saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

[Baconwallah]

...the LSSAH (Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler) they were attached to the SS VT division in France and would likely have been in the St Venant area at the time...

At the time they were still in Army Group B Reserve.

John

[ivor43]

hi Dave.
when you look at the records there was only one prosecution from the 1940's and that was of Fritz Knochlien in 1948, for La Paradis Massacre. the only other recorded for 1940 was that at Wornhoudt. from which there where NO witnesses.
The problem appears to be that, whilst La Paradis shocked even the SS and records were kept by them. But a couple of soldiers shot in the Hospital at St Venant or Calonne and no doubt other places as well. were of little concern. so there would be no record, except a Death Cert. So unless these records can be found i fear we are stuck.


ivor

[Baconwallah]

I doubt the SS were in the habit of issuing death certificates for the Allied prisoners they shot.

John

[ivor43]

hi John.
i was thinking of PoW's shot while in hospital. i assume that a death cert would have been issued by a member of the staff.


ivor

[ivor43]

John.
you say that SS VT were in the reserves at the time, but as the Germans took Haverskirk on 26th i think it was. what would be the chances of the reserves being in the area by 29th.


ivor

[Baconwallah]

The Leibstandarte was much further to the north, between St Omer and Calais, on the 26th. From there they advanced east towards Wormhoudt.

As most civilians in the area had fled and did not return until the first week of June, I don't think there would be many hospital staff left to fill in forms. Those civilian attendants still functioning would have had more important things to worry about. And besides, filling in forms for patients just murdered by the SS would probably have been a very bad idea in any case.

Identification in most cases was not effected until the temporary graves were relocated, and then in a rather haphazard way. The extant grave lists demonstrate that only too clearly. Misspelled names, wrong numbers, no names or numbers at all.

John

[teecee1941]

The Leibstandarte was much further to the north, between St Omer and Calais, on the 26th. From there they advanced east towards Wormhoudt.

As most civilians in the area had fled and did not return until the first week of June, I don't think there would be many hospital staff left to fill in forms. Those civilian attendants still functioning would have had more important things to worry about. And besides, filling in forms for patients just murdered by the SS would probably have been a very bad idea in any case.

Identification in most cases was not effected until the temporary graves were relocated, and then in a rather haphazard way. The extant grave lists demonstrate that only too clearly. Misspelled names, wrong numbers, no names or numbers at all.

John

[dcdl12976]

Tony, I assume you meant to post a comment on your last post mate. ?

[ivor43]

good day all.
John, i have been looking at ''the Order of Battle'' regarding Army Group B. and accepting that there may be some errors, it makes interesting reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_o...ce#OKH_Reserve

on the above link, if you scroll down the reserves, This is a Lot of Men and Equipment. holding in a relatively small area.
If my reading is correct this area is networked with ditches and Canals, and that makes it,as you, an ex tankie will know well not suitable for tank warfare. This was a concern with ''High Command'' and part of the reason for the 'Stop' order. several of the field commanders were of the opinion that the tanks should be saved as the terrain was more suitable for Infantry as the approach to Dunkirk was considered a ''mopping up'' exercise.
Now, we have 2 SS Divisions the SS VT and the SS ''Der Fuhrer'' as well as the SS ''Adolph Hitler '' Reinforced Regiment. This is a lot of highly mobile SS men. so i would question the accuracy of knowing where any particular group of men were at any given time. especially as they were out of the ''action ''.
I would not be surprised if some one like Dix would be capable of going off on his own initiative seeking some murder and mayhem. As an SS Lt i doubt he would have been challenged very often.
With regard to the Death Cert's to an extent i would agree with you. But, with regard to the Local Hospital at St Venant. yes staff may have left, it would depend on their dedication to their patients. But in the case of Calonne that would not apply as this was a German Post.
now, finally.The Men shot in the hospital at St Venant were Known, i think that there is a very strong probability that Sid was one, the two who possibly were shot in Calonne, were known. These were not Field Grave Exhumations 18 months later and even Anthony's lack of ''Dog Tags '' may not have been a problem presumably he would have had his Pay Book. Also i do not think the issue of 'Death Certs '' would have been a problem to whatever med staff were there. as once the murders had been committed the perps moved on.


ivor

[Baconwallah]

This is a lot of highly mobile SS men. so i would question the accuracy of knowing where any particular group of men were at any given time. especially as they were out of the ''action ''.
I would not be surprised if some one like Dix would be capable of going off on his own initiative seeking some murder and mayhem.

To get from where LAH was assembling for the attack on the Dunkirk perimeter to Saint Venant, Dix would have had to move across the divisional areas of 20 Inf Div, 29th Motor Div, 6th Pz Div, 8th Pz Div and SS Verf Div. From St Venant to Merville, add 3rd Pz Div and SS Totenkopf Div. I would call that impossible, even with air support from several squadrons of flying pigs.

Yes, people were shot in hospitals. But they too would be buried more or less where they fell, next to the aid post. Aid post moved on, graves remained - often in the middle of nowhere. And keeping records of shot prisoners would have been hazardous in the extreme, especially for Wehrmacht personnel. Even had they cared, which they probably didn't anyway.

John