saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

**Baconwallah** · 12-08-2012, 01:17

Tony, the lock keeper's cottage was not quite where the Taverne farm was, the actual distance as the crow flies is about 450 metres. See the photo below. The bridge would have been to the left of the lock, cutting off the bend in the road on both sides.

St Venant satmap 2.jpg

The lock was an obstacle, and tampering with it might have made it even more so. Remember that RWF and DLI were on the wrong side of the canal. Only the bridges were important. There was an old drawbridge, probably over the western lock gates or thereabouts, and the one built by the French engineers. Both lock gates would also have had a walkway, one metre wide at best and therefore barely passable.

The lock keeper's cottage was a landmark and gets the occasional mention. The lock could not be seen from a slit trench, so it doesn't.

To get an idea of the situation, use Google Street View and walk around the area.

John

teecee1941 · 12-08-2012, 19:52

Thanks, John, I was getting the lock keepers cottage and Taverne farm confused as well as picturing the whole scene upside down. I've got my thinking head back on now!

Tony

**Verrieres** · 14-08-2012, 00:56

This may or not be relevant but I have read some of the Questionaires filled in by returning Prisoners of war and held at the National archives.One in particular refers to a 2nd DLI Private (Adamson)who was captured at St venant on the 27th May 1940 he states at the time of capture he was wounded,interrogated as to his Regiment and Division then treated for his wounds at Hospitale De,St Pol,France(Four week stay).The able bodied prisoners who were taken were marched off in the direction of Cambrai (RSM Goddards notes).
At the bottom of these questionaires is a request for information regarding War Crimes or violations of the Geneva convention.Anyone wishing to report these matters is asked to complete a seperate statement on a `Form Q`

Best

Jim

**Baconwallah** · 14-08-2012, 01:09

Interesting, Jim. St Pol and Merville both had a German field hospital and are places where we should look for Anthony. I'm hoping the Volksbund may have relevant records.

John

**ivor43** · 14-08-2012, 19:37

Good Afternoon
You know guy’s just when you think it’s safe to relax and await some replies, along comes an S.S. Officer, who collects broken down vehicles, and starts chucking spanners around, in the shape of Shot Down Tanks.
One got me somewhere between the eye’s, and has cost me some sleep.
Now, would you please correct me if i am wrong, but I was under the impression that RWF and 2DLI were infantry units, and I was not aware that they had tanks. it seems they had a couple of Bren gun carriers, which were leading when they were approaching St Floris on 23^rd and got taken out. But surely if they had tanks they would have been leading?
Like Tony it would appear that my thinking head had gone into stand by mode.
Something you said John didn’t register until our S.S Officer said that this was a Counter Attack to try and stop the German bridgehead around Robecq. I had read that a gap had appeared in the defensive line and I had assumed that RWF and 2DLI were going in to fill the gap.

I think we may have been taking a very short-sighted view of this situation. we seem to be only looking at it from the 23^rd and not what went on before.
What units were in this gap, and what happened to them, there is an odd reference to a M/G unit of 1^st Manchester’s, where did they come from. Were there still small fragments of the previous defenders still operating in the area. And did any of the previous defending units have tanks?
But all this raises another interesting point. We know that the St Venant area was within range of the German Arty on 25^th or 26^th when the HQ Co tried to withdraw to the north. But for how long previously had it been within range.
When we take into account the reference to a pontoon bridge in ‘’Escape to Victory’’ it makes a degree of sense. If your main escape route is liable to be taken out at any time then you need to consider your options. You would need to have an escape route outside the range of the arty. So the bridging stuff that was captured in St Floris? Could it have been British equipment recaptured by the RWF ?
How long had the British units been holding in this area before the German incursion? And what was their escape strategy, bearing in mind they were going to be pushed eastwards?
I think it might be useful to examine the situation before the RWF/2DLI arrived, and our shot down tanks, what type would they have been. Would they have weighed 15 tons, or less.
In the Majors Diary he states he saw RSM Goddard Directing traffic over the bridge. What traffic was this, was it all RWF/2DLI or were there elements of other units? I seem to recall that RWF/2DLI vehicles were sent north not long after they arrived and he says nothing about arty fire (because it was out of range).
What about the Diary’s of the other units, that were in place before the German attack?

It might also explain the disappearing engineers. If they had been attached to one of the original defense units, then if the remnant of their unit had retreated over the bridge would they not have gone with them?

While it may not seem to be too relevant to our quest I think it might be quite beneficial to know exactly what the situation was, that RWF/2DLI were getting into. As all we have are the two Regimental accounts which by their nature are bound to be restrictive.

ivor

**Baconwallah** · 14-08-2012, 21:39

A quick summary for your benefit, Ivor. I'm not going to rewrite the official history.

The SS officer mentioned "gepanzerte Fahrzeuge" which the unknown translator carelessly rendered as "tanks" - no doubt they were the two Bren carriers used in a last attempt to keep the Germans from establishing a bridgehead across the Lys (not Robecq, mind you, I never said that). Further up the road there was another carrier and a burning ammunition lorry belonging to the Manchesters.

Before the 22nd there had been French and British 2nd line units in and around St Venant, changing continuously. On the 22nd French troops began to form a defensive line around Bethune and along the Canal d´Aire from la Bassee to Aire, they were a mixed bag of a few infantry companies (including B Coy 2/5 West Yorks), some pioneers and two tank companies. South of St Venant this amounted to four tank platoons and four infantry platoons for four bridges. These were brushed aside by the Germans on the 24th and the survivors withdrew to Calonne-sur-la-Lys. Most of their tanks (the light Hotchkiss type) had been destroyed.

The 6th Bde (RWF, DLI, Berks) was sent to St Venant on the 24th in an attempt to re-establish the line along the Aire canal to protect the western side of the corridor to Dunkirk. Orders in similar situations (the Glosters at Cassel, for example) were simply to hold to the last man. Escape plans there were none. The Lys canal was the fall-back position. There was a modicum of support provided by Corps tps, the MG bn of the Manchesters, but this support amounted to nothing more than a few MG teams. If any of them escaped, their report would still not have made it into the WD.

The only artillery support in the area, once the French had pulled back, was 99th Field Regt (Bucks Yeo) at le Touquet.

John

**Verrieres** · 17-08-2012, 23:22

I have tried over the past few days to try and source some eye witness accounts,no mean feat considering the years since the incident,however I may have found an account of someone who was evacuated to the HQ Barn and witnessed the events leading up to the capitulation there is of course the inevitable downside which I will come to later .In the Imperial War Museum is an oral testimony of Pte James Wray of the 2nd DLI,quite extensive but from the summary this part/summary may be of interest to our search;-

....defensive positions at St Venant; Germans disguised as women; chickens shot and meal made; fire from German occupied copse and air activity; sniping activities of Lieutenant Peel; anti-tank gun brought up; advance of German troops; start of engagement; capture of maps; casualties; report sent back to Captain Cousins. becoming platoon commander; discussion of troop's performance in battle; proximity and nature of firing on Germans; reactions to fighting; creation of defences; opinion of Bren gun in action; weapons used by Germans and nature of attacks; treatment given to German soldier shot in knee; activities between attacks; wounding from mortar shrapnel; evacuation and treatment from Private Hurst; platoon casualties after wounding; state of Private Fisher; evacuation to Headquarters; action while resting in barn at Headquarters; orders to get away if could; crossing of canal. Aspects of hospitalisation treatment at Regimental Aid Post; journey to Dunkirk and opinion of battalion's chances; events in abandoned school; evacuation from school;

Pte James Wray,somehow,although wounded made it back from the HQ to England but once his wounds were healed he left the Regiment and served with the Gold Coast Regiment.He was interviewed by Peter Hart for The Imperial War Museum Catalogue number 12661.Now the downside the oral collections have been withdrawn and are not readily accesible online .The IWM site reads;-

Access to Audio Recordings on Collections Search...Unfortunately we have to temporarily withhold online access to audio recordings so that some issues can be resolved. We anticipate being able to progressively restore access to the majority of digitised material.If you have an urgent need to gain access to this recording, please contact us.

I think everyone will agree that once reinstated this may prove very interesting.Also in this collection are more reports regarding the actions around St Venant including Sgt McLanes however this is the only account from HQ`s position.
Best
Jim

**ivor43** · 18-08-2012, 23:06

hi all.
I may have been quiet for a couple of days,i have been reading Major Ellis's account, which i find was written in 1954.john, i found the answer as to which unit was in the gap. it was a French unit. quoting from major Ellis.

'' Macforce, covered by the 1st Light Armoured Reconnaissance Brigade, arrived in teh area during the morning and formed a close perimeter defence of Cassel, while 137th Brigade headquarters took up positions between Hazebrouck and Morbecque.[11] In the Polforce sector between Thiennes and Robecq a French unit which had been holding the canal was withdrawn, leaving a gap in the defence which there were no troops to fill. Here elements of a German motorised division—the S.S. Verfügungs (or general service) Division—had crossed unopposed and had advanced to St Venant and the 2nd/5th West Yorkshire on the canal from Robecq to Hinges had moved companies back to Calonne and St Floris, to hold the flank of this enemy salient.''

This is the sort of info i was after, we now have another unit in the area at the relevant time, what have their diaries to say.
But another quote is also fascinating.

''For the most part the enemy remained comparatively quiet during the 25th on this front. German tanks in the neighbourhood of Aire penetrated at one time to within a few miles of Merville, but these were knocked out by artillery fire, and when the 2nd Division arrived, the 6th Brigade established our positions between Tannay and Robecq, turning the enemy out of St Venant and rebuilding the brigade there which had been destroyed.[29] Small bodies of German infantry managed to cross the canal on either side of Béthune, but there was no serious attack and by nightfall the defence of this front was considerably stronger. ''

Here we have another interesting piece of English.
''Rebuilding the Brigade there which had been destroyed ''
puzzle,, should this read Bridge? How, a pontoon bridge or an Auxiliary bridge.
But another point here. the 2nd Division was made up of 4th, 5th and 6th brigades together with a number of RA and RE units. do we have any info re the positions of the RE/RA?

I have also found another interesting piece of info in the following. the article is not directly concerned with our area but makes interesting reading.

http://home.scarlet.be/vdmeiren/The%...ay%201940.html

but i am going to quote one passage from it.

''The frontline was 110 km long, each division had to defend 10 km on the Lys river and 6km on the derivation canal. The new defense line was therefore too long and had several disadvantages First there was a shortage of equipment (few barbed wire, mines, telephone wires etc.). Secondly there was the Lys river itself, which was very shallow, had a lot of curbs and was mostly only 50cm deep (it had been unfortunately a very dry season). The riverbank on which the Belgians were located was lower than the riverbank on which Germans were approaching. This and the spring vegetation, which couldn’t be removed on time, enabled the Germans to approach the Belgian lines without being noticed. ''

I find the reference to the depth of the river very interesting. 20 ins. not really very deep. would this be a similar depth at St Venant.

Another interesting paragraph is the following.( i think it should be Major Ellis). I like the last line,in italics.

''Mayor Ellis, author of the Official History, wrote "there were no staff meetings between the BEF and the Belgian army". This is incomplete as the Belgians did pass all the information they had to the French and BEF but the BEF refused to have discrete consultations with the Belgian army. In The Official History you will also read that the Belgians were not prepared to exchange information about their military plans. Liddlel Hart writes about this the following: " This is a clear example of the difference between " official history" and real history". ''

This is what we have to sort out.

ivor

**ivor43** · 19-08-2012, 10:12

Mornin all.

It would seem that Major Ellis is the official historian for this phase of the war.But there are so many typo's in this, on line, version that i suspect it would be best if we could get hold of a copy of the original work.
It would also account for the reason why YDG seems to have quoted 'Verbatim' from Major Ellis with regard to the St Venant area.
Another interesting point. we are told that on 24th 2DLI were tasked with holding St Floris. did they takeover from 2nd/5th West Yorks.
There is also reference that the 'to the last man' defense of the Lys may not have been the case.

Ivor

**Baconwallah** · 19-08-2012, 12:56

Ivor, for the troops in the gap see my post #326 which already mentions 2/5 West Yorks. This Bn was part of 46 Div, sent to France as a labour force. It was withdrawn to Calonne and subsequently defended the bridge at Merville before being replaced by 6 KORR. I can detail the French units for you, but they are irrelevant to the fate of Anthony Corkhill.

Before spreading gunners and engineers around, please remember that 2 Div was given a section of more than 20 miles to cover. Normally this would have required 4 divisions. The only support for 6 Bde was the 99th Field Regt (Bucks Yeo).

The Lys in the sector we're interested in had been canalised and was certainly deeper than 20 in to allow traffic. East of Armentières there is no shipping on the river so 20 in would be quite plausible.

John