saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

[Baconwallah]

Ivor, what we have to deal with are lists (the two we know of, anyway) with names and numbers (recorded by the French so not necessarily correct), sometimes confusingly entered twice, or just the word 'inconnu' (unknown, and in that case it's easy). Some names have been struck through and replaced by other names/numbers (again, not necessarily correct), or not, as the case may be, and it is always a pleasant surprise to be able to identify a man from the information provided.

For example, Capitaine Rarker Terver turned out to be Capt Parker-Jervis, 2eme Lieut Edwart Alan was identified as 2/Lt Frank Alan Ewart-James, and Arthur Buck is in the same list twice, but with slightly different numbers (4435503 and the correct 4453403).

Grave locations are generally given as Champ Walle Paul ("in Paul Walle's field") or Cour Heudre Etienne ("in Etienne Heudre's courtyard"), the named farming gentlemen long dead and forgotten. Map references are for sissies.

What makes sense and what we have to work with are often two completely different things. Regrettably.

John

[ivor43]

John,
my friend, i thought you were going to describe something difficult, we can do difficult standing on our heads. but in this case impossible comes to mind, which may take a bit longer.
Oh, i hope you are not French, as i am becoming very,very Teed Off with certain of our Cross Channel neighbours. So much so that i think we should start a campaign to re instate Madam La Guillotine.
However in my 69 years i have seldom had anything easy and i guess that aint goin to change any time soon.
Anyway,joking apart, thanks for the info, i can appreciate the problem.


ivor

[Verrieres]

Hello Ivor,
What John states is very true we have two sets of lists but this cannot be all there was as we have found none in the vicinity of the St Venant bridge,unless as you suggested they were buried in the graveyard?(M.Faivre does say that many dead were collected during the battle itself) The number of unknowns at St Venant we know is 40 but we know,and John will correct me if I`m wrong, that the unknowns or inconnus on the Bas Hamel lists number 26 (ish) whilst the large grave according to the CWGC (which they of course do not know about despite it being on their web page!) held 90 graves in total named and unknown,which was a surprise as our lists including unknowns show 64??? Obviously some were identified later.
Add to these the others at St Pol ,Merville and Haverskerque and we have quite a puzzle. M.Faivre recalled there were;-
37 field/temp graves in St Venant
15 in St Floris
and 34 at Robecq.
Final Resting place buriels;-
176 rest at St Venant
9 at Robecq,
22 at Calonne sur Lys,
7 at St Floris
and 40 at Haverskerque
Total 254 not included in this were the unknowns who died in hospitals and those who were fished out of the canal his estimate for a final total was around 300 (St Venant-Robecq Pg 74)
You are right about those co-ordinates though otherwise there would be no structure to the autopsy records...or is that why we struggle to find answers?

Best
Jim

[Verrieres]

Just had a quick look at CALONNE-SUR-LA-LYS COMMUNAL CEMETERY according to the CWGC there are 11 buriels here in fact there are 25 including two from WW1.
They are laid out as follows ;-S. Barnes (Warrant Officer (Pilot) Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 198 Sqdn. Age: 22 Date of Death: 02/10/1944 Service No: 1430715)
– T. Buckley (Fusilier Royal Welch Fusiliers 1st Bn. Age: 27 Date of Death: between 25/05/1940 and 27/05/1940 Service No: 813905)
– Unknown – Unknown – W. Roberts (Private King's Own Royal Regiment (Lancaster) 6th Bn. Age: 36 Date of Death: 29/05/1940 Service No: 3711938)– E. Humphreys (Fusilier Royal Welch Fusiliers 1st Bn. Age: 21 Date of Death: 28/05/1940 Service No: 4196969)
– J. M. Durston (Lance Corporal Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders 6th Bn. Age: 21 Date of Death: 27/05/1940 Service No: 4274676)

Unknown – Unknown (Machester Rgt) - Unknown (Machester Rgt) - Unknown – Unknown –
E. Pomphrett ( Royal Northumberland Fusiliers 8th Bn. Age: 20 Date of Death: 24/05/1940 Service No: 6915538)- Unknown – Unknown - Unknown (Field Artillery) – J. S. Gay (Royal Scots 1st Bn. Age: 26 Date of Death: 24/05/1940 Service No: 3053470)– C. Sever (Private Manchester Regiment 2nd Bn. Age: 20 Date of Death: between 26/05/1940 and 27/05/1940 Service No: 2571860)
–Unknown – Unknown

T. Rogers (Indian Lieutenant Supply and Transport Corps Date of Death: 13/02/1915) - D. Griffiths ( Serjeant Royal Welch Fusiliers 1st Bn. Age: 27 Date of Death: 29/05/1940 Service No: 4188082)- Unknown - Unknown


R. C. Doidge (Captain Lancashire Fusiliers 17th Bn. Age: 26 Date of Death: 02/03/1916)
According to M.Faivre 5 men died at the hospital here and were buried as unknowns after their tags were removed.


Best

Jim

[Baconwallah]

Just had a quick look at CALONNE-SUR-LA-LYS COMMUNAL CEMETERY according to the CWGC there are 11 buriels here in fact there are 25 including two from WW1.

You're both right, Jim. There are 11 identified casualties (listed on the CWGC website) but 25 including the unknowns.

John

[Verrieres]

You're both right, Jim. There are 11 identified casualties (listed on the CWGC website) but 25 including the unknowns.

John

Hello John
I was`nt disputing them this time,just stating the actual total for anyone who is interested.:-). The CWGC are very forth coming about this one which backs up M.Faivres reports to a certain extent.

Historical Information

During the withdrawal of the British Expeditionary Force to Dunkirk in May 1940, there was heavy fighting in the area around Calonne-sur-la-Lys, and most of the inhabitants left the area. The school was used by the Germans as an aid post, and British soldiers who died at Calonne, either in battle or of wounds while prisoners, were buried by the Germans in the field behind the school. In 1942 the local people moved these graves into the communal cemetery, but in the meantime the rough grave markers had in many instances become illegible. The identity discs and personal possessions had mostly been removed before burial, so that in 1942 few of the dead could be identified.

The communal cemetery now contains 23 Commonwealth burials of the Second World War, 14 of which are unidentified. There are also two burials from the First World War. CWGC Debt of Honour

Best

Jim

[ivor43]

Morning.
Jim welcome to Calonne.
I have been here for a while. So if i may explain what i think is going on here.
First, the German Field Post could not have been in operation prior to the 26 th at the earliest, therefore some of these deaths must have taken place in the Local Hospital which may, possibly, have resulted in burial in the local cemetery.
Second. there are No deaths after the 29th.
third. Is there some significance to 29th. There are 2 deaths of Known men on his date, and Anthony if he had been taken there.
fourth. It is reported that 5 men had their ID Tags removed in Hospital. By Medical Staff ? would seem unlikely.

So what is going on.
The following possibility ?
By 29th the German Front line has advanced well beyond the Lys and the Field Post is required to move. but there is a problem, there are a number of British wounded which would need transportation.
We know that there was a particularly nasty piece of murdering S.S. Trash operating in the area. Did he solve the problem. and remove the ID at the same time.
As i said previously, i think we need to look at the situation here in a whole lot more detail, if possible, as i still think this is where we will find the answer.

Oh and why am i not surprised that CWGC are more forthcoming about Calonne than St Venant. Sigh, may be i am just a cynical old sod.



ivor

[ivor43]

hi.
Looking at the graves in Robecq.
1 W Yorks DoD 21/5/40.
8 RWF DoD between 23rd and 25th/5/40
It would appear that these are original 1940 burials, not the result of 41/42 clearances.


ivor

[ivor43]

hi again.
Jim, in your post ( 493 ) you quote M. Faivre referring to temp/field graves and FINAL RESTING PLACE BURIALS.
Now if, as i believe, the 9 at Robecq and the 7 at St Floris are original 1940 Burials, then does M. Faivre mean there are 176 1940 burials in St Venant and 22 in Calonne. while that may make some sense for St Venant it does not really fit Calonne. Very Odd....



Ivor

[Baconwallah]

My database shows 22 burials of May 1940 casualties in Calonne-sur-la-Lys, 8 of whom could be identified.

In St Venant I have 175 records (probably missed one).

John