Frank Williams WW2 Wrexham TA, RWF mix of units, Killyleagh, Possible Commando time

Thanks John. Wonder why he was only fit for home service then - especially given he hadn't gone anywhere anyway apparently. mind he had 4 unexplained trips to hospital so if they genuinely were illness related that would explain it but interesting that my Grandma never mentioned him having been in hospital (and they were married by then) or ever being ill.

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Originally Posted by Drew5233

Scrub my last - I have found the 9 Independent Coy war diary for May and June in another series (WO 168 Norway). It's only two pages, not much detail, I'm sacking it for the night now so I'll post the pages tomorrow.

Cheers
Andy

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9 Ind Coy War Diary for May and June - Not much really. I suspect looking for post action reports at Kew may hold more info.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/841/o0xcj.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/856/8mro.jpg

[QUOTE=Drew5233;78396]9 Ind Coy War Diary for May and June - Not much really. I suspect looking for post action reports at Kew may hold more info.

/QUOTE]

Thank you for finding this

Hi all.
I am beginning to wonder if we are actually looking at some 'disinformation'. It is recorded that 8th Btn RWF was designated as a Home Defense unit, it would seem to me a good place to 'hide' men who would be immediately available for Special Duties, and would be a way of ''keeping them on strength'' with No Problem with them being sent for Special Training.
I wonder if the 'Hospital' entries were actually Debriefs, Medicals and some R&R after raids.


ivor

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Originally Posted by vori101

Hi all.
I am beginning to wonder if we are actually looking at some 'disinformation'. It is recorded that 8th Btn RWF was designated as a Home Defense unit,
ivor

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The 8th, 9th and 10th Bn's were second line units, responsible for supplying the frontline units with replacements. At the onset of war, they were also required to supply a number of "volunteers" to form 9 Ind Company….Likewise the 4th, 6th and 7th Bn supplied the men for 2 Ind Company. It's important to remember, a large number of the frontline infantry units, which would have the best trained men were already in France with the BEF, so the supply of men had to come from units elsewhere.

I don't think the secrecy was available at that stage. These units were very much at the "Boys Own" stage of development. Very little funding, just enthusiastic officers, throwing up ideas, and putting together small missions, on a shoestring budget….Such as Op Collar…..Later that may have changed, as they began to produce results. Finally attached is a portion of the service record of Hugh Maines. A Royal Welchman from the 9th RWF, who served with Ted Jones MM, in 11 Ind Company in 1940 and took part in Op Collar. The units are clearly shown.

Attachment 3458http://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gif

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Originally Posted by vori101

Hi all.
I am beginning to wonder if we are actually looking at some 'disinformation'. It is recorded that 8th Btn RWF was designated as a Home Defense unit, it would seem to me a good place to 'hide' men who would be immediately available for Special Duties, and would be a way of ''keeping them on strength'' with No Problem with them being sent for Special Training.
I wonder if the 'Hospital' entries were actually Debriefs, Medicals and some R&R after raids.


ivor

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this is what I have been starting to wonder. Interestingly he didn't even have leave recorded for his honeymoon which he definitely went on - only 72hrs but I am sure it would be recorded because it is on my Grandma's records (they came yesterday and whilst I haven't seen them my mum says if he was where he officially was then she can't see how they managed to meet where they always said they did and how they managed to see each other)

Still puzzled how/why he was compulsory transfer to being a driver at the end of 1943, why was he so unfit suddenly having been a very good boxer, worked down the mines before the war, being a labourer etc, hadn't been wounded because he hadn't been anywhere to be wounded, was never ill after the war and didn't have any injuries. none of it makes sense.

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Originally Posted by ap1

The 8th, 9th and 10th Bn's were second line units, responsible for supplying the frontline units with replacements. At the onset of war, they were also required to supply a number of "volunteers" to form 9 Ind Company….Likewise the 4th, 6th and 7th Bn supplied the men for 2 Ind Company. It's important to remember, a large number of the frontline infantry units, which would have the best trained men were already in France with the BEF, so the supply of men had to come from units elsewhere.

I don't think the secrecy was available at that stage. These units were very much at the "Boys Own" stage of development. Very little funding, just enthusiastic officers, throwing up ideas, and putting together small missions, on a shoestring budget….Such as Op Collar…..Later that may have changed, as they began to produce results. Finally attached is a portion of the service record of Hugh Maines. A Royal Welchman from the 9th RWF, who served with Ted Jones MM, in 11 Ind Company in 1940 and took part in Op Collar. The units are clearly shown.

Attachment 3458http://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gif

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but this is the thing though isn't it -if any of what he said was true then it should be on his record like this where it shows what companies they were in. as it doesn't show any of this the only thing we can assume then is that he never did commando training in Scotland, never went to Norway and saw his friends killed, never saw any active service and was obviously very sickly randomly in the middle of the war for the only time in his life. unless there is a page of information missing or information recorded against another Frank Williams which I shouldn't think is possible because I would presume they used their numbers not names alone or he was doing something odd that for some reason they didn't record.

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Originally Posted by Anniek

but this is the thing though isn't it -if any of what he said was true then it should be on his record like this where it shows what companies they were in. as it doesn't show any of this the only thing we can assume then is that he never did commando training in Scotland.

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I still think its possible, a lot would depend on the quality of administration at a particular unit. Ted Jones MM, only spent a few months with the Ind Company, before moving to 2RWF….Some of the men probably only did weeks! Hugh above, stayed with the Commando fraternity. We do know that the volunteers for the Ind Company's trained in Scotland. We need an example of another 8th Bn man's records, who went to an Ind company to make a final assertion.

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Originally Posted by vori101

Hi all.
I am beginning to wonder if we are actually looking at some 'disinformation'. It is recorded that 8th Btn RWF was designated as a Home Defense unit, it would seem to me a good place to 'hide' men who would be immediately available for Special Duties, and would be a way of ''keeping them on strength'' with No Problem with them being sent for Special Training.
I wonder if the 'Hospital' entries were actually Debriefs, Medicals and some R&R after raids.

I tend to agree Ivor my dad was in hospital when he was told he was going to the Parachute regiment, a week or so after he came out he and a couple of others were told they were not going to the Para regiment but would be going to an undisclosed location for training for "special Ops" this proved to be RAF Cardington (though the official records say no parachute training was undertaken there), he is adamant he did the training there and remembers the two large hangers that used to hold the airships in WW1. Also although he was still shown on Royal Berks strength he was not with them for the rest of the war being on special ops making several jumps and or landings in occupied Northern France. None of this is in his record so proving anything is very hard, I only have his word for it as does Anniek only have the word of the person involved.

Cheers

Dave


ivor

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Dave - did your Dad get any random SPP at any point? I remember it being suggested pages ago that this could have been for something like parachute training.

No I don't think so Dads Parachute pay was he says an Extra tanner a month, Parachute pay was and is I believe still paid as a monthly extra for the qualification.

Cheers

Dave

ah ok - that makes more sense. wonder what the payment would have been then.

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Originally Posted by dcdl12976

No I don't think so Dads Parachute pay was he says an Extra tanner a month, Parachute pay was and is I believe still paid as a monthly extra for the qualification.

Cheers

Dave

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You still get Parachute pay in the British Army today. Its around a fiver a day if you are serving with a airborne unit. You loose it if you get posted out.

what was at Beddgelert during WW2? I have found references to target practice ranges on the railway and RAF base about 20 miles away. And one reference from a commando in a book who comments on being in billets there. Just found something else commenting on Cwm Llan being used for commando training too.

Just curious because Mum said her parents went on their honeymoon there and stayed with a landlady in a B&B he knew well. It was commented that he was one of her favourites (he was always polite and a gentleman I believe). He knew the area very well when my mum was a child despite not having lived there as far as she knew (he was from Brymbo) or had a car until after the war when he borrowed one to take them there for a short holiday. Apparently he learned to climb there in the war.

ok so I think I am getting caught up in my own 'what if' theories but I was looking to see if any of the dates on his record could be significant so just humour me for a moment please.

so we have the date in May 1940 when he was made acting corporal which could have tied in with Norway in some way.

Looking at 1942 which is the one with the random hospital visits.

Is it possibly a bit too coincidental he changed battalion on March 14th when the St Nazaire raids were just being grouped together and then he had leave for 8 days from 1st April (his first leave recorded in the records and one of only 2 leave periods in the whole war that are noted, the other being 1-7 August 1942) and then hospital 20-22 April

Hi All.
Beddgelert is on the River Madoc a few miles inland from Porthmadoc. The River may well have been used for canoe training. with regard to a railway. The Welsh Highland Railway runs through the town,This is a Narrow Gauge system that has been in existence, in varying degrees since 1870 and is very Spectacular. The countryside in the area is Very Rugged so its use as a training area would not surprise me. It is a Major Climbing area Today.
With regard to Airfields.
RAF Llabeder is about 12 Km South of Portmadoc and RAF Llandwrog, Caernarvon is about 20 miles North.

Cwm Llan

http://www.fotolibra.com/gallery/554...lan-snowdonia/

Very Tough Country. Especially if the weather is not good.
I will keep looking for anything more at Beddgelert.

ivor

Thanks Ivor. I have been to Wales quite a few times but mostly on field trips (geology degree) to random remote places. My only memory of a fieldtrip to Snowdon area was it being February and it had snowed so when we were asked to draw the rock formations I stupidly (it was our first year) commented that they were covered in snow to which the lecturer replied 'then move it, you have hands!'

Interestingly there was an overnight raid to France I believe with just a few hours on land on the 21/22 April 1942. coincidentally Grandad was in hospital 20-22nd April. Perhaps he had transferred battalions in preparation for doing that rather than St Nazaire as I wondered last night.

EDITED - I got the dates wrong - he was in hospital on 18-20th April (it was logged on 20 and 22) so I can forget that possible explanation.

Hi All

A bit more info re Commando units and St Nazaire

http://stnazairesociety.org/Sections/armyforces.html


ivor

just found this re the Mountain Training. interesting

http://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-...-training.html

ivor

both are very interesting - thank you.

The mountain training ties in with so many bits that he did say.

Hi.
Well. with what we seem to know about this puzzle, could he not have been in ''Hospital'' for medical checks, tests, etc before the raid.

ivor

yes that's true, hadn't thought of that. I suppose as well that it was really just to provide some sort of cover story that they came up with these things.

Interestingly that raid on the night of the 21st was originally on the night of the 19th.... perfectly possible the paperwork was completed for the original date and then when they had to redo it a couple of days later it would have been more confusing to add to the original cover?

I am starting to think I should write some sort of mystery book, I am quite enjoying exploring random far fetched possible theories :biggrinicon: (plus it is a distraction from the Disney princess dress I have had to make for one of my daughters and now the other one wants a dress too)

Hi all.

A few more bits of info.
My ref to the Welsh Highland Railway as not strictly correct. By 1939 the Railway was no longer in use, But the Track Bed as still in place. But the Festiniog Railway, another Narrow gauge system, was operating,until 1939, from Blaenau Ffestiniog to Portmadoc.
But something has appeared in my digging which may not be widely known.
Although this area may appear wild and remote, it was far from inaccessible.
Porthmadoc was served from the South By the G.W.R. from Birmingham via Shrewsbury, and Mid Wales along the Cambrian Coast where their were a number of airfields and Commando Training camps.
There was also the L.M.S west Coast Main Line London to Holyhead. With it's Branch Line from Llandudno Junction to Blaenau Ffestiniog along the Conway Valley.
There was also a Line from Ruabon on the Shrewsbury to Birkenhead Line Through Llangollen,Corwen ,Bala then on to Trawsfynned.where there was a camp with it's own Station and also a firing range, and Blaeneu Ffestiniog.
So not quite that remote.

ivor

sounds like it was a very busy place during the war then, funny because it sounded small and quiet. the locals must have had quite a shock.

Hi.
probably a shock. yes.
But may be not quite as much a shock as the following.

""On April 2 1942 they arrived by train in Porthmadog (with all their mules and horses in cattle trucks which were not very suitable for their animals) and set up camp...

They had white officers but there was an Indian doctor and an Indian vet. The mules and horses were taken out each day for exercise, three abreast, and used to take over an hour to pass, with the vet at the head of the troop on a white horse. His name was Malik Mohammed Khan. I think altogether there must have been about 1,000 men and 1,000 animals between Croesor and Nantmor.

The Indians were only here for just over three months in the spring/summer of 1942 but they made a big impression, partly because local people at that time had never before seen faces of a different colour. People remember the Indians as being very polite and well behaved. The area seemed very quiet when they left.

There is even a spot on the Roman Road from Croesor to Nantmor that is called Pont Traed y Mul to this day by the locals (The Bridge of The Mule's Leg). It was named after the occasion when one of the mules got its leg stuck in the gap between two large, flat slates over a drain, could not be extricated and had to be destroyed, leaving the leg stuck between the slates.

The men took the mules to the Dwyryd river at Penrhyndeudraeth to practise swimming a river - which later in Burma they had to do very often. At the beginning of the war the Indians were not armed, but this must have changed as they used to go to the firing range at Trawsfynydd army camp to practise firing.

The round, white tents of the camp would be in rows and the animals were tethered in rows on 'standings'. A bugle would be blown when it was time for feeding and watering the animals at the river.

One local I spoke to could remember the Indians kneeling, praying in rows and the murmuring sound of their praying." "

(an account of their time in Porthmadog courtesy of Giovanna Bloor from Llanfrothen)


This is an account of the Men of the Royal Indian Service Corps Mule Company with their 1,000 Mules. they came out at Dunkirk their story is the following.

http://www.cwgc.org/foreverindia/sto...ndian-army.php



Ivor

gosh it really was busy then! fascinating.

hello again, well I have now picked up my Grandma's ATS records from my mum - a nightmare of abbreviations so that will be fun but I can now see what my mum means, nothing matches up for them having met at all when they said they did. They said they met in January 1942. So in January 1942 Frank was in Killyleagh and she was in Lichfield. She ceased to be attached to NCOs in Lichfield at the end of January but he was then posted to 31st battalion RWF at Lichfield in February. I think she was in Chester by then although she does seem to have been back at Lichfield by their wedding going by the entries and it doesn't actually say she moved in any of that time just that she was no longer attached to those barracks. But if she was there then she would have known he was in hospital in Bangor that summer and that he had two week long periods of leave without her and she had one without him and he wasn't recorded as having the 72hrs leave she was for their wedding and they went to Wales to Beddgelert for a couple of days of honeymoon I believe. Unless they didn't and just said they had? Oh I am now even more confused.

Mum is starting to think she is a figment of her own imagination.