saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

**Baconwallah** · 09-08-2012, 23:17

Ivor, mon ami, I am not entirely withdrawing from this thread. I shall share what I get from my German contacts, of course, assuming that I get anything useful, and shall continue the search for Anthony Corkhill. I just do not think that there is anything to be gained by my rewriting the history of 1 RWF at St Venant. As I said, it has been done before and done well, in my opinion.

Causing disquiet? Not with me. No worries, mate.

The SS officer's testimony is from the St Venant War Crimes reports, 1946. The auxiliary bridge is without a doubt the French wooden bridge built in Jan-Feb 1940 across the Lys 200 yards N of St Venant. The troops "not of his regiment" were most likely supply columns belonging to 3 Pz Div and on the way to Haverskerque. As the statement was made in 1945-1946, it is no more reliable - possibly less - than the eyewitness statements written by the RWF officers in the prison camp. As for the translation, it is correct but slightly quaint - "shot down tanks" is a literal translation of the German "abgeschossen" which sounds a bit funny to me. I can get you the original German text if you want.

John

**ivor43** · 10-08-2012, 01:15

John.
I am glad you are still with us.
I am quite happy with the idea of shot down tanks. sounds reassuringly foreign. But I was puzzled with the translation as Auxiliary. I can understand it’s use in relation to.- forces – nurses – power units - but it certainly seems odd in relation to a bridge. Especially a bridge which was the main highway north from the village. Oh incidentally my German is non existent.
I wonder would this Officers testimony be given under oath. If it was then it would, rightly or wrongly, carry more weight than ordinary evidence.
I found 2 maps which I think may be of interest. They are in Members gallery – vori101. I could not get them to insert in this post.

ivor

**Baconwallah** · 10-08-2012, 01:37

Ivor, the statement was under oath and dated 12 July 1946.

The German text says "Behilfsbrücke" which the unknown interpreter translated as "auxiliary bridge". Call it auxiliary, call it temporary, whatever, it was the French wooden bridge that was inserted into the main road north through St Venant early in 1940 because the old bridges of the Route Nationale could not cope with the expected heavy wartime traffic.

I should add that the SS officer, who commanded part of the Germania rear echelon [the Technische Fahrzeug Kompanie], used the sentences quoted in his description of his trip on 28th May from rear HQ at Busnes to the front north of the Fôret de Nieppe and back, by way of St Venant and Haverskerque. His job was to recover disabled German vehicles and get them back for repairs.

I can't find your maps in the Gallery, only four shots from Malta. Somehow I always get lost in the Gallery.

John

**ap1** · 10-08-2012, 07:19

Originally Posted by vori101

But since I was advised to be careful about what I said in an earlier post. I have, with my insistence on obtaining the answer to a particular question, sensed that my position is causing disquiet amongst some people. Let me be Perfectly clear on this. In my last fulltime job, Admin Support with the Hercules IPT at RAF Wyton. I was cleared to handle Confidential and Secret Documents. And as you may know you Do Not sign a release from the Official Secrets Act. So you can be assured that I am fully conversant with the requirements of dealing with sensitive material.
Let me stress this. I will not put any info on here which could be classed as controversial, upsetting to anyone or of a personal nature without some Permission.

ivor

Hi Ivor, just for clarity. The only person who has expressed disquiet was me! This was in relation Lt Col Harrison. The point about the forum is its a public place and you and the other guys are researching in the public gaze, comments or views that you perhaps express in private in a dusty office over a coffee, well, thats a different environment to this area, especially if what you say or uncover has potential impact on surviving relatives. That was all that I was expressing and reminding you about. The thread is interesting, I hope you get to the end of the story. And for background, as well as my Royal Welch service, i'm also a former police officer used to handling sensitive information!

**ivor43** · 10-08-2012, 11:09

788px-21May-4June1940-Fall_Gelb.jpg map 1940.jpg
John
these were the maps i mentioned. finally figured how to load them.
not easy

ivor

**Baconwallah** · 10-08-2012, 14:10

Try this one, Ivor. From the YDG article, 1954.

John

St-Venant Final Position.jpg

**ivor43** · 11-08-2012, 09:29

Good Morning.

I think it is going to be another hot one out here on the West Wales Riviera. But while it is still quiet I have been thinking, about alternative sources of info.
We know of the 2 main units, RWF and 2DLI, there is a possibility of info from R.E. but I was wondering if there is any possibility of another source. As I have said before my father was RCS and I know that he was one of 27 signallers attached to a RA unit.
Would RWF and 2DLI. or Btn Hq, have similar groups attached, and if so, would they have kept their own records. Or would they just have been included in unit records.

ivor

**Verrieres** · 11-08-2012, 10:48

Originally Posted by vori101

Good Morning.

I think it is going to be another hot one out here on the West Wales Riviera. But while it is still quiet I have been thinking, about alternative sources of info.
We know of the 2 main units, RWF and 2DLI, there is a possibility of info from R.E. but I was wondering if there is any possibility of another source. As I have said before my father was RCS and I know that he was one of 27 signallers attached to a RA unit.
Would RWF and 2DLI. or Btn Hq, have similar groups attached, and if so, would they have kept their own records. Or would they just have been included in unit records.

ivor

Morning Ivor,
Signals I believe were attached to the battalions at this stage so I think their records would have been incorporated into the parent groups diary.Thats not a bad suggestion though because ,apart from "DLI,RWF and R.Berks ` there would have been other units present each having their own Diaries(If they survived!)
Just to clarify a point on Diaries on the whole they were quite comprehensive,casualty lists,signal,Officers,Detached personnel,those evacuated beyond the RAP,Awards for Bravery etc etc unfortunately at this time confusion reigned and if the diaries were ever completed to such a standard they were either lost or captured (If captured where would they be?) but in the most case scenario they were never done,I have a copy of the original `Diary` scribbled on a single sheet.
On another totally different note I came across a set of photographs last night from 2003-2009 showing St Venant bridges canals etc I know these are in the main modern replacements but does anyone know if any of the bridges photographed portray an area where `our bridge` would have been. The link to the collection is;-
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cpasaintvenant/page2/

Best

Jim

**Baconwallah** · 11-08-2012, 12:02

War Diaries: any signallers or engineers attd to 1 RWF or 2 DLI would never have been more than a few men, so no WDs.

The photo of the "bridge" with a house in the centre shows the St Venant lock in the southern arm of the Lys canal as seen from the cemetery side. The house is the lock keeper's cottage. The wooden bridge would have been a few yards beyond the lock.

John

teecee1941 · 12-08-2012, 00:30

Originally Posted by Baconwallah

War Diaries: any signallers or engineers attd to 1 RWF or 2 DLI would never have been more than a few men, so no WDs.

The photo of the "bridge" with a house in the centre shows the St Venant lock in the southern arm of the Lys canal as seen from the cemetery side. The house is the lock keeper's cottage. The wooden bridge would have been a few yards beyond the lock.

John

For a while now, I've had a picture of the bridge and its surroundings in my head. The lock keepers cottage was about where the Taverne farm was that was being used as HQ. The bridge was very near, just yards away. The image in my mind was supported by Bob Lake's painting which showed a reasonable panoramic view of the area. The last day or two, doubts have crept into my mind and I would be pleased if anyone can put me back on an even keel. These are my doubts;-

I have read several accounts of the action on the bridge including Major Metcalfe's diary. I do not remember reading anything about the lock. I have travelled a few times on Narrowboats on the British canals and I am aware of the importance of the lock system. The lock itself is an imposing structure and, as we know, separates the two levels of water. I think it is strange why the lock does not seem to be mentioned. The lock keepers cottage seems to be mentioned now and again but not the actual lock. I would have thought that the resourceful RWF or DLI would have made some sort of use of the lock when the going was getting unbearably tough.

I'm sure someone will explain

Tony