saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

**Baconwallah** · 06-08-2012, 20:14

Ivor, what you really want are surveillance camera tapes.

In my opinion there is no evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, for a second crossing. Reputable historians (Faivre, Sebag-Montefiore, Kemp and Graves to name but a few) found no trace of one. All you have is 'yes but' and 'what if'.

John

**Verrieres** · 06-08-2012, 23:00

If there was no Pontoon then the author is not only guilty of not checking his sources but adding to the re-writing of history (albeit a small piece but re-written all the same).I think what Ivor wrote early in this thread is now becoming more relevant `As I saw it` the truth but from a different angle or perspective.CSM McLane,Capt Townsend,2Lt Michael Farr,Pte Luke Bowden,Pte Tom Rodgers,RSM Goddard all accounts from those who were there each fighting their little own battles for survival each story a true account as seen by them at the time.Everyone true but unfortunately for Tony not the slightest bit of help in finding Anthony Corkhill what we need is an account of what happened at the HQ in those fateful final hours does this account exist? I do not know but we continue to search.
Historians and authors base their accounts on what others who were either there or took part in the planing of such operations tell them for they are the story tellers.Each new author relies heavily on what has gone before ,read the credits of the more recent accounts and we find credits to earlier works and previous authors ,who in turn have credits to even earlier works...re-telling of the events in their words.As an example I know Tony has written to Sebag-Montefiore author of dunkirk Fight to the last man but it was only tonight that I noticed that the author acknowledges the work of M.Faivre in St Venant to Robeqc ! As a main source.If we rely on any published work we may have to do a bit of detective work back through these publications in search of original sources and not take everything(as I often do!!!) as gospel because of an authors reputation.
Ivor your temp bridge..it may be ,as John suggests one of the Temp structures thrown up by the Germans then quickly destroyed/dismantled in their panic at encountering British forces....or maybe you refer to this.I will quote directly from St Venant-Robeqc;-

The Bridge on the Lys Canal
Having arrived in St Venant on 15th November 1939 the 6th Heavy Bridge Company was tasked with building a bridge over the two arms of the canal level with the locks.It took until 21st December for the first equipment to reach the company.Construction work commenced on 6th January 1940.The method of assembly was identical to that used in building the Epinette bridge except that this bridge was made from wood not metal.
From the very beginning work was hampered by the icy conditions.They were unable to drive the piles into the ground correctly and so they had to use a crane bearing pontoon which belonged to a local business and was at a site in Arques.In the event all the canals were frozen and the apparatus could not be transported to St Venant.
Two sections from the 16th Heavy Bridge Company stationed at Merville arrived in St Venant on 20th January.Their mission was to build a small temporary construction comprising a channel with variable levels and with a six metre opening onto the locks and a small drawbridge 14.85 metres wide over the River Lys.This would allow convoys to move more easily whilst waiting for work to recommence at the main site.Work started on 21st January and was completed by 6th February.

The main bridge was of course eventually completed and on the 6th April was handed over to the General Officer Commanding the 7th Army.....but what became of this temporary structure? Is this the Temporary Bridge Ivor you have been trying to recall?

Best
Jim

**ivor43** · 07-08-2012, 01:18

Hi again.
Jim, Thank you for finding confidence in my ‘’Truth As I see it’’. Once you realise this it puts things in a different light. The other important point you have found, is the way authors use other published work as source material giving credit to the other author. I found a glaring example of this in a quote I gave from Major Ellis in relation to the war in France and Flanders 1939-1940 about the History of St Venant, This is IDENTICAL, to the account in YDG.
There is another problem, when researching you need to access original documents, we can not do this because M Faivre has cornered the market in info re St Venant area and we can not get anything without going through him. So if he decides he can find nothing and pulls out we can do nothing. As he already has done. As it is no longer in the public domain we are totally dependant on his mood. This is not really acceptable.
Maybe now you can understand why I am so insistent that we find as much original work as possible. We have to use published work as a basis for further search, finding their source material. If we can. We can only keep digging.
Now with regard to this temporary bridge, I don’t think it is my bridge, From the account I got the impression that they came across the bridge when they were approaching the area from the east. I will have to see if I can find it again.

Ivor

teecee1941 · 07-08-2012, 19:45

Ivor, in my humble opinion, you've hit the nail on the head when you say Mr Faivre has 'cornered the market' in the Saint Venant area. It looks like Saint Venant is his property.

Tony

**ivor43** · 08-08-2012, 03:07

John.
I am sorry but I do Not want surveillance tapes. I want something much more difficult the truth.
The deeper we go with this it seems the less we actually know. I have found the On line work by Major Ellis quotes extensively from YDG. Tony finds a response from another researcher quoting from M Faivre. So how many other works are interlinked.
The book Jim has seems to be quoting from a different, as yet unknown source, so it can not be dismissed without investigating. As I said some time ago, if we find something that doesn’t fit with accepted accounts, well, so be it.

ivor

**Verrieres** · 08-08-2012, 11:38

Originally Posted by vori101

John.
I am sorry but I do Not want surveillance tapes. I want something much more difficult the truth.
The deeper we go with this it seems the less we actually know. I have found the On line work by Major Ellis quotes extensively from YDG. Tony finds a response from another researcher quoting from M Faivre. So how many other works are interlinked.
The book Jim has seems to be quoting from a different, as yet unknown source, so it can not be dismissed without investigating. As I said some time ago, if we find something that doesn’t fit with accepted accounts, well, so be it.

ivor

Hello Ivor,
The book I quoted from is ,as I posted,St Venant-Robeqc by M.Faivre there is a more up todate version retitled Les combats de St Venant 22 - 27 mai 1940 but I do not have that one.To be fair to M.Faivre he is very much in demand and not knowing him personally,nor having any direct contact with him I will not be commenting on his participation in this matter.

Best
Jim

**Baconwallah** · 08-08-2012, 12:35

Ivor, mon ami, I am glad that you are discovering the joys of historical research for yourself. Not that easy, and I wish you good hunting.

In your search for the truth as yet undiscovered by your predecessors, I can offer the following quotes from the testimony of Hauptsturmführer Herbert Christiansen, SS Germania, who described his journey from the Aire-la Bassée canal to Haverskerque. The translation is not mine.

"North of St VENANT, in the neighbourhood of the auxiliary bridge however, several shot down enemy tanks and armoured vehicles stood about, which had been shot down during a counter-attack to prevent the establishment of the German bridge-head."

"On the return journey I stopped at the auxiliary bridge north of St VENANT owing to the formations which did not belong to the Regt coming towards us from the opposite direction."

Other approaches:

Are there any survivors of the action still alive in Wales? In Newcastle and Durham? If so, go and talk to them. It would also be interesting to go and talk to M Faivre in person [I may do that myself in the autumn].

If you confine yourself to searching for documents on the internet, you will be disappointed. And besides, not everything you see on the internet is necessarily true.

I shall follow your revelations with interest but do not think that there is anything to be gained by attempting to [re]write the history of the fighting around St Venant myself - others have done that already, and done it well. I shall now concentrate my research on the 1st Bn in 1914-1918 again.

John

**Swiper** · 08-08-2012, 17:21

Originally Posted by Verrieres

I
Historians and authors base their accounts on what others who were either there or took part in the planing of such operations tell them for they are the story tellers.Each new author relies heavily on what has gone before ,read the credits of the more recent accounts and we find credits to earlier works and previous authors ,who in turn have credits to even earlier works...re-telling of the events in their words.

Well put Jim, its 'historical piggybacking' if someone pulls out all their personal sources on this and starts totally from scratch then we may be actually able to learn something new...

**Aled Roberts** · 09-08-2012, 22:28

Originally Posted by Baconwallah

Ivor, what you really want are surveillance camera tapes.

Funny you should say that John. I have been following this thread with great interest, but unfortunately can't add anything as it is outside of my normal stomping ground research wise.

When I read this I wondered if there may be some aerial photographs taken around these dates by the RAF of the area that may help things along? Hendon might be a good start? I will ask around some of my RAF type chums.

Richard

**ivor43** · 09-08-2012, 22:56

Evening All

John. Let me start off by saying that I am Surprised, somewhat bemused and, not to put too fine a point on it, damn well gutted, at your withdrawing from this. You have always been the lead on this as you have the contacts, that the rest of us don’t. I will come back to this later.
Your point about surviving veterans of this action is interesting. But i would not be prepared to interview any 90ish year olds with regard to something which may have painful memories for them.

Now, with regard to your S.S. Officer. Intriguing.
Auxiliary. Additional. Supplementary. Reserve.

with Synonyms – Backup. Ancillary, Secondary. Hmmmm.
O.K. can this testimony be believed?
So somewhere to the north of St Venant we have an additional/backup bridge. Fascinating, but ,if my map reading skills haven’t faded with age, I believe that St Venant is probably at the most southerly point of the Lys, which, from there flows north east. Very helpful. Grrrrrr.
The second quote is quite interesting. Who were these troops ’’not of his regiment’’
It would appear that our S.S. Officer may have seen the advanced elements of a unit from Army Group Fourth. Which was advancing from the south? This is probably why he didn’t recognize them. I won’t be able to check this out for some time. So I don’t know if this was the unit that attacked Merville. Possibly.
Now if this testimony, and it’s translation, can be believed this is the first Direct, reliable, (eye Witness) evidence we have of a second bridge.
John. What is your opinion of the translation?
To return to my first point.
I have already expressed my feelings on your pulling out.
But since I was advised to be careful about what I said in an earlier post. I have, with my insistence on obtaining the answer to a particular question, sensed that my position is causing disquiet amongst some people.
Let me be Perfectly clear on this.
In my last fulltime job, Admin Support with the Hercules IPT at RAF Wyton. I was cleared to handle Confidential and Secret Documents. And as you may know you Do Not sign a release from the Official Secrets Act. So you can be assured that I am fully conversant with the requirements of dealing with sensitive material.
Let me stress this. I will not put any info on here which could be classed as controversial, upsetting to anyone or of a personal nature without some Permission.

ivor