saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

**ivor43** · 24-07-2012, 13:49

John,
My friend I am sorry if have confused you. My last message was mainly aimed at ap1 who thought that my ref to Custers last stand may have been taken as offensive I was only trying to clarify my thinking for him.
I made ref to 2 battles, the 7^th Cavalry at Little Big Horn and the British troops at, and I should have been more specific, Isandlwana. These defeats were caused by the senior officers having a misplaced belief in their superiority and totally underestimating their enemy.
My ref to Col Harrison was to ensure that in no way was I suggesting that he made a similar mistake.
Now a couple of posts ago I said I was giving up my position at the east, for now. And that for discussion purposes I was using the words of Major Townsend. I assume you are aware of the duties of ‘’ a Devils Advocate’’ within the Catholic Church.
I am now arguing purely on the words of the Major. As if he was at the St Venant Bridge.
I thought that we were broadly in agreement that what has been written was possibly suspect. Therefore when the Major states he saw Col Harrison crossing fields to the north, towards Haverskirque and the Red Dragon places him quite firmly south of the bridge till virtually the last possible minute I have a great deal of difficulty reconciling the two accounts.
The Major states that he was wounded in the face while crossing the bridge and a Welsh soldier put a dressing on it. Where? If this was at the British Aid post would he not have mentioned it and would he not have had to wait while more serious wounds were treated. My impression is that this was done quickly ‘on the spot’
The Red Dragon account says that several tanks crossed the bridge. The Major specifically states that a tank went onto the bridge, took out the M/G post and then went North and was taken out by an 18lb’er.Now I am quite convinced that he would know it was an 18lb’er from the sound of the discharge. The same as, even, i know the difference between the sounds of an LMG and a HMG.
Can we equate these two accounts? There does not seem to be any obvious connection. Unless we consider the possibility of a second crossing to the east.
John when entering into a debate, arguments both for and against the topic are given and those listening form opinions. in this debate you are pro the Red Dragon, regimental account. I am trying to rebut your arguments by using the words of the Major, I have never said that the Major is right, I dont know that, but neither do I know that the Red Dragon is right. This is what we have to establish, we can not just dismiss the Major because it is inconvenient.
And finally john, I do love a good conspiracy theory but I am sorry this is not one. I do however know something about the concept of truth and I can assure you it is not always exactly what it seems. it depends to a great extent where you are viewing it from.

ivor

**Verrieres** · 24-07-2012, 16:23

Anthony Corkhill

Excuse the underlining of the title but I am going to pop in and try and steer you back towards Anthony whenever it looks likely that this is going off on a tangent.Although everything stated is relevant to the action are we any closer to finding Anthony?..No.....Farm Boulet was the only link to Soldier 6...If Farm Boulet is discounted and we are satisfied that there were no other `Boulet` residencies lets move on.
With no other obvious links regarding any of the other atrocities in the area do we now concentrate on the possibility that Anthony died possibly two days later in hospital be that a field Hospital or a General Hospital?
If we do take this direction,I am assuming,that as an unknown or not his death will have been recorded and documented ? Dental records ? I would assume the dental records would have been recorded on a body either in a Hospital or if we choose to go there,on those `inconnu` exhumed in 1941-42 ie pathologist reports?
When these bodies were exhumed/buried France was still occupied so there would have been no chance to compare any medical records.I have case notes from a `Searcher Party` file (location of missing soldiers graves) from 1943 for the area of Sicily,one body discovered in an unmarked grave was believed to be a 9th DLI soldier called Evans (This was the last area he had been seen alive) A three page report detailing clothing,position ,personal effects and more importantly his dental records were listed.Subsequent enquiries were made and a reply from The Infantry Records in York disproved that this was Evans because their records showed that teeth present on the body were recorded as already extracted on his enlistment .Evans remains `unknown`..but at least it goes to show that somewhere these dental records were recorded. Army records are available,I have my uncles,but there are no medical records amongst them presumably these would have been kept for pension applications?
I really am clutching at reality here I`m so much out of my comfort zone.
The autopsy reports from the bodies around St Venant exist (Fact Thats how Tom Rodgers was found) M.Faivre is believed to hold them but he is tied up with another project. The locations of the unknowns are also ,presumably , known by the CWGC have we established how many unknowns there are in the area I believe there are up to forty in St Venant alone. This may seem a labourious effort but some of those unknowns will be discounted because of rank,Tattoos,Regimental insignia (Hair colour ,height if the reports can be accessed!) Would this be an avenue Tony could explore or have I missed something glaringly obvious.(Which to be honest I probably have!!)

Best
Jim

**Baconwallah** · 24-07-2012, 20:57

Jim. you are quite right.

The present situation is summarised in my post #175 below.

What we need: info on field graves on the bank of the Lys canal E of the bridge and info on deaths in German Aid Posts or Clearing Stations from 27th to 29th May.

I have set the German War Graves people to work on the latter. For the former we depend on local information which is not in the Mairie but seemingly only in the possession of M Faivre. And that will be a problem, as he has stated to my friend that he has done all he can and can do no more.

Unless the CWGC can produce a list of field graves, or can be persuaded to explain why they decided on the death date of 29th May, we have nothing to go on. Remember that comparing dental records is all very fine, but you need something to compare them to.

John

**Verrieres** · 24-07-2012, 22:50

Hello John,
The dental records suggestion would have been a direct comparrison between those on the autopsy reports and (if they still survive) the servicemans records but I am aware on the likelyhood of gaining access to them.
I have in the past contacted the CWGC on several occasions the last in relation to an unknown DLI Sgt and although they could tell me nothing to help with his identification they did supply the map co-ordinates of the original field grave,So they do hold this in their records.
As a start I have enquired if there are amongst the unknowns in St Venant and Merville (Four known DLI lie here believed died of wounds)any soldiers whose personal identities are unknown but who are known to be from the DLI (Signified by the DLI cap badge on an `Unknown`Headstone.
The hospital route via the German war graves is promising but would their records (or at least copies of them) not now be in the Hands of the CWGC?
I am aware of that mix up at the German field Hospital (Schoolhouse in Calonne) which resulted in the removal of ID Tags from Five British soldiers resulting in them being buried as `unknowns` I am summising that they had the tags but it was not known which body they had originated?
Whilst on the subject of Tags I am aware that Tony believes Anthony may have left his at home...is this not a disiplinary offence? I am not an expert on this but I find it hard to believe these would not have been replaced by May 1940 remember 2 DLI were first of the DLI battalions in France in 1939? Just thinking out aloud but ...no I`ll save it

Best

Jim

**Baconwallah** · 24-07-2012, 23:21

Jim,

The dental records of wor Tony will be the least of our problems. Getting the exhumation reports from M Faivre will be much more difficult and probably impossible as my friend tells me he refuses to co-operate any further.

I'm not sure the CWGC would have field grave information for the area. The French cleared the field graves in 1942 which meant that in 1945 the CWGC could take over a nicely prepared plot in the communal cemetery. They may have received the paperwork to go with it, but on the other hand they may not. Only the CWGC can answer this.

In view of the strange confirmation of date of death during the war I think that the CWGC and the service record may hold the key to all this. How did the Army know that he was dead, when there was a war on? German report through Switzerland? If so, what did it say?

John

**Verrieres** · 25-07-2012, 00:56

Originally Posted by Baconwallah

Jim,

The dental records of wor Tony will be the least of our problems. Getting the exhumation reports from M Faivre will be much more difficult and probably impossible as my friend tells me he refuses to co-operate any further.

I'm not sure the CWGC would have field grave information for the area. The French cleared the field graves in 1942 which meant that in 1945 the CWGC could take over a nicely prepared plot in the communal cemetery. They may have received the paperwork to go with it, but on the other hand they may not. Only the CWGC can answer this.

In view of the strange confirmation of date of death during the war I think that the CWGC and the service record may hold the key to all this. How did the Army know that he was dead, when there was a war on? German report through Switzerland? If so, what did it say?

John

Hello John,
How strange that M Faivre does not want to help I know he is busy at present but its not as if he has been pestered Tony only made one approach to him and he request a photograph and as much detail as possible...then nothing.Very strange.
In relation to the Field graves information as mentioned my last enquiry was in relation to a DLI Sgt also 2nd Battalion at rest in Leopoldsburg the reply from the CWGC was;-

Thank you for your e mail of 23 October. Please accept our apologies for the delay in reply: due to the high volume of enquiries received by our offices we currently have a backlog we are working to clear.
With regard to your query as to the ‘Unknown Serjeant of the Durham Light Infantry’ who is buried in Leopoldsburg War Cemetery in Belgium.
I have examined our Second World War records and can simply confirm that are limited records consistent throughout in recording these details. Our records are, as you may be aware, based on information provided to us after the war by the Service Authorities at the time. They would have provided us the above detail, based on the limited information that they had available to them at the time when the casualty’s remains were recovered from their original burial place in Gastuche Temporary Burial Ground at map reference:
M.R. 822424, Sheet 56
1/50,000, GSGS 4040
The map reference given above refers to the Second World War maps held at the Imperial War Museum. However, the maps are in the process of being digitised, and this is expected to take some considerable time. Should you require further information on this, you may wish to contact the following address:
Imperial War Museum
Department of Printed Books
Lambeth Road
Lambeth
London
SE1 6HZ
Tel: 020 7416 5342
Fax: 020 7416 5374
E-mail: books@iwm.org.uk
In closing, I am sorry that we have no further information other than the above, but I hope this is of some interest.

Yours sincerely,

Julie Somay (Mrs)
Enquiries Section
Commonwealth War Graves Commission
Head Office
2 Marlow Road
Maidenhead
Berkshire
SL6 7DX

Incidentally my enquiry related to the headstone being marked as a DLI SGT when no DLI SGTS were outstanding/missing only one L/Sgt matched but there was a 12 day discrepency in the dates of death and where this L/Sgt was last seen alive.
The report from Switzerland has one major flaw if it were the Swiss that notified the British why did the Red Cross write to RSM Goddard on behalf of the Corkhill family?
There are missing men files for each campaign Anthony Corkhill at no stage is reported missing its certain in black and white..DEAD...not KiA ..not Died of Wounds..not Died in Captivity...emphatically DEAD! Like you said how did they know and what is the Q80 reference on the accquital roll? Oh yes and apparently he isnt listed as drawing pay on the 15th May 1940 when only 12 members of HQ Company are listed?? More questions than answers I`m afraid.
Best
Jim

**Baconwallah** · 25-07-2012, 01:17

Jim, my French friend told me that he had the distinct impression that M Faivre did not appreciate Tony asking a second historian for help. He explained at length that he had done his best but had not found anything, and if he couldn't find Tony's uncle, nobody could. As for copying the exhumation data and /or path report for us, no dice. You and I would decide to work together for a better prospect of results, but M Faivre obviously decided otherwise. The Mairie has nothing of interest, they told my friend, and referred him to M Faivre.

So I once again suggest pestering the CWGC to reveal their source of onformation on the death of Tony's uncle, and also coughing up 30 quid for a copy of his service record. At the very least we'll then know more than we do now.

John

teecee1941 · 25-07-2012, 21:55

Originally Posted by Baconwallah

Jim, my French friend told me that he had the distinct impression that M Faivre did not appreciate Tony asking a second historian for help. He explained at length that he had done his best but had not found anything, and if he couldn't find Tony's uncle, nobody could. As for copying the exhumation data and /or path report for us, no dice. You and I would decide to work together for a better prospect of results, but M Faivre obviously decided otherwise. The Mairie has nothing of interest, they told my friend, and referred him to M Faivre.

So I once again suggest pestering the CWGC to reveal their source of onformation on the death of Tony's uncle, and also coughing up 30 quid for a copy of his service record. At the very least we'll then know more than we do now.

John

John,

Today I rang the DLI Museum and the CWGC in London to ask about the 27th or 29th date of death mystery. They were both as helpful as they could be but it seemed that a bit of guesswork was involved. The CWGC eventually said I would be better contacting the Army Service Records in Glasgow. I have tried and tried to contact them but either the page is unable to be found or it won't take any details. A week or two ago you sent me details of how to make contact and the form to use. I've searched for the last hour but can't find it. Could you send it again, please?

Thanks,

Tony

**Baconwallah** · 25-07-2012, 22:36

Tony, the two forms you'll need are on the way. Check your email and you'll find them.

John

**ivor43** · 26-07-2012, 01:08

Jim.
Believe me I have not forgotten what we are doing. To a degree we are at an impasse. as I said I have given up, for now, my stand to the east.

You guys covered the western aspect of this action quite thoroughly but did you find any mention of an aid post. Might it have been as far away as Robecq? At the moment we don’t know. But as they used a school in Calonne is there not a possibility that they would have used a similar building elsewhere.

But of course, and any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Is there a possibility that the Aid post in Calonne was for the whole area, with a number of Field Ambulances operating in various parts of the action. Treating minor wounds on site and conveying the more serious casualties to Calonne before sending them to the rear?
There are good roads between Calonne, Robecq, St Venant and St Floris, and the distances are not great.

I am surprised that dental records were kept in 1940. but surely they would only be for those persons who had had dental work done, if Anthony, at 21,had a good set of teeth would there be any record. Or was everyone that enlisted recorded.

Ivor