saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

**ivor43** · 07-07-2012, 18:07

hi guys.
just a quickie. where ever i looked i have never seen any ref to 2DLI ever being further west than St Venant Cemetary. also bear in mind that once the Germans crossed the Lys they went east to attack Merville.
as teecee established very early on in this.the Boulet was a common name within the area so it is quite possible that there would be a number of farm boulet's
while all info is helpful some of this is confusing the issue.
we know that 2 DLI were tasked with holding St Flores on the 24th there is no evidence that they moved position before being overrun. i am very sorry but i have some misgivings about the positions stated in war diarys. we need to await info from the contacts and if we are wrong then reasses our position

ivor

**Baconwallah** · 08-07-2012, 00:31

Ivor, I've spent most of the afternoon and the evening digging around in my extensive library and have drawn you the attached map. Two coys of 2 DLI were spread along the Rue d'Aire, one of them Tom Rodgers who is remembered by a memorial plaque on the spot where he was killed. St Floris was the responsibility of 1 RWF and they repulsed a German attack there on 24th May before advancing to capture St Venant. The French named a road after LtCol Harrison on the other side of the canal. Later (c.26th May) one coy of 2 DLI (probably C Coy) was moved to the left flank of the RWF, at St Floris. The right flank of the brigade was held by the Berks at Bas Hamel itself.

The info about the Ferme Boulet being on the Bas Hamel road does not come from any war diary (the RWF WD is confused, the DLI WD gives no place names) but from the extract of the War Crimes hearings Tony sent me. My friend on the spot confirms it after enquiries made earlier this week. He will try to pinpoint the location next week.

The Germans (3 Pz Div) crossed east of St Floris and then turned right to Merville, leaving St Venant to the SS Verfügungs Div. You were certainly right there.

John

St Venant.jpg

**ivor43** · 09-07-2012, 16:28

Hi all.
I wrote the following last night before i saw johns latest post.you beat me to Rue Colonel Harrison.

If I seemed a bit short in my last post Im sorry, but I had just realized something that I found quite upsetting. which I will not include here. but since I pulled back on Friday I have not pulled out of the quest. During my searches I have acquired a large amount of info, small pieces from a large no of places. Pulling back has allowed me time to put this into some sort of order.
In all that I have read nowhere is there any indication that 2DLI was ever anywhere further west than St Floris except that after 27^th Bn HQ was moved to St Venant Cemetery.Neither is there any record, that i have found,apart from the 2 RWF Cos sent to take the bridge west of Robeq of RWF being any further west of St Venant.

What follows is based on known fact from entries in war records and several ww2 forum and a German military historical (English language ) site.

Fact. 3 Panzer took St Venant/St Floris the day before the attack by RWF/ 2DLI.

Fact. 3 Panzer contained Bridge Building units.

Fact. in one article I read the bridge was referred to as a TEMPORARY Bridge..???? Built by 3 Panzer.

Fact In RWF War Diary it states that Bridge Building Material was captured in ST FLORIS area.

Fact. In RWF War Diary it states that engineers were seen approaching from the Haverskerque direction but unfortunately were engaged before they could be captured. ???? From across the fields ?. (further relevance later).

Fact. On 24^th 2DLI tasked with Defiance of ST Floris. ??? and bridge

Fact. In RWF War Diary. 27^th May Bn HQ suffered direct hit. no further contact with HQ. persons missing Lt Colonel Harrison and others.
Fact. From 2DLI.Early 27^Th .Col Harrison issuing orders AT BRIDGE area. ??? Was RWF HQ also near Bridge.

Fact. Rendezvous for retreating forces was Haverskirque

Fact. From 2DLI. Col Harrison escaped over bridge. Killed SHORT TIME LATER…???? Col Harrison heading for Rendezvous. across fields. ***** Village of Le Corbie on the Haverskirque to Merville Rd,towards the Western end, has a road named Rue Du Colonel Harrison.

Fact. From 2DLI Col Harrison issued orders that anyone who could was to get over the bridge. ????? Did RSM Goddard order Private Corkhill to go.

Fact. From 2DLI.About 12.00 Private Corkhill seen by Goddard and others ( now P.O.W.s) wounded by the canal in both legs and neck ( not Critical ) assured by Germans that he would get treatment..

Fact. Private Corkhill never seen again.

On 29^th May . I suspect, that a number of local people including the 2 witnesses under the command of an S.S. Officer were collecting bodies within the area so it could be used as a holding area prior to crossing the bridge.

A British soldier was found alive but wounded in both legs. We know the result.

Ok. from here on things are very vague. we know that Private Corkhill had left his ’Dog Tags’ in the UK. thus making identification virtually impossible. If john can obtain some info from the autopsy report then we might get a bit further.

I also believe that Farm Boulet was near the bridge.

Finally in the page scanned from ‘ The Red Dragon’ it says. ’’Through the gap EAST of StVenant the enemies armored columns had advanced on Merville''

My own feeling is that it was Private Corkhill that was executed. and buried in the Robeq Rd. and that he was soldier 6 and is buried in the Cemetery at Calonne sur le lys

Is the burial plot of Soldier 6 known ???.

But of course I may be totally wrong.

ivor

**ivor43** · 09-07-2012, 17:16

hi
as a result of reading john's latest post.i wonder if we are looking at an entirely different phase of the battle. the only actions i am aware of that took place to the west was when the RWF Bn Hq tried to pull back to Haverskirque when they came under heave fire. or after the St Venant bridge was blown when many troops had to swim the river.
We know that the German troops would be to the west of Haverskirque,as they had access to the bridges at Robeq. so it is likely that Tom Rodgers was killed in a different action.
whatever units were to the east were effectively wiped out. this would leave the eastern flank of St Venant open which would be good reason for blowing the bridge as the town was becoming increasingly indefensible.

will keep looking when i can

ivor

**Baconwallah** · 09-07-2012, 20:39

You wonder if we are looking at an entirely different phase of the battle.

We are indeed, Ivor. While you have been producing an impressive number of facts which taken together form a first class description of the final hours of the RWF's stand at St Venant and St Floris against 3 Pz Div, I have been looking at the last stand of the DLI (and the Berks) against the SS Verfügungsdivision. The two actions are, although related in a larger context, the defence of the Lys Canal, unrelated in a more local sense.

The DLI probably shared responsibility for the road bridge at St Venant with the RWF. The situation is unclear. In its own sector, the DLI had to protect foot bridges across the canal. There was one just opposite Haverskerque (which stilll exists) and probably another one at Bas Hamel. Further W in the sector of 1 Berks there was a lock.

On the dispositions of 2 DLI a French historian wrote

La défense de Saint-Venant est complétée le 25 par l'arrivée des deux autres bataillons de la 6ème brigade: le 2nd Durham Light Infantry et le 1er Royal Berkshire. Les compagnies B et D du 2nd D.L.I. et le 1er Royal Berkshire sont envoyés dans la rue d'Aire (le 27 mai ils seront opposés au régiment S.S. Germania). Les compagnies A et C du 2nd D.L.I. occupent la plaine devant Saint-Venant entre les rues des Amuzoires et de Robecq. L'état-major du bataillon est situé dans une ferme située à l'intersection de la rue des Amuzoires et du canal.

and these dispositions you will find reflected in my little annotated map (post 102). Interestingly, he places 2 DLI HQ in the farm I originally pinpointed.

In short, although you found no trace of the Durhams W of St Venant, that does not mean they weren't there.

John

**Verrieres** · 09-07-2012, 23:03

Wow you have been busy ,now I can let you know a little more about the 2DLI involvement.First the DLI HQ was in Bas Hamel on the 24th May 1940 from the 24th May to the 27th it moved three times! The last was into a Barn which was near the RWF who had pulled back next to 2DLI to consolidate their forces the RWF were in the Cemetery I believe. C and A Companies fought a different action to that of D and B Companies who due to losses were operating as a composite unit. The order `Every man for himself` was given to the remnants of D and B Company by a senior NCO once all the officers had been killed..this was not part of Harrisons order it was made on the spot by the NCO. Harrisons order to fall back was given to the 2DLI Adjutant Capt Townsend who was shot in the face crossing the Bridge the order to fall back never reached 2DLI in the Barn.From the Barn action only 10 men plus the wounded Townsend escaped.I believe one or two were killed at Merville? on the 29th May 1940. You are looking at three seperate actions involving the DLI alone.A C and B companies were wiped out ,virtually, with a total of 150 men returning to England from a complement of nearly 700.Does this help or am I complicating things.

On other matters Baconwallah Disc posted!
On other matters and I hope this makes sense the locations of the unknowns that Tony has sent today are the original field burials the page is from In Search of Tom there is no title pageto the document .

The Autopsy reports are not in the hands of the Mayor of St Venant .Pte Tom Rodgers report was in the office of M.Faivre. Phew!

Best Wishes

Jim

**Baconwallah** · 09-07-2012, 23:25

An interesting post, Jim.

The three actions of 2 DLI as I understand it were
1 - next to the churchyard, together with 1 RWF
2 - around Ferme Boulet
3 - presumably on the southern fringe of St Venant village (I assume)

Apparently my first guess at Ferme Boulet was 50% right: the farm was HQ, but it wasn't Ferme Boulet since that was in or near Bas Hamel.

Two problems:
- is the inconnu at Ferme Boulet (burial report) the same man who according to M Boulet's testimony was buried near the Rue de Robecq? The two locations seem irreconcileable. So instead of field burials perhaps the document lists the locations of the casualties before they were taken away to a temporary grave at Rue de Robecq?
- if the man at Ferme Boulet was Pte Corkhill, then why were the RSM and he there instead of at HQ?

I think it's necessary for my French friend to go in search of M Faivre.

John

teecee1941 · 10-07-2012, 00:17

Hello Ivor. John,

We have certainly opened a can of worms here. I think it is unbelievable that the amount of information that has been turned up in the space of a week has not led to a satisfactory conclusion. I am a complete novice at this sort of thing and have, for almost the last three years, relied on Jim to supply me with all the information that I had up to last week when I joined this forum. I'm sure that the BBC could make an excellent documentary out of this. We may be an inch or a mile away from knowing the truth. Every night I go to bed with my head buzzing. This the sort of thing that can easily take over a person's life.

Before sentiment takes over, I have an extract from the diary of Major Townsend of the events of the 27th;- ''A verbal message came up that Col Harrison of the RWF whose HQ was a little further along the bank towards the bridge, wanted (to speak with) Col Simpson. As the CO had recently been at the RWF HQ talking to Bde HQ by wireless and not knowing exactly where he was (space) I crawled back to see Col Harrison. He said the position was untenable and that he was taking what men he could to form a bridgehead. I was to bring back any men I could''

The CO did not know exactly where he was. More and more, I am thinking that a feature of this whole scenario was that it was not known, constantly, where anyone was. Is it not possible that the DLI thought they were in one place and the RWF thought they were somewhere else, due to the earlier withdrawal of maps? Here is a bit more from the diary;-

.....''After a few minutes the armoured cars came on towards me, so I withdrew with two men and eventually reached the bridge...............Col Harrison's RSM came up to say that the armoured cras were approaching the bridge. I was told to get my men over the bridge. We ran the gauntlet of enemy MG fire but on reaching the other side I was shot in the face. A Welshman put on a field dressing and I managed to walk away under more MG fire..................When Col Harrison saw how close the leading tanks were, (150 yards) he ordered the RE to blow the bridge but none were available......................the situation became impossible because about 20 men were holding the bridge with only one Bren gun against at least five tanks........the leading tank came across the bridge and wiped out most of the men holding it and blew up some of the houses where men were sheltering..........this tank then made its way to the head of the road leading to Haverskerque and shelled three RWF carriers withdrawing. Its career was cut short by an 18 pdr gun..........sixty men under 2nd Lt Rudd made their way to the Forest of Nieppe and joined (B) Echelon.

John, I said that I had seen it written that the RWF and DLI were sent to fill up the gaping hole around Bas Hamel. You'll have to give me a day or two on this one as far as to where the information came from. I have read so much over the last few days and have passed stuff on in emails and on these pages. My head will burst soon, I'm sure.

**ivor43** · 10-07-2012, 15:26

Hi all.

OK. so we have successfully proved where the breakthrough took place. But I am now somewhat confused.
Right, this is now difficult as without internet access I have to rely on Memory, and a couple of john’s maps, and I have not been looking very much to the west. So, although I am not convinced this is the right place. What have I learned?
The RWF and some of 2DLI were approaching from the east. on 23^rd they reached St Floris.
24^th 2DLI was tasked with holding St Floris while RWF continued on towards St Venant taking it on 25^th. A. & C. Co’s RWF carrying on towards the western bridge near Robeq which they were unable to reach. Taking some casualties. Where did they take up position when they withdrew?
If my memory is still working A.& D Co RWF were placed on the left flank of 2DLI,at St Floris. With D Co continuing towards Robeq until they were ambushed.

Ok. John on your map you show DLI forces on an E/W axis I assume facing south ? but if the Germans were already on the North bank surely the threat would come from their west flank. And on your map showing the breakthrough area it would appear that the German front did in fact hit the west flank of DLI and as they seem to have troops further north then I am not sure how any troops from DLI would be able to get to the area you have marked as Farm Boulet. Surely they would be pushed back east or north east whilst your farm is north at Haveskirque.
Odd.
Assuming a flank attack then what are the options for DLI. Withdrawal to St Venant and cross the bridge. Without the internet I have no other idea and I will not speculate. I do recall reading that soldiers trying to swim the canal where machine gunned from the bank and also many drowned. I am not sure where but I think it was to the west of St Venant.
Will have to do some more digging, when I can. But in the meantime a couple of questions.
According to page 189 of ‘The Red Dragon’ it states ‘’ and recaptured by the British 2^ND Division on 25^th May (page 146)’’. I would like to see page 146, if possible. It also refers to 1^st RWF and PART of 2DI. Does 4 Co’s constitute a part? How many Co’s where there?

OK I was just about to bed down for the night when I had a flash of inspiration, it’s ok it wasn’t painful. John your farm is in the region of Haveskirque. But the war crimes files state Calonne Sur le Lys - St Venant area. Surely this implies that the incident took place to the east of StVenant. But if it was where you suggest, surely it would read Haveskirque – St Venant Area.
While a lot of the stuff we are dealing with is, because of the situation, very vague. I do not think that the War Crimes Commission suffered this problem. And I am quite convinced that they would be pretty accurate with their locating the incident.
Just a thought, but maybe worth considering.

ivor

**ivor43** · 10-07-2012, 15:56

Hi all.
the above was written last night as a word document an i copied/pasted it in.this is now live. TeeCee.What you are quoting, i believe ,refers to the action at the bridge east of St Floris. it gives a few more details to what.i already know.
i believe it confirms that both 2DLI and RWF had HQ's at the bridge. If the 2 Colonels were there then i would think it could have been Bn HQ's.
John . if the the 2DLI's Colonel was there then i assume it is quite possible that RSM Goddard would be there also, as would his Batman?
Back to Sq 1
OK..you all know my belief on this and,teecee's quote just strengthens that belief.

on a different subject. i have now found out that i can use my mobile phone as a Hotspot so i can access the Forum again.i have to check a few details re usage etc but it should mean that i can at least check what is going on.

ivor