saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

**ivor43** · 19-07-2012, 15:42

john.
i thought the Mil Hist site was odd, but at the moment we have to explore all options regardless.
With regard to the picture i thought the lack of quays was odd.
But i wonder, perhaps we are misjudging him.the traffic on the canal was probably a lot smaller than the barges of today, maybe more like the working boats that we had on ours,somewhat wider than the our modern Narrow Boats. and what we see today is a post war widening and lengthening of the lock to accommodate the modern barges.Were the quays in 1940 further west, behind the artist?
shortly i am going to post the first of 2 'lateral thinking' efforts they may be useful.

ivor

**Baconwallah** · 19-07-2012, 15:47

Originally Posted by vori101

Were the quays in 1940 further west, behind the artist?

ivor

They weren't, Ivor. It just shows you how selective memory can be. The lock itself was of no importance, but the canal was, and that is what the artist remembered.

John

**ivor43** · 19-07-2012, 16:23

john
my ext post will explain this

Source: Motorized Reconnaissance Detachment in Combat in Flanders. By Wim Brandt (SS AA VT CO). Militar Wochenblatt.

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**ivor43** · 19-07-2012, 16:28

Bon Jour mon amis.
For the purpose of these next two post I am going to take the account of Major Townsend as the basis and see where it leads us.

Let us back off from St Venant and see the bigger picture.
From the above map we see a large German force, which john identified in a previous post. To the west of Robecq, Haveskirque and the forest. But what is to the south and east ? and what do the curved parallel line over the Lys east of St Venant signify,
 We know, with certainty, that the German’s had an aid post at a School in Calonne. We also know that 2 British soldiers died here, were originally buried in the field at the rear.2 years later were reburied in the cemetery
****This proves without doubt that the German’s were picking up and treating British wounded. It seems reasonable to assume that there could have been other’s that recovered and became P.O.W’S. so why was’nt Anthony picked up by the stretcher bearers when RSM Goddard told them where he was. Or Was He.
The situation is not helped by the fact that Anthony did not have his ‘Dog Tags’.
There now seems to me 2 options :-
Option 1 we already know.
Option 2 RSM Goddard. Who was seen directing traffic across a bridge by Major Townsend, thought his wounds were not serious. What if he was wrong about the neck wound. And I am sorry john but at this stage there has to be some what if’s.
Without seeing an autopsy report as to the nature of these wounds, were the wounds Flesh wounds, I am not too concerned about the leg wounds, but the neck wound is more worrying. I had some training with the police regarding bullet wounds and obviously first aid and I am also aware of what happens to its path if a bullet hits bone. Now, john, here you have a much greater knowledge and experience. Could the neck wound have been causing internal bleeding, If so then at some point Anthony would have become unconscious. With no ‘Dog Tags ‘ and unable to speak he would be an unknown. If the German’s were unable to save him then he becomes one of our unknowns ****in Calonne Sur la Lys Cemetery.
This assumes that the action occurred to the east of St Floris.
Let us now pose the same questions from the St Venant position.
I am going to assume that the German units at this position were from a different part of 3Panzer, than those to the east.
If so, would these units have their own aid post. It would, to me, seem likely as they are quite some distance from Calonne. John you have looked at this part of the action in some detail, have you come across any reference to one. I think we can disregard the British one.
The argument from **** to **** is the same. But unless we can find an aid post in this western area then we have no idea if he could be in this area

ivor

**Baconwallah** · 19-07-2012, 16:38

Good points, Ivor.

The neck wound, if the bullet or shell fragment had hit the jugular vein or the carotid artery, would very likely have been lethal in a matter of minutes. Bleeding from those wounds is profuse.

So let's sum up.

If Anthony died on the canal bank, from his wounds or because he was murdered, we should look for him among the field graves in the area.

If Anthony was taken to a 3 Pz Div Aid Post, and died there for whatever reason, we should look for him somewhat more to the south, in the Aire Canal area where one would presume the 3 Pz Div / 3 Inf Regt Aid Post to have been. It's certainly possible. His lack of identification would have thrown a spanner in the works of the German Aid Post administration.

The Volksbund (the German War Graves Commission) are already checking their archives at my request. We'll see what comes up. I shall also ask my friend in the Bundeswehr Museum again. He might be able to inform us of 3 Pz Aid Posts.

Job for the weekend.

John

teecee1941 · 19-07-2012, 23:38

John/Ivor,
Thank you both once again for your latest posts which, as always, I have read with great interest. Regarding Anthony's plight lying wounded on the canal bank, I read once again RSM Goddards two reports. There is a difference between the one he wrote to the family and the one to the Red Cross but the difference is miniscule. I would think that the one he wrote to the Red Cross contained basic facts only but perhaps as he was writing the second one, (to my grandfather) he was conscious that it was going to be read by a family and this shows in the statement that he became 'very attached to Anthony, he was a first class lad'.

To the Red Cross he wrote that he was wounded in the neck and legs and that the Germans 'ordered us to make him comfortable on the canal bank, near the village and stated that he would very soon be picked up by their field ambulance'. 'At the time Pte Corkhill was conscious and could speak and the situation in that area was quiet'. He made no mention of the severity of Anthony's wounds but it is apparent that they were severe enough to prevent him from walking.

In the letter to my grandfather he states that he found that Anthony had a flesh wound to the neck and wounds to both legs. He was conscious and spoke to me quite rationally. We certainly formed the opinion that his wounds were not fatal.

Whatever happened next, we'll probably never know but at some time after that he was declared dead. The CWGC say that he died on the 29th May. The DLI say the same and he was discharged on that day. I have emailed the CWGC to ask how they arrived at that date. Perhaps I should also ask WHEN they arrived at that date. Did the DLI inform the CWGC or vice versa. It is likely that Anthony was seen to be killed and the information was passed on to someone in authority soon afterwards. Even allowing for Anthony's lack of dog tags, he would have been known well enough for a comrade to report his death after visual identification

My thinking at the moment, until any fresh evidence appears, is that the picture, although lacking in artistic merit and slightly inaccurately scaled, is a valuable piece of information. My guess is that it all took place around the bridge and Anthony was perhaps wounded in the dash to get to the safer side. If he was wounded when actually crossing the bridge then his injuries would have prevented him from getting very far. When RSM Goddard said he was on the canal bank 'near the village', how near to the village was he or how far from the bridge was the village?

Tony

**Baconwallah** · 20-07-2012, 00:16

Tony, re your last point: the bridge was just north of the village. See Google maps.

I doubt that Anthony ever made it that far. The RWF passed the retreat order to the DLI but the latter found it impossible to pull back due to the volume of fire and the presence of German tanks outside HQ (or what was left of it). Somewhere between the Taverne house and the cemetery would be the most likely spot in my opinion.

As for the date as reported by DLI and CWGC: have you requested your uncle's service record? That might give some useful information on how the date of 29th May was obtained. If you haven't, here's how:

All service papers for soldiers who served after 1920 are held at the Army Personnel Centre, Historic Disclosures, Mailpoint 400, Kentigern House, 65 Brown Street, Glasgow G2 8EX. A fee is charged (£30) for each search, even if no material is discovered. A special form has to be completed prior to the search. It is essential that you quote the Regiment and personal number of the soldier concerned. There is a long backlog of enquiries at present so it may take some weeks to receive a reply. To download an application (SAR) form - visit www.veterans-uk.info and click on 'Service Records'. I can also email the forms to you.

I have passed the latest theory, about the German Aid Post, to my contacts in the Volksbund and the Bundeswehr Museum. It may help them to locate records pertinent to the case.

John

teecee1941 · 20-07-2012, 01:07

John,

Just to refresh my memory, the Taverne house is at the junction of Rue des Amusoires and the towpath, next door to the cemetery?

thanks,

Tony

**Baconwallah** · 20-07-2012, 01:14

Correct, Tony.

John

**ivor43** · 20-07-2012, 01:22

Ok. Part 2.
Bridges.

Right. again based on the extracts from Major Townsend.

First, question- are there 2 bridges ?
What do we know of the bridge at St Venant.
Of wooden construction spanning both the canal and the old river bed. which is the main Haveskirque Rd
So why would the Major record Col Harrison as’ crossing a field in the direction of Haveskirque’ when he could just go up the road ?
The report of the position coming under fire from both sides.
After leaving the Locks the canal bends toward the north for awhile then runs straight. So if the Germans set up a M/G post on the bank they could easily bring the locks under fire and if armor was approaching from the cemetery direction then yes they would be under fire from both directions. ?? sides??

A report of a tank heading north towards the Headroad to Haveskirque.
If a tank crossed the St Venant bridge it would be on the Haveskirque Rd.
If the St Venant Bridge was blown and RWF were having to swim the river.
then how did the tank cross it?

Now for the ‘Second Bridge’

What do we know about it ?
Well…errr. .hmmmm ok. Errrr Nothing.
Where was it ?
You mean exactly ..well hmmm dont know. But it did exist. The Major was at this bridge. He saw the Col crossing the field towards Haveskrque.
He himself crossed this bridge being wounded in the process. He witnessed RSM Goddard directing traffic across this bridge.
The troops at this bridge came under fire from both sides.
There are German troops approaching from south and east. There is a Bren unit on the north bank. presumably putting down covering fire for the British troops trying to get over the bridge. so they are under fire from both sides.
This bridge was not blown because the engineers had gone.
A tank crossed this bridge taking out the Bren post then proceeding towards the north where it was taken out.
RSM Goddard with others were captured at this bridge. And probably marched off to captivity along the canal bank where he sees Anthony.
All this took place on 27^th.There is nothing then until 29^th when the wounded soldier is shot. Presumably whilst bodies are being cleared from the area.
A stop order is issued by German High Command, for how long ? This would give the German units time to re group etc ready for the attack on Merville.
There is evidence that ‘Armored Columns crossed this bridge then turned east to attack Merville’ those defenders that could fell back to the forest. a German account states that it was very difficult to dislodge the troops from the forest and the reason the British fell back was from fear of being encircled presumably by this force and the force to the west.

Now, do we have any idea where this bridge is. I now think there is a possible answer.
If you look at the map I posted earlier you will see a detailed disposition of troops to the west.
There are other parallel lines to the south going north, more lines skirting Bethune and a set of lines Curving roughly S.E/N. crossing the Lys. Now this is a German Map showing German Troop Positions, drawn up by an S.S.Officer Could this be where I have placed the bridge and tank tracks.
Or am I misreading this and the parallel lines are actually the positions of BEF/French units. Although the German troops seem much further north than I would have expected.But why would it show a defensive line on both sides of the canal.

Ivor