Staying in the EU

Nowadays I try to stay out of UK internal matters on this forum. Only this is a matter for all Europe. Brexit, Grexit or what ever could be Gexit, Frexit or Swexit.

Think an infantry batallion, where the companies and platoons are independent, and takes on whatever tasks they like. That would probably not work out well.

Nor would any kind of exit from the EU in my mind. We need to stay strong for the Russians and The US. We also need the free movement between our countries, and a good police cooperation. Exit means we go back at least a century, to when every country in Europe did as they pleased. That did not go very well a hundred years or so ago.

Best of luck with your referendum, but personally I dread a Brexit and what the consequenses will be.

And that's why we are a member of NATO nothing to do with being in the EU and with regards to Police cooperation nothing will change that we will continue to share information.

For my two cents worth, you'd have to say that since the end of WW2 our Western nations have been gradually manipulated, bit by bit, into giving up almost everything that we once loved and stood for. Collectively our societies are thoroughly fractured and to stay the course is to take the path to sure doom. In both world wars we had our own 'safe havens'...I mean atleast we had our own turf with which to stage our defences when attacked. Not now. What we have now is a humongous Trojan Horse. Wheeled in with annual political promises that things will get better, when they actually won't. So, when will its troopers emerge? The common gut feeling, is there such a thing, is that there must be a possibility, surely, that 'someone' just has to "flick the switch" and those troopers will not so magically appear, as they are amoungst us already, and then it will be on for young and old. If change is not made the outcome is certainly doom and gloom. Evidence... look at the minutae of changes we have been somewhat 'forced' to endure, the concessions, and each one just another step backwards, but taken as a whole it's a whole act of breakdown. It's not a strain on the brain to think that our apparent backslide is something of a deliberate, concerted, yet gradually paced, attempt at wholesale cultural genocide. There's that old saying, "You can fool some of the people some of the time but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.". More and more people are not being fooled. Just look at politics in the US, just look at the politics in Europe. Something is coming. Our grandfathers seemed to have died in droves only so that some obscure, yet clearly international, common religeo-political force could slip in under the radar and systematically parcel us off into foreign ownership. That force has to be stopped.

Just watching the debate on BBC can some one tell the Mayor of London that Australia is not part of NATO

And if Mr Trump gets elected, the US might withdraw. Scary thought!

Lars

If that happens best we start learning Russian

Vodca dar dar dar

Not lived in Wales for many years now so can someone tell me why they have just bitten the hand off the person that feeds them

hi folks..
So England has voted to leave.. NOTE. NOT Scotland or Northern Ireland. the financial markets are in turmoil.The P.M. is to Resign. his Replacement Will Be Elected by Party Members. So a PM who is Un-elected by the People (ring any bells with Brussels). Any way, until Clause 50 of the Treaty of Brussels is activated the 2 year leave period does not start. it may be of interest that a number of Euro skeptic Cons are saying. well we should wait a bit before we do this, Liam Fox for one.
We are Still in EU. and will be for many years. this Referendum has NO LEGAL standing it was JUST ADVISORY. So do not get too excited we ain't left yet, and may not do so for many years. There will be a Hell of a lot more talking to be done yet. Scotland are already talking about another Referendum over a split with the UK. this will happen so bye bye UK, if Clause 50 is triggered.

ivor

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Originally Posted by vori101

hi folks..
So England has voted to leave.. NOTE. NOT Scotland or Northern Ireland. the financial markets are in turmoil.The P.M. is to Resign. his Replacement Will Be Elected by Party Members. So a PM who is Un-elected by the People (ring any bells with Brussels). Any way, until Clause 50 of the Treaty of Brussels is activated the 2 year leave period does not start. it may be of interest that a number of Euro skeptic Cons are saying. well we should wait a bit before we do this, Liam Fox for one.
We are Still in EU. and will be for many years. this Referendum has NO LEGAL standing it was JUST ADVISORY. So do not get too excited we ain't left yet, and may not do so for many years. There will be a Hell of a lot more talking to be done yet. Scotland are already talking about another Referendum over a split with the UK. this will happen so bye bye UK, if Clause 50 is triggered.

ivor

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You forgot Wales

Hi
Sorry about that not deliberate just hadn't seen the figures. But just 3.4% is not really convincing. The whole majority nationally is Only 3.8%. This may not be a Large enough Majority for the Gov to activate Clause 50. it is certainly Not Convincing. the Scotland vote 62% to 38%. Has to be given a very great deal of thought, this, to me, would mean that the Westminster gov would not have the authority to pull them out with the UK. Without a great deal of Trouble.


ivor

Ivor I go back to my last question as I have not been living in Wales for many years why have they bitten off the hand that feeds them

hi.

Oh Dear i was hopeing you had forgotten that bit. Well, now some people are not going to like this. From the start of the campaign, and the reason i have kept out of most discussions, is that the ''Leave'' campaign has been 'Mushrooming' the people, Keeping them in the dark and feeding them ''Bull****''.
The whole thing was never about immigration or Money for the NHS. The 350Bn painted on the 'leave ' bus was fiction which was proved but it was not removed.
But with regard to your Question, if you look at post ''36'' it would seem that a lot of welsh were for remain so did not wish to ''Bite off the hand...''. so what happened. With such a small majority, it may have been down to''Leavers'' using their own transport to ferry their supporters to the Polling Stations. and it is certainly not a big enough majority to pull the country out.


ivor

Another interesting point, will the British Army be back policing the boarders of Northern Island. How will the vote to leave impact on the Belfast Agreement of 1998, which was the cornerstone of the peace settlement in that anyone born in NI., has the right to be a citizen of the U.K., or the Republic or both. which would mean that one could be a EU citizen and yet not be EU citizen. No doubt this will be addressed in the coming months or will it. Yet I have the gut feeling that the shot will fall once again on the poor British squalid, who will find himself policing the boarders of NI.

Read your post with interest Ivor then googled the point you make to find you were correct in stating its not legally binding and can be overturned in parliament. I am not on any social media site but my next door neighbor has a son who is and is of an age that this decision will effect him.He tells me that many people voted to leave not reliasing the full consequences of what they had done and having Seen what has occurred now regret that decision.I see that the first minister of Scotland is again thinking of a referendum as she believes that Scotland wishes to remain in the EU but if she is not happy with this result then Iwould have thought that this would be a better course of action for her with the number of SMPs Labour,conservative and many others who would outnumber the leave MPs by 2--1 this decision could easily be overturned but it would take a brave man to start this off.Of course we could have a general election and a party could run on the promise of joining the EU as part of its manifesto. I just hope that we have not cut off our nose to spite our face.One last point I watched Ed Balls on TV last night and he made a comment "don't be surprised if the EU come back with a compromise to put to the British people in a referendum " As it stands at the moment we will just have to wait and see if the decision made by the British public is the right one I just have a sickly feeling that we have messed up the future of our children and grand children

The EU also has egg on its face. If Merkel had handled the negotiations better with Dave and given him something better to convince the UK public regarding immigration etc the vote may well have been different. By the way I voted out and would do so again

Morning Folks
This makes for some interesting reading.

http://www.standard.co.uk/business/a...-a3272621.html


ivor

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Originally Posted by vori101

Morning Folks
This makes for some interesting reading.

http://www.standard.co.uk/business/a...-a3272621.html


ivor

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thanks for that Ivor however you now got to find enough MPs with balls to vote it down,they will protect their own backs making sure they get their seat back at the next general election and not do something that's best for the country.I voted out and would do so again however what worries me is the uncertainty that it has caused and this will carry on for the next few years and now they are talking about a general election as well.

hi.
yes i think another G.E is very likely. as any replacement for DC is going to be an ''Un elected PM'' and i doubt if that would give them the authority to Negotiate any new deal. But if that article is correct, and i suspect it is, then i can not see an Act of Parliament getting through. As you say. the uncertainty is the problem. i read an article re British Holidaymakers in Greece being unable to change 'British £' in their Hotel, no one knew what the rate of exchange was. I suspect it will get worse for a while until the 'Dust Clears'


ivor

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Originally Posted by vori101

hi.
yes i think another G.E is very likely. as any replacement for DC is going to be an ''Un elected PM'' and i doubt if that would give them the authority to Negotiate any new deal. But if that article is correct, and i suspect it is, then i can not see an Act of Parliament getting through. As you say. the uncertainty is the problem. i read an article re British Holidaymakers in Greece being unable to change 'British £' in their Hotel, no one knew what the rate of exchange was. I suspect it will get worse for a while until the 'Dust Clears'


ivor

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I also read tourists were having trouble changing money in the USA and Australia and other countries

Just watching Farage giving his speech in Brussels he has done us no favours at all I voted out don't regret but I didn't wake up Friday morning and feel great about it I knew the pound and stock markets would take a hit and we will now pay for it we may get out of being ruled by Brussels but they are now talking about us having access to the single market which we may well get but they are going to make us pay for that and in reality will cost us more then £350 million a week that the leave campaign said we could save.Osborn has said to expect tax raises and government spending so thinks are going to get a loss worst before getting better I suggest you hold on to your hats

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Originally Posted by jones20

Ivor I go back to my last question as I have not been living in Wales for many years why have they bitten off the hand that feeds them

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Is there a price on Freedom, democracy and Sovereignty?

You forgot to mention stupidly

Fear of the unknown scaremongering doom and gloom most of the remain stamping their feet the jocks crying into their watered down whiskey northern Irish wobbling in their Guinness 27 EU members screaming you will pay but let's be honest no one knows nothing no one can say with certain what will happen me I do know I voted out right or wrong me I do believe in my country me I do believe all will be well in time to come without the EU telling us with out the EU making demands on us we can trade with the whole world we can deport foreign prisoners we can deport illegal immigrants we can still have legal immigration we will be just as safe and I believe my children and grandchildren will be better off independent from the EU just saying stupidity or not

It will be interesting to see if the scots go for a referendum whist in scotand it was a remain vote by one million votes what is not mentioned is 1.3 million scots did not vote.The EU will go out of the way to allow scotland in to spite the rest of us.But what they need to remember is at the moment they have self rule and if they went into the EU that would end Brussels would then tell them what to do.At the end of the day she does not want to be remember as the First Minister of Scotland but the First President of Scotland.As I have said before lets cut them loose and all the money we send up to them can be diverted to the rest of the UK and by the way our submarine fleet comes south of the border along with the 6000 jobs that go with it

OK good people we voted and we are out of the EU, so less of the bickering and time to get on with our lives ...

hi.

Dave. Sorry Buddy but We Are Not Out of The EU. You need to check the Facts. The Referendum was only Advisory and has No Legal Standing. We are Still in until at least 2 years after Clause 50 is triggered, if it is ever. The Final Decision re Clause 50 is down to the Government NOT the Referendum, and as the greater part of the MP's seem to be for remain Brexit may never happen. IT is highly probable that the House of Lords would not pass it.
I doubt that any Government would risk the Break up of the UK. Scotland becoming Independent and NI rejoining with the rest of Ireland. A majority of just 3.8% is too close for comfort. So as you say, let us get on with our lives as Members, for the Foreseeable future, of the EU.


ivor

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Originally Posted by vori101

hi.

Dave. Sorry Buddy but We Are Not Out of The EU. You need to check the Facts. The Referendum was only Advisory and has No Legal Standing. We are Still in until at least 2 years after Clause 50 is triggered, if it is ever. The Final Decision re Clause 50 is down to the Government NOT the Referendum, and as the greater part of the MP's seem to be for remain Brexit may never happen. IT is highly probable that the House of Lords would not pass it.
I doubt that any Government would risk the Break up of the UK. Scotland becoming Independent and NI rejoining with the rest of Ireland. A majority of just 3.8% is too close for comfort. So as you say, let us get on with our lives as Members, for the Foreseeable future, of the EU.


ivor

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ivor what's come first MPs voting or article 50 being signed

Hi.
A very good question. and i must admit i am not sure. But i would think it likely that the MPs would have to vote on it first. I very much doubt that the PM alone would have the authority.As i said before there is an added problem here. as DC is resigning the authority of his replacement is possibly open to question( elected by the party). and i strongly suspect that a General Election will be called. If this should happen then i suspect that the Main Campaigning point will be the EU membership. and only on this result would Clause 50 be triggered.
However this is only my opinion. i will look into this.


ivor

Hi again.
the following is an extract from a page re the Treaty which is linked below.
I believe that the Wording of the last line refers to a Parliamentary Vote, with whatever that entails.


The exit process is triggered by a letter, or perhaps an email. If Britain votes to leave, this only becomes a legal reality once the prime minister informs the European Council, which is made up of the president and 28 heads of state and government. The clause makes clear that it is for the member state to decide to start the exit process -- the trigger cannot be pulled by anyone else. Only the British government can decide when to invoke Article 50.

https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...EU-Treaty.html



ivor

hi again.
Let me just add something which may clear up some Confusion. in the article i linked.#57 one para states that
'' MP's are Representatives not Delegates. The difference being they are there to decide what ... In Their Judgement is good for us and the Country, Not simply to do what we say''.

The article further suggests that as many as 70% of MP's are for Remain. 20% for leave and 10% undecided. If these figures are close to being correct, i can not see C50 being triggered any time soon.



ivor

hi folks.
Nearly 3 months down the line from the vote and Nothing has changed, Nothing. we are still in the EU. and No one has any idea where we go from Here. Great. the following is a link to a Guardian Article from Sat 10th. Never mind the politics of the Newspaper. the article makes interesting reading..


https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...uded-brexiters



ivor

The trouble is if they don,t carry out the wishes of the vote then come the next General Election they start to look for a new job because people have long memories and they will not vote them back in.

Hi all.
The problem is that they don't have to do anything, the vote was non binding with No Legal basis. But there is another problem. you say about the public reaction to their wishes not being carried out. i think there may be a very strong reaction to having been Lied to. There is also a problem with the size of the Majority. 3.8% is a very small figure which could disappear very quickly. i have read, somewhere, that in a recent poll this figure has gone. the remain folks are back in the lead. the PM is in a very tricky situation. she has to be seen to be doing something, but the realistic situation is that it will be extremely difficult if not a Disaster it we do pull out. this is becoming more obvious as time goes on. take the Japanese threat to pull out this should be taken very seriously. The UK of the 21st C is totally different from pre EU days. we have ''Sold Off '' so much of our industry to foreign investors that i do not see how we can survive if they withdraw their support.For Example. the Steel Industry, and this is just one industry. We have become To Reliant on Foreign Investment. I think there is an element of 'Going through the Motions' but in the end it will prove to be an impossibility to get out. While i have some idea of Constitutional law, which nobody is talking about yet, it will take Acts of Parliament to do it. which with the current make up of M.P's is unlikely to happen. This is going to run for many, many years.

"Brexit means Brexit and we're going to make a success of it."
Theresa May

" i think there may be a very strong reaction to having been Lied to."
VORI 101

Is Theresa going to lie as well?

Strange I have spoken to many people who voted to remain yet given the chance again they would vote out I have yet to meet someone who voted out but would vote to remain in.But I am getting peed off with these people who lost the vote keeping on about it had the vote gone the other way I would have accepted that and not made a song and dance about it thats why we live in a democracy whilst I agree with you on the fact that it has no legal basis the majority of the people voted out.If we had a general election and the same winning party only had a majority of 3.8% would we accept that the answer is yes we would the people have voted so.If people are not happy with the decision then vote with your feet and leave the uk.On a final note my mate works with a load of Polish workers and when he spoke to them about it they said had they had the vote then they would have voted the same way has the rest of the country leave the EU so what does that tell you, also one last thing lies where told but they were told by both sides

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vori101

Hi all.
The problem is that they don't have to do anything, the vote was non binding with No Legal basis. But there is another problem. you say about the public reaction to their wishes not being carried out. i think there may be a very strong reaction to having been Lied to. There is also a problem with the size of the Majority. 3.8% is a very small figure which could disappear very quickly. i have read, somewhere, that in a recent poll this figure has gone. the remain folks are back in the lead. the PM is in a very tricky situation. she has to be seen to be doing something, but the realistic situation is that it will be extremely difficult if not a Disaster it we do pull out. this is becoming more obvious as time goes on. take the Japanese threat to pull out this should be taken very seriously. The UK of the 21st C is totally different from pre EU days. we have ''Sold Off '' so much of our industry to foreign investors that i do not see how we can survive if they withdraw their support.For Example. the Steel Industry, and this is just one industry. We have become To Reliant on Foreign Investment. I think there is an element of 'Going through the Motions' but in the end it will prove to be an impossibility to get out. While i have some idea of Constitutional law, which nobody is talking about yet, it will take Acts of Parliament to do it. which with the current make up of M.P's is unlikely to happen. This is going to run for many, many years.

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BREAKING: Theresa May has asked Mauricio Pochettino to lead Brexit negotiations as he's managed to get Spurs out of Europe in just 2 months.

Hi guys.
some interesting reading for you all...https://www.theguardian.com/politics...han-we-thought




ivor

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vori101

Hi guys.
some interesting reading for you all...https://www.theguardian.com/politics...han-we-thought




ivor

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Well it is the guardian

By election tomorrow in Lincolnshire will be interesting to see who wins that one.