4189281 Cpl William Christopher Watson - RWF 1930's

Attachment 3120

Guys, a Gibraltarian family on Facebook are trying to find out more about 4189281 Cpl William Watson who was in the regiment in the 1930's. The request comes from his grandson who's parent was born on Gibraltar whilst Watson was serving there.

It looks like he left the island in the late 1930's and was never seen or heard of again. What we do have is as follows.

From Richard Ward:. William Christopher Watson joined the RWF on 11th July 1930 and left the regiment on the 10 April 1941. At this stage that's all we've got.

His family traced him to an address in Swansea in 1938 after writing to the 2nd Bn in India in that year. Any of our researchers have this man on their files? What would good is his date and place of birth, as this will be a springboard to identifying living family.

Finally for the experts, can the family apply for his service record, without the date of birth?

Thankshttp://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gif

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Originally Posted by ap1

Finally for the experts, can the family apply for his service record, without the date of birth?

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The form says "Service number and/or date of birth", Al, so no problems expected.

Here are the download links for both forms required:

Request for Service personnel details: next of kin form (v6) (PDF)

Request for Service personnel details: British Army part 2 (PDF)

Fill in the forms, then add three tenners and that's it.

John

Thanks John, i've passed that detail onto them, i'm hopeful they will register on here.

In the 1911 Census. The 29 Richards St addess in Manselton, Swansea was occupied by the "Wood" family

One of the issues with the forms John, is the requirement for a death cert and NOK details…also feasibly this man may still be alive(unlikely). We know he joined in 1930. So i'm assuming he was aged 15-22…so a possible birth between 1908-1915….Nightmare. I've asked the enquirer "Ernest" for any other small pieces of info...

hi.
1911 census only comes up with.

http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/r...x?x=1998505838

ivor

Thanks Ivor, but I can't read that, as you need a log in. I have sent a message to one possible family tree on Ancestry…But the entry lacks detail. Williams grandson, Ernest, also has pictures of William serving in China….Looking at Red Dragon. The 2nd Bn arrived in Gib in 1931 and departed on the 21st Oct 1934. Heading to Hong Kong.

On the 14th Aug 1937, the 2nd battalion at short notice deployed to Shangai from Hong Kong to protect foreigners and property as the Japanese expansion into China gathered pace. They departed in Jan 1938, heading back to Hong Kong.

So it fits that he was a 2nd Bn man, as per the attached letter in 1939 sent by the 2nd Bn from India

hi

ok .basically it says.
Schedule type Household.

Last Names Watson.


First Names William Christopher.


Sex Male.


Birth Year 1911


age in 1911 2 Months.


District/other West Bromwich


County/other Staffordshire.



ivor

hi.
a bit more.

Ancestry are listing 6 William C Watsons.
The West Brom one B jan Qtr 1911
1 Oct Qtr Neath.
1 Jul 1910 Pontyprydd.
3 1912 1 Apr qt southwark
1 jul qt Darlington
1Jul qt Godstone

Thanks Ivor, keep that on the back burner as it may be useful after Ernest has had a further talk with his father(Williams son) next week. If he knows where William was born we can then narrow it down.

Also note that "C" may not be on official documents…so it could also be William Watson.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ap1

One of the issues with the forms John, is the requirement for a death cert and NOK details…

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Ah, yes, there is that. Hadn't noticed.

John

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ap1

Also note that "C" may not be on official documents…so it could also be William Watson.

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Very true, unfortunately. The 1911 census often only gives the first name.

John

A couple of Xmas cards sent from William to his son and the mother of his child(Ernest's Grandmother) from Hong Kong. I would suggest Xmas 1937….The Bn was in China and did not depart to Hong Kong until Jan 1938…But the timings may not be accurate.

Attachment 3122Attachment 3123http://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gif

Actually, those Xmas cards may be from any period between Xmas 1934 - 38. The Bn were posted there in October 1934 and remained there until mid 1938

Attachment 3125Attachment 3126Attachment 3127Attachment 3128Attachment 3124Attachment 3129

this are a few more pics,havent ben to succesfull with my dad doesnt remember much,only that william went to swansea and finished his career in 1940sAttachment 3130thats him in the uniform dont know who the other person is

oh and i think he used to play cricket,i cant put the pic the site doesnt let me

Thanks Ernest. Anything of interest on your Dads Birth Cert? I'm wondering if Williams age might be listed, that would at least give us a birth year?

My father is not sure if he was 1 or 2 years less than my his mother or 1 or 2 more,she was born in 1912 so he must be if its more or less between 1910 to 1914

These are my favourite contenders so far :

WATSON William C Pontypridd Glamorganshire 1910
WATSON William C Neath Glamorganshire 1911

Do we have any names of other members of the family to work with?

his not on his birth certificate

that i know off here in gib there is no one else ny grandmother died and took everything with her,my father doesnt remember nearly anything,know if william watson had more kids or married again i dont know but would love too,so im seeing this like a mission impossible,as to get official papers which cost you £30 you need a date of birth or death to get the correct one ,as they wont give money back if they get the wrong william watson,thanks everyone you've a tried what you could and i appreciate that a lot :)

The Enlistment Register might provide more information. In the current situation it's either with the RWF Museum archive in Wrexham or with the RWF Museum library in Bodelwyddan Castle.

John

i will check them thanks,altough i wrote to one museum and they where moving of place and they told me to wright to them in a few months,i have cricket pics of him do you think that maybe they had team names that might help?i cant upload them here i will try in my album

still no luck no wonder my father says he will die without knowing,i need a date of birth death date of william watson,if not i cant order for his official papers,somebody must know him or family member if he had kids there might be a possiblitiy there is another watson here ..help

Its quite difficult Ernest, assuming he was born in South Wales, Richard Ward supplied two possibles for you. I've emailed the owner of a family tree on Ancestry, in which a William C Watson of Glamorgan appears. However I've not had a response. I've also messaged a contact at the museum.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard Ward

These are my favourite contenders so far :

WATSON William C Pontypridd Glamorganshire 1910
WATSON William C Neath Glamorganshire 1911

Do we have any names of other members of the family to work with?

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You could apply for the most likely ones birth and death cert. Then apply for Williams record using that detail and see what you get back. Yes you may lose £30, but at least you will have tried.

At least one of Richards possibles have died:

Attachment 3136

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard Ward

These are my favourite contenders so far :

WATSON William C Pontypridd Glamorganshire 1910
WATSON William C Neath Glamorganshire 1911

Do we have any names of other members of the family to work with?

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http://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gif

http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Overse...raltarWW1.html rwf death dates are here maybe thought it might be of use here

Thanks Ernest.

Can someone supply Ernests fathers first names and year of birth. Also Williams wifes names.I tried FreeBMD but all variations on Annita/Anuita don't appear for marriages.Also FreeBMD is very busy today so painful searches! Does Ernest know if they married abroad?

Can he supply anything about his grandparents? Perhaps I have missed th original question. Using BMD is a very good way of tracing backwards.
In 1912 the registers started to add the mothers surname to birth records.

There is mention of a sister born about 2 years before or after.What is her first name? I now see that it was his mother-so need her name/s and his fathers year of birth.

The most information to start with would be given by William and Anitas marriage certificate.This should give both their fathers names and occupations and then we can look up again in 1911 census. If any other siblings names are known or the death dates of William and Anita that will give clues.I hope that this helps! I am prepared to do look ups if more info is supplied.

I cannot see how to save this message so that I can search the thread.I highlighted and copied and then pasted back which saved alot of time.

Sue

hi my grandmothers name was anna ignacio she didnt have time to marry my grandfather a he got deployed to india and then china-hongkong etc,when my dad was a baby basicly,my dads name is william ignacio as he wasnt in gib on that time for my dads birth certificate thats why everything is very compilicated,all i have is what you can read in this forum and photos i have on my profile and that letter that was send to my grandmother by the rwf office telling her he had moved place,i really wish i knew more

Thanks Sue, all help is gratefully received. To clarify:

1/ I don't think William and Anuita were married. Can you confirm Ernest?

2/ You need the name of Williams mother?…or Ernest's mother? Can you confirm please Sue.

I have access to Ancestry, so we can also utilise that.

Thanks again

Al

Quote:

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Originally Posted by susanjane

Can someone supply Ernests fathers first names and year of birth. Also Williams wifes names.I tried FreeBMD but all variations on Annita/Anuita don't appear for marriages.Also FreeBMD is very busy today so painful searches! Does Ernest know if they married abroad?

Can he supply anything about his grandparents? Perhaps I have missed th original question. Using BMD is a very good way of tracing backwards.
In 1912 the registers started to add the mothers surname to birth records.

There is mention of a sister born about 2 years before or after.What is her first name? I now see that it was his mother-so need her name/s and his fathers year of birth.

The most information to start with would be given by William and Anitas marriage certificate.This should give both their fathers names and occupations and then we can look up again in 1911 census. If any other siblings names are known or the death dates of William and Anita that will give clues.I hope that this helps! I am prepared to do look ups if more info is supplied.

I cannot see how to save this message so that I can search the thread.I highlighted and copied and then pasted back which saved alot of time.

Sue

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We need any dates or names that can be supplied but it doesn't sound too hopeful.

Have you tried photos and an item in Welsh newspapers OR in a Genealogy Magazine.He has a distinctive face.It seems highly likely that he married again and forgot about his young son.

He presumably served again in WW2 unless he became a coal miner or seaman.Would his Service Records carry on from RWF to any new Regiment?

Unless he managed to change his identity-not easy with wartime beaurocracy-then his death or marriage might be findable on FreeBMD.
Sue

I see that the letter to Anna was dated early in 1938 and says that he has left the RWF and is on the Army Reserve.Presumably still at the beck and call of RWF because he is also said to be still on their strength until 1941.

Re the death of William Christopher Watson aged 49 in Dec 1960 in Birmingham-I have found his will where he leaves his wife as executor.He left £9,000 -quite a tidy sum in those days.They married in Jun quarter 1939 when he would have been 28. His age fits in with the West Bromwich birth and 1911 census.His parents were only 21 -a hairdresser-and 20 but married 3 years and with 2 living children.Only W C aged 2 months is shown though. I checked their marriage and found mention of his mother on some genealogy sites.Which I can try to follow up if needed.
My father entered the Guards aged about 15/16 in about 1930.Might Watson have entered similiarly?After serving with Essex Police in 1930's my father went back into the Guards in 1940 then after commissioning he went into RASC. The trail might be similiar.But why join the RWF unless there was some family link to Wales.
Of course the RWF might have been recruiting in Birmingham and he joined up then.Are there any Recruitment drive documents ?I believe one of you mentioned Enlistment Rolls.

I wonder whether Anna said that she had a child and the Adjutant who replied was covering up for him.Did the family actually manage to find him in Swansea at that address and then he disappeared?I imagine that they wrote at least.Then no reply?

Sue

Hi
There is a strong Welsh Presence in Birmingham. as this link shows

http://www.birminghamwelsh.org.uk/

I know that a lot of Welsh went to the Cities for work my Fathers family are from Lansanan, Denbighshire. But he was born Liverpool. So i do not find it odd that Men from that area would join the RWF.


ivor

Birmingham always had a strong presence in the RWF. In 1914, about 20% of the Regulars were Brummies.

The Enlistment Register, property of the RWF Museum but probably now in the care of the Wrexham Museum archivist, starts in 1920 or thereabouts. It will provide some basic information about William Christopher Watson.

John

Thanks John and Ivor--that explains why a Brummy might be in the RWF.

I have started to see if WC 's father William Joseph was a War casualty or has a MIC.He was only 21 in 1911 census.

I forgot to add that there are several children born between 1940 and 1956, possibly to the William C and his wife who married in 1939 , but none in Birmingham. I used fathers name Watson and the mothers maiden name.I also tried to follow them up on BMD but haven't got anywhere.I would think that there are up to 3 different marriages with those 2 surnames.Or they moved around a lot!

Sue

Wouldn't it be worthwhile looking at the Swansea area first? As per the address in the 1939 letter. It might be a red herring, but worth a punt. We have a man who fits from Neath:

Attachment 3146

Yes I agree-- but I decided to try the Wills and Probate section on Ancestry and came up with the/a Birmingham William Christopher Watson so researched that line.
I have now looked at the 1911 census for Neath and come up with 2 families who might have added to their family in late 1911. I also looked at Watson and Jones Marriages from 1900.Only his birth cert will help us.

I think that the enlistment Registers should be the next research.Some of you might be able to do that!

Sue

im really sorry i cant help with dates wish i could,tomorrow i will pop in again to my dads to see if he remembers anything else,i have a photo with a few names written behind of friends of him,but i cant post it here it doesnt let me