI at Haversque came from.One casualty Captain Chipchase was recorded just prior to the move at St Venant as detached serving with 2nd Division in what role I do not know.On a similar topic Capt Townsend was seconded to 6th Brigade(May 1940) Hq when he returned to 2 DLI is not recorded. (Source Diaries and Reg History National Archives WO 197 Series France and Belguim 1939-40 )

best
Jim

**Baconwallah** · 28-07-2012, 23:12

I was aware of the contents, Jim, and recognised the quote. I just wanted to draw your attention to adding sources to quotes or statements to make the information accessible to others. We should try to do that from now on, I believe.

You are right and I misunderstood your "the grave" remark. But from the description of the bodies I do not think any of them could have been Tony's uncle - apart from being on the wrong side of the Lys.

John

**ivor43** · 28-07-2012, 23:52

Brian.
That confirms the RWF account. When they were approaching St Floris they had 2 carriers leading as they came around a left hand bend they came under fire. One was burned out and I think it named those killed. Good confirmation of the date, always good.
Chow.
Noted mate, but be sure of one thing we are still working to the same end. However this is not going to be a straight road, I never believed it would. But what I am trying to do is eliminate or confirm the evidence of Major Townsend who was an eye witness, and has made a statement that conflicts with other accounts. This has to be sorted. I do not believe we have any other option.

ivor

**Verrieres** · 29-07-2012, 02:05

I was aware of the contents, Jim, and recognised the quote. I just wanted to draw your attention to adding sources to quotes or statements to make the information accessible to others. We should try to do that from now on, I believe.

You are right and I misunderstood your "the grave" remark. But from the description of the bodies I do not think any of them could have been Tony's uncle - apart from being on the wrong side of the Lys.

Hello John,
Agreed sources to be named no problem.My idea regarding the Grave being a possibility was based on on the following sentence

By this time the armoured cars were almost at the cafe and although I waved to the men inside I realised they could no more come out than I could go to them across an open space..Source;- Townsend Diary May 27th 1940

With reference to the Cafe in this sentence and the reference to Monsieur Berthe ;-Source Part V St Venant-Robeqc Pg 70

...when Monsieur Berthe returned home to his cafe...

I had hoped that this could have been one of the Field graves from the last stand? However and forgive my ignorance on such matters if you are stating that Colonel Harrison was killed on the other side of the Canal that may or may not rule this out but I am not yet convinced.If I have got this right and this is my simplyfied version Lt Colonel Harrison and Clough Taylor were the last to cross ,Clough Taylor was wounded? The Lt Colonel waited until he was sure Clough Taylor was safe ordered the Bridge destroyed but it could`nt be as there were no RE ? The Lt Colonel turned to make his way up the Haversque Road ? A German Tank appeared opened fire and the Good Lt Colonel was killed? If this is basically right I have a few questions
.How far away was the Colonel when he was killed was he just across the Bridge ?
Was he well up the road?
How was he found in a trench near M.Berthe cafe.If he was machine gunned on the road ? Presumably if he had been in the trench originally then the tank would have been unlikely to have harmed him in fact I believe the RWF Doctor Lundie? escaped using the trenches and ditches?
What I am really saying is this..is there any possibility that the Lt Colonel was killed either at the very end of the bridge or actually on it? The advancing Germans who I assume would normally run down the dead/wounded ahead of them rather than hold up an advance for any humanitarian reasons would I believe realise through his rank badges that this body in front of them was a Lieutenant Colonel in the British Army and maybe just maybe drag him just back far enough out of the range of the British Soldiers still firing at them from the building on the opposite end of the bridge (Pg 69 St Venant-Robeqc M.Faivre) to quickly search the body then throw him into the trench near the cafe?...I know we might never know but is it possible or has my limited to non existance knowledge of all matters RWF missed some glaring fact.

Best

Jim

**Baconwallah** · 29-07-2012, 02:25

Jim, the café meant by Townsend was at the junction of Rue des Amusoires and Rue de Saint-Floris/Rue Jean Moulin.

Re the death of Col Harrison, this is the account in Y Ddraig Goch [1954], based on eye witness accounts:

"By this time, the DLI Headquarters appeared to have fallen, and whilst the thinning out process was
occurring across the bridge, the enemy tanks were advancing towards the bridge, down the road past the
cemetery, firing at almost point blank range. As the men had come back in twos and threes they had been
collected by the second-in-command, formed into sections under an NCO, pushed into a roadside ditch,
and set off on a long crawl across the fire-swept ground towards the rearward RV given by the Brigade
Commander.
When all were clear of the bridge, the enemy tanks had nearly reached the far end. The CO now gave
orders for the bridge to be blown up and it was then discovered that the sapper demolition party
were no longer present. They had been seen about fifteen minutes earlier, but whether they had
withdrawn or become casualties is not known. The one certain thing was that the bridge could not now
be destroyed and that there was nothing to prevent the enemy tanks from following the remnant of the
Battalion over the canal.
The leading enemy tank showed a strange hesitancy about crossing the bridge. Possibly the crew
suspected a trap or perhaps were incredulous of the fact that the defenders now had no anti-tank weapons
with which to oppose them. In any case, there was an appreciable pause which enabled another section
to be despatched down the ditch. At last, the leading tank rolled forward across the bridge. Every weapon
which the enemy could bring to bear was now firing on the cluster of cottages. The tanks, once over the
canal, made short work of the few remaining defenders. In the last flurry of disorganised fighting,
Colonel Harrison met his death by a burst of machine-gun fire, fired at short range. Soon the enemy tanks
were deployed on either flank, going forward across the open ground."

In short, he was killed while attempting to withdraw down a roadside ditch from the cluster of cottages at the northern end of the bridge.

Lt Lundie was captured at his Aid Post [info also from YDG].

Northern France at the time was littered with roadside café's. The one Townsend described was, according to M Faivre, owned by M Taverne.

John

**ivor43** · 29-07-2012, 11:49

Jim
Whilst this may rule out the Col, it by no means rules out Anthony who we know was to the south.

ivor

**Verrieres** · 29-07-2012, 11:55

Thank you John, for that much more detailed report on Harrisons demise he was indeed,it appears,on the opposite bank.Now another question ? Are we sure that the RSM and Anthony Corkhill were not also on that side of the canal?

A Verbal message came up that Colonel Harrison of the RWF whose HQ was a little further along the bank towards the bridge,wanted Colonel Simpson.As the CO had recently been to the RWF`s HQ talking to Bde Hq by wireless and not knowing exactly where he was I crawled back to see Colonel Harrison.He said the position was untenable and that he was taking what men he could to form a bridgehead.I was to bring back any men I could.
I sent Lyster-Todd and some men back at once and crawled forward as far as the cemetery.Here I found CSM Burkitt and Pte Worthy...source Capt Townsends diary

In earlier posts we learned that RSM Goddard attempted to get his transport across the bridge according to M.Faivre St Venant-Robeqc it was like this

Sergeant Major Goddard desperately tried to move the battalion headquarters vehicles and lead them towards the bridge whilst others errected barracades on the road.The vehicles were hit and burst into flames..

The interesting point or phrase here is ` lead them towards the bridge ..` he led,from the front was he in the lead vehicle did he actually make it across the bridge...not according to M.Faivres report as he said `the vehicles were hit and burst into flames` now heres my question ...All of the vehicles burst into flames or some of them it does not state which.From my tiny knowledge of Tank warfare and what happened later in the war at Villiers Bocage..if you have a column of vehicles by taking out the front and back vehicles you have the remainder trapped to pick off at will,these roads in 1940 would have been narrow the surrounding countryside was boggy and wet (Sgt-Major McLanes escape to the Canal across boggy ground).If this were done then the RSM who was `leading`his vehicles would have been one of the first casualties..we know he was not do we then summise that the vehicles were hit by indescriminate artillery fire which set onfire some but not all of the vehicles..those at the rear of the RSM..preventing him from going anywhere but across the bridge.Burning vehicles on a narrow road form one hell of a barrier! Would the RSM have ordered the vehicles onward and returned to his HQ..possibly but doubtful as his escape route back is blocked by burning vehicles more likely a scenario is he is the RSM a long serving soldier of good stature admired by officers and men alike he has been ordered to get his vehicles away(He has not decided this on his own iniative!) hes lost some but hes going to do his damn best to carry out his orders..and he does he proceeds across the bridge. A little more from Capt Townsends diary

The RSM moved some of the vehicles from HQ back across the bridge

According to Townsend he actually moved some back..not attempted..moved some..not all, were some destroyed as M.Faivre suggests.Going along with my scenario this now puts the RSM on the other bank..possibly in one of the cottages mentioned by John ..giving covering fire.Remember the Germans had the British in a crossfire as stated in earlier posts having established LMG on the far bank..the RSM attempting to return would have been cut down.To add weight to the arguement that some vehicles got over the bridge following Lt Col Harrisons death.A small counter attack was put in by Lyster-Todd, whom Townsend had ordered back across the bridge ....

at 1630hrs by the last three carriers from The Durham Light Infantry commanded by Lt Lyster-Todd were despatched to head off the enemy Source St Venant-Robeqc M.Faivre Pg 70

So some vehicles had escaped as demonstrated by the ability to put in a counter attack using albeit just three carriers.So could the RSM have been on the far bank..Possible?
Now Anthony Corkhill could he too have been on the far bank?...remember Capt Townsend `s order to `bring back any men I could`The Captain met with Lyster-todd from his diary "I sent Lyster-Todd and some men back at once " ...some men ...? Could Anthony have been amongst them? Lyster Todd made it back across...he led the counter attack...did Anthony also make the journey across...by this time the DLI HQ was ablaze Colonel Simpson was in a slit trench nearby..was Anthony Corkhill one of the men sent back...was he wounded on the `other side` did the RSM see Anthony on the canal bank as he was marched away from the last defence of the bridge from the cottages following Lt Colonel Harrisons death.I know its all ifs and buts but if this is a real possibility does that not put that British Grave back into the `possibility` catagory?
Best
Jim