saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

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26-07-2012, 00:18
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

An Aid Post at Calonne would have belonged to a different part of 3 Pz, Ivor. Can't rule it out, but it's unlikely. Equally unlikely is the Aid Post at the Boulet farm, in an entirely different sector of the battlefield and belonging to SS Germania instead of 3 Pz. We should look at St Venant itself, and the area to the south of it, near the l'Epinette bridge on either side of the la Bassee canal, to find the Aid Post or (more likely) the Clearing Station or whatever it may have been. I'm hoping that the Volksbund may have information pertinent to the case. But that will probably take some time.

John
26-07-2012, 00:49
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Hi again.
Interesting. You say that Anthony was not drawing pay at HQ on 12^th May. I assume you mean 2DLI HQ. Where were the units at that time, do we know?
Is there a possibility that at some time before the 12^th RSM Goddard and Anthony could have been reassigned to Brigade HQ.
Would this have taken them off 2DLI’s HQ payroll and put them on Brigade pay.
If for instance the Brigade HQ RSM ( Do they have one ) had been killed sometime prior to 12^th if RSM Goddard was the next senior RSM would he not have been moved up.
As we have a map showing Brigade HQ at Calonne it could put him back to the East of St Floris when Bgd HQ was forced to retreat.
Hmmm interesting.
Again thoughts please.

Ivor.
26-07-2012, 01:39
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

John.
Would you consider the action that appears to have taken place to the east of St Floris to be Bgd HQ trying to extricate themselves from Calonne with A Co RWF and the DLI Co providing cover.

ivor
26-07-2012, 08:54
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Ivor, on the 25th Bde HQ relocated from Calonne through Merville to le Touquet, just north of Haverskerque. Cover was provided by 6 KORR, which was a pioneer bn belonging to Army Troops.

John
26-07-2012, 13:28
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Mornin all.
Further thoughts on the Brigade idea.
If there is a possibility that, from some time prior to 12^th, RSM Goddard and Anthony were moved to Brigade HQ, and, taking Bob’s idea of an ‘O Group’ being formed.

Would a senior RSM be part of this Group. And would there be D/R’s attached.
I am just wondering, if Goddard had been trying to keep Anthony out of sight as much as possible because of the ‘Dog Tag’ problem,
Then i would guess that they were trying to cover it up till they got back to UK. Anthony could then just pick them up from where ever he left them.

The move to Brigade would make this more difficult. And, if, Goddard was attached to the ‘O’ Group, virtually impossible, unless he requested Anthony as a DR.

Teecee do you know if there is possibly any family connection between Anthony’s parents and Goddard. Or had Anthony’s father served with Goddard previously. As I am puzzled as to why Goddard is doing this? It seems very odd. This was a serious disciplinary offense and Goddard is condoning it. Strange.

John. Just read your latest post. You don’t half make things easy,(sigh) my brain hasn’t been this busy in years. Which is good, I was getting a bit sluggish.

So if Brigade moved N on 25^th would this make the formation of an ‘O’ Group more likely. So what I had already written above still applies.

ivor
26-07-2012, 14:14
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

teecee
my question in the above is just a general interest question. if there is nothing obvious then i dont think there is any need to dig further.

ivor
26-07-2012, 14:50
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

John.
i am at my local library at the moment so i can dig a bit.I have been searching the list of 3 panzer (Post 62) and there is no ref to a field aid post it only mentions in HQ Motor pool, 2 x3ton Ambulances.This might appear to suggest that Aid posts/ Hospitals were provided by some other organization. while i was there i also looked at the Bridge units. page 14 shows 1 Pz pioneer Co. had - 1 bridge platoon comprising - 1 Pz 11 (SD KFZ 121)and 4 armored Bridge Layers on Mk iv Chassis.
Page 15 details a bridging train.
If we recall the Diary of Major Townsend he states 'a tank went onto the bridge' could this have been the tank attached to this platoon,OK i am back east. but it may explain the ref to a tank. while at ST Venant the account refers to several tanks.Still digging.
26-07-2012, 17:53
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Ivor, my friend, each battalion or battalion sized unit of the Wehrmacht had its own medical unit with a doctor and sufficient staff to man an aid post (Truppenverbandplatz). Stretcher bearers would be provided by the companies. Exactly as in the British Army.

At divisional level there were two medical companies (Sanitätskompanien) which could each form a Casualty Clearing Station (Hauptverbandplatz) with one or two surgical teams and short stay beds. These companies also had a pharmacy and dental component. A real field hospital (Feldlazarett) was added at divisional level until 1942, when it was transferred to Army Troops.

O Groups to the best of my knowledge did not include RSMs, not did Brigade HQs. RSMs did not have dispatch riders.

I do admire and enjoy your new theory of the kindly RSM, although it's not quite as good as the panzer commander taking the night off.

John
26-07-2012, 18:06
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 John.
There was no reference in the list other than I said, I will have to take your word for it, but I find it odd that they would not include such facilities.
Now with regard to my kindly RSM . I know that they are not usually of that nature. But why is he apparently sticking his neck on a block for a Pte unless he may be doing a favour for the parents.

Ok I left myself open to a Fusillade of LMG , HMG and whatever because I did not realise the significance of what I had written until I got home again.
Of Course the tank that was attached to the bridge unit was not there as an offensive weapon it would have been for Armoured reconnaissance its weapons used as defence. So once it crossed this bridge of course it went North. Not to attack, apart from taking out a M/G post. But to reconnoitre the Old River Bed for a suitable crossing place.

John.mon ami moi pont de l’est , tres possible?

Ivor.
26-07-2012, 19:47
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Yves, mon cher ami, bien que le pont de l'est soit possible techniquement, quoique à peine, historiquement c'est un absurdité. Je regrette beaucoup.

Jean

Well, you asked for it...

Re your list, I have just checked the official German Army Handbook published by the War Office in 1943 or so. It does not mention any medical troops at all. Doesn't mean the Wehrmacht had no medical services. My info comes from a German manual I didn't even know I had until your questions forced me into the darkest and dustiest corners of my library (still coughing). You'll have to take my word for it.

Five Pz Divs (1. 2. 3. 5 and 10) had a bridging component with 4 Pz IV Brückenleger tanks (of which 20 had been built). The bridge was 10 metres long, give or take an inch or two, and for the 20 m wide Lys canal three of these bridges would have been necessary - if the canal was shallow enough to allow their use, as the supports were only about 3 metres long. Since a bridge across the Lys canal would only have led to the old Lys bed, another watery obstacle for which then only one bridge would have been available, I consider their use here extremely unlikely, the more so since two excellent and barely defended bridges were available at Merville and St Venant.

On a more practical note, Tony has now applied for his uncle's service record.

John
26-07-2012, 21:00
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Ivor,
Perhaps I can help with some of your questions.In regard to Captain Townsend`s diary please remember this must have been written in England after the event the inclusion of POW Numbers issued by the Germans in his end reference,and details of Gallantry awards not yet authorised whilst in France demonstrate this.

The Tank on the bridge was one of FIVE approaching the bridge not including the one which had bulldozed through the DLI Hq (Barn).The diary refers to Armoured Cars until the later paragraphs.

The Special relationship between RSM Goddard and Pte Corkhill? The pair had served together since 1931 (apart from a short posting by the RSM to 1st DLI).RSM Goddard had served throughout the 1st WW again with 2 DLI.

The area of the Robecq Rd Rue Amuzoires and St Floris was held by Machine gun detachments from C Company 2nd Manchesters.

Military Hospitals included those at Laventie,Merville and Saint Pol (Four DLI died at Merville and are buried there two were known to be from Hq Company)

The Pay issue the only thing that can be drawn from this is there must have been great confusion with men spread out over a wide area.The only men recorded in any number as drawing their pay were those of D Company.How accurate these records are is also open to interpretation as many returning PoWs questioned the validity of these records.

On another unrelated (not quite true!) The owner of the Farm used by the DLI as their Hq,Monsieur Taverne was found dead in (possibly executed by Germans) in a canal lock at Merville.

Best

Jim
26-07-2012, 21:47
teecee1941

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by vori101

teecee
my question in the above is just a general interest question. if there is nothing obvious then i dont think there is any need to dig further.

ivor

Ivor.

No, I am not aware of any connection between the families.

Tony
26-07-2012, 22:00
teecee1941

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by vori101

teecee
my question in the above is just a general interest question. if there is nothing obvious then i dont think there is any need to dig further.

ivor
26-07-2012, 22:09
teecee1941

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by teecee1941

Ivor.

No, I am not aware of any connection between the families.
On a human interest note;- I have a copy of a letter that RSM Goddard wrote to Anthony's father (my grandfather) after the war. He expressed his sorrow at the realisation that Anthony had not been seen again after the 27th. He said, ''I was very attached to him, he was a first class lad''.

Tony
27-07-2012, 23:33
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Hi Guys.

What follows is lengthy (3 parts) and not intended as a lecture or a criticism of anyone or any published work. Neither is it my Intention to be insulting or offensive. My only wish is to try and promote some Creative Thinking. Which I believe is going to be needed to solve this. Remember evidence is used to prove or disprove something.

I am beginning to have some misgivings about what we seem to be doing here. As a Police Officer we operated under very strict rules, The Judges Rules covered the treatment of Offenders, including the Formal Caution, ‘’ You are not obliged etc’’ as it was then. The Rules of Evidence , which laid down what was and was not permitted. Hearsay evidence was not permitted. Circumstantial Evidence was allowed but may lead to questions. But the Best Evidence was that of Eye Witnesses. However, this may to a surprising degree differ. If for example I witnessed a RTA. From a point say 100 yds to the rear, and someone else saw the same incident from the opposite direction they could have seen something entirely different. Yet in Court we would both be telling the Truth, As We Saw it. That is why in an earlier post I said the Truth was not always what it seems.
The training we had in Investigative technique was very comprehensive. In order to take a case to Court you had to examine Every Piece of Evidence. Even if it was contrary to the case. Because you needed to be aware, if possible, of what the Defendant was going to use.

In this case, the people who will have the final decision regarding our findings are going to have a lot more experience in these matters than we have, and believe me will go through our findings in minute detail. Therefore we have to be absolutely 100% sure of our facts. with the evidence to back it up.
What we have done so far has generated a large amount of info, but has it really moved us any closer to out goal. Not really. Why?
There seem so be a reluctance to challenge the Regimental accounts, although we, I thought, were broadly in agreement that they could be suspect.
Verriers, you say that the Majors account should not be trusted as it was probably written when he returned to England, which may have been a matter of Days later. But you seem to accept the 2 DLI account which, after the original was lost, was rewritten sometime later. The same, I believe, applies to the Red Dragon, it was written later based on reports made some time after the action. I am sorry guys but we need to find some fresh evidence. I know that this is difficult 72 years after the event, but we have to try.
My questioning the Aid Post has resulted in john finding a long forgotten book, Sorry about the dust. But this may lead to something else we do not yet know. This may be fresh Independent Evidence.
The behaviour of RSM Goddard, in relation to Anthony’s Dog Tags, is odd, hence my question about family ties. Has it any relevance? I don’t really know, maybe not. But we should not totally dismiss it.

1
28-07-2012, 01:03
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Now my ‘Fanciful’ account of German Engineers having a night out in Haverskirque.
The RWF War Diary says that in the morning a party of German Engineers were seen heading from the direction of Haverskirque. The plan was to capture them but they were engaged before this could happen.

So why were these engineers heading towards St Venant/St Floris? Again evidence shows that Bridging material was captured at St Floris. So it is not that difficult to connect the two. The engineers were returning to continue with what they had been doing the previous day. The troops encountered by the advancing RWF would have been guarding the Bridging Equipment. So presuming that these engineers were not aware that British troops were nearer than was expected, why would they not go into the nearest town.

If any of you were out on Manoeuvres close to a town, with a free night, did you stay in camp?
Now for my crowning piece of Questionable Logic. My second bridge to the East of St Venant and associated Tank Tracks. The following quote is taken from :-

The War in France and Flanders 1939-1940 by Major L.F.Ellis
No one visiting the quiet little town of St Venant for the first time would consider that it had military importance. Yet the contrast between its past and the peaceful history of any comparable town in England could hardly be greater. St Venant has seen many actions and suffered many sieges. Sir Thomas Morgan, one of Cromwell's commanders, took it from the Spaniards in 1657; Marlborough took it from the French in 1710; in 1940 it had been taken by the Germans on May the 24th and recaptured by the British 2nd Division on May the 25th (page 146). It was held on the morning of the 27th by the 6th Brigade's right flank battalion, the 1st Royal Welch Fusiliers, and part of the 2nd Durham Light Infantry. It will be remembered that the Welch Fusiliers had a detached company holding Robecq, but between St Venant and Robecq the enemy had penetrated. On the morning of the 27th composite forces of tanks and infantry attacked both places. The troops holding St Venant had heavy casualties and were gradually borne back and enclosed. **As evening drew on, the enemy had tanks beyond the canal bridge behind St Venant. When at last the order to withdraw north of the Lys reached the reduced garrison they had to fight their way out and but a fraction of the battalions got through. The detached company of Welch Fusiliers holding Robecq, which had been isolated and completely surrounded the day before, also tried to fight its way back to the Lys, but few avoided capture.
Through the gap east of St Venant the enemy's armoured columns had advanced on Merville and Lesterm. Merville was practically surrounded. A machine-gun company of the 6th Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders sent to assist the 6th King's Own came under heavy fire as they approached, and could not get into the town. The enemy was reinforced by troops landed by aircraft on the nearby airfield (which our gunners shelled) but the garrison held out till night-time when, on orders to withdraw, those who were left managed very skilfully to get away. The third battalion of the 6th Brigade—the 1st Royal Berkshire—also suffered heavily before they too were drawn back to the north.[14]

2
28-07-2012, 01:05
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Interesting.
In the first Para I have Starred an interesting passage re tanks behind St Venant while British troops were still in St Venant. Did they still hold the bridge if so where did these tanks come from. We are not told. They may have come across from the west. This may also be taken as circumstantial evidence for a crossing to the east. This is the sort of event that needs to be investigated, as if there is no evidence of an incursion from the west then they must have come from the East.
Oh dear there is a gap east of St Venant.
We have captured Bridging material at St Floris. We have a party of Engineers heading for the area. We have some very suspicious field marks just across the Lys. All to the East of St Venant.
Whilst this is very much Circumstantial Evidence it gives a very strong argument for the possibility of a crossing. Taken together with the Majors Diary and the fact that A Co RWF and was it D Co 2DLI were defending the East of St Floris (were they defending something other than St Floris?). then it increases the possibility. I have no direct evidence, yet, but I am still looking.
Hmm.
I read of the above several weeks ago and did not realise the relevance, it took me an hour to find this again this AM .
I hope this has not been boring or too fanciful. I just wish to try and create some fresh ideas. And encourage some ‘off the cuff’ thinking.
We can Not ignore anything even if it does not fit with historical records. Mon Amis, the answer will not be found in the Authorised Versions of the Regimental records.

Ivor
28-07-2012, 02:09
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by vori101

Hi Guys.

What follows is lengthy (3 parts) and not intended as a lecture or a criticism of anyone or any published work. Neither is it my Intention to be insulting or offensive. My only wish is to try and promote some Creative Thinking. Which I believe is going to be needed to solve this. Remember evidence is used to prove or disprove something.

I am beginning to have some misgivings about what we seem to be doing here. As a Police Officer we operated under very strict rules, The Judges Rules covered the treatment of Offenders, including the Formal Caution, ‘’ You are not obliged etc’’ as it was then. The Rules of Evidence , which laid down what was and was not permitted. Hearsay evidence was not permitted. Circumstantial Evidence was allowed but may lead to questions. But the Best Evidence was that of Eye Witnesses. However, this may to a surprising degree differ. If for example I witnessed a RTA. From a point say 100 yds to the rear, and someone else saw the same incident from the opposite direction they could have seen something entirely different. Yet in Court we would both be telling the Truth, As We Saw it. That is why in an earlier post I said the Truth was not always what it seems.
The training we had in Investigative technique was very comprehensive. In order to take a case to Court you had to examine Every Piece of Evidence. Even if it was contrary to the case. Because you needed to be aware, if possible, of what the Defendant was going to use.

In this case, the people who will have the final decision regarding our findings are going to have a lot more experience in these matters than we have, and believe me will go through our findings in minute detail. Therefore we have to be absolutely 100% sure of our facts. with the evidence to back it up.
What we have done so far has generated a large amount of info, but has it really moved us any closer to out goal. Not really. Why?
There seem so be a reluctance to challenge the Regimental accounts, although we, I thought, were broadly in agreement that they could be suspect.
Verriers, you say that the Majors account should not be trusted as it was probably written when he returned to England, which may have been a matter of Days later. But you seem to accept the 2 DLI account which, after the original was lost, was rewritten sometime later. The same, I believe, applies to the Red Dragon, it was written later based on reports made some time after the action. I am sorry guys but we need to find some fresh evidence. I know that this is difficult 72 years after the event, but we have to try.
My questioning the Aid Post has resulted in john finding a long forgotten book, Sorry about the dust. But this may lead to something else we do not yet know. This may be fresh Independent Evidence.
The behaviour of RSM Goddard, in relation to Anthony’s Dog Tags, is odd, hence my question about family ties. Has it any relevance? I don’t really know, maybe not. But we should not totally dismiss it.

1

Ivor
Sorry but I never said that Townsends Diary was not to be trusted nor have I ever said I accepted the official 2 DLI diaries,if you recall it was me who pointed out that the `official diaries were reconstituted at a latter date,Townsends diary and the Official Diaries are just that `Diaries` not legal statements.I think your leading the witness..there!
Townsends diaries could indeed have been written days after ...but they were not!..The clues are in the diary itself .As an ex-Policeman like you said your investigative training was quite intensive so you would have course noticed the most damming evidence of all The Diary of Major CM Townsend..not Captain CM Townsend as he was in 1940.Promotion to Major came officially in August 1945 before this he was war substansive.
I have listed why RSM Goddard may have had such a special relationship with Anthony... due to his long service ,I`ve posted the locations of Hospitals etc all of which were legitimate questions posted in this thread what I do not and will not do is cast any doubt on any document official or semi-official.What I do is accept both accounts as you so rightly put it as AS WE SAW IT.

Best
Jim
28-07-2012, 10:16
jungle1810

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hello,
Re the mention opf armoured cars in the ST Venant area, I came across the following. Sd Kfz 234 Started building in 1940 in response to a German army requirement. Country of origin Germany crew 4 men weight 11,740 Kg 25,828 LB, Length 6.80 metres Width 2.3 metres, height 2.38 metres Armour 5.15 mm 0. 19.05 of an inch. armaments one 20 mm kwk 30/50 mm cannon one coaxial 7.92 mm machine gun power plant one Tatra model 103 diesel engine developing 210 hp, maximum road speed 85 km/h 53 miles per hour fording 1.2 metres 3foot 10.75 inches vertical obstacle o.5 metres 1 foot 7.75 inches trench 1.35 metres 4 foot 5 inches. This is an 8 wheeled vehicle ( not a tracked vehicle)
Regards RBD
28-07-2012, 10:35
jungle1810

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hello,
Another version of a light armoured c ar built for the German army in the mid 1930's. SdKfz 222 Country of origin Germany Crew 3, Weight 4,800 kg 10,560 lb, Dimensions length 4.80 metres 14 foot 8 inches, width 1.95 metres 6 foot 4.75 inches, height 2 metres 6 fot 6.75 inches, with grenade screen Range 300 km 187 milesw armour 14.5 -30 mm 0.6 -1.2 inches armaments one 20 mm KwK 30 cannon, one 7.92 m G 34 machine gun power plant one Horch / Auto -Union V8 -108 water cooled petrol engine developing 81 hp maximum road speed 80 k/m 50 miles per hour fording 0.6 24 inches. this is a four wheeled vehicle
Regards RBD aka jungle1810
28-07-2012, 11:04
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Good Morning.
First, Jim.
I apologise. As I stated it was never my intention to upset anyone. You have contributed a lot useful info to this investigation, I hope you will continue to do so.
And yes I did see the Captain/Major thing. But as field promotions were a regular thing i did not see it as significant. In fact, with the situation on 27^th when virtually all 2DLI’s officers were either POW’s or killed, I thought it quite normal. I would not have been surprised if senior NCO’s had been promoted to officers. It happened quite frequently.
Many field promotions were, Hostilities Only, so for his to be confirmed after the war might indicate he was a good officer who had earned it.
However I have no concern what his Rank may have been, nor really when he wrote it. What we have here is A Known Eye Witness Account. Ok, as it was written later it has to be treated with some caution, But it can not be ignored.
From the couple of Quotes I have seen on here. In one he seems to indicate that he saw Col Harrison heading north, this is totally at odds with The Red Dragon account.
Therefore it has to be investigated, we have no choice in this.
I am awaiting an answer to an email on this and depending on the answer I receive, if I get one, i may find myself with a very serious headache.
As I said evidence is needed to either prove or disprove a situation. We now must wait, as we are waiting for responses to John’s questions to his German friends.
This investigation has only been running a relatively short time, but we have received a huge amount of info. What we have to do now is sift through it, pick out what is relevant and discard the rest. This is where the independent thinking comes in. The rate at which we receive fresh info will slow down, but should not stop.

ivor
28-07-2012, 12:22
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by vori101

Good Morning.
First, Jim.
I apologise. As I stated it was never my intention to upset anyone. You have contributed a lot useful info to this investigation, I hope you will continue to do so.
And yes I did see the Captain/Major thing. But as field promotions were a regular thing i did not see it as significant. In fact, with the situation on 27^th when virtually all 2DLI’s officers were either POW’s or killed, I thought it quite normal. I would not have been surprised if senior NCO’s had been promoted to officers. It happened quite frequently.
Many field promotions were, Hostilities Only, so for his to be confirmed after the war might indicate he was a good officer who had earned it.
However I have no concern what his Rank may have been, nor really when he wrote it. What we have here is A Known Eye Witness Account. Ok, as it was written later it has to be treated with some caution, But it can not be ignored.
From the couple of Quotes I have seen on here. In one he seems to indicate that he saw Col Harrison heading north, this is totally at odds with The Red Dragon account.
Therefore it has to be investigated, we have no choice in this.
I am awaiting an answer to an email on this and depending on the answer I receive, if I get one, i may find myself with a very serious headache.
As I said evidence is needed to either prove or disprove a situation. We now must wait, as we are waiting for responses to John’s questions to his German friends.
This investigation has only been running a relatively short time, but we have received a huge amount of info. What we have to do now is sift through it, pick out what is relevant and discard the rest. This is where the independent thinking comes in. The rate at which we receive fresh info will slow down, but should not stop.

ivor

Hello Ivor
No need to apologise mate I`m not upset far from it I enjoy this discussion too much.You correct me and I will correct you thats the way we proceed towards the truth as you have rightly said its facts that count and together with the help of the members of this forum we will,hopefully,get Tony the answers he has been searching for for so long.Lifes too short to get upset so heres to a healthy and fruitful discussion.
Eye witness .Ivor...there must be someone alive out there who has our answers.I know of a 2 DLI Sgt who joined them just after Dunkirk I thought he may know someone but he doesnt ,unfortunately.In the book the Search for Tom by George Rodgers ,George came up with a load of information which then turned out to be related to the main battle and not D and B Companies actions at the`Other` bridge he was seeking if someone here knows George (I know he received a lot of help from RWF in his search for his brother) perhaps they could contact him on Tonys behalf and see if he has anything that will help us progress?
Best
Jim
28-07-2012, 13:06
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Ivor,
I have noted your interest in Lt Colonel Harrison and have always skirted around it as I did not think it would benefit Tonys search for Anthony..however..your persistance got me looking into the Lt Colonels death and I found something of interest to possibly Tony and yourself.

Quote:

At the St Venant bridge where some fierce fighting had taken place everything was still pretty much as it had been when Monsieur Berthe returned home to his cafe.It was about a hundred metres away from the locks;" When we returned on Wednesday 29th May we found three dead English soldiers.One was in the cellar and he had been shot in the back but had obviously died in considerable pain .His name was Thomas Puntin.There was another at the bottom of the shed his name was John Evans.Lieut Colonel Harrison was in a ditchnext to the ???????(not translated).Between the garden and the road there was an English Tank.There were three soldiers inside;one of them was still gripping his pistol.A short while later when the German lorries went past we heard a shot.The Germans had set fire to this vehicle.At the corner of the house there was also a vehicle,with a machine gun inside there was one dead soldier.Four other British soldiers were dead above or on top of the ??????(untranslated).My father buried them in the trench they had dugA destroyed Bren gun carrier was parked opposite the Coal Merchants.Six dead Germans were buried opposite the house

I know that Thomas Puntin (The lad shot in the back )was 2 DLI Son of George and Ada Puntin, of Gateshead, Co. Durham; husband of Kathleen I. Puntin, of Dunston, Gateshead. John Evans I believe was Drummer John Arthur Norman Evans RWF.The Lt Colonel was of course Son of Brigadier-General Robert Arthur Gwynne Harrison, C.M.G., Three times mentioned in Despatches, and Alice Harrison, of King's Worthy, Hampshire; husband of Jeannette Marion Harrison, of Denbigh. Now heres the killer question who were the others in the grave.My opinion of the tanks is they could have all been Bren carriers but thats just an opinion.I think this field grave should be under serious consideration as a possible in regard to Anthony and we must take into consideration that these named casualties were moved to Haversque.The majority of the 2 DLI exhumed in 1941-42 were buried at St Venant Communal Cemetery.At Haversque there are four DLI all 2nd DLI and all killed on the 27th May 1940. I need to explore this more carefully but unfortunately I have to go to work any thoughts on this at all.Positive or Negative all appreciated and well received.

Best

Jim
28-07-2012, 14:10
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Source please, Jim?

John
28-07-2012, 14:30
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baconwallah

Source please, Jim?

John

Sorry John Thought you had this one St Venant-Robeqc Part V The Return Pg 77 Faivre.1996

Best
Jim
28-07-2012, 15:36
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

I have it (and sent it to you). But I think it will help the discussion if we clearly identify out sources each time we come up with something.

Re your original post: you said "Now heres the killer question who were the others in the grave."

The only grave I see mentioned here is the one with six Germans. The British dead mentioned are inside the house, in Bren carriers or ditches, and could evidently be inspected and i several cases identified by the locals.

The presence of Tony's uncle here is extremely unlikely as the scene described is north of the St Venant bridge, about a hundred metres north of it. That is not consistent with Goddard making him comfortable on the canal bank. Unless he either crawled that way from where DLI HQ was, or was carried towards the front line by someone else. Can't see that happening myself.

John
28-07-2012, 15:58
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Jim.
Great piece of detective work, I am very pleased. Possibly a fresh lead. Keep digging my friend.
This is the sort of thing I mean when I talk of creative thinking.
But surely this puts this location back to the south of the canal.As the locks are to the south of the old river bed.
John. In view of this evidence re the Col, do you think we should proceed with a certain amount of caution. Until we know what it is exactly about. Maybe by PM?

Ivor.
28-07-2012, 16:09
chow

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Ivor.
In view to the amount of views this thread has had and we have talk about this in person,
putting any part of the investigation underground just deprives viewers the opportunity to reply with as you put it "out of the box thinking"
I personally am as you know very interested in the outcome.
so please keep this open to all.
thanks.
Steve.
28-07-2012, 16:09
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

The untranslated word in your quote, Jim, is coron, cottage. I think it is fair to assume that this refers to one of the cottages north of the bridge, mentioned in the YDG account ("The RWF were about thirty to forty strong. Of these, perhaps half were with the CO and Captain Clough-Taylor at the south end of the bridge, while the remainder were with the second-in-command in the cottages at the north end.").

Ivor, why would this put the location back to the south of the canal? Col Harrison, mentioned here as one of the victims found, was killed after crossing the bridge.

John
28-07-2012, 18:35
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 John.
From the way it is written, I assumed it to be to the south side of the Lys. Surely anyone living to the north would have said 100 meters from the river. also we know there was a temporary bridge over the canal to the island but was there a bridge from the island to the north bank. Would not the journey from the locks over the road bridge be more than 100 meters.
Chow, some posts ago I made a comment regarding the death of Col Harrison which was misunderstood. And I was advised by ap1 to be careful not to cause offence to the relatives of the Col.
My concern is that if we do find something that is not in accord with the accepted record, would it not be correct procedure to advise the family of our findings before making them public.
Advice please.

Ivor.
28-07-2012, 18:50
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Ivor, in an earlier post I already stated that the temporary Pigeau No.3 bridge built by the French engineers was 159.5 metres long. That carried it across the canal, the river bed and the island. Measure the distance in Google Earth if you do not believe me.

The river at this point is frequently referred to in French accounts as the northern arm of the Lys canal. Both arms had locks. The northern lock does not exist any more, it has been replaced by a weir.

So far we have not found anything not in accordance with the existing records.

John
28-07-2012, 19:24
chow

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Ivor.
My thoughts were purely in mind of the first post,
the thread seems to have deviated a bit from the mission.
I f you are now looking into Mr Harrison then that should be kept separate..
The post by verrieres seems the way to go, with out other information at the moment.

steve.
28-07-2012, 20:12
jungle1810

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hello all,
Not wishing to muddy the waters , I have found an old e mail dated 01/01/2006, I had a sent a query to the Wilfred Owen Association and the last paragraph comments on the church at St Floris where Sassoon was in action 7th July 1918 (25th R W F) our cap badge is engraved on the church wall in St Floris Church ( as one would expect the word was spelt WELSH ) The e mail goes on to say a sad and moving sight is the grave of Lt Col Garnett 's son who was killed in action in a Bren gun carrier by the church on the 23rd of May 1940 the victim of a German anti tank gun sited just around the corner of the church A co-incidence but another face and time and place re the retreat to Dunkirk
truth is some times stranger than fiction.
Regards R B D aka jungle1810
28-07-2012, 21:35
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baconwallah

I have it (and sent it to you). But I think it will help the discussion if we clearly identify out sources each time we come up with something.

Re your original post: you said "Now heres the killer question who were the others in the grave."

The only grave I see mentioned here is the one with six Germans. The British dead mentioned are inside the house, in Bren carriers or ditches, and could evidently be inspected and i several cases identified by the locals.

The presence of Tony's uncle here is extremely unlikely as the scene described is north of the St Venant bridge, about a hundred metres north of it. That is not consistent with Goddard making him comfortable on the canal bank. Unless he either crawled that way from where DLI HQ was, or was carried towards the front line by someone else. Can't see that happening myself.

John

Hello John,

Sorry I would have added the source and I acknowledge the fact that it was indeed your good self who sent me the document which is why I presumed.wrongly that having read the document you would have been aware of its contents.The information was posted for Ivors attention re-Harrison but I will quote sources when available.Again I apologise.
The Grave is not the German one but the British who were buried in their trench by this Frenchmans father only three are named in the account whilst there are at least eleven in total.It would be Good if we could identify if all these were `known` or were some `innconnu`.
I do not know if this will have a bearing on anything but I will attempt to identify the Companies these DLI at Haversque came from.One casualty Captain Chipchase was recorded just prior to the move at St Venant as detached serving with 2nd Division in what role I do not know.On a similar topic Capt Townsend was seconded to 6th Brigade(May 1940) Hq when he returned to 2 DLI is not recorded. (Source Diaries and Reg History National Archives WO 197 Series France and Belguim 1939-40 )

best
Jim
28-07-2012, 22:12
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

I was aware of the contents, Jim, and recognised the quote. I just wanted to draw your attention to adding sources to quotes or statements to make the information accessible to others. We should try to do that from now on, I believe.

You are right and I misunderstood your "the grave" remark. But from the description of the bodies I do not think any of them could have been Tony's uncle - apart from being on the wrong side of the Lys.

John
28-07-2012, 22:52
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Brian.
That confirms the RWF account. When they were approaching St Floris they had 2 carriers leading as they came around a left hand bend they came under fire. One was burned out and I think it named those killed. Good confirmation of the date, always good.
Chow.
Noted mate, but be sure of one thing we are still working to the same end. However this is not going to be a straight road, I never believed it would. But what I am trying to do is eliminate or confirm the evidence of Major Townsend who was an eye witness, and has made a statement that conflicts with other accounts. This has to be sorted. I do not believe we have any other option.

ivor
29-07-2012, 01:05
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

I was aware of the contents, Jim, and recognised the quote. I just wanted to draw your attention to adding sources to quotes or statements to make the information accessible to others. We should try to do that from now on, I believe.

You are right and I misunderstood your "the grave" remark. But from the description of the bodies I do not think any of them could have been Tony's uncle - apart from being on the wrong side of the Lys.

Hello John,
Agreed sources to be named no problem.My idea regarding the Grave being a possibility was based on on the following sentence

Quote:

By this time the armoured cars were almost at the cafe and although I waved to the men inside I realised they could no more come out than I could go to them across an open space..Source;- Townsend Diary May 27th 1940

With reference to the Cafe in this sentence and the reference to Monsieur Berthe ;-Source Part V St Venant-Robeqc Pg 70

Quote:

...when Monsieur Berthe returned home to his cafe...

I had hoped that this could have been one of the Field graves from the last stand? However and forgive my ignorance on such matters if you are stating that Colonel Harrison was killed on the other side of the Canal that may or may not rule this out but I am not yet convinced.If I have got this right and this is my simplyfied version Lt Colonel Harrison and Clough Taylor were the last to cross ,Clough Taylor was wounded? The Lt Colonel waited until he was sure Clough Taylor was safe ordered the Bridge destroyed but it could`nt be as there were no RE ? The Lt Colonel turned to make his way up the Haversque Road ? A German Tank appeared opened fire and the Good Lt Colonel was killed? If this is basically right I have a few questions
.How far away was the Colonel when he was killed was he just across the Bridge ?
Was he well up the road?
How was he found in a trench near M.Berthe cafe.If he was machine gunned on the road ? Presumably if he had been in the trench originally then the tank would have been unlikely to have harmed him in fact I believe the RWF Doctor Lundie? escaped using the trenches and ditches?
What I am really saying is this..is there any possibility that the Lt Colonel was killed either at the very end of the bridge or actually on it? The advancing Germans who I assume would normally run down the dead/wounded ahead of them rather than hold up an advance for any humanitarian reasons would I believe realise through his rank badges that this body in front of them was a Lieutenant Colonel in the British Army and maybe just maybe drag him just back far enough out of the range of the British Soldiers still firing at them from the building on the opposite end of the bridge (Pg 69 St Venant-Robeqc M.Faivre) to quickly search the body then throw him into the trench near the cafe?...I know we might never know but is it possible or has my limited to non existance knowledge of all matters RWF missed some glaring fact.

Best

Jim
29-07-2012, 01:25
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Jim, the café meant by Townsend was at the junction of Rue des Amusoires and Rue de Saint-Floris/Rue Jean Moulin.

Re the death of Col Harrison, this is the account in Y Ddraig Goch [1954], based on eye witness accounts:

"By this time, the DLI Headquarters appeared to have fallen, and whilst the thinning out process was
occurring across the bridge, the enemy tanks were advancing towards the bridge, down the road past the
cemetery, firing at almost point blank range. As the men had come back in twos and threes they had been
collected by the second-in-command, formed into sections under an NCO, pushed into a roadside ditch,
and set off on a long crawl across the fire-swept ground towards the rearward RV given by the Brigade
Commander.
When all were clear of the bridge, the enemy tanks had nearly reached the far end. The CO now gave
orders for the bridge to be blown up and it was then discovered that the sapper demolition party
were no longer present. They had been seen about fifteen minutes earlier, but whether they had
withdrawn or become casualties is not known. The one certain thing was that the bridge could not now
be destroyed and that there was nothing to prevent the enemy tanks from following the remnant of the
Battalion over the canal.
The leading enemy tank showed a strange hesitancy about crossing the bridge. Possibly the crew
suspected a trap or perhaps were incredulous of the fact that the defenders now had no anti-tank weapons
with which to oppose them. In any case, there was an appreciable pause which enabled another section
to be despatched down the ditch. At last, the leading tank rolled forward across the bridge. Every weapon
which the enemy could bring to bear was now firing on the cluster of cottages. The tanks, once over the
canal, made short work of the few remaining defenders. In the last flurry of disorganised fighting,
Colonel Harrison met his death by a burst of machine-gun fire, fired at short range. Soon the enemy tanks
were deployed on either flank, going forward across the open ground."

In short, he was killed while attempting to withdraw down a roadside ditch from the cluster of cottages at the northern end of the bridge.

Lt Lundie was captured at his Aid Post [info also from YDG].

Northern France at the time was littered with roadside café's. The one Townsend described was, according to M Faivre, owned by M Taverne.

John
29-07-2012, 10:49
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Jim
Whilst this may rule out the Col, it by no means rules out Anthony who we know was to the south.

ivor
29-07-2012, 10:55
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Thank you John, for that much more detailed report on Harrisons demise he was indeed,it appears,on the opposite bank.Now another question ? Are we sure that the RSM and Anthony Corkhill were not also on that side of the canal?

Quote:

A Verbal message came up that Colonel Harrison of the RWF whose HQ was a little further along the bank towards the bridge,wanted Colonel Simpson.As the CO had recently been to the RWF`s HQ talking to Bde Hq by wireless and not knowing exactly where he was I crawled back to see Colonel Harrison.He said the position was untenable and that he was taking what men he could to form a bridgehead.I was to bring back any men I could.
I sent Lyster-Todd and some men back at once and crawled forward as far as the cemetery.Here I found CSM Burkitt and Pte Worthy...source Capt Townsends diary

In earlier posts we learned that RSM Goddard attempted to get his transport across the bridge according to M.Faivre St Venant-Robeqc it was like this

Quote:

Sergeant Major Goddard desperately tried to move the battalion headquarters vehicles and lead them towards the bridge whilst others errected barracades on the road.The vehicles were hit and burst into flames..

The interesting point or phrase here is ` lead them towards the bridge ..` he led,from the front was he in the lead vehicle did he actually make it across the bridge...not according to M.Faivres report as he said `the vehicles were hit and burst into flames` now heres my question ...All of the vehicles burst into flames or some of them it does not state which.From my tiny knowledge of Tank warfare and what happened later in the war at Villiers Bocage..if you have a column of vehicles by taking out the front and back vehicles you have the remainder trapped to pick off at will,these roads in 1940 would have been narrow the surrounding countryside was boggy and wet (Sgt-Major McLanes escape to the Canal across boggy ground).If this were done then the RSM who was `leading`his vehicles would have been one of the first casualties..we know he was not do we then summise that the vehicles were hit by indescriminate artillery fire which set onfire some but not all of the vehicles..those at the rear of the RSM..preventing him from going anywhere but across the bridge.Burning vehicles on a narrow road form one hell of a barrier! Would the RSM have ordered the vehicles onward and returned to his HQ..possibly but doubtful as his escape route back is blocked by burning vehicles more likely a scenario is he is the RSM a long serving soldier of good stature admired by officers and men alike he has been ordered to get his vehicles away(He has not decided this on his own iniative!) hes lost some but hes going to do his damn best to carry out his orders..and he does he proceeds across the bridge. A little more from Capt Townsends diary

Quote:

The RSM moved some of the vehicles from HQ back across the bridge

According to Townsend he actually moved some back..not attempted..moved some..not all, were some destroyed as M.Faivre suggests.Going along with my scenario this now puts the RSM on the other bank..possibly in one of the cottages mentioned by John ..giving covering fire.Remember the Germans had the British in a crossfire as stated in earlier posts having established LMG on the far bank..the RSM attempting to return would have been cut down.To add weight to the arguement that some vehicles got over the bridge following Lt Col Harrisons death.A small counter attack was put in by Lyster-Todd, whom Townsend had ordered back across the bridge ....

Quote:

at 1630hrs by the last three carriers from The Durham Light Infantry commanded by Lt Lyster-Todd were despatched to head off the enemy Source St Venant-Robeqc M.Faivre Pg 70

So some vehicles had escaped as demonstrated by the ability to put in a counter attack using albeit just three carriers.So could the RSM have been on the far bank..Possible?
Now Anthony Corkhill could he too have been on the far bank?...remember Capt Townsend `s order to `bring back any men I could`The Captain met with Lyster-todd from his diary "I sent Lyster-Todd and some men back at once " ...some men ...? Could Anthony have been amongst them? Lyster Todd made it back across...he led the counter attack...did Anthony also make the journey across...by this time the DLI HQ was ablaze Colonel Simpson was in a slit trench nearby..was Anthony Corkhill one of the men sent back...was he wounded on the `other side` did the RSM see Anthony on the canal bank as he was marched away from the last defence of the bridge from the cottages following Lt Colonel Harrisons death.I know its all ifs and buts but if this is a real possibility does that not put that British Grave back into the `possibility` catagory?
Best
Jim

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