saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

[Baconwallah]

John.
You have me puzzled here.

the 3rd SS Pz Division was Totemkopf.


ivor

The SS Totenkopf Div was a 'normal' [oversized] infantry division which would be reorganised as 3 SS PzGrenadier Div Totenkopf in Nov 1942 and 3 SS PzDiv Totenkopf in Oct 1943. The 3 Pz Div I mentioned was a division belonging to the Wehrmacht, the regular army, and recruited mainly in Berlin. It advanced between St Venant and St Floris, overrunning 2 DLI and 1 RWF HQs and taking the bridge across the Lys.

John

[teecee1941]

John, Ivor,

Thank you both for your quick replies. The penny has dropped I say, somewhat sheepishly. I can now see that although a death cert was issued, it was issued retrospectively and we have no way of knowing how long after Anthony's death it was issued. Perhaps it was only issued because I applied for it and the same applies to other families whose relatives died in circumstances that were not straightforward. Economically, it would not make sense to produce a death cert for every soldier who died, so you only get one if you ask for it.

I understand that Anthony's name was removed from the payroll on the day he is certified as having died, 29/05/40. Five years later, on the 29/05/45, Anthony's father, (my grandfather) wrote to RSM Goddard to ask if there was any news of his son. He stated that the Red Cross had given him details of the capture of RSM Goddard and Anthony lying wounded on the canal bank. It does seem that by the end of the war he had not been told by the War Dept that his son was dead in spite of the fact that he had ceased to be on the payroll.

Nothing we can do about it now, but to me, there is something not right about the date of Anthony's death.

[ivor43]

Tony.

I don't think you need to be sheepish about anything. what we are trying to do is extremely difficult. Trying to put ourselves in the position of 1940 is almost impossible.
What you say about the issue of the Death Cert may well be true But They Must Have the Record of the Evidence. If he died a PoW, then the record would be German. or would the word of a repatriated Soldier be sufficient. i personally doubt it.
What i find very odd is that the parents had not been informed. that he was a PoW at least.
Now, with regard to the payroll. I hope John can enlighten us on this. What happened to his pay card or record. As a PoW was he still entitled to be paid. Physically he was not able to draw his pay so would the record be kept up to date or would it have been calculated if and when he returned based on last pay date ? It would seem to me that to keep up a record probably would have been a waste of time as it was not known what happened to these men.
This would make it seem that an entry saying Dead 29/5/40 entered some years later would seem to have been made at the time. But this still does not explain where the evidence came from. The only possible explanation that i can see is if he was murdered then he was subject of the War Crimes investigation. but it was not fully investigated. But there has to be a report somewhere. We hope.

ivor

[Baconwallah]

Ivor, as far as I know (which isn't too far, I grant you) back pay would be calculated and paid uopon a PoW's return to the UK. What the system was for PoWs who died in captivity I can only guess. They would probably have calculated the back pay based on the Red Cross notification of death.

And you're quite right: the death date of 29th May, official from Nov 1941, must have been the result of information received. The Who, How and Why continues to elude us. But that report is what we must search for.

John

[ivor43]

Good Morning.

The Red Cross. For some reason (Age :((.?) i have not given them a thought. But after the last 2 posts i did, and maybe a few pennies dropped.
Tony said
'' He stated that the Red Cross had given him details of the capture of RSM Goddard and Anthony lying wounded on the canal bank.''
and John
''They would probably have calculated the back pay based on the Red Cross notification of death.''
To what level would they have been operating in this area at the time. Did a RC representative actually witness Anthony on the bank, or was it reported to them by Goddard.
We have info that a number of PoW's were shot in hospital and their ''Dog Tags'' removed. This would mean that although they were ''Known'' to the hospital they could not be, officially, identified by anyone else. We are aware of 2 shot in St Venant on 27th and believe that 2 may have been shot in Calonne on 29th. If they had no ''Tag's '' would they be recorded as unknowns even though the hospital had records ?
This leads me to believe that the Red Cross did not Officially know of Anthony at the time, they would only have recorded a number of unknowns.
As John says the Official record was amended in Nov 41 which is, i suspect, when the records were handed over to the authorities clearing the field Graves. This does not explain, why when the record was amended in 41 that his parents were not informed.
i think that a hospital file would have been sufficient evidence that he was dead.
i believe that this is the file we need. i would assume that it would be with the rest of the info re the 41/2 clearances.

ivor

[Baconwallah]

The RC did not accompany the fighting troops, Ivor. Their involvement was administrative: both sides would give the RC lists of captured enemy personnel, for communication to the other side. Not captured, not in the books.

John

[teecee1941]

Can anyone tell me how to retrieve 'saved' messages. I have spent all night typing a reply. For the second time in a few days, the letters keep joining up and often refuse to type. There must be a gremlin loose in the Forum at the moment.

After getting to the end of my message, I clicked 'post' only to find that I was no longer logged in and the message had disappeared.

Thanks,

Tony

[teecee1941]

Good evening one and all,

Sincere apologies for not replying earlier but I have been waiting for a reply from my MP which has not been forthcoming. I went to see him on Saturday to tell him that I was not very pleased that it was a year since I first asked for his help and no progress had been made. I came out of the seven minute meeting with him a little more hopeful than I was and was satisfied when he told me that he would give the case priority and chase up Philip Hammond.

That paragraph has taken me 15 minutes to type. There is something amiss with this forum. The letters keep joining together and words are missing letters. Can anyone do something about it, please. I will continue this message the way it comes out.

I said thought it was a digace tatI was able t purchase soldiers Wills an Service Records but wenever there sanything that wafree, it cold not be found. I have been ld tobieve that a ot f the ecords were destroyed but it seems tha tey nagd to keep the ones that wee moey spnners for the Authoites.

Sorry, but I give up until this is fixed. Surely I'm not the only one to encounter this fault.


Tony

[dcdl12976]

I have the same problem plus usually the first time I try to type a message in the individual letters go DOWN the page instead of across

[Verrieres]

Hello Tony/Dave,

Exactly the same problem here however I believe it may be a conflict with IE11 rather than the forum itself .I now use Google Chrome to access the forum and there appear to be no issues when typing.
Hopefully your visit to the MP will spark something in the MoD. Fingers crossed,

Jim