saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

[ivor43]

hi all.
Drew. there is the possibility that the reluctance to publish could be related to the ''Cause of Death'' if the circumstances were, shall we say ''unusual''. mention has been made in this thread to the habits of an S.S. officer Dix.


ivor

[Drew5233]

That won't be it. I have loads of War Crimes files that contain photographs, some of them name the Air Crew remains exhumed after the war and show bullet holes in the skull. One (which freaked me out a bit when it fell out of an envelope) even contained the ID disc of a Guards officer executed in Italy. The disc was taken from his dead body later by a villager who witnessed the murder and it found it's way to the investigation file.

[ivor43]

hi.
Thanks Drew. as you say, you have War Crime Files which by their nature will be fairly detailed for they would form part of a prosecution. I am not sure that the files Jim is referring to would be that detailed.
With War Crime files we would know we were dealing with murders, so the evidence, photo's etc are bound to be fairly graphic. As a trainee cop in the late 60's this type of file was used with some of the lectures.
But for those deaths not subject to the above then it may come as a shock to some to find that the death of a relative may not have been what they thought. The whole purpose of this thread is to try and establish the where and how and why, when Anthony Corkhill was alive on 27.5.40 and thought to not be seriously wounded,then Dead. on 29th.now we know of Sgt Griffith and the KORR man Dead on 29th in Calonne. In the Hospital???? very possible. if so then Very Possibly Murdered, and No One held responsible.maybe not what people would like to find out.


ivor

[Verrieres]

I was told the 'Medical Details' were a few chest ex-rays, hence why they would look at individual requests and release those that don't have them. I've not heard of them containing dental records although I'm happy to be proven wrong. Either way they should be opened. The positives of what might be achieved clearly outweighs the negatives of what these records may reveal. Would someone really care if they discovered a relative who died over 70 years ago had tooth decay or a chest infection?

I would love to see a couple of examples of these files to see if they actually contain anything of use.

Hello Drew,

The reply I received stated `medically detailed` I `assumed` perhaps wrongly that `German` medically detailed would perhaps be thorough ,complete with regard to every detail; not superficial or partial and contain amongst other things dental records I certainly didn't think it related to just a few x-rays there`s no point in closing such a file is there?
Trying to find a lead has been frustrating ,no one wants to help and the feeling is they would rather we went away I think its not through any hidden agenda simply to those we speak too its a 9-5 job nothing else and it happened a long time ago and at the end of the day they genuinely have no idea what we want and nor do they really care.
What we have found is there are post mortem records in Private hands and there were additional post mortems carried out by the War Office in 44-46 this has had to be dragged out of official sources, the enquiry into the mass grave at St Venant which the CWGC adviser denied existed despite it being on their website! Why transport 90 bodies out of Town from the bridge to the mass grave when the cemetery nearby had provided the battalions HQ ?
The casualty list with the Q reference, what`s the significance of Q80 is it an unsubstantiated report of Pte Corkhill`s death enough to give a date of death but not enough to identify a last resting place or falling short of an explaination to the family. No enquiry in the Missing Men File `DEAD` its definite. but how were they sure ? Is the Missing Men File complete by the Index it is ? Anthony`s will from his paybook how was it at the MoD if Anthony and presumably his paybook were lost?
No record of Anthony being taken prisoner, no record of Anthony receiving treatment Why? I thought the answer may have been in the German unknown files perhaps for May 29th 1940? If they didn't know it was Anthony then they would not have him recorded that would have cleared up the fact there was no record? When the SS entered the hospital in St Venant and began their own cleansing (M.Faivre) what are we to think? Perhaps Anthony was cleansed?
I know Ivor has long supported the idea that Anthony may have been amongst those buried behind the school at Calonne sur Lys it is possible, very possible! However Anthony is on the Canal Bank his injuries according to RSM Goddard not (in his opinion) too bad, yet the German Guards assess him as not been able to move over rough terrain, if he was picked up by German Field Ambulance where would they have taken him? Locally to be assessed before moving him on to a Hospital? Remember he died TWO days later, where and what happened in those two days ? Lets not forget Pte Walt died on the 29th May 1940 the same day as Anthony ,two days after he had pleaded for help himself bleeding from wounds termed by Sgt McLean as `fatal` If we find where Syd died would we find Anthony`s fate? Remember Syd is buried next to an unknown? That unknown who the CWGC told us they held no information on but they doubted it was Anthony Corkhill because (despite holding no info) they knew was a Corporal!!
So many questions ,so few answers but the answers lie somewhere. Despite not holding any information on Anthony Corkhill it appears his CWGC Memorial entry online has been prepped for `Additional Information`???

http://i.imgur.com/bwZ9IZH.jpg



Jim

[ap1]

hi.
But for those deaths not subject to the above then it may come as a shock to some to find that the death of a relative may not have been what they thought. The whole purpose of this thread is to try and establish the where and how and why, when Anthony Corkhill was alive on 27.5.40 and thought to not be seriously wounded,then Dead. on 29th.now we know of Sgt Griffith and the KORR man Dead on 29th in Calonne. In the Hospital???? very possible. if so then Very Possibly Murdered, and No One held responsible.maybe not what people would like to find out.
ivor

There is no evidence, not even slight, that Sgt Griffiths was murdered at the hospital in Calonne, or indeed even died at the hospital. The dates of death on CWGC sites is often out of sync with other official records, understandable with the vast amount of detail they were working with after the war. This has proved to be the case during the Kohima project that we ran last year, so although it states Griffiths died on the 29th. The earlier Kew File that I posted suggests he died on the 25th May and this is compelling. Why?

Elements of 1RWF (which was now split) were in Calonne on the 24/25 in strength. Indeed on several occasions sub-units moved towards St Floris and were then forced to return to Calonne. It's a fair bet if you died on the battlefield anywhere between Calonne/St Floris over this period, it was highly likely your comrades would have left you! Hence a burial at Calonne.

[ivor43]

Hi all.
I thought i knew a bit about what was going on in St Venant.Wrong. Drew. i have been reading the Post in WW2 Talk of the 20. Nov 11. entitled '' 6th Battalion Kings Own Royal Regiment''. Very interesting. IT confirms what i thought that they were approaching from the East.I had come across references to 223 Anti Tank Co. but i had not come across Any Reference to a KORR unit, B Co, any where near St Venant ( Page 313..Units in France and Belgium) which you had copied into the post.the problem here is there are very few dates in the book, i can only assume this was 23rd. However on the same day from the W.D. of 2/5 West Yorkshire they were withdrawing from Robecq. D Co to St Floris and A Co to Calonne. It records the withdrawal of KORR through the Yorks and Lancs, a probable error. Into this we also have , in the evening of 23rd, 1 RWF with it's carriers. approaching from the east. This causes me a problem. However 2/5WY handed over St Floris to 2 DLI.
Now Al.I accept your comment about evidence. there is No Direct Evidence but there is possible Circumstantial Evidence for this. Unless we Know if Sgt Griffiths Was wounded or not we can not rule it out.
The other problem we have here is. By the 27th the fighting in the area had ceased, the front had moved on, any men left in the area were probably PoW's. We can infer from the comments to RSM Goddard that certain types of wounded were going to be treated in the Field hospital.this is why i wish to know if he was wounded.
Oh i think i was wrong with the name of the S.S. man it could have been LEX.


ivor

[Drew5233]

Oh i think i was wrong with the name of the S.S. man it could have been LEX.

I know that ******* - he murdered some BEF chaps in Nieppe Forest. One survived and escaped and got a MM for his troubles. His Escape and Evasion report has a sketch map of were the murders took place and I visited the area a few years ago. Lex was killed on the Eastern Front in 1944 so the investigation was dropped once he was found to be dead. He was with the SS Deutschland in 1940.

[Verrieres]

Update;- No acknowledgment from the MoD for the FOI request ,No reply within the statutory period. A courtesy email to the first MoD contact asking for an update has also been met with silence.The sheer arrogance is beyond belief.
On a more regrettable note Mr Brian Sim who helped me considerably with his expert knowledge of the relevant files at Kew and advised and provided so much to the search for Anthony Corkhill has died after a long illness. My condolences to Brian`s family.

Best wishes

Jim

[si chez]

Hi TC
You'll be relieved to know that the farm Isn't a bingo hall or a restaurant.
I think i may have found something for you. I read the diary of Captain Cyril Mosley Townsend 2nd Bn DLI. Madam Boulets Farm (Farm Boulet) was positioned on the crossroad junction of Rue De Hurtevent and Rue De Bas Hamel. I checked this and their is a couple of buildings there.one of them a farm.
I hope this helps.

Simon

[dcdl12976]

If this is correct then the farm was in the Royal Berks area only a few hundred yards from there HQ in Bas Hamel and about half a mile from where Dads section was hit by friendly fire and his mate killed.