saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

**ivor43** · 31-07-2012, 00:07

John.
If this info re his wounds is correct then this really could make a massive difference. If we have a fairly mobile, with P/K’s, Anthony, then anything is possible. Getting to the Café would not have been a problem.
And in order for him not have been posted MIA his position must have been known. But by whom?
I still think my idea has merit, of course.:)

But I am wondering about my idea that Anthony may have been wearing ‘civies’, in order to get him out of the area. The problem with this is, if Anthony is not in uniform then the terms of the Geneva Convention no longer apply to him, and his lack of Dog Tags, make this even worse. This situation not only applied to RAF being aided with clothing by locals but also to Escaped POW’s. there are a number of instances of executions, as Spy’s, by the SS, in these sort of circumstances.
So their denial of shooting a soldier, would at least to them, be quite justified.

Now if my memory is correct then I think I read that the War Crimes Commission did not fully investigate one of the incidents which sort of seems odd.
Unless.( fantasy time John.)
If you have the report of a body, Shot by the SS, in front of witnesses. And the only means of ID are these witnesses, this is not good evidence. Hearsay and not acceptable.
I would think for an investigating officer, this is very difficult. You know what was going on. You know the witnesses are telling the truth. But you do not have official identification. So what can you do, record it, but you can not investigate it.
But that is not the most difficult part. Every one is looking for a Uniform, even M Faivre. If there is even the remotest possibility of this scenario. Then maybe someone should possibly have looked for an apparent civy with leg wounds.

Back to reality.
Jim, you are right I would have called the more serious first. But I tend to agree with John, a neck wound would be easier to spot then a minor leg wound.
But you know a stomach wound cold be anything from a scratch to something much more serious.
However the Memory loss could explain some odd things :-
Might it not account for his leaving his Dog Tags back in UK.
If RSM Goddard was aware of it as I assume he would if Pte Towns was aware of it.
might it not account for his apparent protection of Anthony.
But what ever caused this must have occurred before they left UK.
Very odd indeed.

ivor

**Baconwallah** · 31-07-2012, 00:13

Originally Posted by teecee1941

The Red Cross say there are no records of Anthony being in a POW camp.

If it was indeed Anthony, the combination of missing dog tag and missing memory would have kept him out of the Red Cross books as Anthony Corkhill. He would be in the Red Cross books as "Anon" or whatever term they used. He wouldn't be the only one either.

John

**Baconwallah** · 31-07-2012, 00:20

Ivor, M Faivre in his book describes the case of a wounded DLI soldier named Robert, who waited until the Germans had gone, found shelter in a house and several days later, when the locals returned, was lovingly cared for by them and taken to a civilian hospital. In the end he was betrayed and subsequently disappeared. If something like this had happened to Anthony, the locals would have known all about it and would still remember and re-tell the story. They don't.

Goddard only said "wounded in both legs", and that could be anything from superficial scratches to shell fragments close to the femoral arteries. I think it is a bit dangerous to accept Anthony was "fairly mobile" - if he was, why couldn't they take him with them? "We could not carry him" is what Goddard said. Apparently he needed to be carried.

John

**ivor43** · 31-07-2012, 01:19

John.
That was not that unusual there were instances of RAF lads who stayed with families for an extended period of time, until someone betrayed them. But this is not quite the same. This is possibly Anthony being moved out a matter of hours after his comrades, in the same direction in which they had gone, maybe putting him within a couple of miles of them. As we know they were in the Forest. And if this farm was supplying customers from the south, then it was very likely to have customers to the north.
Hmmm
This loss of memory intrigues me as I said in my previous post. But I would be surprised if any record would be found in his Med Records. But, Tony, if Goddard was protecting his old friend because of it, he may not have been that well known. However if his Med Record is available it might make interesting reading. the same if we could come up with a P/M Report.
With regard to the idea of Anthony becoming a local hero. I think in the situation it would be a case of, If you don’t know you can’t tell, so maybe the only people who knew were the St Venant people and the farmer.

Ivor

**Verrieres** · 31-07-2012, 01:46

A little more information for you regarding the Private who contacted the Corkhill Family I eventually found a Pte Towns the only DLI Towns anyway...4448417 Pte J A towns Prisoner of war number 3500 Camp in 1945 Stalag 21B his number gives me an enlistment date of between 24th January 1930 to 7th May 1931.Anthony Corkhill was in the next intake enlisting between 1st May 1931 and march 1933(Source Army Form B 358)
I have also read here that Tony has found another Corkhill who served with the Durham Light Infantry I know of a Pte H Corkhill also a Prisoner of War ,PoW number 32341 Stalag 344.4866292 Pte H Corkhill originally enlisted in the Leicestershire Regiment.
There also appears to be another Diary/Biography with a Chapter/Section on the mans capture at St venant.Unpublished account by Lt M Farr 2 DLI Signals I`ve tracked down the original to the Durham Records Office in Durham city.
Best
jim

**Baconwallah** · 31-07-2012, 14:21

M Faivre in his book recounts the experiences of the villagers. Some remained in St Venant itself, sheltering in their cellars, but most people had fled or had been evacuated and these did not return until May 29th at the earliest. Some did not return until June.

He knows of only two cases where British soldiers received civilian help, One was the soldier named Roger, described in my previous post. The other case concerned two men who had sheltered in a barn in Robecq, were given civilian clothes and left for Merville but then found themselves in the middle of a German convoy and were either captured or shot.

If Anthony had received civilian help in getting away, there would still be a local memory of the fact. There isn't. I think we can discount this one.

Having checked the witness statements of the St Venant War Crimes commission, it appears that atrocities were committed to the west of St Venant, in the southern part of St Venant itself (the hospital) and further east in Calonne and Merville. I can find no reports of atrocities along the canal bank in the cemetery - Taverne Farm area.

Summing up, I think we have only two possibilities:

- Anthony died where he was left by RSM Goddard, either from his wounds or because he was murdered.
- Anthony was evacuated by the German stretcher bearers and either died in a field hospital (the one at Merville being the most likely) for whatever reason or very possibly ended up in a PoW camp with memory loss due to his experiences or new wounds (the St Venant area was still within range of British artillery when the PoWs were being rounded up by the Germans).

Anything else contains too many 'ifs' for my liking.

John

**ivor43** · 31-07-2012, 21:36

John.
Sadly at the moment IF’s are all we have, not very satisfying, The only Eye Witnesses we have at the moment are the Major. And RSM Goddard with regard to Anthony’s wounds, possibly. And the couple who witnessed his murder, if that was Anthony. And he could have been any where along the canal.
He could have been picked up by the German’s which could put him in the Calonne Aid Post, which I would favour, or maybe somewhere else ????
Goddard might of underestimated his wounds so he might have died where he was. He might have died at the aid post.
If his wounds were superficial, with a shot of Morphine he could have been reasonably mobile. ETC,ETC.
Believe me this is an investigative nightmare. But I did not expect anything else. This Is a major challenge, but I am not about to give up any time soon.
I may be throwing seemingly impossible scenario’s, they are all based on aspects of what we know, with interpretation. You found a book, Jim found a café. I am waiting for info as to why we have a Rue De Col Harrison. I am trying to test one aspect of the Majors Evidence. We can not accept the RSM and ignore the Major.
What we need is a large flash of inspired genius or a bit of Divine Guidance. But I suspect that it will be down to good old fashioned spade work.
Right.
TeeCee. A question if I may, and I hope you won’t think me cheeky. But I am trying to get an idea of what Anthony may have been capable of.
So if you are willing could you give us an idea of what Anthony was like, for example was he the sort of person who could overcome minor leg wounds and carry on.

Ivor.

teecee1941 · 31-07-2012, 22:42

Originally Posted by vori101

John.
Sadly at the moment IF’s are all we have, not very satisfying, The only Eye Witnesses we have at the moment are the Major. And RSM Goddard with regard to Anthony’s wounds, possibly. And the couple who witnessed his murder, if that was Anthony. And he could have been any where along the canal.
He could have been picked up by the German’s which could put him in the Calonne Aid Post, which I would favour, or maybe somewhere else ????
Goddard might of underestimated his wounds so he might have died where he was. He might have died at the aid post.
If his wounds were superficial, with a shot of Morphine he could have been reasonably mobile. ETC,ETC.
Believe me this is an investigative nightmare. But I did not expect anything else. This Is a major challenge, but I am not about to give up any time soon.
I may be throwing seemingly impossible scenario’s, they are all based on aspects of what we know, with interpretation. You found a book, Jim found a café. I am waiting for info as to why we have a Rue De Col Harrison. I am trying to test one aspect of the Majors Evidence. We can not accept the RSM and ignore the Major.
What we need is a large flash of inspired genius or a bit of Divine Guidance. But I suspect that it will be down to good old fashioned spade work.
Right.
TeeCee. A question if I may, and I hope you won’t think me cheeky. But I am trying to get an idea of what Anthony may have been capable of.
So if you are willing could you give us an idea of what Anthony was like, for example was he the sort of person who could overcome minor leg wounds and carry on.

Ivor,

I certainly don't think you are cheeky and I don't mind answering any questions. Sadly, Anthony died 18 months before I was born but I've always 'known him'. I was always aware that he had died in the war from the time I became aware of what was going on around me. In 1945, when I was four, I can remember my parents discussing the fact that he had been wounded and the ground was too rough to manhandle him to hospital. As I grew up it became more and more apparent that he was never going to be found it was obvious that his siblings had been extremely fond of him.

I do know that he was quite a sensitive, reserved person not given to getting into drunken fights or arguments. My mother always said that he had been a lovely man, kind, reliable and unselfish. From what I know of him, I am sure that he would have suffered his wounds in a soldierly way because my father once described him as always 'being happy with his lot, he didn't want any fuss'

I realise that it is difficult to descibe a relative without being too generous but this is the way his family spoke of him.

Ivor.

**ivor43** · 01-08-2012, 00:36

TeeCee.
Thank you. That was good of you. I appreciate it.
Sounds like a good guy. And you know, Tony, that people like Anthony who are ‘’ happy with their lot’’ often do remarkable things.
I have met many Anthony’s in my 68 yrs and I know I would prefer to have a bunch of them around in a tight spot. Generally keep a cool head.
So I am quite happy with the idea that he would do whatever he could to get out of there and get back to his unit, rather than sit around waiting to be captured, if he could.
Thanks again.

Ivor.

**Verrieres** · 01-08-2012, 19:09

As promised I have made some enquiries with the CWGC in relation to Unknowns buried at St Venant ,Merville and more recently Haverskerque.The first reply dealing with St Venant and Merville was received today and is set out below:-

I would explain that attempts were made during both world wars to locate and register graves, but in battlefield areas many soldiers were never buried, and the graves of those who were buried were sometimes destroyed in subsequent fighting, or temporary grave markers were lost or became illegible. In areas which were lost to the enemy or were very close to the front line, graves registration was often delayed for months, or even years. The Commission does not have information on the circumstances of death and initial disposal of remains for servicemen and women with no known grave.<O:P></O:P>
Having checked our archival documents I can confirm that no unknown casualty that served with the Durham Light Infantry is buried in St. Venant Communal cemetery or Merville Cemetery.<O:P></O:P>
I hope you find this information useful.<O:P></O:P>
Yours sincerely<O:P></O:P>

<O:P></O:P>

Argy Francis (Mrs)<O:P></O:P>

Enquiries Administrator<O:P></O:P>

Hopefully the reply dealing with Haverskerque will be more encouraging.

Best

Jim