saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

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03-08-2012, 21:33
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Cwgc reply from my enquiry regarding regimental headstones to unkmown casualties

Quote:

Thank you for your e-mail of 30th July 2012.<O:P></O:P>
I have checked our headstone schedules for Haverskerque British Military cemetery, Row EE and have found that there are two unknowns of the Royal Welch Fusiliers buried in Graves 14 & 15.<O:P></O:P>
I hope that this information is helpful to you.<O:P></O:P>

Yours sincerely<O:P></O:P>

<O:P></O:P>

Julie Williams (Mrs)<O:P></O:P>

Enquiries Administrator<O:P></O:P>

Best

Jim
04-08-2012, 13:41
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
I have been looking into the possibility of the existance of more war crimes files as I find it hard to believe that out of 60 (Alledged) reports only 6 were listed and only four ever investigated.Enquiries at the National Archives have revealed there are several `other` files listed.The bad news is they are only viewable at the NA in London (or you can have them copied at your expense).The files found to date are;-
search results
- War Office: Judge Advocate General's Office, Reference WO 309/2220
  Alleged atrocities against British soldiers at St Venant and Calonne-sur-la-Lys, France, 1940 . Alleged atrocities against British soldiers at St Venant and Calonne-sur-la-Lys, France, 1940 War Office: Judge Advocate General's Office, British Army of
  Date: 1946
- War Office: Directorate of Military Operations Ref WO 208/4648
  St Venant, Pas de Calais, France: shooting of allied POWs . St Venant, Pas de Calais, France: shooting of allied POWs Interrogation of enemy POWs by London District Cage personnel PRISONERS OF WAR SECTION War Office: Directorate of Military Operations
  Date: 1945 - 1947
- War Office: Supreme Headquarters Allied Expedition Ref WO 219/5063
  Vicinity of St. Venant, Pas de Calais, France in May 1940 . Vicinity of St. Venant, Pas de Calais, France in May 1940 ADJUTANT GENERAL'S RECORD BRANCH Reports of SHAEF Courts of Enquiry on shooting/atrocities of Allied prisoners of war by German Armed
  Date: 1945
- Judge Advocate General's Office, Military Deputy's Ref WO 311/97
  St Venant, Par de Calais, France: shooting of British POWs . St Venant, Par de Calais, France: shooting of British POWs Judge Advocate General's Office, Military Deputy's Department, and War Office, Directorates of Army Legal Services and Personal Services:
  Date: 1945 - 1947
Best
Jim
04-08-2012, 15:04
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

I wouldn't be surprised if they all basically concerned the same cases.

John
04-08-2012, 16:16
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Jim.
Interesting. On the face of it the first file would look to be favourite as the others specifically refer to POW’S.
Unless, An interesting question. Would Anthony, because he was found behind enemy lines be automatically classed as a POW?
Now memory is bugging me again, I seem to recall that somewhere either you or Tony said that you had found reference to another Corkhill in POW records. But I am not sure of the initial. I vaguely think it was H, if it was, could we be looking at another possible transcription error. Anthony’s Memory loss is an added complication, but how bad was it?

Question, if a POW required treatment and medication would they have received it, and if so where would the record have been kept?

ivor
04-08-2012, 17:04
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by vori101

Jim.
Interesting. On the face of it the first file would look to be favourite as the others specifically refer to POW’S.
Unless, An interesting question. Would Anthony, because he was found behind enemy lines be automatically classed as a POW?
Now memory is bugging me again, I seem to recall that somewhere either you or Tony said that you had found reference to another Corkhill in POW records. But I am not sure of the initial. I vaguely think it was H, if it was, could we be looking at another possible transcription error. Anthony’s Memory loss is an added complication, but how bad was it?

Question, if a POW required treatment and medication would they have received it, and if so where would the record have been kept?

ivor

Hello Ivor,
There was another Corkhill but it was established this was not Anthony.You are correct with the Initial though it was a `H`.This Corkhill was also with the DLI but survived the war.This could have been the `Corkhill` that the DLI soldier wrote to the Corkhill family about (stomach wound/loss of memory) The riddle of how this soldier knew the Corkhills family address is easily explained ...he didnt..the correspondence would have been forwarded by Infantry Records Office at York.it was more than likely that it was the records office who mistook the `H`for an `A`
In relation to the treatment would summise that some record would be kept by whatever establishment treated him
Best
Jim
04-08-2012, 21:19
teecee1941

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

I reckon you could be absolutely right, John. I don't mind paying for the information but I'm sure that when it came, it would be the same four cases that were featured in the War Crimes file.

Tony
05-08-2012, 13:41
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

No I dont believe they do what they may encompass is other years and locations.They may include additional information but unless you can spend a couple of days reading and copying the parts relevant to your quest then the `official` cost would be prohibitive anyone requiring copied files would be better off seeking the help of a part-time researcher I`ve used them and they are usually Good value for your money.Just to point out in certain files you will find sections which are still not open to the public....WO 311/92/1 is one such Closed extract...what does it contain? In this instance nothing which will aid in Tonys search for Anthony as this deals with Chateau D'Audriew, Normandy, France: shooting of Canadian and British POWs in 1944...but I wonder if theres similar closed files for st Venant 1940?

Best
Jim
05-08-2012, 13:55
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by vori101

Question, if a POW required treatment and medication would they have received it, and if so where would the record have been kept?

That's what I hope to hear from my contacts in the Volksbund and the Bundeswehr Museum.

John
05-08-2012, 15:20
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Good morning all.
Thanks for the info Jim, it would appear that we can ignore the memory loss thing, good, we have enough complications as it is.
I emailed I.W.M. on Friday, outlining the reasons for our investigation and asking if they might have any info that could assist. So like you john we will have to wait and see.

Ivor.
05-08-2012, 21:28
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
I was recommended a book titled `Retreat to Victory` by Major General Julian Thompson a couple of months ago in relation to the operations leading up to the evacuation.In this last hour or so I have reached the events of May 27th 1940 and wish to share with you the following paragraph from that book;-

Quote:

A few of the RWF got back over the Lys Canal to some cottages that afforded them a modicum of cover The CO Lt Col Harrison was last over the pontoon bridge ,carrying a wounded officer.He shouted that the bridge should be blown ,but there was no one to carry out the order.a German tank approached and lurched over the bridge-which had been erected by the British .The Germans haddemolished the main bridge two days earlier after withdrawing from a foray across the canal .The pontoon bridge designed to carry a 15 CWT truck should have collapsed under the tank but unfortunately held together

If true then this poses some questions ...

What if this was a Pontoon? Then in the small sketch from the PoW that bridge is certainly not a pontoon so where exactly was that bridge??

If it were a pontoon then are both the canal banks now within reach of anyone lucky enough to cross?
- Would the pontoon,if indeed it was a pontoon be erected over the destroyed structure or further along the bank?
- Where would Major General Thompson find such information? Although I think I might be able to guess that one...from one of the Royal Engineers War Diaries?
It would also answer the question of why the lead tank hesitated at the Bridge...did he expect it to collapse under him? Over to you chaps.
Best

Jim
05-08-2012, 22:03
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

There was no pontoon bridge erected by the British. There was a wooden bridge erected by the French. The good general should have checked his facts.

The German tank commander probably was more worried about getting blown up - as he should have been, and would have been had the sappers not disappeared.

John
06-08-2012, 00:48
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Jim.
Despite Johns vehement denial that there was a pontoon bridge, this confirms an account I read of a temporary bridge, somewhere.
I read in a German account that on 23^rd they had mobile patrols on the north bank which had come under fire from advancing British troops, it did not mention blowing any bridges, but it may be a possibility.
I had been thinking in terms of the German’s building a bridge, but as we captured bridging material and had engineers, then it could have been built by them.
If there was this second bridge then it makes the Majors Diary more understandable.
This can not be dismissed without further investigation, but we would have to try and find the authors source material. Probably you would need to get in touch with the publishers in the first instance and see if they would know.
But the R.E Diary if it is available may be a distinct possibility, had'nt thought of that, good thinking, possible new evidence.

This could prove very interesting.

ivor
06-08-2012, 10:10
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

The mobile patrol on the north bank (the so-called Russow patrol. also mentioned in one of my previous posts) was part of the advance by the SS Germania regiment on 24th May. This advance had crossed the Aire canal at the la Pierrière bridge and on an improvised bridge at Isbergues, constructed of inflatable rafts and planks by the 1st SS Engineer Coy (there's your cherished pontoon bridge, probably), and had then crossed the Lys on the St Venant bridge and reached Haverskerque, splitting off patrols on both banks of the Lys in the direction of St Floris and Merville. The St Floris patrol ran into 1 RWF later that day. The news of that encounter made the Germans abandon their bridgehead, with the exception of the Russow patrol which had been cut off from the main body by 2/5 West Yorks near Merville.

John
06-08-2012, 11:32
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Morning.

‘’to some cottages that afforded them a modicum of cover’’
I wonder if this was the village/hamlet of La Calone, which I don’t think is very big.

The other thing I find odd is that the bridge would only be capable of taking 15 ton’s. But if you give the sighting of the bridge some thought then it has to be to the east.
When A & C Co RWF entered St Venant on 24^th they found it undefended, but when they pushed on towards the bridge that was their objective, they had not gone very far when they came under fire from German’s who were already dug in. If we remember that they were under a stop order, then that could explain why all troops had withdrawn to their position when the order was issued. So we know where the enemy is coming from, the West. So if you are going to construct a bridge you are surely going to go as far to the east, St Floris, as possible.
We will have to wait and see.

ivor
06-08-2012, 11:51
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Where is La Calone? Why the West?

You now seem to confuse even your good self, Ivor.

The bridges which were the objectives of A and C Coys RWF were the bridges across the Aire-la Bassée canal at l' Epinette and la Pierrière.

John
06-08-2012, 11:54
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

John
My French does not get anywhere near translating this.
http://users.telenet.be/memoriaalmei...dex.htm#titre5
Is it of any interest?

ivor
06-08-2012, 12:12
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Not really, Ivor. The site is not yet finished and the only interesting part, the history of the fighting along the Lys in 1940, still remains unwritten. Everything else is about the Belgian army from 1830 to the present.

John
06-08-2012, 12:46
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

john.
Should have read La Corbie.
Sorry, senior moment. does'nt happen very often.

ivor
06-08-2012, 13:08
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Le Corbie, thought so.

Regrettably all sources indicate that the cluster of cottages was located at the beginning of the Haverskerque road, about 250 yards from the St Venant bridge and lock. See my 1917 map, square J34.

John
06-08-2012, 18:09
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 John.
This book Jim is reading could prove a lead to something else which is relevant to what we are doing, hopefully.
But, you know, YDG and this book are just that books. The problem being that original documentation, whether it be a POW scribbling notes on any thing he can find or a war diary written by the Co Adj at HQ, they are not suitable for publication as they are. They have to be tidied up. This is where the errors occur and you know how easy that is.
The other problem is that there is a lot of circumstantial evidence that a second crossing might exist and Jim’s book adds to that evidence, so, there comes a point when it has to be believed or disproved. I think we are close to that point. I am working on it.

Ivor.
06-08-2012, 19:14
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Ivor, what you really want are surveillance camera tapes.

In my opinion there is no evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, for a second crossing. Reputable historians (Faivre, Sebag-Montefiore, Kemp and Graves to name but a few) found no trace of one. All you have is 'yes but' and 'what if'.

John
06-08-2012, 22:00
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

If there was no Pontoon then the author is not only guilty of not checking his sources but adding to the re-writing of history (albeit a small piece but re-written all the same).I think what Ivor wrote early in this thread is now becoming more relevant `As I saw it` the truth but from a different angle or perspective.CSM McLane,Capt Townsend,2Lt Michael Farr,Pte Luke Bowden,Pte Tom Rodgers,RSM Goddard all accounts from those who were there each fighting their little own battles for survival each story a true account as seen by them at the time.Everyone true but unfortunately for Tony not the slightest bit of help in finding Anthony Corkhill what we need is an account of what happened at the HQ in those fateful final hours does this account exist? I do not know but we continue to search.
Historians and authors base their accounts on what others who were either there or took part in the planing of such operations tell them for they are the story tellers.Each new author relies heavily on what has gone before ,read the credits of the more recent accounts and we find credits to earlier works and previous authors ,who in turn have credits to even earlier works...re-telling of the events in their words.As an example I know Tony has written to Sebag-Montefiore author of dunkirk Fight to the last man but it was only tonight that I noticed that the author acknowledges the work of M.Faivre in St Venant to Robeqc ! As a main source.If we rely on any published work we may have to do a bit of detective work back through these publications in search of original sources and not take everything(as I often do!!!) as gospel because of an authors reputation.
Ivor your temp bridge..it may be ,as John suggests one of the Temp structures thrown up by the Germans then quickly destroyed/dismantled in their panic at encountering British forces....or maybe you refer to this.I will quote directly from St Venant-Robeqc;-

Quote:

The Bridge on the Lys Canal
Having arrived in St Venant on 15th November 1939 the 6th Heavy Bridge Company was tasked with building a bridge over the two arms of the canal level with the locks.It took until 21st December for the first equipment to reach the company.Construction work commenced on 6th January 1940.The method of assembly was identical to that used in building the Epinette bridge except that this bridge was made from wood not metal.
From the very beginning work was hampered by the icy conditions.They were unable to drive the piles into the ground correctly and so they had to use a crane bearing pontoon which belonged to a local business and was at a site in Arques.In the event all the canals were frozen and the apparatus could not be transported to St Venant.
Two sections from the 16th Heavy Bridge Company stationed at Merville arrived in St Venant on 20th January.Their mission was to build a small temporary construction comprising a channel with variable levels and with a six metre opening onto the locks and a small drawbridge 14.85 metres wide over the River Lys.This would allow convoys to move more easily whilst waiting for work to recommence at the main site.Work started on 21st January and was completed by 6th February.

The main bridge was of course eventually completed and on the 6th April was handed over to the General Officer Commanding the 7th Army.....but what became of this temporary structure? Is this the Temporary Bridge Ivor you have been trying to recall?

Best
Jim
07-08-2012, 00:18
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Hi again.
Jim, Thank you for finding confidence in my ‘’Truth As I see it’’. Once you realise this it puts things in a different light. The other important point you have found, is the way authors use other published work as source material giving credit to the other author. I found a glaring example of this in a quote I gave from Major Ellis in relation to the war in France and Flanders 1939-1940 about the History of St Venant, This is IDENTICAL, to the account in YDG.
There is another problem, when researching you need to access original documents, we can not do this because M Faivre has cornered the market in info re St Venant area and we can not get anything without going through him. So if he decides he can find nothing and pulls out we can do nothing. As he already has done. As it is no longer in the public domain we are totally dependant on his mood. This is not really acceptable.
Maybe now you can understand why I am so insistent that we find as much original work as possible. We have to use published work as a basis for further search, finding their source material. If we can. We can only keep digging.
Now with regard to this temporary bridge, I don’t think it is my bridge, From the account I got the impression that they came across the bridge when they were approaching the area from the east. I will have to see if I can find it again.

Ivor
07-08-2012, 18:45
teecee1941

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Ivor, in my humble opinion, you've hit the nail on the head when you say Mr Faivre has 'cornered the market' in the Saint Venant area. It looks like Saint Venant is his property.

Tony
08-08-2012, 02:07
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 John.
I am sorry but I do Not want surveillance tapes. I want something much more difficult the truth.
The deeper we go with this it seems the less we actually know. I have found the On line work by Major Ellis quotes extensively from YDG. Tony finds a response from another researcher quoting from M Faivre. So how many other works are interlinked.
The book Jim has seems to be quoting from a different, as yet unknown source, so it can not be dismissed without investigating. As I said some time ago, if we find something that doesn’t fit with accepted accounts, well, so be it.

ivor
08-08-2012, 10:38
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by vori101

John.
I am sorry but I do Not want surveillance tapes. I want something much more difficult the truth.
The deeper we go with this it seems the less we actually know. I have found the On line work by Major Ellis quotes extensively from YDG. Tony finds a response from another researcher quoting from M Faivre. So how many other works are interlinked.
The book Jim has seems to be quoting from a different, as yet unknown source, so it can not be dismissed without investigating. As I said some time ago, if we find something that doesn’t fit with accepted accounts, well, so be it.

ivor

Hello Ivor,
The book I quoted from is ,as I posted,St Venant-Robeqc by M.Faivre there is a more up todate version retitled Les combats de St Venant 22 - 27 mai 1940 but I do not have that one.To be fair to M.Faivre he is very much in demand and not knowing him personally,nor having any direct contact with him I will not be commenting on his participation in this matter.

Best
Jim
08-08-2012, 11:35
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Ivor, mon ami, I am glad that you are discovering the joys of historical research for yourself. Not that easy, and I wish you good hunting.

In your search for the truth as yet undiscovered by your predecessors, I can offer the following quotes from the testimony of Hauptsturmführer Herbert Christiansen, SS Germania, who described his journey from the Aire-la Bassée canal to Haverskerque. The translation is not mine.

"North of St VENANT, in the neighbourhood of the auxiliary bridge however, several shot down enemy tanks and armoured vehicles stood about, which had been shot down during a counter-attack to prevent the establishment of the German bridge-head."

"On the return journey I stopped at the auxiliary bridge north of St VENANT owing to the formations which did not belong to the Regt coming towards us from the opposite direction."

Other approaches:

Are there any survivors of the action still alive in Wales? In Newcastle and Durham? If so, go and talk to them. It would also be interesting to go and talk to M Faivre in person [I may do that myself in the autumn].

If you confine yourself to searching for documents on the internet, you will be disappointed. And besides, not everything you see on the internet is necessarily true.

I shall follow your revelations with interest but do not think that there is anything to be gained by attempting to [re]write the history of the fighting around St Venant myself - others have done that already, and done it well. I shall now concentrate my research on the 1st Bn in 1914-1918 again.

John
08-08-2012, 16:21
Swiper

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verrieres

I
Historians and authors base their accounts on what others who were either there or took part in the planing of such operations tell them for they are the story tellers.Each new author relies heavily on what has gone before ,read the credits of the more recent accounts and we find credits to earlier works and previous authors ,who in turn have credits to even earlier works...re-telling of the events in their words.

Well put Jim, its 'historical piggybacking' if someone pulls out all their personal sources on this and starts totally from scratch then we may be actually able to learn something new...
09-08-2012, 21:28
Aled Roberts

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baconwallah

Ivor, what you really want are surveillance camera tapes.

Funny you should say that John. I have been following this thread with great interest, but unfortunately can't add anything as it is outside of my normal stomping ground research wise.

When I read this I wondered if there may be some aerial photographs taken around these dates by the RAF of the area that may help things along? Hendon might be a good start? I will ask around some of my RAF type chums.

Richard
09-08-2012, 21:56
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Evening All

John. Let me start off by saying that I am Surprised, somewhat bemused and, not to put too fine a point on it, damn well gutted, at your withdrawing from this. You have always been the lead on this as you have the contacts, that the rest of us don’t. I will come back to this later.
Your point about surviving veterans of this action is interesting. But i would not be prepared to interview any 90ish year olds with regard to something which may have painful memories for them.

Now, with regard to your S.S. Officer. Intriguing.
Auxiliary. Additional. Supplementary. Reserve.

with Synonyms – Backup. Ancillary, Secondary. Hmmmm.
O.K. can this testimony be believed?
So somewhere to the north of St Venant we have an additional/backup bridge. Fascinating, but ,if my map reading skills haven’t faded with age, I believe that St Venant is probably at the most southerly point of the Lys, which, from there flows north east. Very helpful. Grrrrrr.
The second quote is quite interesting. Who were these troops ’’not of his regiment’’
It would appear that our S.S. Officer may have seen the advanced elements of a unit from Army Group Fourth. Which was advancing from the south? This is probably why he didn’t recognize them. I won’t be able to check this out for some time. So I don’t know if this was the unit that attacked Merville. Possibly.
Now if this testimony, and it’s translation, can be believed this is the first Direct, reliable, (eye Witness) evidence we have of a second bridge.
John. What is your opinion of the translation?
To return to my first point.
I have already expressed my feelings on your pulling out.
But since I was advised to be careful about what I said in an earlier post. I have, with my insistence on obtaining the answer to a particular question, sensed that my position is causing disquiet amongst some people.
Let me be Perfectly clear on this.
In my last fulltime job, Admin Support with the Hercules IPT at RAF Wyton. I was cleared to handle Confidential and Secret Documents. And as you may know you Do Not sign a release from the Official Secrets Act. So you can be assured that I am fully conversant with the requirements of dealing with sensitive material.
Let me stress this. I will not put any info on here which could be classed as controversial, upsetting to anyone or of a personal nature without some Permission.

ivor
09-08-2012, 22:17
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Ivor, mon ami, I am not entirely withdrawing from this thread. I shall share what I get from my German contacts, of course, assuming that I get anything useful, and shall continue the search for Anthony Corkhill. I just do not think that there is anything to be gained by my rewriting the history of 1 RWF at St Venant. As I said, it has been done before and done well, in my opinion.

Causing disquiet? Not with me. No worries, mate.

The SS officer's testimony is from the St Venant War Crimes reports, 1946. The auxiliary bridge is without a doubt the French wooden bridge built in Jan-Feb 1940 across the Lys 200 yards N of St Venant. The troops "not of his regiment" were most likely supply columns belonging to 3 Pz Div and on the way to Haverskerque. As the statement was made in 1945-1946, it is no more reliable - possibly less - than the eyewitness statements written by the RWF officers in the prison camp. As for the translation, it is correct but slightly quaint - "shot down tanks" is a literal translation of the German "abgeschossen" which sounds a bit funny to me. I can get you the original German text if you want.

John
10-08-2012, 00:15
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 John.
I am glad you are still with us.
I am quite happy with the idea of shot down tanks. sounds reassuringly foreign. But I was puzzled with the translation as Auxiliary. I can understand it’s use in relation to.- forces – nurses – power units - but it certainly seems odd in relation to a bridge. Especially a bridge which was the main highway north from the village. Oh incidentally my German is non existent.
I wonder would this Officers testimony be given under oath. If it was then it would, rightly or wrongly, carry more weight than ordinary evidence.
I found 2 maps which I think may be of interest. They are in Members gallery – vori101. I could not get them to insert in this post.

ivor
10-08-2012, 00:37
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Ivor, the statement was under oath and dated 12 July 1946.

The German text says "Behilfsbrücke" which the unknown interpreter translated as "auxiliary bridge". Call it auxiliary, call it temporary, whatever, it was the French wooden bridge that was inserted into the main road north through St Venant early in 1940 because the old bridges of the Route Nationale could not cope with the expected heavy wartime traffic.

I should add that the SS officer, who commanded part of the Germania rear echelon [the Technische Fahrzeug Kompanie], used the sentences quoted in his description of his trip on 28th May from rear HQ at Busnes to the front north of the Fôret de Nieppe and back, by way of St Venant and Haverskerque. His job was to recover disabled German vehicles and get them back for repairs.

I can't find your maps in the Gallery, only four shots from Malta. Somehow I always get lost in the Gallery.

John
10-08-2012, 06:19
ap1

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by vori101

But since I was advised to be careful about what I said in an earlier post. I have, with my insistence on obtaining the answer to a particular question, sensed that my position is causing disquiet amongst some people. Let me be Perfectly clear on this. In my last fulltime job, Admin Support with the Hercules IPT at RAF Wyton. I was cleared to handle Confidential and Secret Documents. And as you may know you Do Not sign a release from the Official Secrets Act. So you can be assured that I am fully conversant with the requirements of dealing with sensitive material.
Let me stress this. I will not put any info on here which could be classed as controversial, upsetting to anyone or of a personal nature without some Permission.

ivor

Hi Ivor, just for clarity. The only person who has expressed disquiet was me! This was in relation Lt Col Harrison. The point about the forum is its a public place and you and the other guys are researching in the public gaze, comments or views that you perhaps express in private in a dusty office over a coffee, well, thats a different environment to this area, especially if what you say or uncover has potential impact on surviving relatives. That was all that I was expressing and reminding you about. The thread is interesting, I hope you get to the end of the story. And for background, as well as my Royal Welch service, i'm also a former police officer used to handling sensitive information!
10-08-2012, 10:09
ivor43

2 Attachment(s)

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Attachment 2867 Attachment 2868
John
these were the maps i mentioned. finally figured how to load them.
not easy

ivor
10-08-2012, 13:10
Baconwallah

1 Attachment(s)

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Try this one, Ivor. From the YDG article, 1954.

John

Attachment 2869
11-08-2012, 08:29
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Good Morning.

I think it is going to be another hot one out here on the West Wales Riviera. But while it is still quiet I have been thinking, about alternative sources of info.
We know of the 2 main units, RWF and 2DLI, there is a possibility of info from R.E. but I was wondering if there is any possibility of another source. As I have said before my father was RCS and I know that he was one of 27 signallers attached to a RA unit.
Would RWF and 2DLI. or Btn Hq, have similar groups attached, and if so, would they have kept their own records. Or would they just have been included in unit records.

ivor
11-08-2012, 09:48
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by vori101

Good Morning.

I think it is going to be another hot one out here on the West Wales Riviera. But while it is still quiet I have been thinking, about alternative sources of info.
We know of the 2 main units, RWF and 2DLI, there is a possibility of info from R.E. but I was wondering if there is any possibility of another source. As I have said before my father was RCS and I know that he was one of 27 signallers attached to a RA unit.
Would RWF and 2DLI. or Btn Hq, have similar groups attached, and if so, would they have kept their own records. Or would they just have been included in unit records.

ivor

Morning Ivor,
Signals I believe were attached to the battalions at this stage so I think their records would have been incorporated into the parent groups diary.Thats not a bad suggestion though because ,apart from "DLI,RWF and R.Berks ` there would have been other units present each having their own Diaries(If they survived!)
Just to clarify a point on Diaries on the whole they were quite comprehensive,casualty lists,signal,Officers,Detached personnel,those evacuated beyond the RAP,Awards for Bravery etc etc unfortunately at this time confusion reigned and if the diaries were ever completed to such a standard they were either lost or captured (If captured where would they be?) but in the most case scenario they were never done,I have a copy of the original `Diary` scribbled on a single sheet.
On another totally different note I came across a set of photographs last night from 2003-2009 showing St Venant bridges canals etc I know these are in the main modern replacements but does anyone know if any of the bridges photographed portray an area where `our bridge` would have been. The link to the collection is;-
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cpasaintvenant/page2/

Best

Jim
11-08-2012, 11:02
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

War Diaries: any signallers or engineers attd to 1 RWF or 2 DLI would never have been more than a few men, so no WDs.

The photo of the "bridge" with a house in the centre shows the St Venant lock in the southern arm of the Lys canal as seen from the cemetery side. The house is the lock keeper's cottage. The wooden bridge would have been a few yards beyond the lock.

John
11-08-2012, 23:30
teecee1941

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baconwallah

War Diaries: any signallers or engineers attd to 1 RWF or 2 DLI would never have been more than a few men, so no WDs.

The photo of the "bridge" with a house in the centre shows the St Venant lock in the southern arm of the Lys canal as seen from the cemetery side. The house is the lock keeper's cottage. The wooden bridge would have been a few yards beyond the lock.

John

For a while now, I've had a picture of the bridge and its surroundings in my head. The lock keepers cottage was about where the Taverne farm was that was being used as HQ. The bridge was very near, just yards away. The image in my mind was supported by Bob Lake's painting which showed a reasonable panoramic view of the area. The last day or two, doubts have crept into my mind and I would be pleased if anyone can put me back on an even keel. These are my doubts;-

I have read several accounts of the action on the bridge including Major Metcalfe's diary. I do not remember reading anything about the lock. I have travelled a few times on Narrowboats on the British canals and I am aware of the importance of the lock system. The lock itself is an imposing structure and, as we know, separates the two levels of water. I think it is strange why the lock does not seem to be mentioned. The lock keepers cottage seems to be mentioned now and again but not the actual lock. I would have thought that the resourceful RWF or DLI would have made some sort of use of the lock when the going was getting unbearably tough.

I'm sure someone will explain

Tony

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