saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

**ivor43** · 28-07-2012, 12:04

Good Morning.
First, Jim.
I apologise. As I stated it was never my intention to upset anyone. You have contributed a lot useful info to this investigation, I hope you will continue to do so.
And yes I did see the Captain/Major thing. But as field promotions were a regular thing i did not see it as significant. In fact, with the situation on 27^th when virtually all 2DLI’s officers were either POW’s or killed, I thought it quite normal. I would not have been surprised if senior NCO’s had been promoted to officers. It happened quite frequently.
Many field promotions were, Hostilities Only, so for his to be confirmed after the war might indicate he was a good officer who had earned it.
However I have no concern what his Rank may have been, nor really when he wrote it. What we have here is A Known Eye Witness Account. Ok, as it was written later it has to be treated with some caution, But it can not be ignored.
From the couple of Quotes I have seen on here. In one he seems to indicate that he saw Col Harrison heading north, this is totally at odds with The Red Dragon account.
Therefore it has to be investigated, we have no choice in this.
I am awaiting an answer to an email on this and depending on the answer I receive, if I get one, i may find myself with a very serious headache.
As I said evidence is needed to either prove or disprove a situation. We now must wait, as we are waiting for responses to John’s questions to his German friends.
This investigation has only been running a relatively short time, but we have received a huge amount of info. What we have to do now is sift through it, pick out what is relevant and discard the rest. This is where the independent thinking comes in. The rate at which we receive fresh info will slow down, but should not stop.

ivor

**Verrieres** · 28-07-2012, 13:22

Originally Posted by vori101

Good Morning.
First, Jim.
I apologise. As I stated it was never my intention to upset anyone. You have contributed a lot useful info to this investigation, I hope you will continue to do so.
And yes I did see the Captain/Major thing. But as field promotions were a regular thing i did not see it as significant. In fact, with the situation on 27^th when virtually all 2DLI’s officers were either POW’s or killed, I thought it quite normal. I would not have been surprised if senior NCO’s had been promoted to officers. It happened quite frequently.
Many field promotions were, Hostilities Only, so for his to be confirmed after the war might indicate he was a good officer who had earned it.
However I have no concern what his Rank may have been, nor really when he wrote it. What we have here is A Known Eye Witness Account. Ok, as it was written later it has to be treated with some caution, But it can not be ignored.
From the couple of Quotes I have seen on here. In one he seems to indicate that he saw Col Harrison heading north, this is totally at odds with The Red Dragon account.
Therefore it has to be investigated, we have no choice in this.
I am awaiting an answer to an email on this and depending on the answer I receive, if I get one, i may find myself with a very serious headache.
As I said evidence is needed to either prove or disprove a situation. We now must wait, as we are waiting for responses to John’s questions to his German friends.
This investigation has only been running a relatively short time, but we have received a huge amount of info. What we have to do now is sift through it, pick out what is relevant and discard the rest. This is where the independent thinking comes in. The rate at which we receive fresh info will slow down, but should not stop.

ivor

Hello Ivor
No need to apologise mate I`m not upset far from it I enjoy this discussion too much.You correct me and I will correct you thats the way we proceed towards the truth as you have rightly said its facts that count and together with the help of the members of this forum we will,hopefully,get Tony the answers he has been searching for for so long.Lifes too short to get upset so heres to a healthy and fruitful discussion.
Eye witness .Ivor...there must be someone alive out there who has our answers.I know of a 2 DLI Sgt who joined them just after Dunkirk I thought he may know someone but he doesnt ,unfortunately.In the book the Search for Tom by George Rodgers ,George came up with a load of information which then turned out to be related to the main battle and not D and B Companies actions at the`Other` bridge he was seeking if someone here knows George (I know he received a lot of help from RWF in his search for his brother) perhaps they could contact him on Tonys behalf and see if he has anything that will help us progress?
Best
Jim

**Verrieres** · 28-07-2012, 14:06

Ivor,
I have noted your interest in Lt Colonel Harrison and have always skirted around it as I did not think it would benefit Tonys search for Anthony..however..your persistance got me looking into the Lt Colonels death and I found something of interest to possibly Tony and yourself.

At the St Venant bridge where some fierce fighting had taken place everything was still pretty much as it had been when Monsieur Berthe returned home to his cafe.It was about a hundred metres away from the locks;" When we returned on Wednesday 29th May we found three dead English soldiers.One was in the cellar and he had been shot in the back but had obviously died in considerable pain .His name was Thomas Puntin.There was another at the bottom of the shed his name was John Evans.Lieut Colonel Harrison was in a ditchnext to the ???????(not translated).Between the garden and the road there was an English Tank.There were three soldiers inside;one of them was still gripping his pistol.A short while later when the German lorries went past we heard a shot.The Germans had set fire to this vehicle.At the corner of the house there was also a vehicle,with a machine gun inside there was one dead soldier.Four other British soldiers were dead above or on top of the ??????(untranslated).My father buried them in the trench they had dugA destroyed Bren gun carrier was parked opposite the Coal Merchants.Six dead Germans were buried opposite the house

I know that Thomas Puntin (The lad shot in the back )was 2 DLI Son of George and Ada Puntin, of Gateshead, Co. Durham; husband of Kathleen I. Puntin, of Dunston, Gateshead. John Evans I believe was Drummer John Arthur Norman Evans RWF.The Lt Colonel was of course Son of Brigadier-General Robert Arthur Gwynne Harrison, C.M.G., Three times mentioned in Despatches, and Alice Harrison, of King's Worthy, Hampshire; husband of Jeannette Marion Harrison, of Denbigh. Now heres the killer question who were the others in the grave.My opinion of the tanks is they could have all been Bren carriers but thats just an opinion.I think this field grave should be under serious consideration as a possible in regard to Anthony and we must take into consideration that these named casualties were moved to Haversque.The majority of the 2 DLI exhumed in 1941-42 were buried at St Venant Communal Cemetery.At Haversque there are four DLI all 2nd DLI and all killed on the 27th May 1940. I need to explore this more carefully but unfortunately I have to go to work any thoughts on this at all.Positive or Negative all appreciated and well received.

Best

Jim

**Baconwallah** · 28-07-2012, 15:10

Source please, Jim?

John

**Verrieres** · 28-07-2012, 15:30

Originally Posted by Baconwallah

Source please, Jim?

John

Sorry John Thought you had this one St Venant-Robeqc Part V The Return Pg 77 Faivre.1996

Best
Jim

**Baconwallah** · 28-07-2012, 16:36

I have it (and sent it to you). But I think it will help the discussion if we clearly identify out sources each time we come up with something.

Re your original post: you said "Now heres the killer question who were the others in the grave."

The only grave I see mentioned here is the one with six Germans. The British dead mentioned are inside the house, in Bren carriers or ditches, and could evidently be inspected and i several cases identified by the locals.

The presence of Tony's uncle here is extremely unlikely as the scene described is north of the St Venant bridge, about a hundred metres north of it. That is not consistent with Goddard making him comfortable on the canal bank. Unless he either crawled that way from where DLI HQ was, or was carried towards the front line by someone else. Can't see that happening myself.

John

**ivor43** · 28-07-2012, 16:58

Jim.
Great piece of detective work, I am very pleased. Possibly a fresh lead. Keep digging my friend.
This is the sort of thing I mean when I talk of creative thinking.
But surely this puts this location back to the south of the canal.As the locks are to the south of the old river bed.
John. In view of this evidence re the Col, do you think we should proceed with a certain amount of caution. Until we know what it is exactly about. Maybe by PM?

Ivor.

**chow** · 28-07-2012, 17:09

Ivor.
In view to the amount of views this thread has had and we have talk about this in person,
putting any part of the investigation underground just deprives viewers the opportunity to reply with as you put it "out of the box thinking"
I personally am as you know very interested in the outcome.
so please keep this open to all.
thanks.
Steve.

**Baconwallah** · 28-07-2012, 17:09

The untranslated word in your quote, Jim, is coron, cottage. I think it is fair to assume that this refers to one of the cottages north of the bridge, mentioned in the YDG account ("The RWF were about thirty to forty strong. Of these, perhaps half were with the CO and Captain Clough-Taylor at the south end of the bridge, while the remainder were with the second-in-command in the cottages at the north end.").

Ivor, why would this put the location back to the south of the canal? Col Harrison, mentioned here as one of the victims found, was killed after crossing the bridge.

John

**ivor43** · 28-07-2012, 19:35

John.
From the way it is written, I assumed it to be to the south side of the Lys. Surely anyone living to the north would have said 100 meters from the river. also we know there was a temporary bridge over the canal to the island but was there a bridge from the island to the north bank. Would not the journey from the locks over the road bridge be more than 100 meters.
Chow, some posts ago I made a comment regarding the death of Col Harrison which was misunderstood. And I was advised by ap1 to be careful not to cause offence to the relatives of the Col.
My concern is that if we do find something that is not in accord with the accepted record, would it not be correct procedure to advise the family of our findings before making them public.
Advice please.

Ivor.