Frank Williams WW2 Wrexham TA, RWF mix of units, Killyleagh, Possible Commando time

We have just received records for both my grandfathers. One is very straightforward, easy to follow and ties in with everything we already knew. The other is proving confusing and I would be grateful for any help anyone can offer which might shed some light on some of it.

Frank Williams was initially in the TA, signed up in Llay, Wrexham in June 1939. He was embodied 2/9/39 into the 8th Unit RWF.
Jan 1940 Lance Corporal 8th unit
May 1940 Acting Corporal 8th Unit
June 1940 Posted to ITC Wrexham (assume this is Infantry Training Centre?)
22/6/40 posted to/TOS 50th HB (assume 50th Holding Battalion)
27/8/40 Corporal
22/9/40 Posted 4th unit Down Patrick
something in May 1941 about a Court Martial about allowing members of his guard to be improperly dressed and not inspecting the arms of his guard before dismounting? (he always said it was because he fell asleep on watch or something) - reduced to ranks
1-3/10/41 CRS Dromore
14/3/42 Posted to 31st Battalion RWF Lichfield
18-22/4/42 CRS Vanguard Bangor
Mar 1943 - SPP (is this Special Proficiency Pay?) granted
16-24/4/43 Military Hospital Abergale
5-12/5/43 CRS Portmadoc
12-23/6/43 CRS Portmadoc
17/12/43 Posted to Y List ASC (is ASC Army Service Corp? would make sense given the next entry)
27/1/44 Transferred to RASC as a driver and from here on very logical, easy to follow and matches what he said

SO this might look quite normal to everyone else, I don't know but from what this says he basically stayed in Wales and Ireland for the duration of the war and went into hospital a lot for completely unknown reasons.

What he SAYS he did in the war was commando training in Benbecula, something in Norway which shocked him a lot and he refused to ever talk about it but was upset when there was something on the TV about it many years later, just said he had been there, they had been on land for 48 hrs and been very heavily bombed. He also said that half his Battalion went to India but he didn't because he had pneumonia so then those who had been kept behind were sent to do other things but I don't understand why nothing is mentioned anywhere about him doing any commando training or going to Norway. I don't believe he invented all that. He was asked after the war to be an officer in the Pioneer Corp (?).

Any help or ideas of any way we might find out any more would be very gratefully appreciated. Very sadly he was killed alongside my Grandmother in the 1970s so there has been no opportunity to ask any questions.

There are no medals listed anywhere, not even the standard ones which I know he refused to claim as did my Grandmother and other Grandfather so I have no other information there.

thank you

A warm welcome Anniek.

At the outbreak of WW2. The military planners were concerned about Scandinavia. So in secret an allied force of divisional size was formed to halt any German advances through Norway etc. It was called Avonforce This landed in Norway on the 14th April. However they did not have enough men to cover the coastal areas between the defended locations at Namsos and Narvik, additionally they also needed raiding parties, so they formed Independent Companies. Smaller than an infantry battalion, but able to operate independently for up to a month. Each section was led by a Lieutenant. They were designed to operate from ships which would act as a floating base….Hence they had no transport.

The men were drawn from 1st and 2nd line TA Units, including the RWF (158) Inf Brigade in Northern Ireland. No 2 Company was formed in April 1940 and commanded by Maj Hughie Stockwell RWF. The men were a mixture of all the welsh infantry TA battalions. They were formed into three platoons. 158. 159 and 160. There was also independent companies formed from TA units on the UK mainland.

The men from 158 Inf Brigade were then moved to Ballykinlar in Co Down, into "Green Village" and then commenced arduous training in the Mourne Mountains. By the 13th May they were landing at Bodo Norway. Eventually Stockwell had to take command of 2 x Independent Companies during the fighting withdrawal, this was codenamed "Stockforce"

For a brief overview of their actions in Norway see the Wiki entry for their commander Hughie Stockwell: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Stockwell

8 RWF Franks original unit was a 2nd Line TA Infantry Battalion, its function was to provide replacements or reinforcements to its 1st Line TA infantry brigade "158(RWF)" which was deployed in Northern Ireland. Looking at the details you provided, it appear he was posted to 4th RWF within that brigade at Downpatrick in Sept 1940 after the Norway action.

As to whether Frank served in Norway? It's very possible, either with 2 Ind Company, or one of the companies formed on the UK mainland. To my knowledge this is the first query we've dealt with regarding the Norway action, so documentary sources are limited. There is no mention of Benbecula in the limited sources I have, however, its possible that other units did train there before deploying to Norway as part the independent companies..

By the way, what was his service number?

Here is the infantry order of battle for the Norwegian Campaign:

Attachment 3138

thank you very much for replying. His number was T/4195427 The T was dropped on later papers - I assume it is because he was TA?

It is all so complicated to someone who knows nothing about it. He always said he was one of the first to do commando training.

I am also very puzzled as to why he kept ending up in hospital in North and West Wales when the records imply he was in Lichfield which I thought was in Staffordshire. 31st Battalion RWF.

I appreciate your help.

Its worth pointing out that although they arrived on the 13th May at Bodo, the Independent Companies under Stockwell's command actually fought the withdrawal battle against the Germans for about 4-5 days in length. From the 25th - 29 May 1940. Which would fit in with Franks short timeline. Unlike the main troops, who'd been there since April.

yes that would make sense. It would also possibly tie in with him then being shuffled back to Wrexham at the end of June.

Is it usual though for anything like that not to have been recorded anywhere? I mean I realise they couldn't possibly log everything for everyone as that would have been impossible with the sheer number of soldiers but I am just surprised it looks like he never went anywhere or did anything for the whole duration of the war (except be charged once and go to hospital a few times)


Thank you for your help.

I have the No 2 Service Company War Diary... it has details of nearly every man who served, I'll shifty through it but may take some time to get round to it.

wow - thank you, no rush at all.

I am trying to think if there is anything else we know about him. I know he was a very boxer during the war and was asked to turn professional but he said no. I wish we had started looking a lot earlier to be honest as there may have been people around who remembered a tall redhead who was good at boxing but hindsight is a wonderful thing. I think it is important to find out what we can to pass on to my children. We are about to apply for my father in law's records too, he was in the first wave of troops into Belsen but he too died many years ago so we don't know very much about him either.

Personally him returning to Wrexham makes little sense as most stayed with the Company, those who didn't returned to their relevant unit in 53 Div, but he may be an exception to that rule. Hopefully the WD clears things up!

Hi Anniek.

I have been looking at CRS Dromore. It appears that the RAF had a station there during the war, but i can not find out much about it. but will keep looking.

guy's. is it possible that CRS could stand for Commando Reception Centre.



ivor

I was also wondering what "CRS" is. Maybe his unit had guarding commitments at these locations.

The WW2 Forum lists : CRS - Chief Review Services; or Control and Reporting School

all the hospital stays were CRS. so CRS Dromore which I think must have been in Northern Ireland as that is where he was at that time, CRS Vanguard - Bangor, CRS Portmadoc so I just assumed it meant something hospitally? I know he was in Dromore for scabies. I must try and scan the papers in, it might be clearer but they are A3 so not sure how to do it tidily. Might try photographing high resolution instead.

Thank you for your help everyone.

I wonder why he went back to Wrexham for more training then in 1940 if people tended to stay in their groups. But it looks like he was posted at the same time to the 50th holding battalion so perhaps that was why he was moved and they just did a briefing or something at the ITC in Wrexham?

Just asked my mum and she said she remembers him saying they were turned loose in the mountains for survival training and he killed a sheep for food so that could well have been training in the Mourne mountains and she said when she asked where Narvik was once because it was in a book she was studying at school he said he had been there during the war so he must have been somewhere in that area. With regards to him saying he went to Benbecula (which according to some things on the internet was used for landing vessel training - is that the right term?) she said she read the name once when she had ordered some tweed material from there and pronounced it as "ben b cooler" and he said it was Benbecula and he had been there for training during the war.

Hi Again.
CRS. ok
CRS Portmadoc Links to a WERN MANOR Portmadoc a Land army unit.
CRS Vanguard Bangor No info
CRS Dromore.

Possible RAF Base in Gillhall Manor? (possibly haunted)

But Dromore is 15 ish KM from Lisburn and there, is a Forthill House and Grounds which was used as an Army Camp with the RWF being one of the first units to be stationed there.

Also the Nominal Roll of 1 Commando has a Private F Williams.


ivor

hi Anniek

Benbecular was Commando training country.


ivor

ooh thank you - that is great.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vori101

Hi Again.
CRS. ok
CRS Portmadoc Links to a WERN MANOR Portmadoc a Land army unit.
CRS Vanguard Bangor No info
CRS Dromore.

Possible RAF Base in Gillhall Manor? (possibly haunted)

But Dromore is 15 ish KM from Lisburn and there, is a Forthill House and Grounds which was used as an Army Camp with the RWF being one of the first units to be stationed there.

Also the Nominal Roll of 1 Commando has a Private F Williams.


ivor

---

He is listed as a corporal or a fusilier on his records, I don't understand the ranks. It would have been helpful if he had had a slightly more unusual surname wouldn't it!

hi .
Corporal is a Rank to which he had been Promoted.
Fusilier.
In most Army units the lowest ranks are known as Privates. but some units are known as FUSILIERS. as in Royal Welch. these tend to be the older units. The RWF goes back to the 1600's when they were named The 23rd Regiment of Foot. They have been Known as The Royal Welch Fusiliers since 1881, I think it was. With a great deal of pride and respect to which they are entitled. A very Heroic Unit.


ivor

ah I see - so if he had moved across to say 1 Commando then he would be a private as it is the equivalent rank. thanks. It could be him then.

hi again
just found this

''Technically these men were only on secondment to the Commandos; they retained their own regimental cap badges and remained on the regimental roll for pay.[5]''

the men had volunteered to be commando's. so Frank would have been still RWF, on paper.


ivor

Al.
In view of this last bit of info.
Is it possible that CRS is used to indicate that he was away from RWF on Commando Regiment Secondment.
Possible.


ivor.

ok. I wonder if that is why there seems to be no actual indication of him doing that in the notes then.

I have photographed them and they are pretty legible but are too big to attach so am just trying to shrink the files.

Well i would assume that the RWF would not know what he was doing only that he was away from the unit.


ivor

Attachment 3139

yes that would make sense. Does that mean though that there should be some other notes for him somewhere? I wonder. It would help fill in the blanks a bit if there were.

I only seem to be able to attach one picture. Can't seem to now add any more. If I shrink them too much though they won't be readable. Might have to come up with another idea.

Thanks for your info.

hopefully this will work better than me trying to add photos
http://www.flickr.com/photos/einnaf/

these are the relevant pages we were sent. There were other standard pages about when he joined up etc but these are the only bits relating to the war years.

Hi All.

Can anyone help me here.
If Frank is Commando as well as RWF then which would take precedence. for instance if he was 1st Bn and they were to be posted some where abroad would Frank have been posted to a UK or Ireland unit. or maybe even a hospital, so as to be available if needed. This might account for him being in UK for the duration.
and
Anniek.
SPP may be Supplementary Partial Payment. Hmmm.

ivor.

what could a supplementary partial payment have been for?

could it have had something to do with him having been Married the previous Sept ???.



ivor

they got paid for getting married?

doubt it. but would he have received a higher rate of pay as a married man?????

oh I see - I suppose it is possible.

I wondered if it was Special Proficiency Pay - I found a reference to that somewhere online I think.

hi.
SPP.
Special Proficiency Pay.

''It was a "special award for ranks below sergeant, granted at CO's discretion, of 3d per day after 3 years' service for proficiency above the average, with a limit on the number of private soldiers to be so rewarded". Subject to annual classification.''

possible,


ivor

yes that could be the SPP.

The Commando Veterans forum have said that CRS stands for Casualty Reception Station (also sometimes called CCS Casualty Clearing Station) so that makes sense with it being hospitals.

they quoted



An extract from the War Diaries of 70 Infantry Brigade who were on exercise in North Wales in April 1942:

<cite>War Diaries wrote:</cite>Medical

The Camp Reception Station was opened by 187 Field Ambulance on the first day of occupation. More serious cases were sent to the Casualty Clearing Station at PORTMADOC.

hi.
I think you may well be right about Casualty Reception Station, 'Casualty Clearing Station.' Makes more sence
Looking at the Photo's. i think you have misread ''Vanguard'' I believe it should be ''Vaynol''.Faenol in Welsh. which is a Big House just outside Bangor. But i am not finding much ww2 info.
i will keep looking.


ivor.

Don't forget special proficiency pay was also given for things like Parachute qualifications amongst other things (still is I believe)

ah yes it quite possibly could be Vaynol. Just shows how much easier computer fonts make things! thank you.

I don't think he would have done parachute training or anything like that but then I don't know what he did do. I did wonder if it was possibly to do with specialist training he would presumably have had to do as a volunteer commando. I suppose it could cover a range of things couldn't it. Thank you.

hi all.
looking at the history of Downpatrick. found the following rwf reference.


''The 123rd Ordnance Battery of the 1st Armoured Division of the United States Army moved into the old Downpatrick Gaol in May 1942. With a compliment of 210 men they stayed there until October 1942. They were under the command of Lt. Colonel John Waters who was the Son-In-Law of General Patton and set up his Headquarters at Downpatrick Racecourse.They had been at Newcastle for about two weeks before going to Downpatrick to replace the 6th Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers who later became the 53rd Reconnaissance Corps.''

another interesting link to killyleigh
http://ww2ni.webs.com/countydownpart4.htm

you will have to scroll down to the entry on H.M.S.RAWDAH.





ivor

that is very interesting. He seems to have left Ireland in March 1942 so that would presumably tie in with them all leaving to be replaced by the American troops.

I still can't find any reference anywhere on the internet to the 31st Battalion in Lichfield which is where he then moved to in March '42.

Interesting about the ship - have just looked that up and it talks about it holding IRA prisoners.

hi.


Lichfield, Whittington Barracks (AAF-598) Pre-WWII Army Barracks occupied by US Army Units c.1943 1st QM Battalion (Mobile), 7th Chemical Depot Company, 28th Ship Hospital Platoon, 28th Station Hospital, 3rd Station Hospital (190 beds)


Lichfield, Old College House, 26/28 Dam Street WWII Lichfield Sub-Area HQ, Lichfield Sub-District HQPheasey Farms Camp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whittington_Barracks


ivor

thank you - my googling obviously isn't up to scratch! I always thought I was quite good at finding stuff out but not with this search.