saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

[Verrieres]

Yet another disappointment a definate NO!

Thank you for your reply.<O:P></O:P>
The records that the Commission holds regarding St. Venant Communal Cemetery were based on the information provided to us by the service authorities, and we do not hold any documentation regarding the mass grave that you had highlighted. As this is the case, this means that we are unable to confirm the list that you have provided regarding those casualties that were originally buried in this site. <O:P></O:P>
As Gunner Barlow is commemorated on the Dunkirk Memorial, it must be assumed that the military authorities were unable to make an identification of his remains. Without more stantial evidence regarding the place of burial for Gunner Barlow, we cannot accede to your request to erect a special memorial marker in St. Venant Communal Cemetery.<O:P></O:P>
We are of course aware that this decision will come as a disappointment, but I hope you are able to appreciate how the Commission is placed in such matters.<O:P></O:P>

Yours sincerely<O:P></O:P>

<O:P></O:P>

Paul Davis<O:P></O:P>

Enquiries Administrator<O:P></O:P>

I seem to have addressed my initial question to the wrong people but I need one last answer from the CWGC.As you can see by the reply above they did not give the Criteria we need to have Gnr Barlow recognised as buried there.

Dear Mr Davies,
Thank you for your reply I do appreciate that you act on the information available to you and perhaps I was wrong to assume that as I had highlighted the source of the list enquiries might be made by yourselves at the Mayors office in St Venant.Nevertheless disappointing as this outcome has been I now know through your correspondence that I might have best addressed my initial enquiry to the Ministry of Defence? As you have stated you have only the records supplied by the Service Authorities? With this in mind should my future enquiries with the Ministry of Defence verify the existance of the other record of buriel,as submitted by myself, then with their approval would the commision again look at the case of Gnr Barlow?.I thank you for your replies to date but would welcome one final answer from yourselves on his point.
Yours

I have had little dealings with the MoD in the past but on the rare occasions I have spoken with them they have been very thorough managing to source records previously thought destroyed.Its finding the right person to speak to. Tony the search for Anthony still goes on this is all linked if the MoD have anything at all on St Venant in May 1940 it will not be confined to just Gnr Barlow I know.

Best Wishes

Jim

[Verrieres]

Better News today I have had limited access to the recordings dealing with Sgt Wray and Pte F Cottier. There are no mentions of Anthony by name but there is a detailed account of the actions at the HQ .I do have brief details but hopefully I can get access again to give a full acount here.This is just to give something a little more positive on the search for Pte Corkhill after a series of disappointments.

Best

Jim

[dcdl12976]

Looking forward to that Jim, lets face it ANY info may help to find answers and untill we understand the confusion at that time we have little hope of even second guessing what happened to Anthony. The stuff from the CWGC doesnt surprise me they cant be the font of all knowledge in this, however if the MOD has any info i would hope it will surface in due time though even though i work for the MOD i dont have a clue who would be able to help or to contact just a though but maybe a request for info under the freedom of information act though i would think this would be to wide a remit for that avenue, who knows it may be worth a try.

Cheers now and have a good festive season gang.

Dave

[Verrieres]

Hello Dave,
A bit belated as I think I was away when you arrived but WELCOME !. Today has been what I term a good day ! Two e-mails awaited my arrival from work the first was again from the CWGC and this time not only did they concede that the information they hold was supplied by the old War Office (Modern Day Ministry of Defence ) but have provided address,department and point of contact regarding our `missing` casualties.Just as relevant for Anthony Corkhill as Gnr Barlow.What they have stressed is the proof will have to be substancial but they will act on the guidance of the MoD. Now the hard part really starts especially if M.Faivre is now the keeper of the Mayors records? Still it will be a challenge!
Second mail was in relation to the Sound Archive at the IWM as most will know the IWM is preparing for a major refurbishment and workmen are already at work well somehow the audio has come back online albeit it does suffer from loss of link now and again but we can for the moment listen to accounts by McLane,Wray and Cottier and its just dawned on me as I`m typing away that I have notchecked yet for Audio recordings for the period from the RWF and Royal Berks.So hopefully we can have a few more detailed accounts very soon.

Best

Jim

Looking forward to that Jim, lets face it ANY info may help to find answers and untill we understand the confusion at that time we have little hope of even second guessing what happened to Anthony. The stuff from the CWGC doesnt surprise me they cant be the font of all knowledge in this, however if the MOD has any info i would hope it will surface in due time though even though i work for the MOD i dont have a clue who would be able to help or to contact just a though but maybe a request for info under the freedom of information act though i would think this would be to wide a remit for that avenue, who knows it may be worth a try.

Cheers now and have a good festive season gang.

Dave

[dcdl12976]

Thanks for the welcome mate. Nice one as i said ANY info on the confused state of affairs in this area at the time just may give us a clue, as i said before im hoping to get to the area next year with Dad (if at 94 he is well enough to go) you never know sight of the area may just jog his memory for some information though of course as Royal Berks it probably will not be pertinent to this threads aim.

Who was it that said
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

Arthur Conan Doyle i believe

[Verrieres]

Hello hope you all had a nice Christmas ? Apology to John for disturbing him on Christmas day!
Whilst reading through a few things on here and cross referencing with some casualty lists it has dawned on me once again that the CWGC have been ,shall we say, selective in what they have told me in relation to the mass grave which may (may not) contain the RA gunner.

You will recall in their reply to me just a couple of weeks ago ;-

......we do not hold any maps or details regarding battlefield clearance or any mass field graves found in the local area.

or this one;-

.........The records that the Commission holds regarding St. Venant Communal Cemetery were based on the information provided to us by the service authorities, and we do not hold any documentation regarding the mass grave that you had highlighted.

I took them at their word then this evening on their main site ,staring out at me is this;-

There are 253 Commonwealth burials of the 1914-18 war, 10 of which are unidentified, and 177 of the 1939-1945 war, 40 of which are unidentified, in this site. The 1939-45 total includes the 90 originally buried in a mass grave and an officer who is commemorated by a special memorial inscribed "Believed to be".

So they were aware of a mass grave? They were aware of 90 men within that grave (about thirty more than I was) ! Then why consistantly deny any knowledge ? Do they believe a denial will satisfy such an enquiry??? perhaps it would from `Joe Public` but it just heightens my frustrations and renews my determination.Theres more out there I was just coming round to believing that by providing a point of contact within the MoD that the CWGC were finally coming to realise that these `missing` men ,Pte Corkhill and Gnr Barlow matter! Despite the passage of time they need to be brought in from the cold!

Best

Jim

[dcdl12976]

Hmm that is strange Jim i can only assume that the guy you are exchanging E-Mails with doesnt know or look at there site before replying to an E-Mail or it may just be that he is one of very few to deal with what may well be a shed load of enquiries every day, as they say in the house "the honourable Gentleman is being economical with the truth i think".
Just shows though we cannot take anything they say as gospel and indeed "take with a pinch of salt" springs to mind. Could it be that they dont want to get into a war crimes situation investigation in which case it may be there policy not to admit anything related to one. (just a thought) being a civil servant myself i know these things happen it may even be that the relevant paperwork has not been released to the public domain yet and therefore officialy doesnt exist (again just a thought).

Jim could you let me have the contact details in the MOD as since i work for them i just may be able to help, no promises mind. Also give me a brief outline of what questions you want asked.

Cheers now

Dave

[ivor43]

Hi Dave.
as you say, strange.
I am a retired Civil Servant,MOD,(RAF) and i too have been considering the possibilities regarding this situation. I tend to agree with you, but, there is a possibility you may not have considered. They may not be in possession of the full facts. We know the Frenchman is in possession of a number of files whether originals or copies we do not know, nor do we really know how long he has had them. These files appear to have been in the office of the Mayor of Haverskirque previously. So they are effectively out of the British Public Domain. Therefore not subject to freedom of information requests.

You mention the possibility of a War Crime Situation. I am not sure about this, We were only seeking to follow the path of the Tom Rogers Investigation, which I would have expected to Highlight any such problems. So while I would welcome any assistance you may be able to provide, please do not do anything that may cause any problems to yourself or your position within the MoD.


ivor

[dcdl12976]

Ivor, Hmm i had not thought of them not being in full possession of the facts which is rather remiss of me, i would have thought though that if the Frenchman has the original paperwork then the MOD should at least have copies (Or the other way round).

Sometimes things like this are not highlighted simply because it is not policy to even talk about it (i would imagine as an ex MOD civil servant yourself you have run across this). If i can help in any way i will indeed do so, dont worry about me putting my position in danger mate at 60 i can retire anytime so i dont really care anyway. To be fair most officials within the MOD nowadays are extremely helpful and would not consider it an affront if asked in the right way for any help by MOD employee and i do have the advantage that i can use an MOD E-Mail address and telephone number. At thwe end of the day they can only say i cant help you at the worst.

Cheers now

Dave

[ivor43]

hi.
I agree the E mail and MoD phone book can get some very interesting doors opened. i suspect this may be a topic not spoken about.
But good luck, if you can get to the right person, with the right questions. who knows what will come to light.


ivor