saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

[ivor43]

hi Dave.
may i also add my welcome, and thank you for the info. i can appreciate the fact that you father doesn't want to talk about those times. but to hear from someone who was there is absolutely remarkable and brings, to me at least, a sense of reality of what was happening. I have read a great deal of stuff about this time but your fathers words are of greater importance than any words written years later.
thanks again for the info which i find very interesting.


ivor

[ivor43]

good morning John.

I think we have met his guy before but i don't remember this article. any thoughts on the translation ?.

http://www.worcestershireregiment.co...an_h_kallmeyer

seems he was in St Venant 24th ?


ivor

[Baconwallah]

Bore da Ivor,

We may have met him, but he is not on my lists of Germania officers and during the 27th attack was on the far left, beyond the Berks. What he tells about the advance of the 23rd we know already.

The translations provided on the page are atrocious. Anyone translating "Panzerdeckungslöcher" (holes dug to provide cover from tanks) as "Armoured holes in the budget" ought to be shot.

John

[dcdl12976]

Thanks for the welcome guys, John thanks for the map do you know what date is the Berks positions from mate please ?. knowing this makes locating the crossroads far easier, however there doesnt appear to be a crossroads as such close to the footbridge and it may be that it was only a fork, after all Dad is 94 and his memory may not be totally accurate.
You wont find Horst Kallmeyer in the officers list of the period mate he was only a Lanser not becoming an officer till i think 1943. I do agree the translation leaves a lot to be desired but to be fair some of the origional diary looks as though it was unreadable judging by the question marks etc.

Interesting the photo of the Soldier on the canal bank i suspect there would have been qiuite a lot of casualties on the bank. I have to say i still cant get my head around the two HQ,s being right next to each other i would have thought that although it would be good for mutual defence it would also be to easy to take both out with one good artillery barrage. I tend to agree with an earlier post that the farm on the corner was the likely HQ of the DLI unless there was another farm on the other side of the road now occupierd by a more modern building and a car park.

Cheers now

Dave

[Baconwallah]

The 23rd or 25th (away from my archives till Friday night so cannot check). The crossroads is very likely the T about 70 yds west of the footbridge, opposite the Ferme Boulet.

John

[dcdl12976]

Thanks again John that was my feeling if it was there ought to be some ground marks from the artillery explosions unless ploughing has taken them all out.
Somwhere further back in the thread i seem to recall it was postulated that Tonys uncle may have been killed at the farm here the only way i can think of that happening was if the Germans just maybe had an aid station around there after they captured the area and he was taken there by the medics/stretcher bearers from where he was found on the canal bank, sorry if this has been discussed before and i may have got it all wrong.

[Baconwallah]

A good suggestion, Dave, and one which has been considered here already. There was an aid post at Ferme Boulet. I think the identification is unlikely, though, as it would have meant that the Germans transported a wounded prisoner right across their LoC to an aid post outside 3 Pz Div area. Moreover, the man at Ferme Boulet was murdered at noon, at about the same time that 2 DLI HQ was overrun and Anthony was seen and made comfortable on the canal bank.

You mentioned the two HQs (DLI and RWF) being close to each other. The RWF HQ initially was in a house on the south side of St Venant and was moved to a spot close to the DLI on Sunday 26th when it became untenable as a result of enemy shelling.

"While the CO was away with the Battalion IO [visiting 1 Berks HQ, looking for maps of the area] the enemy started a heavy shelling of Battalion Headquarters. This was hardly surprising in view of all the activities taking place around it and of its proximity to the front line. For a time, most of the shells went safely over to bury themselves about 50 yards in rear in a soft field. At length the ramshackle building received a direct hit and partially collapsed. Astonishingly few casualties were caused, most of the occupants crawling out, covered with dust and somewhat shaken, but otherwise unhurt. Headquarters was temporarily moved to the shelter of a deep roadside ditch. The CO now returned and at once set forth again to reconnoitre a new position for Battalion Headquarters. Suitable positions, giving a good view forward, were few and the choice ultimately fell upon a cemetery, back near the Bourne Canal, to which place the second in command was ordered to move Headquarters forthwith.
The cemetery was an oblong enclosure very full of ornate tombstones. At the northern end a gateway gave access from a metalled road which ran along the southern bank of the Bourne [Lys] Canal. On this road, about a hundred yards to the east, stood a farm which was occupied by the DLI Battalion HQ. To the west of the cemetery gate, at a distance of about a hundred and fifty yards, the canal road joined a main road running north and south and which here crossed the canal at bridge ‘E ’. The northernmost houses of St-Venant straggled on either side of the main road as far as bridge ‘E’. Between these houses and the cemetery there was a copse, the floor of which was chiefly swamp."

John

[dcdl12976]

That was my feeling it would not have been logical to have moved him all that way past as i understand it two hospitals in St Venant and possibly at least one unit first aid post and of course the timeings make it impossible.

Another snippet from Dad, he spent his 21st birthday (24th October) in a bunker on the Belgium border just outside a town called Mouchin North of Orchies. At some point his young officer came to him and gave him a small bottle of whisky saying "happy birthday Cooke but dont get caught with it". He also told me that during the retreat they stopped the night in a Chateu where in the cellar they found a large cask of Brandy which they promptly drank despite being ordered to leave it in case it was poisoned (apparently the locals did this sort of thing hoping to catch the Germans out). Realising the orderly Officer/Sgt would notice they filled it back up, i shall leave you to guess what hey filled it with but they were hoping some German Officers would drink some of it in his words " we though it would be bloody funny Germans drinking British ****" Thats exactly as Dad told it.

I hope to go with Dad to his mates grave next year as he wants to place a wreath on it and say a proper goodbye, i just hope at 94 he is fit enough to manage the trip.

Cheers gang.

[Verrieres]

Sorry to divert this but should we make progress with Pte Corkhill any dealings with the CWGC may give some insight into the battle ahead in actually getting any findings officially acknowledged.You may recall the post refering the mass grave containing a Gnr Barlow whose name is subsequently missing from other casualty lists with the CWGC eventually listing him as `No known grave` commemorated on the Dunkirk memorial? Well heres their reply having been sent the grave photograph and the official list from the Mayors office at St Venant......

Thank you for your e-mail of 6th November 2012 regarding Gunner William Alfred Barlow, commemorated on the Dunkirk Memorial.
The Commission does not hold any details regarding any possible place of burial for Gunner Barlow. There are 177 unknown burials of the Second World War in St. Venant Communal Cemetery, and it is possible that Gunner Barlow may be one of these, but there is no evidence to prove that this is the case.
Army Graves Concentration Units would have had the responsibility of removing remains from field grave sites for reburial into a permanent place of burial. As the work of these units predates the involvement of the Commission with the Second World War graves at St. Venant Communal Cemetery, we do not hold any maps or details regarding battlefield clearance or any mass field graves found in the local area.
Attempts were also made by these units to identify remains of individual casualties, but this would have been difficult in areas which had been previously been occupied by the enemy years before.
Gunner Barlow is commemorated on the Dunkirk Memorial as his grave could not be identified. The Commission does not have information on the circumstances of death and initial disposal of remains for servicemen and women with no known grave.
Yours sincerely
Paul Davis
Enquiries Administrator
Commonwealth War Graves Commission

To be brutely honest it was common sense to assume they held no record or further information on Gnr Barlow that was the point of my e-mail to alert them of the fact that there does exist with the Mayors Office another more detailed casualty list. My reply is...

Thank you Mr Davies for your reply regarding Gnr Barlow.I am aware that the occupants of this grave were buried under German supervision in 1941-42 and a full list submitted by the St Venant mayor at the time which was attached with the photograph to my initial mail.I am also aware that post mortems were carried out both at the time of buriel and at the end of the war by the British.It was simply the omission of Gnr Barlow from the later list and his subsequent commemoration on the Dunkirk Memorial rather than in the St Venant Cemetery under a named headstone.
Even if his remains were subsequently `lost` the fact that he is listed on the original exhumation list does he not warrant a `Known to be buried` headstone? There was after all enough personal effects to identify Gnr Barlow initially and the fact that every other soldier from that grave lies at St Venant. I am surprised that the commision holds so few records on this particular location as the locations of the temporary graves and occupants are are well known in France and have appeared in recent years in at least one publication.I was aware that you held nothing further on Gnr Barlow but hoped my e-mail would have alerted you to the possibility that there does exist albeit not currently held by yourselves more information on this matter.The list I forwarded onto you bears the official Mayors office stamp could enquiries not be made through your French Office?
Could you please tell me what the criteria would be to have a soldier,such as Gnr Barlow,remembered with a `Known (Believed) to be buried in this cemetery` headstone. I am not a relative but I am interested in any opinions you may have on this matter
Yours

Best

Jim

PS..................... 177 UNKNOWNS IN ST VENANT ???????????

[Baconwallah]

Well done, Jim. Keep up the pressure.

John