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Jim.
Good Morning.
A very interesting find , my friend.
I would never have considered that the US would have had any documentation from 1940. I suppose they just hoovered up anything in their path and never gave it back to mod. however this may account for their apparent lack of knowledge.
can we now get access to these documents. i have very little trust in MI and even less in USMI.
ivor
Hello Ivor,Quote:
Originally Posted by vori101
I am assuming that these were part of some war crimes evidence as the St Venant trials were overseen by American,British and Canadian personnel? Acces to these documents has been available (Im told) for some time now on an American History Research Site called `FOLD3` which is owned by `Ancestry` I will see what I can find out . Thinking aloud here are those `Grave cards` the ones now in `Private` hands?
Best
Jim
hi Jim.
further thoughts re ''Grave Cards''.
the impression i have is that the Frenchman has 'files'.while our authorities may not be prepared to accept them i suspect that the US. JAG. may not have the same problem. It may well be that these '' Cards'' are 'index cards' with info extracted from the French files. We will have to see.
Good Luck.
ivor
HQ BAOR also investigated war crimes, just possible any of the files have not yet been transferred to the NA.
Thanks to Tony we have viewed these `American records` The Mayors file is simply an instruction on what colour cards German and Foreign graves are to be recorded on and the procedure for viewing these there are no actual cards.
File two related to GERMAN graves at St Venant 40 cards showing original field grave, cemetery, name, unit and date of birth where known. From these cards the majority of SS Germania graves are in the region of rue de guarbecque (Royal Berks and D Comp 2 DLI). The other areas re- Rue de Busnes etc appear to be units associated with 3 Panzer Div. The FOLD3 search is a nightmare
Jim
Thanks Jim so nothing of much use there then
thanks guys.
typical.
but, if there is a procedure for viewing these cards that should possibly give a clue to where they are, and can the procedure still be followed.
with regard to FOLD 3 is this a possible '' we have to release this. but we don't have to make it easy '' thing. remember they didn't even tell the Germans who were investigating ''War Crimes '' about it.
ivor
A little info on a possible perpetrators of the killings in the area
A little research comes up with Rudolf Dix "Ustuf (Untersturmfuher) (leutnant) with the LSSAH (Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler) they were attached to the SS VT division in France and would likely have been in the St Venant area at the time, They were responsible for the massacre of bout 80 POWs of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment nr Wormhoudt not far from Dunkirk.
Dave.
this was the guy i wrote about. but i lost my link to him.
a very good candidate.
ivor
Though so mate, just so happens he was OC 3 Zug (platoon) of 8 Kompany 2 Battalion under Otto Baum who was in command at the time of the Wormhoudt massacre for which he was incidently never brought to trial, was at some time member of the Totenkoph division and most photos of him show him wearing the deaths head collar patch rather than the SS runes (ring any bells from a previous post).
LSSAH was I reserve for Amy group B at this time and therefore would have been following up the Division as it moved forward to clear stragglers from the area.
A file sent to us mentions a man with a pistol and another with a bayonet it seems obvious to me the one with the pistol is likely an officer.
At the time they were still in Army Group B Reserve.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcdl12976
John
hi Dave.
when you look at the records there was only one prosecution from the 1940's and that was of Fritz Knochlien in 1948, for La Paradis Massacre. the only other recorded for 1940 was that at Wornhoudt. from which there where NO witnesses.
The problem appears to be that, whilst La Paradis shocked even the SS and records were kept by them. But a couple of soldiers shot in the Hospital at St Venant or Calonne and no doubt other places as well. were of little concern. so there would be no record, except a Death Cert. So unless these records can be found i fear we are stuck.
ivor
I doubt the SS were in the habit of issuing death certificates for the Allied prisoners they shot.
John
hi John.
i was thinking of PoW's shot while in hospital. i assume that a death cert would have been issued by a member of the staff.
ivor
John.
you say that SS VT were in the reserves at the time, but as the Germans took Haverskirk on 26th i think it was. what would be the chances of the reserves being in the area by 29th.
ivor
The Leibstandarte was much further to the north, between St Omer and Calais, on the 26th. From there they advanced east towards Wormhoudt.
As most civilians in the area had fled and did not return until the first week of June, I don't think there would be many hospital staff left to fill in forms. Those civilian attendants still functioning would have had more important things to worry about. And besides, filling in forms for patients just murdered by the SS would probably have been a very bad idea in any case.
Identification in most cases was not effected until the temporary graves were relocated, and then in a rather haphazard way. The extant grave lists demonstrate that only too clearly. Misspelled names, wrong numbers, no names or numbers at all.
John
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baconwallah
Tony, I assume you meant to post a comment on your last post mate. ?
good day all.
John, i have been looking at ''the Order of Battle'' regarding Army Group B. and accepting that there may be some errors, it makes interesting reading.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_o...ce#OKH_Reserve
on the above link, if you scroll down the reserves, This is a Lot of Men and Equipment. holding in a relatively small area.
If my reading is correct this area is networked with ditches and Canals, and that makes it,as you, an ex tankie will know well not suitable for tank warfare. This was a concern with ''High Command'' and part of the reason for the 'Stop' order. several of the field commanders were of the opinion that the tanks should be saved as the terrain was more suitable for Infantry as the approach to Dunkirk was considered a ''mopping up'' exercise.
Now, we have 2 SS Divisions the SS VT and the SS ''Der Fuhrer'' as well as the SS ''Adolph Hitler '' Reinforced Regiment. This is a lot of highly mobile SS men. so i would question the accuracy of knowing where any particular group of men were at any given time. especially as they were out of the ''action ''.
I would not be surprised if some one like Dix would be capable of going off on his own initiative seeking some murder and mayhem. As an SS Lt i doubt he would have been challenged very often.
With regard to the Death Cert's to an extent i would agree with you. But, with regard to the Local Hospital at St Venant. yes staff may have left, it would depend on their dedication to their patients. But in the case of Calonne that would not apply as this was a German Post.
now, finally.The Men shot in the hospital at St Venant were Known, i think that there is a very strong probability that Sid was one, the two who possibly were shot in Calonne, were known. These were not Field Grave Exhumations 18 months later and even Anthony's lack of ''Dog Tags '' may not have been a problem presumably he would have had his Pay Book. Also i do not think the issue of 'Death Certs '' would have been a problem to whatever med staff were there. as once the murders had been committed the perps moved on.
ivor
To get from where LAH was assembling for the attack on the Dunkirk perimeter to Saint Venant, Dix would have had to move across the divisional areas of 20 Inf Div, 29th Motor Div, 6th Pz Div, 8th Pz Div and SS Verf Div. From St Venant to Merville, add 3rd Pz Div and SS Totenkopf Div. I would call that impossible, even with air support from several squadrons of flying pigs.Quote:
Originally Posted by vori101
Yes, people were shot in hospitals. But they too would be buried more or less where they fell, next to the aid post. Aid post moved on, graves remained - often in the middle of nowhere. And keeping records of shot prisoners would have been hazardous in the extreme, especially for Wehrmacht personnel. Even had they cared, which they probably didn't anyway.
John
John.
the map tells me that St Omer is about 16 miles from St Venant. about 25 mins drive. less if they were south of the place. and if my memory is correct 3pz etc were to the east of St Venant. any way Dix had been photographed with ''deaths head ''badges on.
i have stood down the squadrons of flying pigs.
ivor
LAH was halfway between St Omer and Gravelines, Ivor, not south of St Omer.
A 25 k drive on a peaceful day in spring is not quite the same as the same distance across the divisional areas of three infantry and two armoured divisions in a contested advance, I am afraid. And then there were refugees, shot up roads, traffic jams with horse drawn corps artillery and all the other mod cons of 1940.
Make no mistake about the SS discipline. They may have been a threat to all and sundry, but within the Div and Corps discipline was discipline. A commander leaving his unit to go on a killing spree thirty miles down the road would have found himself in serious trouble indeed. Not for the killing but for his disobedience.
John
Dave, sorry about that but I was having a hell of a time trying to type out a complete sentence. The words kept breaking up and running into each other.
In the meantime, I asked Jim the question I was going to ask on here. It was a geographical question about Saint Venant, so, no harm done.
Thanks again,
Tony
John.
Mon Ami, you have defended your position admirably and for this i salute you. I might have awarded you a medal, but i do not have any handy.a accept your arguments. it would not have been a Sunday Afternoon drive in the country. It is a pity as he seemed a natural for the part.
And i fully agree with you regarding the discipline within the SS. this is highlighted by the reaction of the SS Officers who found the ''La Paradise'' aftermath. I think that Knochlien became a marked man by his own people.
But.
in post #690, Dave poses the following question.
', was at some time member of the Totenkoph division and most photos of him show him wearing the deaths head collar patch rather than the SS runes'
is there a possibility of him transferring between the units.
this is my parting shot.
ivor
Very unlikely, Ivor. The Totenkopf regiments consisted of former concentration camp guards. A man from the Leibstandarte, Hitler's bodyguard, would not have relished a transfer.Quote:
Originally Posted by vori101
Re Dix: i can't find any photo of him so can't deny or confirm his membership of the Totenkopf. Two notes, if I may: 1/ it may have been a pre-war uniform; 2/ there was at least one other Rudolf Dix.
John
thanks John.
Dave had the link so we will have to ask him.
in the meantime i will look around
good night
ivor
Nos da Ivor.
John
Good Morning all.
John.
you were right there were 2 Rudolf Dix. one we can forget
1) Rudolf Dix B 1884 D 1952.
a lawyer who was part of the defence team at Nuremburg. was at sometime a member of the German Gentleman's Club. and certainly not Pro Nazi. so i think we can forget him.
2) i have a one line entry from an '' Axis History Forum''.
'SS Pz Gren Rg2 (20.9.43)
18. (AUFKL) Komp. SS.OSTF Rudolf Dix.
still looking
ivor
i think i have the right guy.
Ostuf. Rudolf Dix
Postby Moniroth You-Bell on 12 Apr 2013, 07:16
Ostuf. Rudolf Dix
B:16.12.19
Ostuf. 18(Aufkl.)/SS-PGR.2 9.43
Ostuf. LSSAH 4.42
Ustuf. 8./LSSAH 12.40
SS:357248 Ostuf:20.4.42
while i have no real idea of German.I suspect this is an extract of his service record. Promoted to I/C 8 Pl 12.40. and to Lt on 20.4.42. So prior to 12/40 he was just an OR maybe NCO.
Both these within the ''Adolph Hitler''. No Mention of ''Totemkopf''.
I wonder. could he have used 'False Insignia' to cover up his actions.
will keep looking
ivor
Ivor, sorry mate but I cant find the site I found the reference to Totenkoph now so I guess we have to consider that a no no
Quite correct, Ivor. Dix was a 2nd Lt (Unterscharführer), age 20, at the time of the Fall of France. He is not mentioned in any of the books I have on the subject of the SS and must have been a very obscure junior officer who never rose past the rank of Lt.Quote:
Originally Posted by vori101
John
I might be able to help a little more on this but I am waiting on the postman to deliver me a copy of the `St Venant trial papers` I don't know if it actually came to trial but these are the papers detailing the suspects and the units involved I am reliably informed ? We will see of course, I must point out that there are no mentions of Anthony in the file and they concentrate on the `four` adopted cases,
In respect of the `deaths head` insignia it has to be remembered that German Army Panzer units also wore a skull insignia on their lapels...............OOooops Is that the door bell?
Jim
Jim I look forward to the suspects list, yes I meant to mention about the Panzer units deaths head but clean forgot. There was instance of the Russians mistakenly executing Panzer troops in there black uniforms with deaths head collar patches believing them to be SS
John.
as it took him 16 months to go from 2nd to Lt, i think there is a distinct possibility he may have been killed before he could progress any further. as i understand it he was killed somewhere in the east.
Wouldn't surprisae me, Ivor.Quote:
Originally Posted by vori101
John
John.
Maybe you can answer this. Would the SS remove their own people if they ''broke the rules''. I was looking through ''Fieldgraw net'' for any possible ref to Dix, and an item in it referred to an execution of an Officer. i think it was in German so i didn't bother with it. I know that discipline was quite hard in the SS but that seems a bit extreme.
ivor
That certainly happened, ivor. Discipline was harsh, lapses were not tolerated. Mind you, their idea of right and wrong was rather different from ours.
As an afterthought: discipline within the SS was rather like the discipline of the Freikorps, the volunteer companies who fought the socialist and communist insurrections in Germany in 1918-1920. A crime against the group or its members would be punished quickly and without compassion, a crime against outsiders on the other hand was rarely a problem.
John
Well the file arrived but I have yet to look at it in detail but while we wait I`m afraid I`m going to add a little fuel to the `Dix` fire. I do not think you have the right `Dix`. There are lots of Dixs and there are five listed on the German `Grabersuche Online` all killed in action/died . One is an Oberstumbanfuhrer Rudolf Herman Dix born 16th February 1917 presumably by the rank a member of the SS .There is no recorded date of death for him but he died on the Eastern Front .Rudolf Hermann Dix has not yet been transferred to a military cemetery and according to their information his grave is still at the following location : Zhitomir - Ukraine. Another possibility for you Ivor?Quote:
Originally Posted by vori101
Jim
Thanks Jim.
first. may i wish you all a Happy New Year.
My friend i am only too pleased that you have found some more as mine appears very unlikely. so well done.
ivor
morning .
and a happy new year to all.
Once the LSSAH was taken out of the picture, then the ''Totenkopf'' takes it's place. They were active in the area. So i have been looking at their activity after May 40. interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_SS_...emjansk_Pocket
this puts them in the area.
see following link.
http://www.distancefromto.net/between/Kharkov/Zhytomyr
so i think your Rudolf Hermann Dix could be a very strong candidate. He appears to be in the right places at the right times and even dies in the right area. Maybe we should look at him in more detail if possible.
Dave this could be the guy you found the photo's of.
ivor