saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

John this gets stranger

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From same `Person` in the October 45 the St Venant File was returned to the British from SHAEF for possible future consideration included in the file was a `nominal roll` of possible victims ? The File reference was/is GAP 000.5-2 (104) Date 11th March 1945. The OIC was a Captain Barnes SIO Special Enquiries Branch. It gets weirder too they state his date of death was changed on the 19th March 1941 which can be confirmed in File Ref Cas 469/DLI. confirmed 26th November 1941

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(The last date at least is correct????)


Jim

More files for the to-do FOI list then, Jim. Whoever your anonymous source is, he seems to know what he's talking about.

John

Hello John,

Unfortunately the MoD have not taken kindly to being prompted with another file reference and are now stating they cannot (will not) help further. Yet the link they provided me gives confirmation of what `truth-hunter` has stated namely that the St Venant documents were returned and there file references are indeed correct,100% correct actually.
The MoD latest reply;-

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As explained in the original reply, there is no documentation held by the MOD for the subject that refers to any 'Form Q80' or any variant of that.

However, there is a page on the National Archives website which may be of use to you:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk...

If not, I am sorry that we are unable to assist any further.

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In reply ;-

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Thank you once again for your reply however your reply states "As explained in the original reply, there is no documentation held by the MOD for the subject that refers to any 'Form Q80' or any variant of that". Can I point out that this was NOT what the original reply stated it simply said "We are unable to find a reference to "Q80" not any variant and that is why I elaborated on the reference.
The National Archive link you kindly provided only reinforces the fact that your MI9 section did issue Forms Q and if they are not held by the National Archives which brings us to the question" where exactly would they now be?" Your own criteria for the disposal and destruction of documents would prevent these Q80 documents being disposed of in any fashion?
The soldier in question is missing and has been for over 70 years yet it is obvious to anyone who has looked into this even briefly that there are documents which can shed light onto his fate yet there appears a reluctance to locate and produce them?
The MoD make great efforts to highlight the state of the art storage facilities they share with the NA `fifteen football pitches` wide and climate controlled yet you can state with 100% certainty within a day that you do not hold this document and you cannot help further? Or is it that no one actually knows what you actually have so its easier to state you do not hold them? Remember the soldiers wills you also didn't have? Or is it a case that its so long ago that no one believes we care anymore about a soldier that `disappeared` so long ago. Wrong on all counts we do care!
The link you provided confirms that my recent information that the documents relating to missing soldiers who may have been subject to War Crimes at St Venant in 1940 were returned from SHAEF on the 17th October 1945 in an envelope with the reference GAP 000.5-2 (104) Dated 11th March 1945. The OIC was a Captain Barnes SIO Special Enquiries Branch.
Details on Pte Corkhill`s record were changed on the 19th March 1941 which can be confirmed in File Ref Cas 469/DLI. confirmed 26th November 1941 are you so certain you cannot help further?
Yours sincerely,

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Unfortunately I think it will antagonise them further...even if it is true!


Jim

They won't like that at all.

John

Added to my request today by third party

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The MOD's archives are a shambles. They have bits and pieces strewn all over the place. The information you are seeking is probably held under a Lord Chancellor's Instrument for 100 years so you've a few more years to wait. Ask them if this is so but, sadly, they will have no idea.

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What`s a Lord Chancellors Instrument I asked myself ? From the MoD..................

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The Public Records Act ordinarily requires that public records selected for permanent preservation at The National Archives are transferred before they are 30 years old. However, this requirement does not apply in certain circumstances where the Lord Chancellor has given his approval for their retention by the body holding them.

On 19 December 2011 the Lord Chancellor made a new instrument to authorise the retention beyond 30 years of public records where this is necessary for national security reasons.

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Jim

Update;-

Despite repeated attempts the MoD insist that they do not hold the Forms Q we seek. They are adamant that if the document was marked for preservation it would be at the National Archives. They have provided links which unfortunately lead straight back to the MoD. The files are by their own admission made up not of ALL documents but SURVIVING documents. They also acknowledge that some form of notification was received but once the War Office had established a date of death it was not always necessary to retain that particular document?

May I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year and we will resume in 2016 :)

Best Wishes

Jim

Hi,

No I haven't forgotten about updating this thread the search goes on but as you can guess it is painfully slow (again) :)

Form Q is a document for recording mistreatment and war crimes it has also been suggested to me that a `Q` reference was used by graves registration units where possible identities were put forward for`unknown` graves ? The gentleman who contacted me about this has promised to send me an example but to date it hasn't arrived.

The original grave we looked at (which the CWGC denied existed despite featuring on their website) was the subject of a war crimes investigation and given the title `Schedule 7` The document I have names six crimes so I am assuming `Schedule 7` is another file `lost` to the public (Although it appears the list of occupants of the mass grave did originate from the `schedule 7` document (possibly the only surviving document or a duplicated document attached to both files)

The War Crimes investigation of six `murders` dates may be inaccurate and the CWGC dates of death are not only approximate but in some other cases pure fantasy with many listed as 10-31 May 1940 . On the 10th May the DLI were no where near St Venant. Previously we established that these type of dates were `last recorded sighting and date body was found` and we have always looked for the reference(s) to Anthony Corkhill from the last sighting to the time of his recorded death (27th-29th May) ? Indeed I did a search on Syd Walt in a bid to determine if he and Anthony were taken to the same aid station it appears from the reports that I have read that Pte Walt may have died of his wounds on the actual day of battle 27th May 1940 and his body was recovered from the battlefield on the 29th May 1940 and an assumed date of death given as 29th ? Likewise this may have happened in Anthony`s case where he has died/shot/murdered on the 27th and body recovered on the 29th May 1940 it would explain why no record of his capture or treatment in an aid station can be found ? Nothing concrete I`m afraid but I will follow up what leads I can


Best

Jim

Good Morning Folks.
Jim, thanks for the update.
I have been thinking for some time about this thread. I have begun to wonder if we may have been wrong in some way with our basic argument. Your latest post adds to that thought.
we have all along treated Anthony as an Unknown. But is He, i am no longer sure. We have Evidence of his position from RSM Goddard on 27th. There must have been further Evidence for his Date of Death to be Specifically stated as 29th. so again Not Unknown. The Relevant Authorities MUST have held Documentation regarding Anthony. Probably other ''unknowns'' as well. So What Has Happened To it.
Is this a case,and i have no doubt there are others. Who were Not Unknowns at the Time, But have become ''Lost'' due to Administration Blunders.

If this argument is valid, then, surely, it becomes the Responsibility or Duty of the ''Powers that Be'' to investigate it, they have ''lost'' the Documentation.
i believe this should change the basis of your questions from ''have you got '' to '' you had this info so where is it, and if you have not now got it , Why.'' This apparent loss of info may apply to a lot of ''unknowns''.
Hope this thinking is of some use..


ivor

Hello Ivor,

In my latest round of discussion with `the man from the MoD` he was very open to the fact that the documents released to the National Archives were not necessarily complete but they were made up of the surviving records with many destroyed several years ago (possibly not envisaging any great interest?) If you recall Tony made an enquiry to the CWGC regarding one `unknown` buried next to Syd Walt ? He was told this unknown was a `Corporal` not a Private but there was no record of this on their database before Tony`s enquiry. In other cases I (and John) have stumbled on an error in the spelling or regimental numbers which `may` indicate who actually rests there. In my most recent investigation I even have a map showing one fellows grave who has been an `unknown` since 1944.
The MoD are not hiding the fact ,I`m afraid that a lot of documents are not `lost` but destroyed but in many instances I`m sure any enquiry is shifted to the `too hard ` box.

Jim

I am very interested in any detail of St Venant as my grandfather Albert Evans 1 st bat. RWF was killed there May 25th 1940 and is buried there. He was apparently blown up on a bridge with 6 or 7 others but I am not sure if this is accurate and would like to find any documentation or record of the events. I have a book about the battle written in French by a local historian which seems to tell of an Evans shot through the shoulder and later dying. He was aged 39 and had just been promoted to warrant officer.
If anyone has any info at all I would be very grateful of a reply

Yours hopefully

Andy Parcell