saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

[dcdl12976]

If im honest neither do i mate, but if does illustrate the sort of rules we are up against though if it is these rules holding the information back then why not just say so.

[ivor43]

Morning Dave.

If it is rules, then we have a problem. As we are both aware, when dealing with stuff from the public then Gov Depts are not very forthcoming. As Jim said they possibly are thinking that we will go away. Sorry No Chance.There is something peculiar here and it needs sorting. as i have said, as far as i am aware there is no forum member with enough clout to even cause a ripple, let alone a wave. We need someone with a lot of seniority or authority, who we can brief as to what we believe and if they are in agreement, to take this forward.

ivor

[ap1]

Guys just a thought. It might be worth posting a half page precis on this thread, about the original search query and where you are now. It's now 66 pages long and probably difficult and time consuming to bring yourself upto date if your a new visitor to the thread?

[Verrieres]

I`ll give it a go its not complete and who made what enquiry isn't on either but its what is roughly contained here on the Forum. Sorry if I`ve left anything or anyone out.

Anthony Corkhill (Durham Light Infantry) Killed during the Dunkirk Withdrawal - The Search for Answers

• 1940 Family are notified Pte Corkhill is missing.
  
  Family enquire with the Red Cross and RSM Goddard(Durham Light Infantry) who was taken prisoner, into their sons disappearance
  
  Correspondence received from the War Office regrets Pte Corkhill presumed Died of Wounds in France
  
  Confirmation Pte Corkhill died of wounds 29th May 1940 No Known grave
  
  Reply forwarded by the Red Cross from RSM Goddard who saw Pte Corkhill on the Canal bank wounded in both legs and a slight neck wound.Germans forbid RSM Goddard from taking his former batman with them instructing them to make him comfortable and to await their Field ambulance.
  
  Contact with RSM Goddards family who confirm that Pte Corkhills fate was something which saddenened him throughout his life.
  
  War Crimes files released by the MoD relate to several murders of British troops in the area during May 1940.Most unknown.File states possibly 60 men killed 6 cases highlighted 4 investigated men of Germania and Totenkopf Divisions interviewed all claim to have passed through the area.No outcome of trial/investigation recorded.Large mass grave at St venant containing 60-90 British dead.
  
  Enquiries to CWGC into verification of date of death 29th May 1940 for Pte Corkhill.Date according to CWGC was supplied by the War Office.CWGC claim they know nothing further and hold no information on any `unknowns`
  
  Mass grave is denied by CWGC despite it featuring on their Website.
  
  Tony applies for service records death ammended in 1941 to 29th May 1940.
  
  Anthony Corkhills will is obtained date of death 29th May 1940
  
  Missing men file examined as enquiries were made regarding those missing in 1940.No enquiry found relating to Pte Corkhill .Roll within the file states Anthony Corthill (Mispelled but number confirmed) DEAD reference Q80.
  
  Investigation into what `Q` Reference is possibly `Form Q` relating to report of War Crimes
  
  Enquiries into Forms Q only extracts available actual wearabouts of Forms Q `Not known- National Archives.
  
  Searcher party files explored and no instruction found to `search` for Pte Corkhill.
  
  Check on DLI Non Effective File for 1940 `Pte Corkhill died in France 29th May 1940.
  
  Investigation into unknown soldier buried next to Pte Walt the only other DLI casualty listed for May 29th 1940. Despite previous statement from CWGC that no information regarding unknowns is recorded they confirm unknown is a `Corporal` not a Private.
  
  Investigations conducted into German records German war graves commission and the Bundeswehr Museum No Trace for Pte Corkhill.
  
  CWGC confirm dates of death are last seen or body found which in Pte Corkhills case should have been the RSM Goddard last sighting on the 27th May however it isnt its two days later prompting the question who was last to see Anthony on the 29th May 1940
  
  Researcher given list of 29 officers and men repatriated in 1941 in the hope that one filled out a Form Q in addition to their Liberation Questionaire. NO questionaires can be found for any of them.
  
  Officer Michael Farrs questionaire located in locked MI19 file Freedom of Information request made. National archives deny its existance.
  
  Tony approachers MP who promises to contact MoD in relation to enquiry nearly six months later no reply despite another two approaches from the MP and Tony.
  
  MoD correspondence office state they are busy and not every enquiry wil receive a reply
  
  Press contacted and after initial interest suddenly decide they are too busy to investigate further.
  
  Enquiries made into known exumation of bodies in 1946 no official confirmation received.French Historian holds local records but cannot help the Corkhills after his help was instrumental in the Rodgers family obtaining a headstone for another DLI soldier
  
  Enquiries made to the Mayors Office in St venant regarding surviving records-No reply
  
  List of dead from mass grave obtained no mention of Anthony Corkhill but at least two other soldiers listed as missing No interest from official bodies.

Jim

[dcdl12976]

Thanks Jim saves going over a lot of old ground

[Verrieres]

UPDATE from Ministry of Defence.

I contacted the Minister of Defence via EMail questioning the lack of response to Tony`s questions .Since then I have received two acknowledgements and more importantly Tony has received a reply the relevant paragraph is featured below. Please read it ,then read it again I have and the more I read it the more I believe that they tend to agree that theres more somewhere...just not with them?

In many instances it would have been routine practice, to put an individual in the `missing category’ because the local military authorities were not in possession of sufficient information to decide what had happened to him and were unable to satisfy themselves that he was in fact `dead’. Subsequently, extensive enquiries were made through every possible channel during the war, and in the post war period these enquiries would have been intensified with the repatriation of thousands of former Prisoners Of War and former comrades. Some of this work has ended up in the casualty packs now held in the National Archives in WO 361. It is quite possible that more detailed information was received by the casualty branch/unit on particular casualties but that once they had been able to confirm a date/location of death this information was not retained for permanent preservation. At this juncture in time we simply have no way of saying if this was the case or not. All I can do is assure you that if such data had been retained and selected for permanent preservation then it would be within files held at the National Archives.
You may already be familiar with the workings of the War Office Casualty Branch during the War. There are reports in the National Archives including the following which may be of interest in providing some background of the types of enquiries undertaken to determine details of casualties:

WO 32/14356
http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...s?uri=C6291346

WO 32/14358
http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...s?uri=C6291348

Jim

[Baconwallah]

In short:

"The information may exist, but then it may not. In either case we know nothing about it so stop bothering us."

John

[dcdl12976]

Ref the holding of records i can say that those still in possestion of the MOD are now run by a civy company since 2008 so that could explain the lack of cooperation, also various records have over the years been held at a number of places for instance MOD civilian records used to be held in LLangennic and when they were sorted for the move when that establishment closed many were disposed of unless they were either of national importance or related to a person of great standing either at the time of service or later. SIS records are i believe held in St Albans and many SOE records were held in Baker street until a fire destroyed most of them, other MOD records are held in two places one in the midlands and one on the South coast (do a search on google cos i wont name the places for obvious reasons). There was an article in a paper http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...-files-archive which shows what problems we will encounter with the MOD although these records relate mostly to Northern Ireland who knows where and how many other records may be sitting waiting to be found, processed and released (a good 75 % will of course be destroyed for the reason stated earlier) family ties and problems like Tonys may well not be considered important enough to be saved for posterity.

Next is my post on the wardrobe guestbook ref dad has at last been replied to, the first post in December last year has gone completely however the second post in May has been replied to albeit i believe censored any mention of the friendly fire incident appears to have been edited out.

Dave Cooke - 6th May 2013

My father (1st Btn) was at St Venant circa 24/29 May 1940. On the 24th he and several others were guarding the footbridge over the canal to the North West of St Venant and close to Haverskerque. His is Name Ronald Edward Cooke i think he may have been a L/Cpl at the time he survived the battles in this area and arrived safely back in England (though wounded) and spent time in hospital at Warwick . He is still alive at 95 this year and still with it mentally though he doesnt get around much. Regards Dave Cooke
The first time i posted this i mentioned the friendly fire incident and the name of his mate and father (i reckon that is why it has been deleted).


Lastly Jim your info about "locked files" in MI 19 i feel that freedom of informatrion will do us no good here since as part of the Secret Intelligence Service there files are closed for 100 years and considered as not in the public interest to know as well as being likely to put the security of the realm at risk (this is a blanket assumption no matter what the file relates to.
Now lets look at MI 19 itself.

From Wikipedia.

MI19 was a section of the British Directorate of Military Intelligence, part of the War Office. In World War II it was responsible for obtaining information from enemy prisoners of war.
It was originally created in December 1940 as MI9a, a sub-section of MI9. A year later, in December 1941, it became an independent organisation, though still closely associated with its parent.^[1]
MI19 had Combined Services Detailed Interrogation Centres (CSDIC) at Beaconsfield, Wilton Park and Latimer as well as a number overseas.^[2]
MI19 operated an interrogation centre in Kensington Palace Gardens, London, commanded by Lt. Col. Alexander Scotland OBE, known as the "London Cage". It was a subject of persistent reports of torture by the prisoners confined there, which included war crimes suspects from the SS and Gestapo held in the facility after World War II.^[3]

The BBC reported that MI-19 staff were sent to the Channel Islands in 1945 to look for evidence of collaboration during the German occupation. The intent may have been to silence speculation. The Channel Islands were demilitarised by Britain when France fell, and were occupied by substantial German forces. The islands had no strategic value, unlike Malta, and any tactical value would have been outweighed by the effort to maintain forces there. The Channel Islands did contribute to the war effort, by tying up large numbers of German troops who were not available for more aggressive military tasks. There was also a very substantial investment in fortifications, all of which were in the end pointless.^[4]
The point here is that since the department was responsible for the interrogation of prisoners of war especially ones suspected of war crimes what the hell is this questionaire doing with then, i can only guess that in some way Michael Farr had witnessed some executions and just maybe one was Anthony (strange is it not that the only form to come to light is this one). Here it may be useful to give some information about Michaels incarceration as a prisoner "

Michael Farr's medals are located in Medal Case 15 , Display Group 2
Born in 1918 in Burma, he was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in the DLI in January 1939. He fought with the 2nd Battalion DLI on the River Dyle and then back on the long retreat towards Dunkirk. He was taken prisoner along with most of his battalion on 27 May 1940 at St Venant in northern France. After his first escape attempt, which also involved a raid on the Camp Commandant's wine cellar, he was sent to a special camp in Poland, where he was kept in a dungeon. He was then moved to Biberach POW Camp and again tried to escape. After several other unsuccessful attempts from Warburg and Eichstatt POW Camps, including one in June 1943 when he tunneled out and made it across the River Danube before he was recaptured, he was finally sent to Colditz Castle. At Colditz, he joined other "hardliners" in the top security prison and worked on the construction of the famous glider in the castle's roof that was only abandoned when the war ended. He also made wine and ran the castle's distillery. Finally liberated in April 1945, Lieutenant Michael Farr was awarded the MBE in January 1946 for his efforts to escape whilst a POW. After the war, he worked for the family firm in Plymouth making "Hawker's Pedlars Sloe Gin". Michael Farr died in January 1993. So a checkered prisoner then, is it possible he was working for military intelligence because if so this whole thing would start to make sense as to why no records or assistance is forthcoming.

Dont know if this makes any sense but i hope it will throw some light on the weird events we are coming up against.

Cheers
Dave

[ivor43]

Hi all.
well at first it seemed that finally we have been given some constructive info. nah. don't we already know the date when the DoD was amended. so is this just a '' lets give them a bit. they might go away ''. Not a Hope in Hell. there is something wrong here which needs sorting.

ivor

[Verrieres]

Update.

The Freedom of information request to have Lt Farrs Liberation form opened from the MI 19 file has been declined with the NA saying if it existed then a duplicate would be in the open file ..which it isnt but is in the index any further enquiries are reccomended to be sent to....THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE!
Round and round we go again!

Best Wishes

Jim