saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

**Baconwallah** · 01-08-2012, 20:26

If I'm not mistaken, St Venant and Merville together have 58 unknowns. CWGC records show that none of these were DLI - hard to believe.

Unknowns come in two varieties, totally unknown and partially unknown i.e. only the rank or regiment is known. Of those casualties of which the regt is known. none served with the DLI. OK, I can accept that. But how about the really unknowns, I wonder?

John

**Verrieres** · 01-08-2012, 21:54

Originally Posted by Baconwallah

If I'm not mistaken, St Venant and Merville together have 58 unknowns. CWGC records show that none of these were DLI - hard to believe.

Unknowns come in two varieties, totally unknown and partially unknown i.e. only the rank or regiment is known. Of those casualties of which the regt is known. none served with the DLI. OK, I can accept that. But how about the really unknowns, I wonder?

John

I believe they have answered my direct question rather well....I never asked if any of the unknowns were DLI ..of course if they are total unknowns they are exactly that.This was the question I posed to the CWGC .In hindsight I should have posted both Question and answer.Sorry for any confusion.

Comments: I wonder if you can tell me if there are any headstones at St Venant Communal Cemetery and Merville Cemetery from the May 1940 period which are known to be from The Durham Light Infantry but whose personal details are unknown ie The unknown headstone bears a DLI Regimental crest ? Any help you can provide would greatly assist in tracing the last movements of a friends uncle Pte Anthony Corkhill who is commemorated on the Dunkirk Memorial and is listed as died on the 29th May 1940.Thank you

Best
jim

**Baconwallah** · 01-08-2012, 22:15

Pity the CWGC didn't add how many headstones have a regimental crest, out of the 58 unknowns.

John

**ivor43** · 01-08-2012, 23:02

Hi All
I have been reviewing earlier stuff ,before I got involved and in post 6 and 10 ap1 quotes from the RWF diary. Whilst we are in agreement that they may be I bit suspect it’s all we have.
It states that HQ Coy tried to withdraw to Haverskirque but in the course of the withdrawal suffered heavy casualties from mortar fire.
So does this put what is left of HQ Coy in Haverskirque, not the cemetery, or Calonne, Or did they fall back ??? any info ??
BN HQ, what remained of D Co the rest of A and C Co’s under Capt Pritchard were still at St Venant, where’s Col Harrison?
A and C Co’s were ordered to take up position on 2 DLI’s left flank holding the St Venant – Calonne Rd.( St Floris Eastwards ?)
Would I be right in assuming that the diary would be kept at HQ which now could be at Haverskirque. Which would explain one puzzle, I was’nt really aware that there was a HQ Co. I thought there where only Bde,Bn and Co HQ’s. or is this Brigade HQ
This might explain something else, which I will come to later.
In post 10 is the report that the bridge was blown, can we ignore YDG for now and concentrate on what we have,
The bridge is blown, A and C Co’s together with the remnant of D Co 2DLI are spread somewhere to the east. The only way over the Lys is to swim, under fire they take 30% casualties, seems reasonable so far, but one problem, where is Col Harrison?.
Well Major Townsend sees him crossing fields towards Haverskirque, towards HQ?
Did he swim the Lys?
At this point the Brigadier decides to relocate to La Motte, this I assume is La Motte De La Bois a small village on the road north from Merville, on the eastern side of the Foret De Neippe. As to how they got there I have no idea, they may have gone east through La Corbe then north somewhere, without having to go as far as Merville.
Now this is not fantasy, well maybe the Col swimming the Lys, it is based on
The 2 diaries, somewhat at odds with YDG.
So where is the Colonel. ?
My purpose in this post is to try and prove why we have to try and find fresh evidence. Using the Diary’s, even if suspect, give a totally different account than YDG.
So which is right.

ivor

**Baconwallah** · 02-08-2012, 00:45

Dont' use the WD, Ivor, it's full of errors.

Capt Clough-Taylor is stated to have been killed during the withdrawal of HQ Coy to Haverskerque. He wasn't. He crossed the bridge with Col Harrison - his own statement, written in captivity, was used for the YDG article.

Dr Lundie is stated to have been missing after a direct hit on Bn HQ at 0600. He wasn't, he was at his Aid Post in a farm along the Haverskerque road where he was captured on the 27th.

Lt Hood is stated to have been missing after the direct hit on Bn HQ at 0600. He wasn't, he was killed later that morning firing an anti-tank rifle in the cemetery.

Bn HQ was not shelled until 0800.

The entries for the 24th and 25th speak of a withdrawal. It wasn't, it was an advance.

The bridge is stated to have been blown. It wasn't, as the sappers had disappeared.

Troops of A Coy are stated to have swum the canal. They didn't. What was left of A Coy was captured in a farm where they had tried to make a last stand.

And so on.

The WD would have been kept by Lt Hood, the Adjutant. After he was killed, the WD was completed (or summarised because the real WD was missing, which seems likely) by the survivors of 1 RWF - two 2/Lts, the QM and sixty men. The 2/Lts and QM surely made a brave attempt, but none of them had any idea of what had been going on outside his immediate surroundings. The WD reflects that.

John

**ivor43** · 02-08-2012, 01:26

John.
The problem is, we can not trust either.At least the W.D. was written by people whose memory, may have been a bit fresher than POW's writing 2/3 yrs later.
We have to find something fresh, like Jim's Cafe, which opens the possibility of a new line of enquirey or the possibility that Anthony's wounds may have been superficial, and he could have been to a degree mobile.
Is there any possibility that a place like the I.W.M. has anything or has someone already checked them.
I think i might send them an e mail,and see what we get.

ivor

**Baconwallah** · 02-08-2012, 12:53

Form the foreword to the series of YDG articles:

"The account which follows has been compiled from the personal recollections of the surviving officers
of the Battalion who were taken prisoners of war. It was taken down at an early date, in the form of rough
notes which had to be concealed from the prison camp authorities. After a lapse of about three years,
when conditions in the camps became easier, it was transcribed into its present form and was
subsequently typed out on return to England.

Being based on the personal recollections of a limited number of officers it is inevitable that a certain
amount of the story has not been recorded. Three of the surviving officers were platoon commanders who
cannot be expected to know much about what went on outside of their own relatively small orbit. Both
the officers from Battalion Headquarters were sometimes away on missions at the same time and
something may have been lost to the narrative from this cause. In the final action at St-Venant, the
Battalion was widely deployed and from certain sub-units such as C Company, there was no one
available to tell the tale of the last few hours. The account is accurate, however, to the extent that
whatever has been written down has been vouched for by an officer who was present at the time."

Considerably more reliable than the WD, and the best we have.

John

teecee1941 · 03-08-2012, 00:28

Something which has puzzled me for a few days now;- RSM Goddard stated that he was captured 'on the morning of the 27th May'. He goes on to say that he found Anthony lying on the canal bank, near the village......and that, 'the fighting in the area had ceased'. I would guess that he was still referring to the morning because he does not say 'later that day' or 'some time later' and besides the time he was allowed to spend with his batman would have been curtailed by the guards. Had he been able to spend an unlimited amount of time with Anthony, I am sure he would have written about it.

My point is this;- I have read two or three times recently that the fighting finished around 20-30hrs. So, why did he indicate that the fighting had finished in the morning. No doubt there'll be a simple explanation, but for the moment, it's got me beaten.

Tony

**Baconwallah** · 03-08-2012, 00:45

Originally Posted by teecee1941

My point is this;- I have read two or three times recently that the fighting finished around 20-30hrs.

Brig Furlong crossed the bridge into St Venant at approx 09:15. Having spoken to Maj Owen (2 i/c 1 RWF) the Brigadier left it to Col Harrison when withdrawal should begin and the order reached him around 11:00. Since the RWF had only 30 to 40 men left, they were immediately sent back across the bridge in ones and twos. DLI HQ had already been cut off by the advancing German tanks along the tow path. Fighting must have finished well before mid day. By 16:30 the front line had moved to le Touquet, north of Haverskerque.

John

**ivor43** · 03-08-2012, 00:53

Hi All.
John mon ami you have my greatest respect for the tenacity with which you defend YDG. Your latest post gives it impressive credentials.
However, I have serious doubts that it would be accepted as evidence. Only the original documents would be acceptable. Once a document is transcribed it can be open to challenge. You know quite well how easy it is to make slight errors when transcribing from hand written documents. The Majors Diary would have more evidential value.
This is why I believe we have to find something different.

Ivor.