Alfred Davies 2nd Battalion 1900

[Brenda Kinghorn]

Hi, I'm Norman's cousin who has joined in on the search for Alfred. I've attached a copy of the marriage certificate, but unfortunately it does not seem to contain his service number. How would we go about finding out any information on him that may be held in military records?
Regards,
Brenda
MarriageCert.jpg

[Baconwallah]

As I said in an earlier post, all I can find is a Pte A Davies 4718 on the 1900 China Medal Roll. That may be your Alfred Davies, but as only half the 2nd Bn received the China Medal he may well have belonged to the other half - which would explain the wrong rank of 4718 Davies. But then again, the number would be about right for a man born in 1876 and joining up when aged 18 or 19.

On the other hand, for a man with seven years service to reach the rank of Sergeant is unusual, although it is not impossible - Sgt Boreham did it in six years. Alfred Davies may have been, like Boreham, a very capable man.

I have checked the Great War Medal Index Cards and the surviving service and pension records on Ancestry, but found no trace of him. He may have served with another regiment, in which case it will be very difficult to find him on Ancestry. He may even have remained in India, at least for the Great War period.

Since many service and pension records were destroyed n the Blitz, the chances of finding him are almost nil. You could give the RWF Museum a try. Brian Owen, the Curator, will do what he can, but I don't think he will come up with any more than this.

John

[ap1]

Welcome Brenda.

This is an unusual thread. Normally John(BaconW) is having to search for a service number in order to track someones service. In this case however we have first class documentation to show that he was with the 2nd Bn at the in Pekin in Oct 1902, but not his service number. Lots of historical information is available about the Boxer Rebellion which ended in 1901, which helps build up a picture of his service. The Marriage Cert also names the SNCO's who acted as the witnesses, another line worth following, just to see what happened to them as their service progressed. I assume they were Alfred's friends.

John, would I be correct in saying that his lack of a China Medal means he may have arrived after the Boxer Rebellion ended in 1901 or is there errors on the medal roll? Could he have possibly been with the 1st Bn in South Africa?

Then he moves to India with the 2nd Bn. Again, because of Frank Richards and his book "Soldier Sahib" you have a first class account of life for Alfred, in the very battalion that he was serving with, whilst he was there. If you can get a copy of the updated version of the book(somebody have a link?) that would be useful as many more names are mentioned in the book, plus loads of interesting research is included on the characters mentioned by Richards.

Finally you have his time with the Assam Bengal Railway Volunteer Rifles. That is another route of interest. I'm not really sure what happened to Indian Army Records, but an exciting route for you to follow and research.

I think it would be well worth contacting the RWF museum to see if they can assist. I would also suggest a visit to the RWF museum which is located within the grounds of Caernarfon Castle. I'm pretty sure they have an audio recording made in the 1950's of an old soldier from the 2nd Bn recounting his experiences of the rebellion, which was an extremely bloody affair. Besides that, a visit will give you a clearer picture of service in those times with the regiment.

Lots to look at and who know's, his number may yet still appear.

Keep us posted on this please.

Thanks

[Baconwallah]

John, would I be correct in saying that his lack of a China Medal means he may have arrived after the Boxer Rebellion ended in 1901 or is there errors on the medal roll? Could he have possibly been with the 1st Bn in South Africa?

Quite correct, Al. Only four companies of 2nd RWF took part in the campaign to relieve the Pekin legation. The other four arrived later and only served with the Army of Occupation (as we would now call it) - no gongs for them!

Good idea to check the South Africa Medal Roll. I did, and it doesn't help much. Eight men named A Davies, ten if we add AG and AP Davies. Only one is not a Pte, L/Sgt AG Davies 2451, but his number is far too low and indicates attestation in 1890-91. And again we can't be sure that it is the wrong man either: what if he joined as a drummer boy? Lowest age allowed was 14 years, which reasoning from the number might indicate birth year 1876, which would be about correct....

Of the other SA candidates, only Ptes A Davies 4223 and 4555 and Pte AP Davies 2527 (if enlisted as a boy) might qualify. The numbers of the others are too high for Sergeant's rank in 1902.

The only argument against a 1st Bn transfer is that as far as I know the first men transferred from the 1st to the 2nd Bn did not arrive until the 2nd Bn was in India.

In short, as I sometimes helpfully remark at the end of a post, 'Take your pick'.

Of the witnesses, C/Sgt Harry Yates 1880 (Ashton-under-Lyne, 3 May 1868) was the 2nd Bn Quartermaster in the Great War. He enlisted May 1878 and was promoted L/Cpl Jan 1889. In Jan 1912 he became Hon Lt and QM and was promoted Hon Capt in June 1917. He retired in 1920. And he did not qualify for the China Medal. C/Sgt E Jones was probably the Sgt Jones 3866 whose name is on the China MR.

As for the Assam Bengal Railway, it was not unusual for Time Expired men to remain in India and take a job with the railways. See Old Soldier Sahib. And by the way, the annotated edition of Old Soldier Sahib is completely sold out. I do have the text available as a pdf file, without the photos.

John

[ap1]

Wow! Harry Yates!!! I certainly know that name from "The War The Infantry Knew". My guess is that Sgt Davies name will appear in the Wrexham archives, but thats unlikely to happen until after digitisation.

Here's my daily "Wild stab in the dark".........Norman mentioned he has a picture of Alfred has a Sgt Maj. I wonder if its best dress, with ribbons showing? That may help to date his service better. I know its clutching at straws, but you never know?

[Baconwallah]

Yes, Harry Yates was quite a character. At one time he ran the soda water factory at Agra. Freemason too, I believe.

The photo is a good idea, although I do not expect much of it. At best it will show the ribbon of the China medal (yellow-red-yellow).

I have a copy of Nick Lock's article on the China campaign somewhere, will look for it. Would be good for the Vault.

John

[Brenda Kinghorn]

Lots to think about there! As always there are about thirty avenues to try. I've attached a copy of the photo of Alfred in the Assam Bengal Volunteer Rifles, taken in 1910. The names didn't scan, but Alfred is second from the left on the back row. I would appreciate your comments on it.
I have bought a copy of Old Soldier Sahib, it's a bit of an eye-opener! The copy I have contains no photos though, would this be an older edition?

Brenda
Alfred2.jpg

Back row: Col Sergt Inst A. Scott, Sergt Major A. Davies, Col Sergt Inst H. Jones, Col Sergt Inst C.H. Memmett;
Front row: Capt and Offg Adjutant C.H.O.Baker, Lt Col R.S. Hawkins V.D, Lt and Quarter Master J.T.Mawhood.

[Baconwallah]

Your copy of OSS (Old Soldier Sahib) is the standard edition, Brenda. There is also an annotated and illustrated edition, published by D.E. Langley and myself in 2005. It has been out of print for some time, sorry. I had a look at the internet and just now noticed that a copy is for sale at Abebooks for $109.57, which is considerably more than the original price! CQ, however, seems to have a copy left at the more reasonable price of 20 pounds, see http://www.cqout.com/item.asp?id=4642296. If that doesn't work out, your local library should be able to find and lend you a copy.

Thanks for the photo. Alfred has obviously made officer rank, judging by his Sam Browne. The photo is not big enough to say more; the medal looks like the China Medal, but it's hard to make out.

On further reflection, I more and more like L/Sgt AG Davies 2451. Is there any family tradition of Alfred joining the Regt as a boy soldier?

John

[ap1]

Great picture Brenda.

Look more closely at Alfred's lower right arm John. You can see inverted stripes, with possibly a crown or similar above. The guy to his right is also wearing a Sam Browne with Sgt Stripes. I think he is still a ranker. I might ask Richard Ward if he has any info, he doesn't visit much these days, but has an amazing amount of stuff on RWF medal rolls and associated info.

[Brenda Kinghorn]

Have had another look at the photo.
Back row: Col Sergt Inst A. Scott, Sergt Major A. Davies, Col Sergt Inst H. Jones, Col Sergt Inst C.H. Memmett;
Front row: Capt and Offg Adjutant C.H.O.Baker, Lt Col R.S. Hawkins V.D, Lt and Quarter Master J.T.Mawhood.