saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

**Baconwallah** · 11-07-2012, 12:45

Ivor, I hope to receive the full War Crimes report this week, and that may contain some hints on where to look.

You are right in saying that both Bn HQs were near the bridge at St Venant. 1 RWF had its Bn HQ in the cemetery and was responsible for the front E of St Venant, 2 DLI had its Bn HQ in a farm with a large barn, less than 50 yards away from 1 RWF HQ, and this is probably the farm and barn shown in my Google Street View photographs. 2 DLI was responsible for the line S and W of St Venant, with the exception of Robecq where B Coy 1 RWF was holding out.

Getting back to basics, these are the documented facts we must try to connect and reconcile:

- RSM Goddard saw Pte Corkhill, wounded in both legs and neck, and made him comfortable on the canal bank. Location unknown. [letter of RSM Goddard to family]
- M Victor Boulet saw a man wounded in both legs being murdered by an SS officer, opposite his farm on the Rue du Bas-Hamel. [war crimes testimony]
- an unidentified body was recovered from the pasture opposite the Ferme Boulet at Bas-Hamel [French list of bodies recovered from the Rue du Bas-Hamel - Rue d'Aire area]
- both Bn HQs were located to the E of St Venant, some 500 yards from the road bridge [RWF WD, http://www.webmatters.net/txtpat/index.php?id=272, http://arham62.monsite-orange.fr/page1/index.html]

John

**ivor43** · 11-07-2012, 23:57

Hi again
(i've done this through mobile phone hotspot)

A number of things have been seriously bothering me about this action at the bridge. all 4 Co’s of both RWF and 2DLI and the Berkshires are accounted for, we know where they were. So what were these units at the bridge.
There was a bit of info that had been floating about, in the background, amongst the rest which never really got my attention. till now.
On one of the 3 maps that jungle submitted via bob it shows a Brigade HQ at Calonne near the junction of the Robecq Rd.
Where did it go? or is this what was at the bridge ?
It would make a certain amount of sense. They could withdraw across the bridge either towards Haveskirque or the forest where a no of troops were gathering.
This might account for the presence of 2 colonels and some other top brass. The RWF diary mentions 2 i/c. i/o. Padre and RSM. As being there.
I am assuming that a Brigade HQ Co would be made up of elements of the units comprising the Brigade but in what sort of numbers ?
Can anyone tell me is a Brigade Hq Co a fighting unit or is it more admin with a few teeth?
Would this unit have the weapons and amo to fight off a sustained attack from a panzer unit ? like only 1 Bren.
And finally, and I think this is critical. John I think you raised the question of the reason why the RSM would be there. I think this could be your answer.

OK. Let me bounce this around.

On 23^rd RWF arrive St Floris.
When on 24^th was 2DLI tasked with defending St Floris. ????? Where did these guy’s come from as we know where the 4Co’s went.
We know that Bgd HQ was shown on a map outside Calonne. Did they move up to St Floris on 24^th.to a barn near the bridge (farm Boulet). Was it the 2DLI element of Bgd Hq that was tasked.
On 27^th Col Harrison initially orders 2DLI to fall back Through RWF. Were these Bgd Hq men as we also know where the 4 RWF Co’s where.
OK this next bit might seem obvious but if 2 DLI were to pull back through RWF. Where were RWF. ???? Second line of defence at bridge.?
Right, this brings a lot of brass into the area. We know there are 2 colonels. the RWF
Seem to have a lot of staff there, so I would expect 2DLI to have similar. We are told that RWF’s RSM is there so I think it fairly safe to assume that 2DLI’s RSM Goddard would be there also. With his Batman.Pte A Corkhill.

This would put the right people, in the right place, at the right time. BUT before we jump to any conclusions.
We know were Bn HQ’s were
Does anyone have any info regarding the location of Brigade HQ 24^th -27^th May???
This could be crucial.

ivor

**Baconwallah** · 12-07-2012, 00:08

All I can tell you, Ivor, is that the DLI WD says that on the 27th in the midst of the fighting the Brigadier turned up and sanctioned a withdrawal. Where he came from. no idea. Where he went after that, again no idea but probably N across the canal.

A Bde HQ might be able to defend itself after a fashion, if the orderly room clerks could find their rifles, but its fighting potential would be severely limited. That was, after all, not its intended function.

As for RSM Goddard, I can only repeat what I have said before and also implied in my previous post. Location unknown. If he was near the Rue du Bas-Hamel, it would tie in nicely with the testimony of M Boulet, but we have no evidence for that and no documented reason for his being there, away from Bn HQ. If he was at Bn HQ, it logically follows that the man seen by M Boulet must have been somebody else and we should be looking for another man with leg wounds in the combined HQ area of the cemetery. Nice puzzle.

John

teecee1941 · 12-07-2012, 01:16

John, your last paragraph seems to be the most logical answer to the mystery and it is the one I am going with at the moment, although I have swayed from one to the other quite a few times. As you say, if RSM Goddard and Pte Corkhill were in the cemetery HQ, then Victor Boulet would have seen a different soldier being shot, not Anthony. This would answer my short-term search, ie for the location of Farm Boulet, although I do not want to lose sight of the bigger picture which is, to find the unmarked grave of my father's brother. Is our French friend still on the case? Might he yet come up with a king size clue?

PS sent you a PM earlier

Tony

**Baconwallah** · 12-07-2012, 01:24

PM problem (full in-box) solved. Please try again at your convenience.

My French friend is still on the case and as far as I know was planning to go to St Venant this week to pester the Maire. I think we should ask him to try and contact M Faivre as well.

John

**ivor43** · 12-07-2012, 01:47

john.

a nice puzzle indeed.
But. we talk of Bn Hq's but seem to be ignoring Bgd Hq. we know it was at Calonne from the map.so where did it go from there. if the Brigadier suddenly turns up the hq must have been reasonably close. if i remember correctly an entry in the RWF Diary for 27th says that HQ suffered a direct hit and no further communications were possible and it then gave a list of persons missing. some of these we know were alive at the bridge,so what was this HQ. could it have been BGD HQ.
If he had been at the bridge when it was lost, is it not possible that,realizing that the situation was now impossible would he, instead of escaping over the bridge to the north,visit the Bn Hq to order the withdrawal and the blowing of the St Venant bridge

ivor

**Baconwallah** · 12-07-2012, 01:57

I've checked the RWF WD, Ivor. It says "0600 - Bn HQ Suffered a direct hit from arty fire." All the men listed as missing were officers belonging to Bn HQ. The entry was obviously made by a Company officer who after the action had the difficult task of producing some sort of an account for the WD, all officers of Bn HQ being dead or captured. Hence the "No further contact was made with Bn HQ."

John

**Bob Lake** · 12-07-2012, 12:18

A Brigade HQ in the field oftens splits to allow the Brigade Commander to get forward and as mobile as possible so he can influence the battle. Often known as a Tac HQ (tactical_HQ) which would have a security group 3, signallers 2, staff officers including the BAO (Brigade Artillery Officer) 3 and possibly some liaison officers from units to run orders to his units. Numbers would probably be three to four jeep sized vehicles. (12 to 15 persons say) The Main HQ would be elsewhere containing the balance of signallers manning rear link to Divisional HQ and Forward Links to the Commander and Units as well as the balance of staff officers and transport.

So it is quite feasible for Brigade HQ to a have been split into TAC and MAIN. The two parts tend to move separately in bounds in a mobile situation so that one foot is always on the ground but in the rout situation of Dunkirk I suppose anything could happen.

If all COs were together on the road bridge it was probably a brigade Orders Group (O Group).

I wish that I had chatted in more depth to Jack Wills (IO at the time) about all this at the time we were inaugurating the Memorial. He pointed out where the CO and BnHQ was shortly before they crossed the canal, it was in a ditch off the canal bank nearer the lock than the cemetery. I also took Demond Llewellyn (Q in the Bond movies) to Robecq to here his story with B Coy before he was captured. He found it very hard to identify locations but told a great story of how he was nearly shot as a spy by the Germans because the lock keeper had given him dry clothes after swimming the Bourne Canal just before he was captured.

Bob

**Baconwallah** · 12-07-2012, 13:43

Some clarification, after reading the War Crimes report.

The theory that M Boulet was actually a witness to a killing elsewhere, i.e. away from his farm, will not hold. The report clearly states that a British soldier, wounded in the legs, was shot at the Boulet farm. Witnesses: M Boulet, Mlle Josien.

The report describes atrocities in the St Venant area and the Calonne area. For St Venant it describes killings W and SW of St Venant as well as in St Venant itself, for Calonne it describes killings S of Calonne. Haverskerque does not come into it, sorry Ivor. Obviously the names St Venant and Calonne are used to indicate the administrative areas ('communes'), not just the villages themselves. Haverskerque is not only a different commune, it is also in a different Département.

John

**ivor43** · 13-07-2012, 11:30

Morning all. (well this was actually written last night )

I thought I understood the St Floris/bridge part of this action but as there is a Bgd HQ in the area it poses another set of questions. So, and i hope you will forgive me, I am going to keep shaking this for a bit to see what, if anything, falls out.

Something did. not what I expected. But a size 9 BOOT which promptly buried itself to the 3^rd lace hole you know where.

AARRGGHH ,(various forceful expletives) All along I have been thinking of a defensive line south from the bridge. one of you mentioned the Hq being 500yds ahead of the bridge. But it still did’nt register. Of course it wasn’t south from the bridge (bl**** stupid idea). If the Hq was 500yds from the bridge then the defensive line would have been somewhere in advance of it. and I assume would curve in a south west direction so that A Co RWF which as far as I know was still on the left flank of 2DLI. would end up on a roughly east/west axis with their backs to the bridge. Also covering Bgd Hq.( at this point if anyone wishes to make any suitable comments please feel free to do so).
OK so now I do understand. As the defensive line was pushed back then Bgd Hq staff would have had to evacuate towards the bridge. To a barn?. The RWF probably would have reached the bridge first and formed a defensive line so that 2 DLI and Brigade staff could get over the bridge. 2 DLI was unable to disengage, and were overrun some Bgd staff and forward Hq staff made it, some were wounded and others including RWF taken prisoner.
Guys, I may have been facing the wrong direction for 2 weeks but it has not really affected what I have written. It just means that it has taken me a lot longer to understand what I had been reading.
However looking east or south is of no consequence. If RSM Goddard and his Batman were either at the forward Hq or BGD Hq then they have to end up at or near the bridge.

Ok I am reading posts via my phone
first thank you Bob for that info re Brigade Hq a very interesting post.
With regard to the O Group what would be the composition. I am mainly interested in knowing if the RSM’s would be part of this group.
John thanks for the info re the war crimes report. Actually I have never considered Haveskirque as a possibility.
The rest is very interesting. With regard to the ‘Communes’ I assume these correspond roughly to our parishes, so I assume that St Floris is within the parish. But can we find how far east towards Calonne the boundary extends.
Right, if any of you are starting to think that I have fixation with this bridge you are probably right. My gut feeling tells me that this is the right place. Just one small, but very elusive, piece of info is all we need. It must be out there somewhere.
We know that units kept War Diaries would anyone know if a Bgd Hq would have kept records of Staff/planning meetings and would these contain a list of who was present.

Verriers as our DLI expert. John has located 4 DLI Co’s west of St Venant so have you any ideas what element of 2DLI was at the bridge?

ivor