saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

[Verrieres]

Hi Dave,
Yes I always assumed this however the list of dead from the Mayor only exists in the War Crime File. Thats not to say it wasnt sent on earlier a distinct possibility I agree. The men classed as missing also have comments regarding sightings/fate and dates interesting enough the witness is named too but they are all different no one man witnessed more than a single case.Frustrating!. Something is starting to become apparent regarding these dates of death I do`nt have the details but once I do I`ll post anything relevant.
Best Wishes

Jim
PS I still owe you an e-Mail mate!!

Jim, could not the 1942 year be when the bodies were reburied on orders of the Germans ? the word "accepted" would appear to suggest this.

Ivor we have conversed at lenght about this brick wall and for the same reasons discussed it may be that the Frenchman is in on it.
Ref the date of the 23rd for death of Lt John Brooksbank Garnett there is burials in St Floris dated the 23rd including your Lieutenant (you probobly already know this) http://www.webmatters.net/txtpat/index.php?id=288. Seems strange since i was not aware there were any British in that area on that date. Strange that there are 7 graves all with date of death the 23rd or are these reburials and the date was assumed wrongly.
Is it possible that the bodies were exhumed to try to get evidence for a war crimes investigation/trial that or to try to identify some of the unknowns to me would be the only logical conclusions.
Cheers now folks

Dave

[ivor43]

hi all.
Dave i think you may have a big clue there.
The disagreement over the burial locations did not start until after the British exhumations of 1946.
So what happened in 1942.where these files examined by the Red Cross and accepted by them. and the acceptance passed to the British Authorities. who also accepted them.
If subsequently further field graves were found and not dealt with in the same manner, or maybe not examined by the Red Cross then it is very likely that any files submitted would not be accepted.
What is the possibility of the British Exhumations being in relation to these bodies ?
Is this what the Frenchman has ?




ivor

[dcdl12976]

Is it possible then we are just reading to much into this and things were just so confused and records being bitted at by several differnt agencies that the confusion is simplt that.
I do think however that the Frenchman knows more than he is saying and possibly has the info required but for some reason doesnt want to share it with anybody.

regards

Dave

[ivor43]

morning all.

It appears that in the Frenchman's Book he says that a number of British wounded were taken to the Hospital in the School at Calonne. O.K we know this, as we know that a number of British dead were buried in the field at the rear of the school. It has been my belief for some time that this is where Anthony would have been taken when picked up by the German Field Ambulance. If, for reasons which we do not know, he died here then he would have been buried with the others.
O.K. so far.
Now as i understand it the Field Grave clearances were carried out by the Local Council so we have been looking for files in Haverskirque. But does Calonne come under Haverskirque. Looking on Google maps it does not appear to do so. Have we been looking for Anthony's details in the wrong place. Where the files we want held at Calonne, and this is why any request for info re St Venant is not getting any where. a possibility.


ivor

[Baconwallah]

St-Pol, Haverskerque, St-Venant and Calonne-sur-la-Lys are all separate administrative entities, with their own town mayors, town halls and councils. If we are looking for a man who died in Calonne, we should go to Calonne. The St-Venant Council (and M Faivre) will know nothng about him.

I hope this will clear up the current confusion.

John

[dcdl12976]

Ivor, you may well have something here and i agree Calonne does not in my opinion come under St Venant it appears to be a different equivalent to our parishes ( dont know what the french call them im afraid).

[ivor43]

hi.

Thank you John.Appreciated. A pity i did not think of it before. might make a difference. We know that there are several Unknowns in Calonne. A fresh line of enquiry. could be good.


ivor

[Baconwallah]

The French word commune would be the English word 'parish' (without the religious connotation) or 'municipality'. Different commune, different mairie (town hall), maire (mayor) and conseil communal (council).

I might add that the VDK has already been checking their records for field hospitals in the Calonne ara, so far without result unfortunately. Field hospital found, but no trace of Anthony.

John

[ivor43]

Hi again.
Jim in you post 444 you quote a date in June 42 as an acceptance date.it is a known fact that a number of British dead were buried behind the School/ Hospital at Calonne could this be the date that these graves were cleared. it would seem logical as we now know that Calonne has no connection with St Venant.
with regard to the cause of death being given as 'Died of wounds' that is a very generalised term, wounds as a result of the battle or wounds as a result of murder by S.S. as we are also aware happened. If a Dr witnessed such an act i can not see him being allowed to make a full report into cause of death. a one word entry Dead.



ivor

[ivor43]

John.
I think we owe your friends in the V D K a great deal of thanks for their efforts on our behalf.
But for them to trace a man with no ''dog tags'' would be very difficult. As soon as Anthony died he really did become an unknown in the truest seance of the word.

While i know quite a lot about bodies, from the past, the Bog Bodies, Egyptian Mummies and Otzi the Ice man, who i have seen in the Museum at Bolzano, Italy.


If any of you are of a sensitive nature stop here.




I only have a sketchy knowledge of what we are dealing with here. I assume that the burials from the Hospital would be just the same as field burials no coffin. So i wonder, if, after 2 years would it be possible to establish flesh wounds etc. i know that the type of ground has a direct bearing on decomposition etc . I believe John that as a medical man you would have a much better knowledge than me.


ivor