The AV Referendum - How Will You Vote?

[Lofty-25]

In my opinion, it does not matter who gets into power. The country is in such dire striates that the elected will not be able to change the countries situation for the foreseeable future, only more job losses and more taxes, so why would the 18/19 year olds bother to vote for any party (at the moment) who can not guarantee them any sort of future (jobs and housing)

[Paul Hinge]

God Lofty I nearly took the gun out of thr cupboard your analysis was so depressing but has a big hint of truth in it!
If we all took the view that our vote was not worth using because of the mess the country is in then yes we will get the same old same old. What politics is about is priority of choice and it's the politician who says they can as closely do for you what you feel is important who you should vote for.
The referendum on AV is a chance to make your vote count because under tyhe first past the post system in many constituencies MP's are getting back to Westminster with between 25-33% of the vote. If you dont like the party or politician that keeps being sent back then AV gives you an opportunity to rank the candidates/party in order so say for instance you lived in a Labour dominated area and you realy would like you candidate whose let's say a Green Party candidate then you would put a number 1 against his name and then all the other party's in your order of preference or you my just wish to put a 1 against your choice. If as is likely to happen the candidate coming first fails to attract 50% or more of the vote at the first count then the candidate coming last drops out and their 2nd preference votes are redistributed....so if your Labour man came first with say 33% of the vote and your Green Party person came second with 30% and the last candidate had 20% of the vote and all their second choice votes were for the Green Party man then he would win. It makes sure everyones vote counts that's why many MP's in safe Labour or Tory seats dont want it because if AV was to take place they could well lose their seats on the second or third preference vote count. That's democracy when your vote really counts and your MP will need to work for you and not just toddle off to Westminster with and reap the rewards available!

Hingey

[Gwyn Nicholas]

Hingey, I could not disagree more. Your own example shows why it is not a good system.

Labour 33%

Tory 30%

Lib/Dem 20%

Others 17%

Lowest goes out first giving their second votes ie all 17% to their second choice.

Lab 3% making 37%

Tory 2% making 32%

Lib dem 12% making 32 %

still no majority so third choice of the original parties knocked out.

only 5 third choices from the other parties all for LIB DEM

Lab now 37%

Tory 32%

lib Dem now 37% Tories are now eliminated

Tory second votes - Labour or Lib Dem .

My guess given that choice Lib Dems would get more votes therfore putting a party who originated in third place by the original vote, into power.

That is my second attempt anyone know if that is right.

[sixties]

I am with you on this Gwyn.

[Keith Jones 989]

THIS IS AN ENTIRELY PERSONAL VIEW AND IS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY ROLE AS A MODERATOR ON THIS FORUM


In response to Hingey's query I have to say that the country's political system has been destroyed through lethargy by the electorate and the system of party politics we employ.

I lived in Hartlepool from 2004 to 2008 and whenever politics came up the resounding response from people involved in the discussion was 'it doesn't matter what I believe I have to vote Labour or the rest of my family will disown me' - end result, hundreds of thousands of voters choose to disenfranchise themselves and contribute nothing to the running of their country. For my part I would rather these people just didn't bother to vote, thereby making the votes of those people who are prepared to consider the options put forward by aspirants worth something.

As far as party politics is concerned I am firmly convinced that it is THE reason why this country's political system has become as corrupted as it currently is. EVERYTHING which goes on in the LibCon Coalition is based on keeping themselves in power - absolutely NOTHING to do with the wishes of the electorate (repeated denial of the promised EU referendum, a promise which, I believe, was the ONLY reason the Conservatives got so many votes, is the obvious best example of this) or 'the good of the country'. Throughout the 13 years of Labour rule it was THE PARTY which mattered and nothing else - until, latterly, when it was proved to be that elected members put their self enrichment before even THE PARTY, when it came to helping themselves to taxpayer pounds.

Finally, for my part I would like to see 646 (or however many seats that are available at the next election) independent MPs elected at the next general election. With no party line to follow there would have to be some honest negotiation between those we elect, if anything is to get 'done'. If the country and our way of life has to be destroyed (and it IS currently being destroyed) I would rather it was destroyed because 646 honest people could not come to an agreement on something/anything, as opposed to the current scheme where the destruction arises out of the political ideology of a very few basically dishonest fraudsters who got into power having lied to the electorate and then operated to the benefit of THE PARTY (notwithstanding any future revelations about even more abuse of the expenses/tax free allowances these people vote themselves) above all else.

PS - I am one of the 5 who has polled 'I will vote FOR AV'. This is not for any other reason than the current system has patently failed and if we don't change then this country is doomed. If changing from First Past The Post to Alternative Voting is the only change available then so be it!

[Gwyn Nicholas]

The political system in this country has not been destroyed. We have recently gone through a general election, that granted has not (for some) reached a perfect outcome. However the system has worked in that we now have a coalition Government. There has been no tribal warfare or calls of vote rigging or the introduction of neutral adjudicators to oversee the electoral process. It might not be perfect and has grey areas but it is democratic and who has a better system blueprint that we can follow.

Who people vote for and why, is up to that individual, it is their right to choose. Why should they measure up to some standard or level of reasoning before they cast their vote. It is not a requirement within a democratic society and it would verge on some sort of elitism if it were considered.

Without party politics, where you have mainstream partys who can work together in Government and a solid and competetive opposition, you have Communism and tin pot Republics led by the likes of tyrants like Ghadaffi in Libya and Castro in Cuba. Whatever your misgivings, I doubt you would wish that as the future of Britain. There are crooks in every walk of life and in positions of trust, the trick is to catch them and send them down like any other crook.

I am trying to imagine 640+ of the most honest men and women in this country sitting down and agreeing to anything at all, without some sort of guidelines and leadership. Put two women in the same kitchen for one whole day and you will see why 640 individuals would never get anything done.

To say that this coalition is doing everything it can to stay in power is a strange statement, as all I hear is disdain for all the cuts that are happening and bitterness toward them. They would be misguided if they were to think they were winning the popularity vote.

As for the AV system that of course the individuals choice and I believe that many people do not really understand it (not sure if I do). That alone is enough to make people stay with what they know and that does not make them unworthy. I personally will not vote for the AV for the reasons shown in my post above (that is my understanding of how the system would work). I may be wrong and welcome being put on the right track.

Incidently, did they not hang a monkey in Hartlepool thinking it was a French or Spanish spy.

[Dai 55]

Gwyn/Paul
can you answer me one question each year the BNP party is getting more votes WHY?
They say the English defence leauge will have 200,000 members by the end of the year,is the country worried about something,or are the people saying we have had enough?

Dai 55

[Gwyn Nicholas]

I dont know the answer Dai, but I suspect it is down to the immigration situation in the country and the fact that previous Governments and so far this one have done nothing to alay the fears of those people. I believe the term we used in the military, was "voting with ones feet". Pathetic as it may sound, I have done the same by writing to Mr Cameron recently about how angered I am about the cuts in our Forces and that he and his party no longer have my support. Small coal to him but I have made my individual stand. Will I run off and join the BNP, of course not.

You may have got the impression from my posts that I am totally happy with the way things are in this country, I can assure you that I am not. I do however believe in democracy and the democratic way of life that we enjoy in this country. Everything must evolve including politics or it will become a thing of the past and obsolete however, change for change sake as I believe this AV system is (only as I understand it ) is not the way to do it. If it is voted in, I will accept it as the democratic wish of the people. I will not scream from the rooftops "you are all wrong because I am right"

NO party in this country whilst it remains democratic, will ever stop immigration totally and no party will defy Europe as long as we remain partners. The BNP and the other radical partys will never get the support needed to actually run this country so if a few frustrated radicals turn to them to vent their frustrations so be it, but just like me and my letter to the PM....small coal.

[jungle1810]

Hello all,
"Smile Hingey you are on Candid Camera, aka BBC Wales. You struck a friendly pose for the cameras.Hingey further to your love of the AV system on the first count the politician who come second can often win the seat, Manifestly unfair.
I have often heard the quotation "She and comparisons are odious" but compare the following facts.
I have some thoughts for the forum members to consider. America is run by some 535 elected members 100 Senators and The House of representatives have 435 members.America has a population of some 307, 006, 550 as of July 2009. America has a land mass of 9,826,630 Sq KM or 3,794, 083 Sq miles.
The UK send 650 members to the House of Commons, plus 792 members to the House of Lords (as well as 39 who are on leave of absence,or other wise disqualified from voting. The UK has a landmass of 11,056 Sq Km or 94,251 SQ Miles The United Kingdom has a population of 61,133,205 people. So regardless of how the UK votes do we really need some thing like 3 times the governance that run the U.S.A.America has approximately 5 times our population. So the founding Fathers of the US of A were way ahead of us even all those years ago when the Constitution was signed.
In the United States every vote counts and are only counted once not two or three times.
how about RBD's idea of fair play on the voting system. First cut the House of Lords down to 350 members, Cut the House of Commons down to 340 members. When the votes are counted allocate them to the main parties as a percentage of the turn out, and let the hierarchy of each party select who they want from this system (tongue in cheek of course)
Regards to all my readers as ever, RBD aka jungle1810

[Keith Jones 989]

'The political system in this country has not been destroyed.'

That is not what I said, Nic. I said 'the country and our way of life is being destroyed' by the political system currently in use.

Hanging spies - it was a monkey, because it was believed to be French - he was, it is reported, two or three centimetres taller than Nicolas Zarkosy.