Regimental Association Standard

Please see attached a draft drawing of the proposed Regimental Association Standard.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
As discussed at The Royal Welsh Branch Secretaries meeting on Saturday 30<SUP>th</SUP> January, the standard will not include any further numbering or crests/badges. There is scope to have the lettering in gold as opposed to black or white but feedback on this is welcomed.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
As you will appreciate, time and cost is not on our side, so any comments would need to be submitted sooner rather than later. Please feel free to disseminate to your respective Branch members.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
As always, should you have any queries or suggestions, please feel free to contact me.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Please Note: Bridgend & District Branch has been used only for illustration purposes.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Regards<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Richard<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Richard Tuffney<o:p></o:p>
Assistant Regimental Secretary<o:p></o:p>
RHQ The Royal Welsh<o:p></o:p>
Maindy Barracks, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Cardiff</st1:City>, <st1:PostalCode w:st="on">CF14 3YE</st1:PostalCode></st1:place> <o:p></o:p>
ATN: 94355 8395<o:p></o:p>
Civ: 02920 781395<o:p></o:p>
www.theroyalwelsh.org.uk<o:p></o:p>
www.army.mod.uk/royalwelsh

<o:p></o:p>

Same old story................GREEN!!!!

Of the two regiments, who is the senior, but it feels to that we (The Royal Welch Fusiliers) are the junior. Onxce again, this has caused the the ugly head to rise again.

Other that the Red Dragon, what else is on the standard belonging to the Royal Welch Fusiliers.

The Colour is of the Standard is GREEN and the Red Dragon is Red, with the reef of imortel behind it.

Will this type standard apply to all the Comrades associations that arwe currently in existance (i.e. RWF and RRW), or will it only apply to branches that will change to the New Regioment?

Bridgend is traditionally a recruiting area for the Royal Regiment of Wales. So what if the main colour is GREEN! The Red Dragon takes centre stage and remains rampant. For goodness sake lads its time to let go, move on, support the new regiment and bathe in the glory that was The Royal Welch Fusiliers, The South Wales Borderers and The Welsh Regiment.

sorry everyone dont like nothing= :no:`1RWF,on this it,s all 2 Royal welsh or is:mad: it? help :cry::smile:

I agree with Gwyn lets go forward 1&2 Royal welsh both support and are proud of the dragon like we all are..Don't divide the country with this north and south businesses..it was done many years ago by an english king who only spoke French.

Hello Richjones,
I suppose a lot of people take issue with the so called north and south divide. But one hell of a lot of south and mid Walians over many years have enlisted in the old Royal Welch Fusiliers not least are those of course are the much maligned National Servicemen, of whom I have the greatest respect for, and like all RWF men who served King/ Queen and country with the utmost loyalty and fortitude at all times. And further more on a personal basis I have a great affection for all things RWF and found that both north and south Walians were friends at all times. It never was comparable to the great American divide that took place in the Americam civil war, and I do not think the expression north and south should have much credibility in matters apertaining to the RWF I also take the point about moving on with the new formation. As a point of interest the old second battalion R.W.F.in the Great war were known as "The Birmingham Fusiliers" as mentioned in David Langley's book "Duty Done" a definitive book on the old second battalion RWF.
Regards RBD aka jungle1810
Regards to all my readers RBD aka jungle1810

Just another case of the RRW winning at the end of the day (green background, wreath of imortel), we have lost almost everything that is the Royal Welch Fusiliers, and as the most senior regiment in Wales any changes should reflect that

I think that this is amost rubber stamped as the Regimental Association Standard (just letting us know in advance that this is what it WILL look like)

Gentlemen, I have seen the design for the new Standard for the "Duke of Lancaster's Regiment" as it affects Fleetwood and there is no number written on it. As this was "King's Own Borderers", I have no idea if they are happy or unhappy with what has been suggested but I do know that no-one can ever take our memories away, irrespective of which regiment we served with. So let us all accept the inevitable inflicted upon us by those in Whitehall whose knowledge of ALL Infantry regiments and their proud traditions is nil. It is surely up to us to retain and maintain such history.
Apologies if anyone thinks this is a rant, but even though it was only 6 months, I was in Honiton with you.

I agree with gwyn (and that does bug me)lol time to let go we all know who we are and was, but changes have happend like it or not time to move on

Hi Everyone
It appears that "The Cat has been let out of the Bag" No doubt this topic will be the talking point both at the RWFCA Executive meeting and annual secretaries meeting this year.

I think we are going to have to accept change (only my personal view) As for the "senior regiment in Wales" is the Royal Welsh it? you ask yourselves? ( bearing in mind when the merger took place on the 1st March 2006 a new large Infantry Regiment of Wales was formed) as with the green, RWF/RRW, North/South fiasco this forum has been down that road before, so let us wait with baited breath and see what comes from the RWFCA meetings and see if we go to the "Ball" or not.

Best Regards
BennytheBall
Branch Hon Secretary Shotton and Deeside RWFCA

This has been a very difficult and emotive subject which I feel has been once again been driven from RHQ RW (Cardiff) without the consultation of the various groups who are and would be involved vis-a-vis RWFCA, RRW, Welch Regt Assoc and SWB.
What RHQ fails to understand is those people who are the active members of this new association are CIVLIANS and are no longer subject to the exingences of military law.....perhaps they might well be reminded of that!
I will say however from a totally biased standpoint that hey guys we have the RWFCA which is at present a strong bond of men who served pre-2006 in the oldest infantry regiment in Wales. This new association banner is about those who served after our time. It's the Association they may well have an affinity to.
As long as RHQ understands this, and accepts that there is and still will be a diverse membership (as above) that will have a life for decades to come then as long as we are treated equitably then we can all live together, after all as an association we did chip in £25k to start their fund!

Hingey

I must say in my 22 yrs in the Royal Welch I never found a North South divide in fact a I had many very good friends from both ends of the country, and still do there was banter as you would get with choice of football teams, the only man I found slightly divided was Tom Sal from the early seventies period,and it was Tom's humor, Royal Welch we where and are a family.

Regards the Regimental Association Standard I agree that it seems a done deal and this period is to air gripes in a cooling off period prior to launch!

As mentioned earlier by a member can you confirm does this RA standard replace our present RA standard - if so

Personally I believe although we must move on I feel we should not forget and the Association at present serves ex RWF servicemen and the Standard should reflect that and until the association is top heavy with ex Welsh Regiment it should not be changed - But I am a traditionalist which may not fit with Whitehall values?

But hey its seems a done deal - How do the Standard bearers feel?

No Deal Yet!


That's my bit

Unless you've served as a member of the Royal Welsh, it is of no consequence what your views are. It belongs to The Royal Welsh. Those guys fighting in Afghanistan will in years to come gather proudly around their standard on reunions, funerals and Remembrance Sunday. Just as we do now with our standard.

So yes we may be unhappy with the design or colour. But its not our standard. It belongs to the guys who followed us.

Thats my view.

Hi Barry
If or When the RWFCA come under the banner of the Royal Welsh Comrades' Association which is going to be formally launched on the 10th June 2010 then everyone will have the said standard as their Association Standard and the RWFCA Standard will cease to be.

Again, IF or WHEN the RWFCA come under the banner of the Royal Welsh CA every branch will be issue with their new standard with that branches name embosed on it.

Best Regards
BennytheBall

Totally agree with you AL, let us "old uns" give all our support to the younger members of the Regiment we HAD"our day" We all seen it, done it and worn the Tshirt.

Best Regards
BennytheBall

Totaly aggree with Al,
I belong to the RWFCA not the RWA so I dont think I should comment one way or the other, the people that it will have an effect on will be the present day soldier and those who wish to join the RWA, good luck to them all.
Joe.

I agree it will be the RW Association eventually and have no problems with that, But we are all entitled to our view not matter what the consequence if only to serve as our view at the time, its a discussion forum, and if as I have now been informed that the changes will take place this June (Thanks Benny) then fine so should the RA Standard change then

But will the old RA Standards be kept in remembrance of the RWF Association of which I am apart of, I am proud of our boys in Afgan too but that is not the issue.

When ever the Standard is on Parade I will be proud to see it in place, its Royal Welsh (1st Bn The RWF) is it not!

Ive been over to the rwa to ask more about the new standard and the reason for the back ground of the standard is because that is the regt colour of the royal welsh be it 1st 2nd or 3rd bn, that being the way ahead, and nothing to do with the rrw,when i stand back and think about it ok, as it is the royal welsh now, but i know us of the 23rd will never forget who we are, we still have our badges and ties to say who we are, so guys lets go with the times.

Now that all has been explained, I am inclined to say yes to the new standard; I served in the Royal Welch Fusiliers and not the RW. I agree with Al, the standard is for the current members of the Royal Welsh; whether they are in Afgan or in Tidworth.

My only hope is that the RWF CA will not have to change their standards.

Im sorry to say mate that day will most probily come but not to soon i hope

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by benney

Im sorry to say mate that day will most probily come but not to soon i hope

---

It should not happen whilst there are Royal Welchman alive !!!!!!!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bertie Ball 01

It should not happen whilst there are Royal Welchman alive !!!!!!!!!

---

Your problems are small in comparison to current serving members who spent time in both Regiments. I served 18 years as a Royal Welchman and the last 4 in the Royal Welsh. I have a few years left to serve before I become a branch member but I can forsee that even then this topic will still be popular. Opinions are for all to voice I just hope people remember that regardless of the changes we have endured were still the same lads from the same towns with the same pride in our Regiment.

Times they are certainly changing, and being a younger veteran (not quite 65) I respect all the past history and traditions of our regiments. As one that was personally affected by the merger of SWB & Welch in 1969, I can understand both sides of this debate. The Standard Bearers of all Associations do a very public service for which they deserve the most praise - often in all weathers. Collectively The Royal Welsh has got a tremendous amount of historic endeavour and let us educate the younger generations of that. I've said locally and in other places that there could now be 5 Blazer Badges on show at reunions - and we are all proud to wear them.

I am glad i spent the best years of my life in the Royal Welch Fusiliers with some great mates and characters,i did moan etc on the merger ,but with the subject rearing its head again with the unveiling of the new Regimental Association Standard ,i think we should remember what we had fondly, and give our backing to the new Regimental Association Standard and forget wether its green black or blue,just as we have given our backing to the Royal welsh 1st and 2nd Battalions.

Hello Everyone

I had a long drawn out discussion about this topic just the other day with Capt Des Williams now Assistant Regimental Secretary Royal Welsh in Wrexham and Association Secretary RWFCA, He attended the Royal Welsh annual secreteries meeting in Cardiff some 2 weeks ago and at that meeting there were some branch secretaries of both Associations RRW/RWF. The cards were laid on the table then, by Gen Roddy Porter Col of the Regt, Royal Welsh, stating that in laymans terms if the RWFCA don't come under the banner of the new Royal Welsh Association then the RWFCA will not be invited to the party in June.

He also stated that if the RWFCA do come under the new Royal Welsh Association Then RWFCA Branches will have their names embosed on the new branch standard RWA for example My Branch would be titled (The Royal Welsh Comrades' Association, The Royal Welch Fusiliers, Shotton and Deeside Branch. )

All aspects of RWFCA will be kept the same, the wearing of RWF Regtl Ties and blaizer badges the wearing of the dark beret and hackle and even our yearly reunion at wrexham.

I personally now think it is time for change because if we don't the RWFCA "Twig" will wither and eventualy die, by going under the Royal Welsh Banner but still keeping our own identity as RWF members' and branches, the new Royal Welsh Association will water the dying "Twig" and keep us alive as RWF Comrades', we will have the best of both worlds so to say, it may increase our branch membership in years to come and believe me recruiting for the branches have never been so difficult,hopefully, we will get some young blood into our ranks.

One final note on branch standards, under the new RWA Association when on parade branches will have to carry the Royal Welsh Comrades' Branch Standard but the RWF Branches can choose to keep their own RWFCA branch standard for branch members funerals etc.

I for one as a RWFCA branch Hon Secretary feel now is the time for change and to get encompassed into the newRoyal Welsh Comrades' Association to keep "watering" our glorious RWF traditions of which once was a our great Regiment. I as a Volunteer Custiodian in the RWF Musuem at Caernarfon get ask numerous times by "Joe Public" "Where are the RWF now"? My answer to them is here at the Musuem, but if you are asking about the 1st Bn Royal Welsh (The Royal Welch Fusiliers) then that is a different matter and go in great depth to explain it.

I know some members out there will ask what about our RWFCA funds, Des has assured everyone, that this will be discussed at the RWFCA Executive and Annual Secretaries meetings in great detail.

Its not all "Doom and Gloom" I dont think. Rest assured it is not the end of the RWF Comrades or RWF traditions.

So lets get rid of the "them and Us" syndrome and come together as one big "family" and see what lies ahead.

I'll probably get a phone call in the not too distant future from RHQ for letting the "cat out of the bag" and this forum is a freedom of speech forum and I felt for one now was the time to let the "cat out of the bag" (Sorry RHQ Cardiff and sorry DES Williams I hope I haven't spoke out of turn).

I'll get off my "soap box" now.

Best Regards to all

BennytheBall
A Royal Welch Fusilier

Ps: There was no-one more upset about the merger and the colour green than me, but I have now come to terms (perhaps its old age) with it and that that change has to happen to keep us alive.

Again Benny thanks a million for your insider information...because that's what it is, information and actions that have been carried out on a need to know basis without consultation with US the members of the respective associations. I must respectfully remind these serving officers, once again, if it were not for the comrades the association would not exist. We should be consulted not delivered a fait accompliwhich seems to be the case as your information lays out.
I fully understand that we need to move on. We a grown men who have an identity and would like some input into how the individual history's we've all been part of are remembered by fellow comrades in the future.
I hope that Gen Porter and the Regimental Committee sit up and take note of what is being said here and deliver some sort of equitable outcomes we can all sign-up to!

Hingey

Paul I agree with your sentiments fully, I expect that the "Jungle Drums" are beating in the higher echelons of both Associatons at this present time and decissions have already probably be made or discussed and it will take time to filter down to us foot soldiers Keep watching this space

Best Wishes
Fellow RWF Comrade
BennytheBall

Benny and Paul while i take on board both your views. WE at Aber have a Standard we are proud of its RWF. However this new controversy means we as a branch will have two standards if we go along with this proposal then who? pays for them and secondly who carries them ,not me or my mates who are pushing 70. We are all members of a special unit and supported this military amalgamation, as civilian members our own branches surely our views must be heard. While i still belive that rules were made for the guidance of fools then it must be fools who make them.

Peter
the criteria will be that no 2 standards will be on parade at any one time as for the funding of the new standard Royal Welsh Comrades' Association will fund it.

It appears that I have "ruffled" a lot of people's feathers over this topic may I add that NO decissions have been made as yet until the RWFCA Executive Meeting and the RWFCA Annual Secretaries Meeting 2010, so let us not speculate on this topic at this present time, remember I've only given my personal views on this very sensitive subject.

Best Regards
BennytheBall

hi Lads just a quick one, i'm a south walian who served with 1RWF. When I did my time in the regiment the majority of men were on average 50% from South Wales 40% from the north and the other 10% made up from attachments or other parts of Wales and England. However I am and always will be a Royal Welchman in my heart and mind, but we must remember that the regiment is no longer and must now find time to move forward and let these young men & women who serve in the Royal Welsh be proud of the cap badge they now where. Just remember no one can take away our memories and how proud we were to serve in this one of the finest regiments the british army ever had. So please forum members let this new generation of welshmen and women make their own history and love the regiment they now belong to.

Just an observation,Swansea Branch RWFCA only has 1 member who has served in both the Royal Welch Fusiliers and The Royal Welsh(RWF) having done longer in RWF he proudly wears his RWF Beret,Badge and Hackle and RWF tie
I know of ex SWBs and Welsh Regiment guys who now wear the Royal Welsh tie with their old Regiment Berets.:confused: At the end of the day most on people on the Forum are ex ROYAL WELCH FUSILIERS who are now RWFCA members SO if you have 2/3 Associations marching WHY cant you have each standard flying?

Hello Bertie Ball01,
I take note of your point re the Wreath of Immortelles placed on the colours. This award was given by Qeen Victoria many years after the defence of Rorkes Drift in memory of the brave defence of Rorkes Drift by the Royal Wawickshire regiment's detatchment from "B" company of the 2nd Warwickshire regiment.Further to the work of Childer's and Caldwell who were given the task of sorting out the many differences in the numbering of line regiments in 1881 some 3 years after the defence of Rorkes Drift and to review the issue of flogging of foot soldiers and also to clarify the vexed question of officers purchasing commissions.At best it seems that only between 7 or 11 Welshmen were at the Drift, and they probably went to the Midlands to look for work and being unable to find work enlisted in the Royal Wawickshire regiment All this leaves us in the quandary we are in today.In my opinion this is all due to the use of the word bandied about today namely ANTECEDENT. As a consequence of Childers and Caldwell's efforts some how or other the SWB took over the mantle and title of the 24th of foot. This leaves us today to consider the awards of the V.C.'s inside the new journal Y Cymro, it now lists 43 V.C's won by this so called ANTECEDENT issue. I do not think even the Royal Artillery, The Medical Establishment,( RAMC ) or even the Royal Engineers or Gurkhas can boast of this many V.C's. Of course 16 of these listed V.C's were won by the Royal Wawickshire Regiment.I fully expect some readers may confirm or deny my facts and figures.So over many years the Chinese water torture has gained much momentum in south Wales and many regiments are losing a lot of what they fought for.I am firmly of the opinion that Hingey hit the nail on the head with his view of the new standard issue and all it entails. Pundits reckon you cannot change history. We are seeing it now right in front of our faces. With bravery awards in a state of chaos, and battle Honours being moved about willy nilly.
Regards as ever RBD aka jungle

According to historical records, the 24th of Foot was called the 2nd Warwickshire in 1782 and became known as the South Wales Borderers in 1881. However, the 24th of Foot had their recruiting area changed in 1873 which included Brecon Pembroke and others I'll find when I've found this part of my research. Consequently, in the 6 years prior to Rorke's Drift the number of Welshmen within the 24th would have increased and the total manpower would have been a cross-section of those recruited prior to 1873 and afterwards.
Hindsight often allows a different interpretation of what has been previously published, but I feel it would be wrong to assume that there were just a few Welshmen at Rorke's Drift.
In addition to this thread, I would like anyone to let me know of the small Battle Honours the RWF won over the centuries which are not from the Famous Battles we all know about. As an example, at the front of the "Y Cymro" those that receive this will see listed "ADEN" - a remarkable example, and worthy of being placed in the public domain.
Ianto 73 ex 1 Welch & att 1 RWF 1968

Dear Brian and Ianto 73
Many Thanks for your very informative history articles, but I think people are missing the point on this subject, the question is it now the time for the RWFCA and the RRWCA branches (I know some RRWCA Branches have already done so) to come under the "banner" of the Royal Welsh Comrades' Association?

The example copy of the Royal Welsh Comrades' Association Standard posted by RHQ Cardiff is what the Association and branch standard will look like in answer to some ones question about the wreath of Immortelles and the Red Rampant Dragon (Griffin) which takes centre stage on the standard is the Regimental Crest of the new Regiment The Royal Welsh which formed in 2006 and obvisuosly it was well thought out to represent both Famous regiments of Wales of past. The Welsh Warrior of today has to have a Regimental Crest to give him and her something to feel proud of and to be part of as we did when we served either in the 23rd -24th- 41st/69th.

Here I go again getting on my soap box once more.

I think that this debate is going to linger on for some time?

Best Regards
BennytheBall

I've read this thread long and hard and it seems quite clear to me that RHQ RW and Gen Porter need to give US the Association(s) a briefing paper on their proposal asap. Speculation and supposition creates unrest and I for one want to put our comments and case to them (that is Aberystwyth Branch RWFCA) when I've seen the details and discussed it with the members. I will reiterate once again, we are now civlilians and not under the aegis of military law or singley minded top down management regimes.
We need to be consulted because we are the Association and they would do well to remember that!

Hingey

Hello Hingey,
I fully agree with your e mail re the status of the RWFCA.I will be bringing the ultimatum we have rec for the branch to digest and give me their views and let me know what action to take. I also think it was badly worded.
Regards Brian aka jungle

I, from the Caernarfon Branch, and I’m sure hundreds more Royal Welch Comrades disagree with the undemocratic changes that are to be made on our behalf, we remember not to long ago when we all fought in vain to save the RWF from losing its identity, who did we curse and blame, Yes, Ministers and civil servants at Westminster who had never stood on a parade ground, “they don’t understand the value of keeping our identity” we cried, and lo and behold today we have “our own” doing exactly the same, All RWFCA Branches should have a vote on this issue, obviously the result would be an overwhelming majority to keep the present standard, in the future when we Royal Welch men and women “fade” away then by all means make changes, I have the up most respect for our brave comrades of the Royal Welsh, I have been proud to parade and march with them, (made my day) and we need to cater for their future but please not at our expense, Someone suggested we move on, we cant nor wish to, the Royal Welch is in the past, we keep it alive by holding on to our values and traditions, and Benny, I don’t think H.Q wants to keep the twig alive by watering, more likely want to re-seed the whole garden, I cant see anything in this topic that concerns North/South divide but while on the subject lets not forget that we have a middle part to our country and a lot of brave men and women in the Royal Welch and the Royal Welsh Regiments came from the middle part of Wales, Good on you hingey and Brian (Jungle), get the ball rolling, let not kid ourselves here, we all know the next episode, “They all look like a load of clowns on parade, different colour berets, ties and blazer badges, only one way to sort this out, back to H.Q gentlemen”. Maybe I’m wasting my time, the deal has been done, and threats have been made, shame on you.

Brian

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bricoates

I, from the Caernarfon Branch, and I’m sure hundreds more Royal Welch Comrades disagree with the undemocratic changes that are to be made on our behalf, we remember not to long ago when we all fought in vain to save the RWF from losing its identity, who did we curse and blame, Yes, Ministers and civil servants at Westminster who had never stood on a parade ground, “they don’t understand the value of keeping our identity” we cried, and lo and behold today we have “our own” doing exactly the same, All RWFCA Branches should have a vote on this issue, obviously the result would be an overwhelming majority to keep the present standard, in the future when we Royal Welch men and women “fade” away then by all means make changes, I have the up most respect for our brave comrades of the Royal Welsh, I have been proud to parade and march with them, (made my day) and we need to cater for their future but please not at our expense, Someone suggested we move on, we cant nor wish to, the Royal Welch is in the past, we keep it alive by holding on to our values and traditions, and Benny, I don’t think H.Q wants to keep the twig alive by watering, more likely want to re-seed the whole garden, I cant see anything in this topic that concerns North/South divide but while on the subject lets not forget that we have a middle part to our country and a lot of brave men and women in the Royal Welch and the Royal Welsh Regiments came from the middle part of Wales, Good on you hingey, get the ball rolling, let not kid ourselves here, we all know the next episode, “They all look like a load of clowns on parade, different colour berets, ties and blazer badges, only one way to sort this out, back to H.Q gentlemen”. Maybe I’m wasting my time, the deal has been done, and threats have been made, shame on you.

Brian

---

You are correct in saying your wasting your time, its done lets just get on with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jase hill

You are correct in saying your wasting your time, its done lets just get on with it.

---

No Jase, I said "Maybe im wasting my time" I see and respect your point of view, please respect mine.

Brian