saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

**Baconwallah** · 20-07-2012, 02:09

The double lines on your map, Ivor, are Allied positions. And do not forget that the map summarises the advance of only one unit (the others have not been drawn) over a period of some five days. Very little to go on.

Bridges: there were a narrow old bridge from St Venant across the Lys canal, part of the old Route Nationale, and a big wooden one just to the left of it built in early 1949 by French engineers. The latter may have afforded more direct access to the Haverskerque road, after all it was 160 yards long and probably cut off some corners, but the old Route Nationale actually turned E once across the Lys and then executed an almost 90 degree turn to the left to connect to the Haverskerque road. I can understand that, having crossed the bridge, the Colonel would not have taken the road itself but would have attempted to take a short cut across the field. Be that as it may, the big bridge should have been blown but was not.

Goddard: how do you know he was captured at the bridge? It is not documented anywhere.

Under fire from both sides: to the East there were the tanks along the tow path, no doubt accompanied by infantry. To the the West, as you already remarked, the Lys bends to the North until it returns to its westerly course past Haverskerque. A second German column had reached the Lys there and could therefore fire on the bridges along the tow path from the NW. See the map.

Hitler's stop order was dated 24th May. It was rescinded with effect from 27th May.

Have I forgotten anything?

And so to bed.

John

St Venant 27th May 1940.jpg

**ivor43** · 21-07-2012, 01:28

Howdy Folks.

Right I am going to surrender the east. For now. But I retain the right to return to it at any time if or when I get answers to three questions.
1) If Col Harrison was heading for Haveskirque why has he seemingly become a hero in a village several miles to the east.

2) Why did the Major state that a Lt and 60 men ( I think it was) were heading for the Forest. How would he know they were heading for the forest which is to the north of Haveskirque. If going from St Venant.

3) Where did the assault force that attacked Merville cross the Lys before it turned east.

We now have to find an aid post either S or W of St Venant As the Germans said there was a field ambulance operating in the area I doubt it was very far from it’s base.

ivor

**Baconwallah** · 21-07-2012, 15:09

Here we go, Ivor:

1 - The Rue du Col Harrison is within the Commune de Haverskerque, not in another village. The distance from Haverskerque village centre is less than a mile, not several miles.

2 - Question not understood.

2 - 6th Bde HQ having relocated to le Touquet and its bns posted from St Venant to Bas-Hamel, Calonne was defended only by a coy of French pioneers and ten British stragglers and the fight lasted less than an hour. The only defence of Merville consisted of 6th KORR supported by an MG section and a few field guns. The Germans simply took the main road through Calonne until they were held at the Merville bridge by 6 KORR.

John

**ivor43** · 23-07-2012, 07:17

Hi all.
No I haven’t gone AWOL, we have just been very busy. have eaten out with friends 4 times in the last 5 days.
John. I did not think that you could answer my questions, you seem to be arguing from what is already written eg. The Red Dragon. The answers are not there, neither are they in 2DLI records.
We have to go outside these records, which we know are suspect
My apparent obsession with ‘’La Rue Du Colonel Harrison’’ is really quite simple.
In order for this to happen a motion would have to be put before the local Council. Stating Why it was felt that in view of the actions of the Col this was an appropriate memorial. This would probably be debated and then entered in the minutes of the meeting. If this could be found it would be an independent and authoritive piece of evidence.
The location of the death of Col Harrison is possibly open to question, having read of his Custeresque death in a heroic last stand at the bridge, I find it somewhat bemusing. You, some pages ago, expressed an opinion of the colonel in less than flattering terms. When it appeared from Major Townsend’s dairy that he was seen heading north from the bridge.
So where was he?
The Red Dragon account is similar to stuff I have read before, where senior officer who have through incompetence, poor decisions etc lost their forces they have been written up as having a heroic death, defending some strategic point. The writers never expect their accounts to be challenged and in most cases they are not.
But in this case everything is open to challenge.
We Will succeed.

ivor

**Baconwallah** · 23-07-2012, 10:17

Morning Ivor,

You refer to my description of Col Harrison as 'less than flattering' which I think misinterprets my opinion. He did the best he could under impossible circumstances, and was not permitted to withdraw until it was much too late and most of his battalion had been wiped out. It's hard to see what else he could have done.

As for the requested minutes of the deliberations of the council of Haverskerque: feel free to ask for them at contact-mairie-haverskerque@wanadoo.fr.

My French friend tells me that so far he has drawn only blanks.

John

**ap1** · 23-07-2012, 10:49

Originally Posted by vori101

The Red Dragon account is similar to stuff I have read before, where senior officer who have through incompetence, poor decisions etc lost their forces they have been written up as having a heroic death, defending some strategic point. The writers never expect their accounts to be challenged and in most cases they are not.
But in this case everything is open to challenge.
We Will succeed.

ivor

Please exercise a degree of restraint in your comments Ivor. His family would not feel his death was "Custeresque".

Thanks

teecee1941 · 23-07-2012, 22:49

Hi John,

Sorry I'm a bit late with this reply. At the moment I have not applied for Anthony's service record. I have written to the CWGC and will wait until I have a reply. I expect this will take a week or two.

Tony

**Baconwallah** · 23-07-2012, 22:52

Thanks for the info, Tony. The CWGC reply may need interpretation (or additional questions) so please keep me posted.

John

**ivor43** · 24-07-2012, 01:20

Ap1.
I am somewhat bemused by your response to my post. i do not understand how a reference to George Armstrong Custer could be offensive.
But then again I suppose it depends on whose account you read and chose to believe. History of the Native American people has been somewhat of a passion of mine for a number of years and I have a fairly extensive collection of works on these people.
You can not study them without coming across the 3 major battles. Sand Creek (Soldier Blue) Wounded Knee where a Gatling Gun was used against unarmed Natives.
And of course The Little Big Horn.
Now. Colonel George Armstrong Custer. Last in his year at West Point. Served with some distinction In The Civil War (1861-66) made a very advantageous Political Marriage which did not make him popular with his fellow officers, as his wife had the ear of many senior officers.
I think, from what I have read, that he was a good officer, maybe not brilliant, liked by those under his command. who had had success in previous campaigns against the Natives.
I believe this success led to his ultimate defeat. He totally misunderstood his enemy, this time, a very large gathering of Sioux. and he made a serious tactical error, he split his command.
After the defeat he was blamed entirely by his detractors until his wife used her political contacts to create the story of the Heroic Last Stand. I believe Truth and facts became another casualty of this war.
I am,at the moment, reading Prof Saul David’s Book. ZULU. The Heroism and Tragedy of the Zulu War of 1879.

Believe me his comments regarding the abilities etc of the Senior Officers is much more scathing than anything I could have written. But the official records of this action also seem to leave Truth and Fact as a casualty.
Now for Colonel Harrison. I DO NOT believe he underestimated his enemy, in fact I am convinced that he was fully aware that he was out gunned, short of men, and what he had were tired. And his only intention was to get his men out of a position that was rapidly becoming untenable.
I believe the only Tac error here was from the top. The decision to send this unit into a breach to face a much the much superior 3 Panzer.
But let me quote from my first paragraph ‘’But then again I suppose it depends on whose account you read and chose to believe ‘’
If you wish to believe The Red Dragon Account so be it. But in reading the account from the Diary of Major Townsend then that appears to indicate something different. As i said, I was using the Diary as a basis for discussion purposes. And i will do so until I have evidence it is wrong.
In using Custeresque I was referring to the manner in which it was written up long after the fact. And seemingly ignoring the possibility of an alternative, as suggested by the Diary of Major Townsend, As were the accounts of Mrs Custer. Not to his actual death.
Be assured I have no intention of Besmirching the memory of Colonel Harrison He has my Full Respect. But in what we are doing we have to re-examine everything in order to establish the truth and location of the remains of Pte Corkhill. And I would hope that the Harrison family will understand this.

ivor

**Baconwallah** · 24-07-2012, 01:55

Ivor, you have now lost me completely. Has anyone ever suggested that Col Harrison underestimated the enemy? All reports indicate that he knew exactly what he was up against.

As for 1 RWF being where it was, that was simply because there was nothing else. The task of 6 Bde was to delay the enemy long enough to make the evacuation of the BEF possible. They did that, they did that well, and paid the inevitable price. That a stand behind the Lys canal would have been better than one in front of it, that is another matter, and probably the result of faulty information at Bde HQ. It was certainly not Col Harrison's choice.

I also still fail to understand why Capt Townsend's diary would indicate a stand anywhere but at the St Venant bridge, and why it is in your opinion the only reliable account while the Red Dragon account, the 1954 YDG account and the written reports of the officers captured at St Venant are all part of a grand conspiracy to hide "the truth", whatever that may be.

John