saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

May well be mate, I shall investigate when I have time

To the West of St Venant there were members of the SS-Verfügungs-Division which in 1940 consisted of elements of Deutschland, Germania and Der Führer. Germania was withdrawn in late 1940 to form the nucleus of The Germania Division.
Extensive investigations into which actual units were at St Venant. Germanias III Regt was found to have been in the area of the atrocities on two seperate occasions and invetigations then centred upon tracing men of this unit. A German clerk in the SS Germania Unit SS Sturmbanfurher Erich Heinrich claimed that had such atrocities in the area occured and been known then at Divisional,Regimental and Battalion there would have been a death sentence passed upon the men respnsible. However there is a note that the commander DEMELHUBER`s character is well known and bearing this in mind this PoWs statement bears no weight.
A second SS prisoner Stumbanfurher Robert Kraft is described as a`stupid type`who was a Private soldier in 6th Coy in 1940 and who claims to remember none of his units movements for the period.
From Germania III efforts were made to trace
Medical Officer Dr Strotz
Admin Officer Schmidt (Killed)
Hauptsturmfurhrer Willy Franz MT Officer
Sturmfurhrer Kling
Plus a further 12 SS men of lower ranks .Presumably to question in relation to events/actions rather than as direct information into their actual involvement in any crime?
Each step of the investigation has summaries and conclusions attached at each step one significant finding was something Ivor touched upon regarding Insignia it was found that Germania did not wear the same uniform throughout the Regt but wore a mixture of Camo Smocks and field grey service uniforms this may have been down to supply but it was noted that members of the Regiment whilst retaining their SS lightening flashes and swasticas on their helmets removed sleeve eagles ,rank and cuff title insignia in an effort to conceal their SS identity and in particular associaton with GERMAIA.
In one of the summaries it is noted that up until this point no proof of a Regimental order has been obtained and the orders possibly came from a Battalion Commander or lower. Importance was put on the interrogation of DEMELHUBER who had been traced to a PoW facility near Hamburg.It was agreed that DEMELHUBER be asked what he knew of the perpertrators and what action (if any) was taken against them.If KARL MARIA DEMELHUBER can not confirm the identities of other supporting units at St Venant then he as sole commander would(Should) be held responsible for the actions of his men.
It was identified at this time that 16th Company (Engineers) SS Germania were forward of the main Germania battle group and fighting `independently` it was agreed that members of this Company be sought and brought for interrogation.

I hope this helps its as far as I`ve got up until now
Jim

Thanks Jim.

very interesting.
You may, have explained a puzzle as well.
If you recall the RWF.WD recalled that when they were approaching St Venant along the canal they came across some Bridging equipment which they captured. the following day a party of Engineers was seen approaching from Haverskirk.
Could it be possible that this equipment and engineers were from this 16th Co (Engineers) SS Germania.


Ivor

Good Morning All.
Found a interesting article on the actions of the 22 May to the 27th May 40. From the German perspective. you will need to scroll down to a picture of German Troops in Paris.

http://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=2475

Ivor.

Jim it was nothing unusual for there to be a mix of cammo smocks and field grey uniforms within the same SS unit and there was not supposed to be any insignia on the smocks other than SNCO and officer ranks which consisted of bars and ok leaves in either green for lower ranks or yellow for generals but the general thing was for no rank to be worn, regarding he removal of insignia this was a general order to all SS units in France from Himmler and not jus to Germania.

Ivor, it does not surprise me in the slightest there was a Engineer bridging unit in the area after all it is riddled with canals and rivers so would have been standard practice to have one available in case of blown bridges on the line of attack.

Cheers
Dave

Dave.
The puzzle to me was, who the stuff belonged to. i was aware that 3Pz had bridging gear, but i did not realise that Germania would also have had similar equipment, and that they were that close. it was the bit about the engineers being an ''independent fighting unit'' that made me realise it could be theirs.
It would be interesting to know when and which way they got there. From the accounts we have there would be a quite narrow time frame for them to get there.
Interesting.



ivor.

Hi Ivor, I suspect it was this sub unit as engineers were more commonly know as pioneers in the German army
SS-VT-Pioneer Abeilung

I believe the Divisional commander would have attached them to the Infantry attacking the area because of the number of canals and rivers that may have needed crossing by raft or a pontoon bridge put in place by the Pioneers for the infantry to replace any potentually blown bridge.Therefore tey would haven right in the thick of the fighting though probably not involved in the man assaults unless needed.

By the way Karl Maria Demelhuber was held in Bridgend POW camp in 1945 in special camp XI Island Farm from which on 10th-11the March 1945 seventy German prisoners tunnelled to freedom www.islandfarm.fsnet.co.uk

Worth a look cause the "guest" list reads like a whos who of the German high command

I was aware of Himmler`s orders to remove insignia which were made in 1941 and applied I believe to the Totenkopfverband here their unique Deaths Head was replaced by the SS runes. Several units removed insignia in Russia for obvious reasons.A General order was made in April 1945 after several cases of SS personnel being shot out of hand after SS Divisional troops were mistaken for concentration camp guards but I had not heard of such an order in 1940?
The smocks worn in May 1940 were M38 and M40 pattern which fitted over the uniform rather than replaced it the only insignia was an arm eagle I believe but unofficially soldiers added cuff titles etc which the authorities ordered removed. The insignia in the War Crimes File refers to all SS identifying insignia but it was noted not all Waffen SS men did this and no orders divisionally had been issued.In 1940 the SS were not yet known to have been involved in widespread atrocities .
Demelhuber was found in a PoW camp near Hamburg and brought to Britain for interrogation in relation to St Venant. Polish authorities asked for him to be handed over to them where he was wanted for atrocities in 1939 the application was ,for unknown reasons, refused and Demelhuber was released by the British in 1948. DEMELHUBERS testimony/report is not in this file the last date I can find up until now is 1946.
Some documents refer to other cases and this once again appears to incomplete with several important statements missing and no continuity of evidence which Ivor will agree is needed for a successful case.

Best
Jim