saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

[teecee1941]

I would very much like to wish a happy and prosperous New Year to all of the 126 members who have read this thread. Special thanks to Jim, John, Ivor and Dave and all others who took the time to be involved during 2012. Your efforts are very much appreciated.

Regards,

Tony

[Verrieres]

Hello,
All the best everyone a little late I know but better late than never.

To continue.......

I`m still working on those lists its taking longer than I anticipated..actually I`m prone to distraction! One distraction I have found is while examaning The Townsend Diaries unfortunately it is not going to help our search for Anthony one bit I`m afraid.The Diary reveals that following the actions on the Dyle 2 DLI pulled back to a new line six miles in the rear ,shortly afterwards they were pulled back again in need of organisation the men were distrubuted into `new` Companies headed by what officers they had with CSMs and senior NCOs filling in for officers...would this mean RSM Goddard would now leave HQ Company and head one of these ad hoc Companies?
If he did we do`nt know but what Townsend does record is that following the `fallback` there was no time for transport to be brought forward and ALL military equipment was abandoned save for Brens and Anti tank rifles which they carried away.He further states with No Signal Equipment,Pioneer Equipment etc there was no need to keep HQ Company intact and its personnel were used as riflemen distributed between the companies. Who was Anthony with on the 27th May 1940 ? Remember Remnants of B Company together with D Company were at the `other` Bridge.A and C Companies were along the railway line in St Venant and their HQ was in the cemetery.
The audio recordings at the IWM are now back online and Fred Cottier recalls some of the Pioneers who were guarding the HQ managed to escape by swimming the canal further downstream. The audios whilst useful for background make no mention of the RSM or his batman indeed Cottier had been dispatched to the other bank to carry a message to brigade and when he returned it was all over.Sgt Wray was wounded and was brought to HQ and escaped from it but he was with A and C companies during the fighting and again witnessed the end of the action (and one named persons death in suspicious circumstances)
More distractions today when I found in Newcastle the grave of a Pte Clews in 1940 2 DLI again and died of his wounds on returning to England on doing some background checks I find in April 1946 The London Gazette published that Pte Clews had been awarded a postumous Mention in Despatches for 1940.Six years after the event ? Obviously on the recommendation of a returning PoW ? Digging a little deeper into that issue we find more awards for the period..Col Simpson CO of 2 DLI a DSO...Major Stallard 2 IC 2 DLI a DSO,Sgt Major Harry Quatrough a Military Cross, and the following additional Mention in Despatches ;-
Maj. (temp.) J. R. COUSENS (37178).
Capt. (Q.M.) O. H. PEARSON, M.B.E. (56511).
2/Lt. H. M. W. PEEL (74853) (died/posthumous).
4443691 W.O. Ill S. J. McGUIRE ( died).
4442038 W.O. Ill F. WALKER.
4449177 Sgt. W. J. CLEWS ( died).
4446379 Cpl. W. CURTIS ( died).
4449346 Pte. C. E. SUTTON.
The citations are held at the National Archives and whilst a lot of MiDs are `missing` the likes of DSO`s and Military Crosses survive..except for this entire list which are `missing`!!!
I have previously corresponded with members of Sgt Major Qualtroughs extended family and not only was my enquiry into the circumstances of his award unfruitful but the fact that he had a Military Cross was a total surprise! Are we cursed? :-)

Dave I owe you an email mate Sorry.

Best

Jim

[dcdl12976]

No probs Jim. This is all interesting and a few more pieces to fit into the puzzle. Just a shame the Royal Berks war diaries for the period seem to be "missing". Ah well you have done well to dig these snippets up mate and im sure there is much more to find yet, at the very least we are giving Anthony a real insight into what happened in the area over those 4 days.
Anthony dont give up mate eventually something may yet appear that gives at least a clue to your enquiry.
Cheers now folks

Dave

[Verrieres]

Hello,

I have corresponded with Tony over the last week or so and once again we have discussed how their was no missing man enquiry for Anthony,and how he could be definately listed as dead on the 29th May 1940. We went over a little old ground and on what the CWGC rely on for a date of death `In the case of a missing soldier such as Anthony Corkhill with his body not found/identified they go by the last date he was seen...which was? The 27th May 1940 by RSM Goddard on the canal bank as he was marched away? So the question is who bore witness to Anthonys death two days later on the 29th May?
I have thrown a few ideas into the ring over the course of these investigations and one in particular regarding the returning wounded 2DLI men in April/May 1942 was one of them and if any completed a PoW questionaire detailing (Briefly) their capture tratment and if they witnessed any war crimes (Q Forms) now that I have jogged a few memories lets briefly move to more recent lines of enquiry.
When speaking with Tony he remarked on Anthony being the only 2 DLI listed in the Book of Rememberance in Durham Cathederal yet when I checked there are three 2 DLI men listed as died on the 29th May 1940 one died of wounds at home (earlier action ?) The other two Anthony and a Pte Syd Walt who is buried at St Venant. Now Syd Walt I had looked into long before I heard from Tony and his quest for his uncle.
Syd Walt like Anthony was not featured in the missing men investigations so it was presumed by me that he had been killed in action and buried in one of the temp graves until his reburiel at St Venant I did not even notice that the date of death was two days after the action had ended.
When John kindly sent over the list of men buried in the large mass grave I started to sift through the casualty lists from the other temp graves in the area no Pte Syd Walt ??? He was listed with Anthony as `Dead` but nothing else ...until I found today tucked at the back of the file barely legible ` Died of Wounds accepted 26/06/1942??? The 26th June 1942 there are others too all confirmed in the first week of June 1942.
Where did the confirmation come from ? The Missing men investigation? Possibly but the British had approached the Red Cross to make the enquiries with the French and German authorities their letters dated 5/08/1942 and 27/11/1942. The replies from ZOLLINGER IRC GENEVA ,CSM PINKNEY PoW. and forwarded by SCHWEIZ GESANDSCHAFF ABT SCHUTZMACHT BERLIN were not received until 21st and 24th June 1943. A year after the acceptance/confirmation dates could Anthonys Q80 reference have been added at the same time ? It too is on the same list in Pencil just like these acceptance dates.
Hopefully I still have your attention and you have`nt nodded off just yet, with confirmation/acceptance in June 1942 would this not tie in with those returning PoWs I mentioned earlier April/May 1942. Pte Walt is listed as Died of Wounds somebody,like Anthony Corkhills case,witnessed this else how would they know he wasnt Killed in Action,Died of Illness etc .

Anythoughts I know its all `what ifs` but there isnt many of those returning PoWs from 2 DLI worthy of further investigation or have I missed something glaringly obvious?
Best Wishes

Jim

[Baconwallah]

Thanks for the update, Jim.

Perhaps Anthony's service record, when it arrives at last, will shed some light on this. And that form Q 80 must one day turn up, given a competent researcher.

Earlier this week I heard from the VDK (the German equivalent of the CWGC) that they have not yet found any relevant information but will continue the search. I sent them a new summary of our current thinking.

John

[Verrieres]

Morning John,

You are more than welcome .At least they (VDK) are looking which is a good thing,I have still to hear about the proposed article in the magazine and will need to get an enquiry off to the MoD ..and finish those lists off! Best get back to it.
Thanks John

Best Wishes

Jim

Thanks for the update, Jim.

Perhaps Anthony's service record, when it arrives at last, will shed some light on this. And that form Q 80 must one day turn up, given a competent researcher.

Earlier this week I heard from the VDK (the German equivalent of the CWGC) that they have not yet found any relevant information but will continue the search. I sent them a new summary of our current thinking.

John

[ivor43]

Hi all.
I hope everyone has fully recovered from the festive season.
I may have been quiet for a while, but not idle. i have been very quietly digging around the edges of this situation, and found some interesting stuff. However most of it is not directly concerned with this quest.
One thing which i was trying to get my head round was the apparent lack of info held by CWGC/MoD, although it is known that they have, twice, been given copies of the files held in France.
Jim tells me that these files were generated in 1941/42 by the local authorities when the Field Graves were cleared, the bodies autopsied, Under German Supervision, and re buried in St Venant. obviously no British involvement.
Now in 1946, for reasons which i do not quite understand, the British exhume some of the bodies and, this is where the problem arises,allegedly, put them back in the wrong locations.
So it would appear that the Frenchman holds the keys to the original info and the British,doing a good impression of an Ostrich, will have nothing to do with it Oh Dear. Maybe someone needs a size 9 to the 3rd lace hole in an appropriate orifice.
The next bit concerns the St Floris incident in which Lt John Brooksbank Garnett was killed. the date on his grave marker of the 23 rd, despite CWGC saying different, would appear to be correct.
I have see a death notice from the Times dated 23 May 1943, anniversary?. which states 23 rd May 1940. Also on a family Memorial in their local church at their home in Co Tyrone it also states 23rd.
There is still a lot more about this period that is not clear,and despite some fairly extensive surface scratchings and peering into a few dark corners,it isn't becoming any clearer.Odd.

Oh well, have to keep looking.


ivor

[dcdl12976]

Jim, could not the 1942 year be when the bodies were reburied on orders of the Germans ? the word "accepted" would appear to suggest this.

Ivor we have conversed at lenght about this brick wall and for the same reasons discussed it may be that the Frenchman is in on it.
Ref the date of the 23rd for death of Lt John Brooksbank Garnett there is burials in St Floris dated the 23rd including your Lieutenant (you probobly already know this) http://www.webmatters.net/txtpat/index.php?id=288. Seems strange since i was not aware there were any British in that area on that date. Strange that there are 7 graves all with date of death the 23rd or are these reburials and the date was assumed wrongly.
Is it possible that the bodies were exhumed to try to get evidence for a war crimes investigation/trial that or to try to identify some of the unknowns to me would be the only logical conclusions.
Cheers now folks

Dave

[ivor43]

Hi Dave.

Whilst in most circumstances i would not necessarily trust the CWGC dating, but in the circumstances surrounding these particular 7 deaths i am , from the evidence i have seen, totally convinced that it is correct. Also from what i said in my previous post, it would appear the Family also accepted it.
I do not think there would have been too much investigation into it.

ivor

[dcdl12976]

Fair enough mate, was just an idea.