saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

[ivor43]

Hi all.
once again good work guys.
i have also been digging in various directions and come up with some interesting stuff. if you recall i wanted to find out more about the bigger picture, not just RWF/2DLI. on the south side of the Lys was the 2/5 west yorks which i will come back to. on the north in the forest were 9RNF. 6 Y&L and 4 and 5 Royal West Kents. one of which was supposed to be relieving our guys. and it would seem from your missing chap the 1/5 E Surrey.and i haven't really looked very hard. quit a concentration of troops.
now the 2/5 w Yorks in post 382 i linked a document which stated that late on 23/05 they were still holding part of Robecq.but 2 Company's had been detached 1 to Calonne and 1 to St Floris.
I can understand sending a Co to Calonne. it was a major road jct, and Bgd Hq was there.in the link (382) where there is a ref to Hq moving to Merville it mentions covering troops.I think it reasonable to assume these were 2/5 W.Y.
Now let us return to St Floris. why was it so important that it justified a whole Co to defend it, i could understand them being sent to St Venant to defend the bridge, but there does not seem to be anything at St Floris of strategic importance. unless, Hmmm Bridging Equipment. German Bridging Equipment captured by RWF. another interesting question arises here. there is no mention of 2/5 in the RWF WD. but if 2 DLI was given the task then surely the fact that they relieved 2/5 would have been recorded.
my next point is. in link (382) it states that Haverskirque was in German hands on the 24th. On 25th the RWF. WD. tells of a party of German Engineers traveling towards St Venant from direction of Haverskirque. Hmmmm.
this link is not directly concerned with our quest but might make some interesting bedtime reading, you might already know about it


http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/1940/22...st-1940-a.html





ivor

[ivor43]

teecee.
no problem mate.
it seems odd that you come back to St Venant he same time as i get back to St Floris. as you have probably gathered i have expanded my search and found some interesting stuff, but only as far as the forest to the north and Robecq in the south.
one of the main points being the explanation why German Engineers were heading to St Venant from Haverskirque on 25th (RWF. WD ). information seems to point to it being taken on 24th. this brings me right back to the Bridging stuff at St Floris.
With regard to Anthony's location, we know from evidence it was on the canal bank. that would seem to indicate that the POW's where being marched off along the canal, not a road. but as to where we still really have no idea. As far as hospitals are concerned, i still believe that he would have been taken to the one at Calonne. There are some 14 unknowns buried there.


ivor

[ivor43]

just found this, interesting. the engineers were probably the 228 field unit

''On the 22nd May 137th Brigade which by now consisted of 2/5th West Yorks, Don Battalion and some engineers spent the day preparing defences on the road and rail bridges, preparing bridges for demolition and fortifying the villages behind the canal line.

On the 23rd May 32nd Field Regiment arrived and deployed near Neuf Berquin to support 137th Brigade. The Germans crossed the canal in the 137th Brigades sector in the morning and eventually took the high ground at Morbecque and pushed deep into the Foret de Neippe cutting off the 2/5th West Yorks from Brigade HQ. The Germans succeeded in turning the flanks of the battalions companies on the canal line forcing the battalion to withdraw to a new line along the road between Robecq and Calonne.

By the 24th May 2/5th West Yorks had been driven back from the canal but were holding the Germans up at Calonne with the help of three French tanks. Later during the afternoon as a result of a counter attack to the north of the battalions positions the Germans withdrew.

On the 25th May 2/5th West Yorks were relieved by 2nd Division and withdrew into reserve at St. Floris.

On the 28th May 137th Brigade moved to the Dunkirk perimeter via Berthem and Poperinghe where they stayed for the night''.



ivor




On the 24th May the SS-Verfügungs-Division had taken St Venant and then, despite being ordered to halt, continued their advance the following day.

[ivor43]

john.
re the stop order. scroll down to the sentence just above the pic of the RWF memorial

http://www.webmatters.net/txtpat/index.php?id=272


ivor

[ivor43]

hi all.
as you may recall i have been unhappy with some of the dates differing between accounts. but before i get too carried away with what i appear to have found. i would like confirmation of the following if you don't mind

St Floris. Lt Garnett DOD 23/05/40

Robecq. 4189609 Jones.W.H. DOD 23/05/40.

watch this space.

ivor

[jungle1810]

Hello,
The following is from the RED DRAGON page 28. The carrier platoon under Second LT J Garnett led the way to St Floris with "C" company following on foot.Messages were soon coming back to say that the village was in the hands of the enemy, but "C" company continued to advance and at the cost of a few casualties, cleared the village and took several prisoners. Continuing along the road to ST Venant, the carrier platoon came under accurate fire from German anti tank guns and the two leading carriers were knocked out with the loss of both their crews. Among those killed was the the Platoon Commander , Second LT Garnett whose proved efficiency was a grievous loss to the Battalion.
Regards R B D

[jungle1810]

Hello,
From the Red Dragon page 30. "B" company were charged with clearing Robecq but by 11-00 hrs "B" company ceased to exist. The following comes from the W W 2 book Casualties of the Royal Welch Fusiliers. ROBECQ COMMUNAL CEMETERY Jones Walter Henry 4189609 !st Battalion R W F 23 to 26th of May 1940,Age 26 Son of Thomas & Martha
husband of Rosina Jones of Forest Gate Essex Grave 18.
Regards R B D

[ivor43]

hi all.
thanks for the info Brian.
what follows is quite difficult as i have to collate info from several sources. i know it is not directly concerned with our quest, but it might just clear up some of the discrepancies with the dates.
first. the dates of the death of 2nd Lt Garnett. his grave in St Floris together with 6 other RWF men clearly specifies 23rd

http://www.webmatters.net/txtpat/index.php?id=288

therefore, unless CWGC has made a mistake with the 7 men, then RWF/2DLI must have reached Sf Floris on 23rd. the same applies to the Fusilier buried in Robecq


http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead.aspx?cpage=1

this record states clearly 23rd.

Further to this, i think it was YDG that states that they arrived at Calonne by M.T. B Co to proceed to Robecq A,C and D towards St Floris behind the carriers. Also we must remember that St Venant was not their primary task. That was the bridges at Robecq. They only fell back to St Venant when they could not reach their objective.Meanwhile sometime on 24th 2/5 WY had fallen back to defend St Floris and Calonne where we are told they were holding the Germans.if RWF/2DLI had arrived on 24th things may have been a bit different.
This could also explain why Bde HQ pulled back to Merville on 23rd. as part of the planned withdrawal to the Canal Line.
looking at RWF WD it states the comms were cut with B Co on 26th but from the CWGC dates of the deaths are 23rd to 25th. again the WD for 27th has in red possibly 26th.
it appears to me that an error in the WD date has occurred some time prior to 22nd and has been continued.
i hope this makes sense and i am not out of order.


ivor

[Verrieres]

hi all.
thanks for the info Brian.
what follows is quite difficult as i have to collate info from several sources. i know it is not directly concerned with our quest, but it might just clear up some of the discrepancies with the dates.
first. the dates of the death of 2nd Lt Garnett. his grave in St Floris together with 6 other RWF men clearly specifies 23rd

http://www.webmatters.net/txtpat/index.php?id=288

therefore, unless CWGC has made a mistake with the 7 men, then RWF/2DLI must have reached Sf Floris on 23rd. the same applies to the Fusilier buried in Robecq


http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead.aspx?cpage=1

this record states clearly 23rd.

Further to this, i think it was YDG that states that they arrived at Calonne by M.T. B Co to proceed to Robecq A,C and D towards St Floris behind the carriers. Also we must remember that St Venant was not their primary task. That was the bridges at Robecq. They only fell back to St Venant when they could not reach their objective.Meanwhile sometime on 24th 2/5 WY had fallen back to defend St Floris and Calonne where we are told they were holding the Germans.if RWF/2DLI had arrived on 24th things may have been a bit different.
This could also explain why Bde HQ pulled back to Merville on 23rd. as part of the planned withdrawal to the Canal Line.
looking at RWF WD it states the comms were cut with B Co on 26th but from the CWGC dates of the deaths are 23rd to 25th. again the WD for 27th has in red possibly 26th.
it appears to me that an error in the WD date has occurred some time prior to 22nd and has been continued.
i hope this makes sense and i am not out of order.


ivor

Morning Ivor,

Just a word of caution do not rely on the CWGC dates of death they are often approximate dates. I am working my way through a list of personnel found in a mass grave,most are buried at St Venant,yet a lot of the dates appear to be `between` with some covering a 20-30 day period. One case,which I clarified with John,dealt with a young soldier from the Royal Berkshires buried at St Venant the CWGC have a date of death of 10th May 1940.The Royal Berkshires would have been no where near St Venant at the time which raises more questions than I have answers for.
Best


Jim

[ivor43]

hi folks.
Jim. thanks for the warning, but in this case i do not believe them wrong.If we accept that RWF.WD is one day out and further evidence of this is that there is evidence from German accounts the the attack started on 27th not 28th then the dates 23rd to 25th fit exactly with the WD. when the original error occurred who knows , it may have been when they pulled back from the Dyle. If the person responsible for the diary had been killed then whoever took over may have mistaken the date.


ivor