saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

[ivor43]

Good Morning.
Thanks for the info guys
Dave. whilst i do not doubt you, i find you quote below remarkable.

" Simlpy put no because the only real difference would be the regimental cap badge and given the pride most soldiers have in there badged regiment changing cap badges without being officially sanctioned ordered and officialy transfered would be highly unlikely (and against Army Regs anyway). It is possible i suppose but highly unlikely. ''

Does this mean therefore, that any man who lost his cap, and in the circumstances we are dealing with would seem to me to be very, very possible. If severely wounded it would not be possible to ID him to his unit. I thought that a unit name tag was sewn on the shoulder of the Battledress tunics. which is why i asked the question, Cap Badges never occurred to me.

Jim. The knowledge that the army knew as early as June 40 possibly isn't that surprising. It was known that the Hospital was in the area. It is known that British troops were still fighting in the area some time later, so the info that it had moved on 29th could easily have got back. Even the '' On or Since 29/5/40 '' makes sense. It is likely that the British would not have known exactly what happened to the wounded there. and certainly i doubt they would have known, at that time, of the possibility of murders there.
But these ' missing ' dates are puzzling me. As i said before Where were they on 10th and was there anything of significance known to have occurred on or just before that date. anything which may account for Anthony's apparent 'disappearance' until seen by Goddard on 27th. this seems odd.Was there anyone else shown missing between these dates ?


ivor

[dcdl12976]

Ivor you may be right but Dad said he never wore shoulder titles (of course at 95 he may misremember) however he also said he wore the 2nd division shoulder flash (crossed keys). As you say if a soldier lost his cap he may well have found a replacement from somwhere and if he had no tags (as Anthony ) thus been put down as a wrong unit. I suspect you are correct and most would have shoulder titles and thus be identified from them in which case we run into a whole new can of worms.

Cheers

Dave

[ivor43]

Hi All.

Of Course SOMETHING Happened on 10 May 1940. The German's invaded, (I have deleted the next couple of lines as they were not suitable for persons of a nervous disposition or for family viewing.) Of Course The Bl**** Germans Invaded. something of a SLIGHT significance.
But this could explain something else.
Prior to the 10th was it not the practice for troops due R&R to be returned to UK for leave. so on 10th ALL BEF men on leave would have been given an IMMEDIATE recall. So could Anthony have been on leave in UK and in the rush to get back is this when he left his 'Dog Tags ' behind, and when they got back to France it took quite some time for them to find their units.
I can well imagine quite a lot of men were Missing at that time, somewhere in France trying to find their units.


Ivor.

[dcdl12976]

A damded good thought Ivor however i would think it unlikely that many would be granted leave when an attack was thought possible at any time (i am probobly wrong on that) but it is a distinct possibility.

Ref the shoulder titles, a little research reveals that until just after Dunkirk shoulder titles were metal pin on type and thus easily removed and looking at lots of photos from the time in France there are few that show them in use. Bearing in mind the poor photos and the fact that brownish metal titles would not show up very well on kharki i believe my Dad may be correct. Bearing in mind the standard pow orders of name rank and number only to be given to the enemy why have shoulder tities that gave away the regiment (even though the cap badge did). One of the weird and silly things of the time i suppose.

A little research may reveal an order to remove them on a war footing when serving in France at this time.

Cheers Ivor

Dave

[Verrieres]

Hi,
Just a couple of points battledress at this time May 1940 had no insignia, no shoulder titles metal of cloth versions no crossed keys nothing except rank badges some formations adopted unofficial versions but not the 2nd DLI.Captain Annands batledress is at the DLI museum its blank apart from his pips.
It was after the BEF action that the various shoulder titles and unit insignia started to be worn again.Pre war the brass shoulder title was worn on service dress but not in France 1940.
Ivor there were many DLI `missing` from 10th May 1940 onwards but Anthony was not one of them ,he simply had not drew any pay (like the majority of 2 DLI) Anthony Corkhill only became a concern after RSM Goddard saw him on the 27th May 1940. The fact that we are unable to establish which Company he was with is common with no surviving Company lists and in the most of the cases I have encountered all references to a mans Company are based on the Company Roll on deployment in France. Hope this clears up a few things. The only item other than a dog tag which a soldier always carried was his AB64.

Best

Jim

Just a small edit Anthony was not on leave he returned in April 1940. Those on leave at the time of the German advance(DLI,RWF,R.Berks,RA etc) were formed into a composite battalion,not to far away but not near the fighting at St Venant.Dave the thing about divisional signs and shoulder titles were ordered to be removed but any man could be identified by his paybook which contained a soldiers army number which pre war and in the first year or two were issued in regimental blocks which the Germans would have been aware of anyway.

[dcdl12976]

Thanks for that Jim it confirms what i thought about the titles, thonugh dad says he wore the 2 div patch however i have his from that time and it has popper things on it which suggests it was easily removable from before deployment to France.

I hadnt though about the AB 64 that suggests that Anthony was not in possestion of his when he was captured/died otherwise there would be some record somewhere he was in possestion of the AB64 when he was buried surely that info would have been enough to put on his grave.

Dave

[ivor43]

Hi
Ok, so things get more complicated. so not only does Anthony apparently leave his 'Dog Tags ' in the UK it might seem to appear he left his pay book there as well.
Right, Jim, are you saying that just because Anthony did not draw his pay he would have been recorded as ' missing '. What was the Pay procedure prior to the 10th a pay parade ?. i would have thought that from the 10th a formal parade would have been almost impossible.

ivor

[Verrieres]

Hi
Ok, so things get more complicated. so not only does Anthony apparently leave his 'Dog Tags ' in the UK it might seem to appear he left his pay book there as well.
Right, Jim, are you saying that just because Anthony did not draw his pay he would have been recorded as ' missing '. What was the Pay procedure prior to the 10th a pay parade ?. i would have thought that from the 10th a formal parade would have been almost impossible.

ivor

Hello Ivor,
No I`m saying he was never posted as missing until the 14th June 1940 and then only briefly.He was confirmed as `DEAD` Q80 on the Roll he was never treated as a missing soldier no enquiries were ever (as far as can be ascertained) carried out into his wearabouts.No searcher parties no correspondence to those he served with, to the War Office he was `DEAD`.This is the inconsistancy in the whole search and which has led us to believe something further was filed/reported in regards to his death. Anthony has no known grave his AB64 could have been taken from him along with piles of other AB64s (or it could be still with him).The Mayor stated at the time soldiers personal effects which were recovered from the dead were despatched to the relevent authorities..whoever they were.
Best

Jim

[Verrieres]

Afternoon,

I have heard from Tony, last night he received an email from the MoD as expected not very encouraging..a little explaination in what they normally do in these cases ...I say normally because apparently due to a lack of staff they will not even be looking into this !...Sorry thats it for now too angry to comment further at this time.Just to keep you all up to speed really.
Best

Jim

[dcdl12976]

So not helpfull at all Jim but thanks for letting us know mate.