Frank Williams WW2 Wrexham TA, RWF mix of units, Killyleagh, Possible Commando time

[ap1]

Looking at 31 RWF. They were part of the "Home Forces" There is a file ref in the National Archive

http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...ils?Uri=C31294

screenshot69.jpg

[Anniek]

thank you everyone. I don't think we will ever find out quite what he did.

He always said that half of them didn't go to India due to pneumonia and my mum by chance met someone recently who said the same about his father who had been a commando. I must get that story out of her properly - my parents met him in a stately home or something. So the pneumonia could explain one hospital visit or perhaps a couple but I would be surprised if it was more than that. He also apparently went to the docks to collect his 'troop' (is that what they were called?) when they came back from India and he was horrified to discover that their bags had been looted by the dockers. I don't know when they came back but that could possibly have been when he was a driver? although quite some coincidence to be going to collect the same men he had been training alongside if he was then in a different company/troop/battalion thing altogether (sorry I really haven't got the hang of the terminology here)

He definitely wasn't the one on the Roll of Honour, he wasn't killed until the 1970s.

[ivor43]

Hi folks.
I never said that the F Williams on the Roll of Honour was Frank, nor do i know that it was him on the Nominal Roll. All i am saying is that there is a F Williams on the Roll of 1 Commando. Which may be a coincidence but from what we have it is a Possibility. There is no F Williams on 2 Commando. Which was founded at the same time.
1 Commando was founded from men returned from Norway which Frank had done and he was 8 Independent unit. While this is not proof it fits Known Facts/Beliefs. So it has to be considered.
When we started we had a possibility and some info. i think we now have a lot more possibilities and some strong Probabilities. I do not believe we can ever successfully find out what went on,or what happened, unless something else turns up, like 1 Commando records. But i will not give up just yet. I like Mysteries. and this is a good one.



ivor

[ap1]

1 Commando was founded from men returned from Norway which Frank had done and he was 8 Independent unit.

Can you post the portion of the record that states "Independent Unit" Please Ivor. Obviously without seeing the record, its difficult for the rest of us to pick up on possible clues.

Cheers

[ivor43]

Hi.

as Requested.

http://www.commandoveterans.org/node/358


ivor

[ap1]

Thanks Ivor,

I think the "8th" on our Frank Williams service record refers to 8RWF. I don't see anything on the record that suggests he was a commando. Unless I've missed something. What I do think is maybe possible, that he was one of Stockwells men who deployed to Norway in May 1940. But that is only because of his family conversations. Gen Jon Riley is not aware of the name(he wrote Stockwells biog), but it was such an ad hoc group of men, quickly formed, from unlikely sources...effectively part time soldiers, doing the job of special forces, that anything in those dangerous times was possible. We will probably never know. Our final option is Swipers check of the war diary for that period.

[ivor43]

Hi Al.
Like you i have been going on info given not looking at the record too closely. but this AM i have and have to admit i can not find any indications of Commando. but i do not think that, in view of the situation at the time, we should ignore the possibility.
I think you said that the Commando units only got to Norway in time to fight a withdrawal action so i would think it quite possible that Stockwell was not aware of who was there.
You may well be right about it being the 8 RWF but i am puzzled as to why he would not have been posted to I.T.C, if that is Initial Training Course until 22/6/40. and on the same date posted to the 50th. Looking on the record posted by Anniek. the one with his Embodied Stamp. There are 4 entries in the 1st column with 2 authority entries:-
149/40 and 103/40. posted to I.T.C. 22/6/40
13/40 and 150/40. Posted to 50th. 22/6/40 Taken on Strength at Denbigh. 23/6/40
153/40 and 68/40. Granted war substantive rank. 27/8/40
153/40 and 90/40. Posted to 4th 22/9/40.

Might this not indicate that the original authority came from a different unit.
It might appear that Frank never went to I.T.C. It might be interesting to know if he was T.A. before 39, as he would have done Basic then so he could have been available immediately. and would that have made him eligible to Volunteer for Commando. If so then 8th may still have been the Independent unit.
There is another odd thing here the 50th. quote..

''On the 10th January 1940 the 7th Holding Battalion was formed at Denbigh in North Wales containing a King's Own company. The 7th Holding Battalion divided on 2nd June and it's King's Own company moved to Heysham Towers in Lancaster, to form the 50th Holding Battalion. The first operation of the 50th was to receive men just back from the British Expeditionary Force in France. In the autumn of 1940 the 50th Holding Battalion was converted to the 10th Battalion of the King's Own and joined the Northumberland Division, Brigaded in 225th Infantry Brigade - along with battalions from the King's and Border Regiments. The 10th Battalion was responsible for coastal defence in Northumberland. In September 1940 the battalion did its first formation training as part of the 59th Division. After this training they returned to the beaches. In November 1941 the 10th Battalion learned that the Northumberland Division was to break up. 10th King's Own were to be converted to a heavy tank regiment of the Royal Armoured Corps - becoming the 151st Regiment Royal Armoured Corps in January 1942, receiving Churchill tanks shortly afterwards.''

If the 50th was in Heysham from 2/6 would he have been taken on their strength in Denbigh when they were a Kings Own unit and not RWF. the 7th HB would have made more sense.

ivor

[ap1]

its almost impossible to unravel. Perhaps the war diary for the 8th Bn, may provide a clue, especially if it mentions volunteers for Norway.

During his period with 31 RWF at Litchfield, I do wonder if he was involved in Coastal Defence, in North Wales.

[ivor43]

hi.
Anniek.
did you say you had some records from earlier than the ones you scanned. If so was he TA before he Joined Up.



ivor

[Anniek]

Hello - thanks everyone for all of that work.

Yes he was TA. He joined the TA on June 6th 1939 (as he turned 20) in Llay and it says he was for the RWF and the 4th Battalion. He was called to colours on 2nd September 1939.

The medical section of his service and casualty form is covered up with what looks like a white sticky label just saying C2(HS) 2/10/45 MD 1/c Troops Donnington. There is something written under that but impossible to see if it is anything useful. Can see a date of 1940 sticking outon the right hand side of the label and next line ARD then XASC underneath on the 3rd line so no help there.

Mum looked at her parents wedding certificate and whilst her mother gave 2 addresses, her home one in Tyneside and her ATS posting one at High Legh, he only gave his home address in Llay, they married in uniform in Bucklow. So I am not sure if that indicates he was moving around a bit.

He only ever mentioned training in the mountains and killing the sheep, training in Benbecula which he was none too complimentary about as place to visit and one trip to Norway. He certainly never mentioned going anywhere else and it did sound like he missed most of the action with missing India through illness.

I think you are right, we will never work it out but it is proving to me all the confusion surrounding everything in the war. Thank you to everyone, hopefully it is at least proving interesting for you too.