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Hi my name is Norman Davies.
I'm looking for any trace of my GGrand father, whom I believe was in the 2nd Battalion RWF. I think he got married in Pekin in 1902, to a nurse named Elizabeth Rollo. They then moved to India, where my Granddad was born. We know nothing of his birth date or place of birth, so any info' would be much appreciated.
Regards Norman
There is a 4718 Pte A Davies on the China Medal Roll. The number indicates enlistment in c.1895. That's all I can find.
John
Hi Norman welcome:
Obviously I don't know what you have already located. The details of the marriage in China in 1902 can be found here:
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/
Search in the military records(Armed Forces Marriages) using the surnames only Rollo/Davies
To view the record you will need to pay a small charge, once you have the detail, you can apply online for the Marriage Cert. Its possible his army service number will be included.
If he was 2nd Bn and indeed ended up in India with the 2nd Bn, you are in luck. He would served with Frank Richards RWF. Who wrote of his experiences with the 2nd Battalion in India during this time in a book called "Old Soldier Sahib" Its an excellent book, especially if you have family serving at the same time. Link below:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Old-Soldier-.../dp/1843425580
Hope this helps
Hi All
Thanks very much for the info. I'll give them both a try. I'll let you know how I get on.
All I know is that he had joined "Assam Bengal Railway Volunteer Rifles". But I don't know at what time. I have a picture of him and all the officers dated 1910. He was a sergt major then.
Regards Norman
Hi AP1
I have got the book to read. Have looked on findmy past, but can only look at the index of the returns, this as you say lists A Davies marrying E Rollo 1902, record is on page 216.
How do I get to page 216?
Regards Norman
Can you copy n paste the entire entry onto here please Norman? With the detail that Findmypast provide, you should be able to apply online via the General Records Office for their marriage certificate.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/c...es/default.asp
Hi Norman,
Using the detail alongside the entry for Alfred Davies's Marriage in Pekin. You can go to the General Records Office website and order the marriage certificate online. It costs about £10 I think. It should be delivered within 7-10 days. You will need to register on the site before you order. The website address is: https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/c...es/default.asp
Before you order, please read the information below provided in the "Help" area of the findmypast website: Good luck Norman, please give us an update as you progress.
Ordering overseas certificates:
Once you have correctly identified the person you are looking for using the Overseas Records index, you can order the certificate.
Make a record of all the details that you find in the index, including
As the original documents are not available to the public, the copy of the certificate is your primary link back to your ancestors.
- the district,(PEKIN)
- volume (Army Returns - Marriages 1901-1905)
- page number (216)
- the year if the data is available (1902)
But be warned, each new copy is largely freshly made and while every effort will be taken by the General Register Office to ensure the information is correct, an error in the transcription may creep in. If the original data is too difficult to read, GRO staff will hand write the certificate. If you receive a handwritten certificate, but want to see an original signature too, then in some cases (depending on the document) you may be able to have a photocopy as well.
Simply use this site to search for index numbers for certificates and apply online (registered users only).
Once you have signed-in, found the records you are looking for and recorded the index data, go to the "order a certificate" page to order online. Please note that applications for certificates of overseas birth, death or marriage certificates can be made by post, by fax, by telephone or online using a secure ordering service.
Delivery: Overseas certificates are usually produced within five working days. For copies of certification for marriages that have taken place in countries overseas, please allow 7 to 10 working days.
Thank you very much. I give it a try. Will let you know how I get on
Norman
Hi, I'm Norman's cousin who has joined in on the search for Alfred. I've attached a copy of the marriage certificate, but unfortunately it does not seem to contain his service number. How would we go about finding out any information on him that may be held in military records?
Regards,
Brenda
Attachment 2499
As I said in an earlier post, all I can find is a Pte A Davies 4718 on the 1900 China Medal Roll. That may be your Alfred Davies, but as only half the 2nd Bn received the China Medal he may well have belonged to the other half - which would explain the wrong rank of 4718 Davies. But then again, the number would be about right for a man born in 1876 and joining up when aged 18 or 19.
On the other hand, for a man with seven years service to reach the rank of Sergeant is unusual, although it is not impossible - Sgt Boreham did it in six years. Alfred Davies may have been, like Boreham, a very capable man.
I have checked the Great War Medal Index Cards and the surviving service and pension records on Ancestry, but found no trace of him. He may have served with another regiment, in which case it will be very difficult to find him on Ancestry. He may even have remained in India, at least for the Great War period.
Since many service and pension records were destroyed n the Blitz, the chances of finding him are almost nil. You could give the RWF Museum a try. Brian Owen, the Curator, will do what he can, but I don't think he will come up with any more than this.
John
Welcome Brenda.
This is an unusual thread. Normally John(BaconW) is having to search for a service number in order to track someones service. In this case however we have first class documentation to show that he was with the 2nd Bn at the in Pekin in Oct 1902, but not his service number. Lots of historical information is available about the Boxer Rebellion which ended in 1901, which helps build up a picture of his service. The Marriage Cert also names the SNCO's who acted as the witnesses, another line worth following, just to see what happened to them as their service progressed. I assume they were Alfred's friends.
John, would I be correct in saying that his lack of a China Medal means he may have arrived after the Boxer Rebellion ended in 1901 or is there errors on the medal roll? Could he have possibly been with the 1st Bn in South Africa?
Then he moves to India with the 2nd Bn. Again, because of Frank Richards and his book "Soldier Sahib" you have a first class account of life for Alfred, in the very battalion that he was serving with, whilst he was there. If you can get a copy of the updated version of the book(somebody have a link?) that would be useful as many more names are mentioned in the book, plus loads of interesting research is included on the characters mentioned by Richards.
Finally you have his time with the Assam Bengal Railway Volunteer Rifles. That is another route of interest. I'm not really sure what happened to Indian Army Records, but an exciting route for you to follow and research.
I think it would be well worth contacting the RWF museum to see if they can assist. I would also suggest a visit to the RWF museum which is located within the grounds of Caernarfon Castle. I'm pretty sure they have an audio recording made in the 1950's of an old soldier from the 2nd Bn recounting his experiences of the rebellion, which was an extremely bloody affair. Besides that, a visit will give you a clearer picture of service in those times with the regiment.
Lots to look at and who know's, his number may yet still appear.
Keep us posted on this please.
Thanks
Quite correct, Al. Only four companies of 2nd RWF took part in the campaign to relieve the Pekin legation. The other four arrived later and only served with the Army of Occupation (as we would now call it) - no gongs for them!Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1
Good idea to check the South Africa Medal Roll. I did, and it doesn't help much. Eight men named A Davies, ten if we add AG and AP Davies. Only one is not a Pte, L/Sgt AG Davies 2451, but his number is far too low and indicates attestation in 1890-91. And again we can't be sure that it is the wrong man either: what if he joined as a drummer boy? Lowest age allowed was 14 years, which reasoning from the number might indicate birth year 1876, which would be about correct....
Of the other SA candidates, only Ptes A Davies 4223 and 4555 and Pte AP Davies 2527 (if enlisted as a boy) might qualify. The numbers of the others are too high for Sergeant's rank in 1902.
The only argument against a 1st Bn transfer is that as far as I know the first men transferred from the 1st to the 2nd Bn did not arrive until the 2nd Bn was in India.
In short, as I sometimes helpfully remark at the end of a post, 'Take your pick'.
Of the witnesses, C/Sgt Harry Yates 1880 (Ashton-under-Lyne, 3 May 1868) was the 2nd Bn Quartermaster in the Great War. He enlisted May 1878 and was promoted L/Cpl Jan 1889. In Jan 1912 he became Hon Lt and QM and was promoted Hon Capt in June 1917. He retired in 1920. And he did not qualify for the China Medal. C/Sgt E Jones was probably the Sgt Jones 3866 whose name is on the China MR.
As for the Assam Bengal Railway, it was not unusual for Time Expired men to remain in India and take a job with the railways. See Old Soldier Sahib. And by the way, the annotated edition of Old Soldier Sahib is completely sold out. I do have the text available as a pdf file, without the photos.
John
Wow! Harry Yates!!! I certainly know that name from "The War The Infantry Knew". My guess is that Sgt Davies name will appear in the Wrexham archives, but thats unlikely to happen until after digitisation.
Here's my daily "Wild stab in the dark".........Norman mentioned he has a picture of Alfred has a Sgt Maj. I wonder if its best dress, with ribbons showing? That may help to date his service better. I know its clutching at straws, but you never know?
Yes, Harry Yates was quite a character. At one time he ran the soda water factory at Agra. Freemason too, I believe.
The photo is a good idea, although I do not expect much of it. At best it will show the ribbon of the China medal (yellow-red-yellow).
I have a copy of Nick Lock's article on the China campaign somewhere, will look for it. Would be good for the Vault.
John
Lots to think about there! As always there are about thirty avenues to try. I've attached a copy of the photo of Alfred in the Assam Bengal Volunteer Rifles, taken in 1910. The names didn't scan, but Alfred is second from the left on the back row. I would appreciate your comments on it.
I have bought a copy of Old Soldier Sahib, it's a bit of an eye-opener! The copy I have contains no photos though, would this be an older edition?
Brenda
Attachment 2503
Back row: Col Sergt Inst A. Scott, Sergt Major A. Davies, Col Sergt Inst H. Jones, Col Sergt Inst C.H. Memmett;
Front row: Capt and Offg Adjutant C.H.O.Baker, Lt Col R.S. Hawkins V.D, Lt and Quarter Master J.T.Mawhood.
Your copy of OSS (Old Soldier Sahib) is the standard edition, Brenda. There is also an annotated and illustrated edition, published by D.E. Langley and myself in 2005. It has been out of print for some time, sorry. I had a look at the internet and just now noticed that a copy is for sale at Abebooks for $109.57, which is considerably more than the original price! CQ, however, seems to have a copy left at the more reasonable price of 20 pounds, see http://www.cqout.com/item.asp?id=4642296. If that doesn't work out, your local library should be able to find and lend you a copy.
Thanks for the photo. Alfred has obviously made officer rank, judging by his Sam Browne. The photo is not big enough to say more; the medal looks like the China Medal, but it's hard to make out.
On further reflection, I more and more like L/Sgt AG Davies 2451. Is there any family tradition of Alfred joining the Regt as a boy soldier?
John
Great picture Brenda.
Look more closely at Alfred's lower right arm John. You can see inverted stripes, with possibly a crown or similar above. The guy to his right is also wearing a Sam Browne with Sgt Stripes. I think he is still a ranker. I might ask Richard Ward if he has any info, he doesn't visit much these days, but has an amazing amount of stuff on RWF medal rolls and associated info.
Have had another look at the photo.
Back row: Col Sergt Inst A. Scott, Sergt Major A. Davies, Col Sergt Inst H. Jones, Col Sergt Inst C.H. Memmett;
Front row: Capt and Offg Adjutant C.H.O.Baker, Lt Col R.S. Hawkins V.D, Lt and Quarter Master J.T.Mawhood.
I think I need new specs, Al. I thought it was a fold in the cloth - should have downloaded and enlarged. Still, if you read "warrant officer" instead of officer, I was reasonably close...
Good idea to contact Richard. Pity he only rarely visits the Forum these days.
John
Hi All.
I've been searching Census records and have found that Alfred was a 'Tailors Apprentice' aged 15 in 1891. Does this spoil the drummer boy theory? I've just read the book Old Soldier, very good insight into life of that time.
Norman
It does rather, Norman. Another theory gone.
So. Assuming that he joined as an 18 year old, his number should be between say 4200 and 4500, which is close to the 4718 Davies on the China MR. Of course Alfred may have joined a bit later. But what I find hard to believe is that Davies 4718 was a Pte in 1900 and a Sgt in 1902. This leads me to the inevitable conclusion that he (Alfred) served with one of the companies not involved in the Relief of Pekin[g].
A, C, E and later H Coys did the fighting. Of the other coys, which arrived later, F Coy providing the actual Legation Guard from March 1901. That would probably put Alfred in F Coy, where he would have the opportunity to meet an eligible girl and organise a wedding too. Unfortunately I do not have an F Coy muster roll so cannot prove the presence of an A Davies with a number in the expected range and a rank high enough (Cpl or better L/Sgt) to make his presence as a Sgt in 1902 believable.
John
I hate to throw a spanner in the works, but our uncle has a sword which belonged to Alfred and which came, I believe, from the Boer War. I don't think it carries any inscription, but I'll try to get a photo posted so that you can have a look.
I have also instructed the GRO to conduct a search for Alfred's birth certificate, so then we can confirm whether the Alfred you found in the census, Norman is actually our Alfred.
The GRO indexes are quite tricky because you can't tell from them what the father's name was, they only list the births in alphabetical order for each quarter of the year. Since the marriage cert showed his age as 26y 4m on the 7th Oct 1902, I have asked them to search for an Alfred Davies, whose father was Charles, with a birth date in the second and third quarters of 1876. It would have been so much easier if we'd had an exact birth date.
Brenda
Here's the sword! It has what appears to be a snakeskin handle, and a brass rivet at the top of the blade, which could have the maker's stamp on it, but it is indecipherable.
I would value the comments of all you military historians.
Brenda
No dates on the other side of the sword Brenda or markings?
These guys should be able to date it for you.
http://www.swordforum.com
Looking at other pics, it clearly british. I found an officers one from 1892 with a similar hilt, but the basket was different. Let us now how you get on.
Thanks
No other markings of any kind I'm afraid.
Hi, one of the guys from the sword forum reckons that the sword is an 1821 pattern sword that would have been most likely issued to an NCO in the artillery. I'm not really sure where to go with that information :-)
Another thing that I have heard from a few relatives is that Alfred changed the spelling of his surname from Davis to Davies. I don't know how much truth there is to that rumour, but the marriage certificate showed the surname of Alfred and his father Charles both being Davies.
I'll keep you informed of anything else I come up with.
Regards,
Brenda
I think the sword may be a red herring. It's very possibly something Alfred has picked up during his service, soldiers are notorious hoarders of bits of kit that are "shiny shiny". If you can kill someone with it, even better :-) Or....He was a Warrant Officer during his India service, its possible the sword was used in conjunction with that.
Yes, I did wonder if he had "liberated" it from somewhere. Think. I'll have to concentrate on the stuff I know for sure.
I still have a couple of elderly relatives to try, so I'll continue the search for photos, silverware, or ideally some confirmation of his service number.
I'll keep you informed of my progress.
Many thanks for your help and advice so far.
B
Hi
I am also searching for information on Alfred Davies - and his wife, Elizabeth ROLLO, on behalf of myself and my cousin in Canada, Walter G.
Elizabeth was my great aunt.
I have been in contact with Brian Owens at the museum.
I had actually ordered a copy of their marriage certificate when I came across this thread.
I had also applied to the Army Personnel Centre in Glasgow with the 4718 service number - on spec - but with little luck. I had used the wrong form! And they didn't recognize the service number.
I will try to attach the one photo I have of Alfred and Beth. Brian Owens has identified the uniform as a NCO's uniform of the RWF as the sash is over the right shoulder.
I have located birth details of 2 of Alfred and Elizabeth's children - both born in India.
My cousin thought Elizabeth was a missionary in China when they met. Given she was Scottish, this may be correct given the era. Strange that neither occupation is listed on the marriage certificate.
Hope to hear more.
cheers
Bob
I'm not surprised the Army Personnel Centre could not find him, Bob. They deal with post-1920 records exclusively. The National Archives in Kew would be the place to look, in fact I did so online just now, and there is no trace of Alfred Davies 4718 (if he is indeed the Alfred Davies you are looking for) in either the service records or the pension records. No Medal Index Card either.
John
Great photo Bob.
Alfred and Elizabeth had three children, as far as I'm aware they were all born in India. Their second son, Ian Llewellyn was my grandfather and their daughter Muriel Jean was Walter's mother.
The GRO has no record of an Alfred Davies, born between 1 April - 30 Sept 1876, whose father was Charles, so I have now instructed a search for the name Davis instead. Will let you know how I get on.
Brenda
Hi John
The APC was a long shot based on the only service number I knew - would have only worked if Alfred had continued to serve after 1920. 4718 was from the Peking medal roll. Based on this forum he was out of the RWF by 1910. So would Kew have his records with discharge from RWF? Who would have records of service in Assam..Rifles?
cheers
Bob
Brenda, looking for Davis might be an idea. But there is no Davis on either the China or South Africa Medal Roll, and the photo you posted says "Davies", so I would not hold my breath.
Bob, the pre-1920 service and pension records are held at the National Archives, Kew. They can be consulted online through Ancestry.co.uk. But I looked, and there is no trace of a 4718 Davies. Many records were destroyed in the Blitz, either by the Luftwaffe or the London Fire Brigade, so it's not really surprising.
As for the Assam Bengal Volunteer Rifles records, I really have no idea. Sorry. You could perhaps try the Indian Army (http://www.armedforces.nic.in/ or http://www.indian-military.org/). They might be able to point you in the right direction, but once again I wouldn't hold my breath.
John
It is possible (I hope) that his birth was registered as Davis, but that he enlisted as Davies. We'll see if GRO comes back with anything in the next couple of weeks.
He won 2 cups that I know of during his time with the Volunteer Rifles: Norman has one, the Kellner Cup, I have Googled it but didn't get any results; I am in the process of tracking down the other cup, I know it does (or did) exist, but I haven't seen it yet.
Alfred fathered another child, Hugh Alexander Davies, in 1918ish. I don't know where Hugh was born, but he lived in Coventry latterly. I should search for Hugh's birth certificate, but I'm doubtful that Alfred's name would be on it.
I'll keep you posted.
Regards,
Brenda
Hi All, I have written to Kellner wine merchants in India regarding the cup. Still waiting for a reply. I'm in the the process of planning a trip to Kew, but reading John's comment, it may be a waste of time. John would Caernarfon Castle be a better bet? Brenda I'll also try and find Hugh Alexander. Great photo Bob. We'll have to get in touch.
Norman
Best to begin with the Museum, Norman. If you send a request for information to the Curator (rwfusiliers@callnetuk.com) he'll pass it on to the three volunteer researchers who work in the archives at Kings Mill, Wrexham. They are very experienced (I know them) and will also be able to access the National Archives information to give you a very good idea of the success to be expected from an expedition to Kew.
As far as I know, Bob (Rivers52) has already been in touch with the Museum, so do not expect sudden new floods of information. If it ain't there, it ain't there. And do bear in mind that the 4718 identification is by no means certain. The only thing we can be sure of is that 4718's name was A Davies. There was probably at least one other A Davies in the 2nd Bn who arrived too late in China to qualify for the gong and get his name on the Medal Roll.
Good hunting, all the same!
John
Hi,
I have a post on rootschat looking for more information on the elusive Alfred. Their first suggestion was Pte 4718, then I was advised to check out service numbers 6045, 2090, and 5309 who served in South Africa. Do you think that any of those three are likely to be our Alfred?
Norman, do you think Hugh was born in Wales? There was a Hugh A Davies born in Bala, Merionethshire, registered in Sept 1817 Vol 11b Pg 532.
Brenda
I do not think much of the rootschat suggestions, I'm afraid. Davies 2090 had no initial that I know of, could have been A, could have been anything . Davies 5309 was W(illiam?}. Davis 6046 was indeed A Davies but served on the Tugela (as did 5309) and could not well have been in two places at the same time.
Another reason: the drafts from South Africa, available because of the end of hostilities there, only began to join 2 RWF in India, long after the Bn had left China.
Davies 2090 could not have joined later than 1888. He is not on the SA Medal Roll but is in a list of Mentions in Despatches for the Boer War. We know nothing else about him.
W Davies 5309 would have joined c.1897.
A Davies 6046 would have joined 1899.
Service or pension records there are none.
John