Frank Williams WW2 Wrexham TA, RWF mix of units, Killyleagh, Possible Commando time

[Anniek]

We have just received records for both my grandfathers. One is very straightforward, easy to follow and ties in with everything we already knew. The other is proving confusing and I would be grateful for any help anyone can offer which might shed some light on some of it.

Frank Williams was initially in the TA, signed up in Llay, Wrexham in June 1939. He was embodied 2/9/39 into the 8th Unit RWF.
Jan 1940 Lance Corporal 8th unit
May 1940 Acting Corporal 8th Unit
June 1940 Posted to ITC Wrexham (assume this is Infantry Training Centre?)
22/6/40 posted to/TOS 50th HB (assume 50th Holding Battalion)
27/8/40 Corporal
22/9/40 Posted 4th unit Down Patrick
something in May 1941 about a Court Martial about allowing members of his guard to be improperly dressed and not inspecting the arms of his guard before dismounting? (he always said it was because he fell asleep on watch or something) - reduced to ranks
1-3/10/41 CRS Dromore
14/3/42 Posted to 31st Battalion RWF Lichfield
18-22/4/42 CRS Vanguard Bangor
Mar 1943 - SPP (is this Special Proficiency Pay?) granted
16-24/4/43 Military Hospital Abergale
5-12/5/43 CRS Portmadoc
12-23/6/43 CRS Portmadoc
17/12/43 Posted to Y List ASC (is ASC Army Service Corp? would make sense given the next entry)
27/1/44 Transferred to RASC as a driver and from here on very logical, easy to follow and matches what he said

SO this might look quite normal to everyone else, I don't know but from what this says he basically stayed in Wales and Ireland for the duration of the war and went into hospital a lot for completely unknown reasons.

What he SAYS he did in the war was commando training in Benbecula, something in Norway which shocked him a lot and he refused to ever talk about it but was upset when there was something on the TV about it many years later, just said he had been there, they had been on land for 48 hrs and been very heavily bombed. He also said that half his Battalion went to India but he didn't because he had pneumonia so then those who had been kept behind were sent to do other things but I don't understand why nothing is mentioned anywhere about him doing any commando training or going to Norway. I don't believe he invented all that. He was asked after the war to be an officer in the Pioneer Corp (?).

Any help or ideas of any way we might find out any more would be very gratefully appreciated. Very sadly he was killed alongside my Grandmother in the 1970s so there has been no opportunity to ask any questions.

There are no medals listed anywhere, not even the standard ones which I know he refused to claim as did my Grandmother and other Grandfather so I have no other information there.

thank you

[ap1]

A warm welcome Anniek.

At the outbreak of WW2. The military planners were concerned about Scandinavia. So in secret an allied force of divisional size was formed to halt any German advances through Norway etc. It was called Avonforce This landed in Norway on the 14th April. However they did not have enough men to cover the coastal areas between the defended locations at Namsos and Narvik, additionally they also needed raiding parties, so they formed Independent Companies. Smaller than an infantry battalion, but able to operate independently for up to a month. Each section was led by a Lieutenant. They were designed to operate from ships which would act as a floating base….Hence they had no transport.

The men were drawn from 1st and 2nd line TA Units, including the RWF (158) Inf Brigade in Northern Ireland. No 2 Company was formed in April 1940 and commanded by Maj Hughie Stockwell RWF. The men were a mixture of all the welsh infantry TA battalions. They were formed into three platoons. 158. 159 and 160. There was also independent companies formed from TA units on the UK mainland.

The men from 158 Inf Brigade were then moved to Ballykinlar in Co Down, into "Green Village" and then commenced arduous training in the Mourne Mountains. By the 13th May they were landing at Bodo Norway. Eventually Stockwell had to take command of 2 x Independent Companies during the fighting withdrawal, this was codenamed "Stockforce"

For a brief overview of their actions in Norway see the Wiki entry for their commander Hughie Stockwell: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Stockwell

8 RWF Franks original unit was a 2nd Line TA Infantry Battalion, its function was to provide replacements or reinforcements to its 1st Line TA infantry brigade "158(RWF)" which was deployed in Northern Ireland. Looking at the details you provided, it appear he was posted to 4th RWF within that brigade at Downpatrick in Sept 1940 after the Norway action.

As to whether Frank served in Norway? It's very possible, either with 2 Ind Company, or one of the companies formed on the UK mainland. To my knowledge this is the first query we've dealt with regarding the Norway action, so documentary sources are limited. There is no mention of Benbecula in the limited sources I have, however, its possible that other units did train there before deploying to Norway as part the independent companies..

By the way, what was his service number?

[ap1]

Here is the infantry order of battle for the Norwegian Campaign:

screenshot67.jpg

[Anniek]

thank you very much for replying. His number was T/4195427 The T was dropped on later papers - I assume it is because he was TA?

It is all so complicated to someone who knows nothing about it. He always said he was one of the first to do commando training.

I am also very puzzled as to why he kept ending up in hospital in North and West Wales when the records imply he was in Lichfield which I thought was in Staffordshire. 31st Battalion RWF.

I appreciate your help.

[ap1]

Its worth pointing out that although they arrived on the 13th May at Bodo, the Independent Companies under Stockwell's command actually fought the withdrawal battle against the Germans for about 4-5 days in length. From the 25th - 29 May 1940. Which would fit in with Franks short timeline. Unlike the main troops, who'd been there since April.

[Anniek]

yes that would make sense. It would also possibly tie in with him then being shuffled back to Wrexham at the end of June.

Is it usual though for anything like that not to have been recorded anywhere? I mean I realise they couldn't possibly log everything for everyone as that would have been impossible with the sheer number of soldiers but I am just surprised it looks like he never went anywhere or did anything for the whole duration of the war (except be charged once and go to hospital a few times)


Thank you for your help.

[Swiper]

I have the No 2 Service Company War Diary... it has details of nearly every man who served, I'll shifty through it but may take some time to get round to it.

[Anniek]

wow - thank you, no rush at all.

I am trying to think if there is anything else we know about him. I know he was a very boxer during the war and was asked to turn professional but he said no. I wish we had started looking a lot earlier to be honest as there may have been people around who remembered a tall redhead who was good at boxing but hindsight is a wonderful thing. I think it is important to find out what we can to pass on to my children. We are about to apply for my father in law's records too, he was in the first wave of troops into Belsen but he too died many years ago so we don't know very much about him either.

[Swiper]

Personally him returning to Wrexham makes little sense as most stayed with the Company, those who didn't returned to their relevant unit in 53 Div, but he may be an exception to that rule. Hopefully the WD clears things up!

[ivor43]

Hi Anniek.

I have been looking at CRS Dromore. It appears that the RAF had a station there during the war, but i can not find out much about it. but will keep looking.

guy's. is it possible that CRS could stand for Commando Reception Centre.



ivor