saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

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29-07-2012, 13:04
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

A valid point, Jim. We shall probably never know the truth.

If the RSM "moved some of the vehicles across the bridge" he may well have gone back for more, which would put him on the south bank once again. Unfortunately the RWF account in YDG does not mention the evacuation of DLI vehicles at all so it makes us none the wiser.

If the RSM actually crossed to the north bank, would he have taken his batman or would he have left his batman at HQ to help in the defence? In evacuating vehicles the services of a batman would not have been needed.

The DLI HQ position was on the tow path and the bank. The cottages north of the bridge were at least some 50 metres away from the bank, as the bridge was 160 metres long and must have extended some way past the northern bank of the Lys. If the RSM then made Anthony comfortable on the bank, he must have carried him some way and in my opinion might then just as well have carried him across the bridge. The whole point of leaving him on the bank was that the terrain was difficult to cross and a man could not easily be carried. That sounds more like the HQ position to me.

The German stretcher bearers seen by the RSM would probably not have been in the firing line, and that is what the north end of the bridge was. But the tow path and field around the DLI HQ, where fighting had ended, would be a very logical place for them to be.

In my opinion the cluster of cottages is not a very likely place to look for Anthony. But we cannot rule it out entirely.

John
29-07-2012, 13:23
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hello John,
I really am rushing out to work so I will have to make this very brief. John I do not suggest that Anthony went with the RSM as you say he would be needed for the defence of the HQ.What I am trying to say in my own clumsy way is the RSM has already crossed with the Vehicles Tony at this point is left at HQ. When the order to fall back is given a group of approx 10 including Lyster-Todd and possibly Anthony escape over the bridge ..Anthony is wounded on the far bank...following the capitulation of the cottage defenders the RSM ,who was possibly one of them is marched off where he finds Anthony...making the possibility of the grave more interesting?
More later
Best
jim
29-07-2012, 22:57
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

I see your point, Jim, and was wrong is assuming that Anthony and the RSM would have crossed together.

That does not alter my view that "making him comfortable on the bank" would have been an improbable solution, the bank being at least 160 metres from the cluster of cottages and not on the way to the rear - that would have been the bridge.

The most obvious interpretation I think is still the one with Anthony and the RSM on the tow path near HQ. Not that that increases our chances of success...

John
30-07-2012, 00:40
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 John.
While I don’t know as much about this area as you guys I am staying quiet. But these last couple of posts have got me thinking. (probably a bad thing ). When the RSM and whoever ever else helped, were making Anthony comfortable would they have been able to give him Pain Killer. If his wounds, as believed by Goddard, were not serious. Then is there not a possibility that once the Pain Killer kicked in and under the cover of darkness, he could have made it across the bridge. This would obviously depend on the nature of the wounds, I they were only flesh wounds whilst they would have been still very painful he might have had some mobility. But where might he have gone from the bridge, I know there were several ditches in the area. Or might he have tried to carry on towards the forest where there were British troops.
Is there any indication of a Farm Boulet to the East or North East of Haverskirque.
I have read many accounts of RAF Pilots being shot down but evading capture for some time by hiding during the day and moving by night.
This might account for the fact that he seemed to have disappeared until the 29^th when he is found and shot. It is a pity that we don’t know where he was when he was found, in a barn or outbuilding, maybe of Farm Boulet.
This might be worth some consideration.

Ivor
30-07-2012, 00:47
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Just in and have read your post John and like you have said we will never know....but indulge me a little further the topography of the land is posing me problems as I have gone over these events so often for three years that its really like I can see it in my minds eye but whether my imaginative battleground and reality bear any resemblence I do not know.
I do not imagine that Anthony got anywhere near the cottages, in my scenario he has been wounded crossing that bridge be it North or South he has dragged himself to the relative shelter of the canal bank (North or South) The RSM has been in the last line the buildings and cottages which in time were overun by the Germans advancing through St Venant towards the Haverskerque Road making St Venant now the German rear. The Germans overun the British the Prisoners,including RSM Goddard,are marched away to the rear? Which is now back into St Venant across the bridge and presumably in full sight of both canal banks.Anthony cries out from the bank (What ever bank that may be) The rest we know up until the RSM is marched away.Anthony is left on the canal bank awaiting the German field ambulance.

Now I have two scenarios the first is simple Anthony is more seriously wounded than RSM Goddard thought and dies of his wounds and is left in situ by the Germans two days later M.Berthe returns (again depending where Anthonys body lies ) and buries what or who he can in the trenches along with Lt Col Harrison and those others previously named. The bodies are later removed to Haverskerque where they are all buried in row EE.CWGC confirm 20 unknowns from this period at Haverskerque.
Scenario two ;-Anthony as the RSM has describes is not seriously wounded he is left unguarded he isnt going to wait to go into a POW cage he drags himself off and hides (Either bank) The German Field ambulance arrives and theres no trace of Anthony hes crawled off.Two days later on the return of M.Berthe as per the account from M.Faivre 29th May 1940 (the day Anthony is reported to have died) German lorries pass M.Berthe hears a shot..The Germans had set fire to ...what did the Germans shoot? Anthony? Who had possibly been hiding nearby? According to St Venant-Robeqc M.Faivre at least three possibly four British Army soldiers were hiding in the ruins at least one is confirmed as DLI ..are one of these the witness who confirms Anthony had died on the 29th May 1940.Remember there was no investigation into Anthony being missing he is recorded as DEAD.Unfortunately there appears no record of the fate of these men they slipped away.Again the body is found and buried by M.Berthe .Yes I know I`m convincing myself that Anthony somehow ended up in that grave on the other side of the canal but it would explain how an expert French Historian like M.Faivre could not find any trace of Anthony Corkhill amongst his extensive St Venant records and his detailed autopsy reports which had aided in finding Tom Rodgers with a description of no more than Tall, Good build and a gap in his teeth like Terry Thomas!
M.Faivre was frustrated that he could not add to Tonys search...Could the reason be that M.Faivre could not find any information or a matching autopsy report because he never had Anthonys autopsy report to start with?These were for the men buried at St Venant whilst Anthony is actually in Haverskerque? Anyone know the Mayor of Haverskerque!

Best
Jim
30-07-2012, 01:00
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Good thinking, Ivor!

All men carried a single dose of morphine, if I'm not mistaken. Anthony could have taken his. But with German stretcher bearers already combing the area when the RSM left him, it is difficult to see how he would have been able to wait until dark before trying to escape capture. Also, with the bridge the only supply route for the Germans advancing on Haverskerque, it would have been a bad route to take, especially crawling in the dark. Even on a clear day the risk of being run over would have been great.

Supposing that he did so, and managed to get across the bridge, the only way north would have been along the roadside ditch, climbing over the occasional body, and it would have taken him straight into the midst of the German front line troops. Hiding in a house or shed and waiting for civvy help would have been a better choice.

In short, it's possble this is what happened, but the odds are against it.

John
30-07-2012, 01:05
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baconwallah

Good thinking, Ivor!

All men carried a single dose of morphine, if I'm not mistaken. Anthony could have taken his. But with German stretcher bearers already combing the area when the RSM left him, it is difficult to see how he would have been able to wait until dark before trying to escape capture. Also, with the bridge the only supply route for the Germans advancing on Haverskerque, it would have been a bad route to take, especially crawling in the dark. Even on a clear day the risk of being run over would have been great.

Supposing that he did so, and managed to get across the bridge, the only way north would have been along the roadside ditch, climbing over the occasional body, and it would have taken him straight into the midst of the German front line troops. Hiding in a house or shed and waiting for civvy help would have been a better choice.

In short, it's possble this is what happened, but the odds are against it.

John

John how about he did as Ivor suggested attempted to crawl away and like you rightly pointed out didnt make it but did get as far as the other side? You know what I`m going to say next...M.Berthe arrived and put him in that grave!!

Best

Jim
30-07-2012, 01:22
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

An overwhelming set of possibilities, Jim.

If Anthony crossed the bridge, he would have landed on the north side of the Lys quite some distance away from the bank - it was a long bridge, probably high enough to allow canal traffic, and that means that the bridge would have extended quite a bit beyond the bank or the access slope would have been too steep. Going from the bridge to the bank would then have meant moving away from his mates again. Of course it's possible, but I doubt it.

Assuming that Anthony did cross the bridge, your second scenario is interesting. I can find no argument against it.

Tony tells me that he had no useful reply from M Faivre, who then, later, told my friend that he could not find Anthony. So why had he not informed Tony? And in trying to find Anthony, did he look at the Ferme Boulet area only or did he also include HQ and the north bank in his search? Lacking a good channel of communication with M Faivre, it's impossible to say how his statement to my friend should be interpreted.

I included the email address for the Haverskerque Mairie in a previous post. I suggest Tony drops them a line.

John
30-07-2012, 01:26
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verrieres

John how about he did as Ivor suggested attempted to crawl away and like you rightly pointed out didnt make it but did get as far as the other side?

It's his getting to the other side, across a bridge with heavy traffic, crawling in the dark, that worries me. If he actually did so, and got across, it must have been the miracle of the century.

John
30-07-2012, 01:36
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Just for information purposes and to save a little time later should Tony wish to pursue an enquiry to Haverskerque.At the cemetery at Haverskeq there are twenty five known WW2 casualties and twenty unknowns.Our casualties which were named by M.Faivre are all buried in Row EE Row EE contains 31 Graves only thirteen are named graves.I will contact the CWGC to see if any of these `innconnu` have regimental markers/headstone rather than the plain `Known unto God` Headstones. This is a list of those who lie at peace in ROW EE. (We will remember them);-

ALDRIDGE, JAMES PETER
Rank:Private
Service No:5338050
Date of Death:25/05/1940
Regiment/Service:Royal Berkshire Regiment
1st Bn.
Grave ReferenceRow EE. Grave 13.
CemeteryHAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Harry James Aldridge and Mary Jane Aldridge, of Picket Twenty, Andover, Hampshire
COLLIER, KENNETH EDWARD
Rank:Lance Bombardier
Service No:914186
Date of Death:27/05/1940
Age:27
Regiment/Service:Royal Artillery
99 (The Royal Bucks.Yeomanry) Field Regt.
Grave ReferenceRow EE. Grave 26.
CemeteryHAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Edward and Daisy Collier; husband of Myrtle Irene Collier, of Ruislip, Middlesex.
DONALDSON, JOHN HENRY
Rank:Private
Service No:4444883
Date of Death:25/05/1940
Age:31
Regiment/Service:Durham Light Infantry
2nd Bn.
Grave ReferenceRow D. Grave 7.
CemeteryHAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Thomas and Beatrice Donaldson; husband of Winifred Donaldson, of Mill End, Rickmansworth, Hertfordshire
EVANS, JOHN ARTHUR NORMAN
Rank:Drummer
Service No:4192167
Date of Death:Between 26/05/1940 and 05/06/1940
Age:24
Regiment/Service:Royal Welch Fusiliers
1st Bn.
Grave ReferenceRow EE. Grave 3.
CemeteryHAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Alfred William and Bridget Evans; husband of Eleanor Evans, of Queen's Park, Wrexham, Denbighshire.
GODDING, VICTOR JAMES
Rank:Private
Service No:5332339
Date of Death:27/05/1940
Age:34
Regiment/Service:Royal Berkshire Regiment
1st Bn.
Grave ReferenceRow EE. Grave 23.
CemeteryHAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Ernest James Godding and Mary Godding; husband of Ethel D. M. Godding, of Slough, Buckinghamshire
HARRISON, HERBERT BERKELEY
Rank:Lieutenant Colonel
Service No:12194
Date of Death:27/05/1940
Age:43
Regiment/Service:Royal Welch Fusiliers
1st Bn.
Awards:M C
Grave ReferenceRow EE. Grave 1.
CemeteryHAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Brigadier-General Robert Arthur Gwynne Harrison, C.M.G., Three times mentioned in Despatches, and Alice Harrison, of King's Worthy, Hampshire; husband of Jeannette Marion Harrison, of Denbigh.
JOYNSON, PETER
Rank:Lance Corporal
Service No:5336849
Date of Death:25/05/1940
Age:19
Regiment/Service:Royal Berkshire Regiment
1st Bn.
Grave ReferenceRow EE. Grave 12.
CemeteryHAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Laurence Bright Joynson and Ethel Vera Joynson, of Warwick.
NEWTON, GERALD
Rank:Fusilier
Service No:4189917
Date of Death:Between 25/05/1940 and 30/05/1940
Age:25
Regiment/Service:Royal Welch Fusiliers
1st Bn.
Grave ReferenceRow EE. Grave 5.
CemeteryHAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of John and Elizabeth Newton.
PHILLIPS, ROY BRIGHTMAN
Rank:Second Lieutenant
Service No:124510
Date of Death:27/05/1940
Age:22
Regiment/Service:Durham Light Infantry
2nd Bn.
Grave ReferenceRow EE. Grave 22.
CemeteryHAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Theodore John Phillips M.B., B.S., and Hilda Ansom Phillips, of Tynemouth, Northumberland
PUNTIN, THOMAS
Rank:Private
Service No:4446397
Date of Death:27/05/1940
Age:33
Regiment/Service:Durham Light Infantry
2nd Bn.
Grave ReferenceRow EE. Grave 2.
CemeteryHAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of George and Ada Puntin, of Gateshead, Co. Durham; husband of Kathleen I. Puntin, of Dunston, Gateshead.
ROBERTS, GERARD BRIAN CHIPCHASE
Rank:Captain
Service No:50971
Date of Death:27/05/1940
Age:28
Regiment/Service:Durham Light Infantry
2nd Bn.
Grave ReferenceRow EE. Grave 30.
CemeteryHAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Lt.-Col. Gerard Chipchase Roberts, The Gloucestershire Regt. (killed in Action in France, 8th June, 1916), and of Winifred Milbanke Roberts (nee Hudson), of Hamsterley, Co. Durham.
SMITH, CYRIL STANLEY
Rank:Fusilier
Service No:4189967
Date of Death:25/05/1940
Age:25
Regiment/Service:Royal Welch Fusiliers
1st Bn.
Grave ReferenceRow EE. Grave 31.
CemeteryHAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Mrs. I. Smith, of Cardiff.
TINKLER, JOHN THOMAS
Rank:Lance Corporal
Service No:4455105
Date of Death:24/05/1940
Age:23
Regiment/Service:King's Own Royal Regiment (Lancaster)
6th Bn.
Grave ReferenceRow EE. Grave 4.
CemeteryHAVERSKERQUE BRITISH CEMETERY

Best
Jim
30-07-2012, 07:03
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Good Morning.
I really am going to have to stop these late night thinking sessions, I am loosing too much beauty sleep. I need all I can get.
But the accounts of RAF Pilots I referred to earlier got me thinking.
You mentioned a Café owned by a M Tavernier, or something like that. If this is not far from the Cemetery, then is it not likely that it would have been used by the HQ staff. As Anthony was a messenger then it is probable he would have been sent to the Café for fresh supplies of tea/coffee etc. quite often.

As they were in this position for a couple of days he would have got to know the owner.
Now as I said earlier if Goddard had given Anthony Morphine and others had given him theirs as they would not need them as POW’s , He could have enough for a couple of days. As soon as he found he could move, might he not have made for the Café where he had friends.(Owner/ Waitress?)
He could well have been here over night and next morning when the owner went off early to get supplies from a local farm (Farm Boulet) Anthony could have been hidden in the back of his wagon. Some RAF guys were hidden under loads of Hay or Turnips things like that.
If he was hidden in the barn, then the farmer and young lady (waitress?) did’nt find him. They knew he was there, from early morning 28^th until he was found sometime on 29^th by the SS. And I suspect that they were made to witness his shooting as punishment for helping him.
John, before you enter me for another Literary Award. Think very hard about this.
Jim and Tony say he was never posted missing. Why? Because he was with witnesses all the time who could account for him.
A number of the RAF guys were also shot. Because They Were In Civy Clothing given to them by the locals. If this happened to Anthony he could have been shot as a SPY. It was done.

Ivor.
30-07-2012, 10:19
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

A possible scenario, Ivor. Good thinking again. But although I like the love interest and the heroism of all involved, I do see a couple of flies in the ointment.

The DLI arrived late at night on the 25th. Men had already been killed in the past week, the survivors had had little sleep. Occasional shelling, enemy aircraft overhead, sounds of battle (B Coy RWF at Robecq) in the distance. The 26th was spent in feverishly organising the defences of the HQ farm. An attack could come at any moment. Not a very good time to go boozing and getting to know the natives in a café which was part of the outer defences (and therefore probably not functioning anyway). This wasn't Salisbury Plain or Hohne Camp, it was the front line in a fighting war.

With Germans all over the place, the French probably not back yet, wounds in both legs, drowsy from the morphine, a crawl of some 500 yards over shelled ground to the corner café is somewhat improbable.

Last but not least, if this is what happened he would not have been an anonymous body in a ditch. He would have been a local hero and M Faivre would have heard the story and mentioned it in his book.

John
30-07-2012, 12:34
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

John.
A couple of good points,however your feverish preparation of defenses, would a batman have a role in this or would he be more of a 'Gofer' and i am pretty sure while waiting for his order to be completed he would chat to whoever was doing it.and i said tea/coffee i did not mention Booze. But as i said before when the morphine kicked in it may have been possible for him to walk 500 meters, with difficulty to the cafe.
Also i thought, from a map you put on, that the front line appeared much further south.
While looking for something else i found the following.

http://www.worcestershireregiment.co...an_h_kallmeyer.

I was looking for any indication of the nature of Antony's wounds and in ww2 talk i found this post of yours Jim
''he states when he left your uncle he had minor wounds to both legs and neck but was quite well apart from this.RSM Goddard wished to take Anthony with them but the German soldiers present refused and said their field hospital units were in the area and would take care of him .Indeed RSM Goddard came across stretcher bearers shortly after they ''
John this might change the situation, as i was under the impression that i had read that he could not walk ? Jim could you clarify please.

Ivor
30-07-2012, 13:27
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

A very interesting link, Ivor! The translation is awful, though, looks like it was done by Google. Kallmeyer apparently served with the SS Verfügungsdivision, which on the 27th supported 3 Pz Div on the right flank and took part in the advance to Calonne and Merville. Unfortunately he gives no details of his activities on the 26th and 27th. On the 24th he seems to have been involved in the abortive German advance through St Venant, which late that night was recalled to the Aire canal on Hitler's orders.

I very much doubt the café was functioning as such when the DLI were on the scene. It had been incorporated in the defences [Townsend diary], which ran along the railway line south of St Venant (see the 1917 map in one of my earlier posts; both café and railway have since disappeared). I'm sure that, with an enemy attack expected at any moment, the owners of a café 150 yards behind the front line would have been advised to get the hell out of there, if they hadn't already reached that conclusion themselves.

Anthony would have been employed in organising the defences, with all the others. I doubt his position as batman to the RSM would have exempted him from those duties, at the time much more important than making tea (or going out to buy it) for his superior officer.

I was under the impression that Anthony was left on the canal bank precisely because he could not walk and the group of PoWs had to cross some difficult terrain (boggy meadows, heavily shelled no doubt) so could not carry him. "I certainly gained the impression that his wounds were not fatal. We wanted to take him with us but as we had no means of carrying him and the ground was very rough the German guards ordered us to make him comfortable and leave him to be collected by their field ambulance which was working in the vicinity."

John
30-07-2012, 14:37
jungle1810

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hello,
I have placed a diagram of the Rue Harrison in the forum photo it is off the Rue de Merville D 122 gallery I also put 2 more photos of the British Military Cemetery in the forum gallery as a point of interest. Regards RBD
30-07-2012, 15:39
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by vori101

John.
A couple of good points,however your feverish preparation of defenses, would a batman have a role in this or would he be more of a 'Gofer' and i am pretty sure while waiting for his order to be completed he would chat to whoever was doing it.and i said tea/coffee i did not mention Booze. But as i said before when the morphine kicked in it may have been possible for him to walk 500 meters, with difficulty to the cafe.
Also i thought, from a map you put on, that the front line appeared much further south.
While looking for something else i found the following.

http://www.worcestershireregiment.co...an_h_kallmeyer.

I was looking for any indication of the nature of Antony's wounds and in ww2 talk i found this post of yours Jim
''he states when he left your uncle he had minor wounds to both legs and neck but was quite well apart from this.RSM Goddard wished to take Anthony with them but the German soldiers present refused and said their field hospital units were in the area and would take care of him .Indeed RSM Goddard came across stretcher bearers shortly after they ''
John this might change the situation, as i was under the impression that i had read that he could not walk ? Jim could you clarify please.

Ivor

The letter...should read the letters!.....The one we are using is the Red Cross Varient following an appeal to Switzerland in 1941 from the British Red Cross at the request of Anthonys family.Only one enquiry was made to RSM Goddard who replied in September 1941 (I believe).There exists another letter that from the RSM to Anthonys family.The third and the one I was first aware of in relation to the minor/flesh wounds came from the son of RSM Goddard whom I was in contact with years before I became aware of Tonys quest.This situation troubled the RSM that much he spoke of it with his family. I had copies of all of them ...but now for the problem..I cannot find them! A few years ago a spectacular PC crash resulted in a lot of lost files ..most I recovered but the software I used to recover them renamed each file with a random number! Which makes it pretty hard to find any of my old files plus since this crash I have backed up my work on external hard-drives..just in case.I will come across them again when I have a little time a paragraph from the family letter was reproduced on my website it read;-

Quote:

"I heard your son's voice calling me from the canal bank. I immediately went over to him and found that he had a flesh wound in the neck also wounds in both legs. He was concious at the time and spoke to me quite rationally. I certainly gained the impression that his wounds were not fatal. We wanted to take him with us but as we had no means of carrying him and the ground was very rough the German guards ordered us to make him comfortable and leave him to be collected by their field ambulance which was working in the vicinity. We met some stretcher bearers shortly afterwards and informed them as to your sons whereabouts. The fighting in the area had ceased so that there was no apparent danger of him receiving further wounds."

Theres loads of my stuff on that WW2 Talk site but I do not post there any more.
On the subject of letters (and computer crashes) I have a copy of M.Faivres letter to Tony from May 2011.M.Faivre points out that he has had major problems due to his computer crashing and the files relating to St Venant are amongst them.He asks for all available information including a photograph of Anthony. He does point out he has many enquiries from relatives to deal with before he can look into this and has a major project opening in Cassel in May 2012 (I was there in June and its not finished!) He points out he was very lucky to identify Tom Rodgers and quotes another case where eyewitnesses to a soldiers death (Pte Fytche 2 DLI)were found, reports record as being killed on or around the 26th-27th yet the body is in RENESCURE CHURCHYARD reportedly killed on the 15th May 1940 some 12 days before ! He confirms he has all of the index cards and documents which the Mayor collected together in 1940 and asks for patience.
I will bottom out the letters issue.

Best

Jim
30-07-2012, 20:26
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Okay ,Found them apart from the one from RSM Goddards son which may have been an E-Mail on my last computer.RSM Goddard made his own enquiries whilst in the Camp and found no clue to Anthony`s fate (The letter is written in pencil and is very feint in parts) What is clear is RSM Goddard was NOT with Anthony at the time of his own capture he specifically said ;-

Quote:

I was captured on the 27th May 1940 at St Venant and as I was being moved to the rear I heard your son call out to me....

In relation to Anthonys wounds he lists the flesh wound to his neck then mentions the leg wounds..I may be reading too much into this but humour me particularly you Ivor as an ex-Police officer if you came across an injured party in the street when you call it in and request an ambulance which injuries would you list first?...The most serious? ie;- He has two gunshot wounds to his legs and a flesh wound to the neck. Its got me thinking that Ivor has a point , Anthony may have had trouble travelling over rough terrain but he may have had some mobility..?
Now I`m going to throw a spanner in the works! In the letter from Anthonys family to RSM Goddard after Goddards release there is a reference to the date of Anthonys capture given by the Red Cross(hopefully a typo) ...24th May 1940.
There is also mention of correspondance from, what I read as, Pte Towns (faded) of the Durham Light Infantry to Anthonys mother stating her son was in their camp suffering from memory loss and a stomach wound ? A mistaken identity very likely I do not know what happened to Pte Towns but there is no Pte Towns listed for the DLI in the 1945 PoW Roll???? I`ll go away and see what I can (if anything) find on Pte Towns.
Best

Jim

PS.Before I forget I found this image at the IWM Collection its from 1918 but it says it was one of the Bridges at St Venant??
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/...mein/large.jpg
30-07-2012, 20:37
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

The Pte Towns/Towne story is interesting. If it is true, he must have known and recognised Anthony.

The drawing shows the drawbridge across the Aire canal at la Pierrière. See my 1917 map [post #25], square P20. Seeing the bridge, it is obvious why the French army built a Pigeau bridge alongside it.

I wouldn't attach much importance to the order of the wounds as given by Goddard. No doubt, knowing his batman well, he looked at his face first of all and thus noticed the neck wound. Then he checked for other wounds.

John.
30-07-2012, 22:18
teecee1941

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Jim,

This probably means nothing but you never know. RSM Goddard, after speaking singularly, ''I heard his voice, I went over to him'' etc.. A sentence or two later he says ''We wanted to take him with us''......''.We had no means of carrying him''.........''The German guards ordered us to make him comfortable'' ---- If the situation went from 'I' to 'We', who were the others and when did they turn up? Most importantly, how far could they have carried him before the guards called a halt. If he wasn't gravely wounded, he may have been able to put up with a bit of discomfort before the carriers were made to put him down and leave him to be picked up by the stretcher bearers.

Another thing that keeps bugging me is this;- As RSM Goddard's batman, Anthony would surely have been quite well known to all the other lads. Well known enough to be recognised without the need to read his dog tags. If a few people saw him killed, it would have been immediately obvious who he was and the word would have went around that Goddard's batman had been killed. Seeing as how RSM Goddard survived the war, some time at the end of it, someone would have mentioned on the grapevine that they had heard that his batman had been killed. It is more likely of course that he was killed and nobody saw it. I suppose this all adds to the ever-growing list of 'What ifs'.
30-07-2012, 22:58
teecee1941

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Re Pte Towns;- I have the original letter sent by Anthony's father to RSM Goddard at the end of the war. It was forwarded to me by RSM Goddard's son a few months ago. When I read that Pte Towns had been in touch with the family to say that Anthony had been in the same camp as him with a stomach wound and loss of memory, I immediately dismissed this as a case of mistaken identity. The Red Cross say there are no records of Anthony being in a POW camp. In any case, the stomach wound is not consistent with what we already know. It is however, quite puzzling how Pte Towns managed to send a letter to Anthony's father 'once or twice' during the time he was in a POW camp. More puzzling is how did he get Anthony's family's address?

I did, a week or two ago, find another Corkhill in the DLI. Perhaps he was the one in the POW camp with the stomach wound but then again, how did Pte Towns get the correct address?

Is there anything in this story that is not a mystery?
30-07-2012, 23:07
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 John.
If this info re his wounds is correct then this really could make a massive difference. If we have a fairly mobile, with P/K’s, Anthony, then anything is possible. Getting to the Café would not have been a problem.
And in order for him not have been posted MIA his position must have been known. But by whom?
I still think my idea has merit, of course.:)

But I am wondering about my idea that Anthony may have been wearing ‘civies’, in order to get him out of the area. The problem with this is, if Anthony is not in uniform then the terms of the Geneva Convention no longer apply to him, and his lack of Dog Tags, make this even worse. This situation not only applied to RAF being aided with clothing by locals but also to Escaped POW’s. there are a number of instances of executions, as Spy’s, by the SS, in these sort of circumstances.
So their denial of shooting a soldier, would at least to them, be quite justified.

Now if my memory is correct then I think I read that the War Crimes Commission did not fully investigate one of the incidents which sort of seems odd.
Unless.( fantasy time John.)
If you have the report of a body, Shot by the SS, in front of witnesses. And the only means of ID are these witnesses, this is not good evidence. Hearsay and not acceptable.
I would think for an investigating officer, this is very difficult. You know what was going on. You know the witnesses are telling the truth. But you do not have official identification. So what can you do, record it, but you can not investigate it.
But that is not the most difficult part. Every one is looking for a Uniform, even M Faivre. If there is even the remotest possibility of this scenario. Then maybe someone should possibly have looked for an apparent civy with leg wounds.

Back to reality.
Jim, you are right I would have called the more serious first. But I tend to agree with John, a neck wound would be easier to spot then a minor leg wound.
But you know a stomach wound cold be anything from a scratch to something much more serious.
However the Memory loss could explain some odd things :-
Might it not account for his leaving his Dog Tags back in UK.
If RSM Goddard was aware of it as I assume he would if Pte Towns was aware of it.
might it not account for his apparent protection of Anthony.
But what ever caused this must have occurred before they left UK.
Very odd indeed.

ivor
30-07-2012, 23:13
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by teecee1941

The Red Cross say there are no records of Anthony being in a POW camp.

If it was indeed Anthony, the combination of missing dog tag and missing memory would have kept him out of the Red Cross books as Anthony Corkhill. He would be in the Red Cross books as "Anon" or whatever term they used. He wouldn't be the only one either.

John
30-07-2012, 23:20
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Ivor, M Faivre in his book describes the case of a wounded DLI soldier named Robert, who waited until the Germans had gone, found shelter in a house and several days later, when the locals returned, was lovingly cared for by them and taken to a civilian hospital. In the end he was betrayed and subsequently disappeared. If something like this had happened to Anthony, the locals would have known all about it and would still remember and re-tell the story. They don't.

Goddard only said "wounded in both legs", and that could be anything from superficial scratches to shell fragments close to the femoral arteries. I think it is a bit dangerous to accept Anthony was "fairly mobile" - if he was, why couldn't they take him with them? "We could not carry him" is what Goddard said. Apparently he needed to be carried.

John
31-07-2012, 00:19
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 John.
That was not that unusual there were instances of RAF lads who stayed with families for an extended period of time, until someone betrayed them. But this is not quite the same. This is possibly Anthony being moved out a matter of hours after his comrades, in the same direction in which they had gone, maybe putting him within a couple of miles of them. As we know they were in the Forest. And if this farm was supplying customers from the south, then it was very likely to have customers to the north.
Hmmm
This loss of memory intrigues me as I said in my previous post. But I would be surprised if any record would be found in his Med Records. But, Tony, if Goddard was protecting his old friend because of it, he may not have been that well known. However if his Med Record is available it might make interesting reading. the same if we could come up with a P/M Report.
With regard to the idea of Anthony becoming a local hero. I think in the situation it would be a case of, If you don’t know you can’t tell, so maybe the only people who knew were the St Venant people and the farmer.

Ivor
31-07-2012, 00:46
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

A little more information for you regarding the Private who contacted the Corkhill Family I eventually found a Pte Towns the only DLI Towns anyway...4448417 Pte J A towns Prisoner of war number 3500 Camp in 1945 Stalag 21B his number gives me an enlistment date of between 24th January 1930 to 7th May 1931.Anthony Corkhill was in the next intake enlisting between 1st May 1931 and march 1933(Source Army Form B 358)
I have also read here that Tony has found another Corkhill who served with the Durham Light Infantry I know of a Pte H Corkhill also a Prisoner of War ,PoW number 32341 Stalag 344.4866292 Pte H Corkhill originally enlisted in the Leicestershire Regiment.
There also appears to be another Diary/Biography with a Chapter/Section on the mans capture at St venant.Unpublished account by Lt M Farr 2 DLI Signals I`ve tracked down the original to the Durham Records Office in Durham city.
Best
jim
31-07-2012, 13:21
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

M Faivre in his book recounts the experiences of the villagers. Some remained in St Venant itself, sheltering in their cellars, but most people had fled or had been evacuated and these did not return until May 29th at the earliest. Some did not return until June.

He knows of only two cases where British soldiers received civilian help, One was the soldier named Roger, described in my previous post. The other case concerned two men who had sheltered in a barn in Robecq, were given civilian clothes and left for Merville but then found themselves in the middle of a German convoy and were either captured or shot.

If Anthony had received civilian help in getting away, there would still be a local memory of the fact. There isn't. I think we can discount this one.

Having checked the witness statements of the St Venant War Crimes commission, it appears that atrocities were committed to the west of St Venant, in the southern part of St Venant itself (the hospital) and further east in Calonne and Merville. I can find no reports of atrocities along the canal bank in the cemetery - Taverne Farm area.

Summing up, I think we have only two possibilities:

- Anthony died where he was left by RSM Goddard, either from his wounds or because he was murdered.
- Anthony was evacuated by the German stretcher bearers and either died in a field hospital (the one at Merville being the most likely) for whatever reason or very possibly ended up in a PoW camp with memory loss due to his experiences or new wounds (the St Venant area was still within range of British artillery when the PoWs were being rounded up by the Germans).

Anything else contains too many 'ifs' for my liking.

John
31-07-2012, 20:36
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 John.
Sadly at the moment IF’s are all we have, not very satisfying, The only Eye Witnesses we have at the moment are the Major. And RSM Goddard with regard to Anthony’s wounds, possibly. And the couple who witnessed his murder, if that was Anthony. And he could have been any where along the canal.
He could have been picked up by the German’s which could put him in the Calonne Aid Post, which I would favour, or maybe somewhere else ????
Goddard might of underestimated his wounds so he might have died where he was. He might have died at the aid post.
If his wounds were superficial, with a shot of Morphine he could have been reasonably mobile. ETC,ETC.
Believe me this is an investigative nightmare. But I did not expect anything else. This Is a major challenge, but I am not about to give up any time soon.
I may be throwing seemingly impossible scenario’s, they are all based on aspects of what we know, with interpretation. You found a book, Jim found a café. I am waiting for info as to why we have a Rue De Col Harrison. I am trying to test one aspect of the Majors Evidence. We can not accept the RSM and ignore the Major.
What we need is a large flash of inspired genius or a bit of Divine Guidance. But I suspect that it will be down to good old fashioned spade work.
Right.
TeeCee. A question if I may, and I hope you won’t think me cheeky. But I am trying to get an idea of what Anthony may have been capable of.
So if you are willing could you give us an idea of what Anthony was like, for example was he the sort of person who could overcome minor leg wounds and carry on.

Ivor.
31-07-2012, 21:42
teecee1941

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by vori101

John.
Sadly at the moment IF’s are all we have, not very satisfying, The only Eye Witnesses we have at the moment are the Major. And RSM Goddard with regard to Anthony’s wounds, possibly. And the couple who witnessed his murder, if that was Anthony. And he could have been any where along the canal.
He could have been picked up by the German’s which could put him in the Calonne Aid Post, which I would favour, or maybe somewhere else ????
Goddard might of underestimated his wounds so he might have died where he was. He might have died at the aid post.
If his wounds were superficial, with a shot of Morphine he could have been reasonably mobile. ETC,ETC.
Believe me this is an investigative nightmare. But I did not expect anything else. This Is a major challenge, but I am not about to give up any time soon.
I may be throwing seemingly impossible scenario’s, they are all based on aspects of what we know, with interpretation. You found a book, Jim found a café. I am waiting for info as to why we have a Rue De Col Harrison. I am trying to test one aspect of the Majors Evidence. We can not accept the RSM and ignore the Major.
What we need is a large flash of inspired genius or a bit of Divine Guidance. But I suspect that it will be down to good old fashioned spade work.
Right.
TeeCee. A question if I may, and I hope you won’t think me cheeky. But I am trying to get an idea of what Anthony may have been capable of.
So if you are willing could you give us an idea of what Anthony was like, for example was he the sort of person who could overcome minor leg wounds and carry on.

Ivor,

I certainly don't think you are cheeky and I don't mind answering any questions. Sadly, Anthony died 18 months before I was born but I've always 'known him'. I was always aware that he had died in the war from the time I became aware of what was going on around me. In 1945, when I was four, I can remember my parents discussing the fact that he had been wounded and the ground was too rough to manhandle him to hospital. As I grew up it became more and more apparent that he was never going to be found it was obvious that his siblings had been extremely fond of him.

I do know that he was quite a sensitive, reserved person not given to getting into drunken fights or arguments. My mother always said that he had been a lovely man, kind, reliable and unselfish. From what I know of him, I am sure that he would have suffered his wounds in a soldierly way because my father once described him as always 'being happy with his lot, he didn't want any fuss'

I realise that it is difficult to descibe a relative without being too generous but this is the way his family spoke of him.

Ivor.
31-07-2012, 23:36
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 TeeCee.
Thank you. That was good of you. I appreciate it.
Sounds like a good guy. And you know, Tony, that people like Anthony who are ‘’ happy with their lot’’ often do remarkable things.
I have met many Anthony’s in my 68 yrs and I know I would prefer to have a bunch of them around in a tight spot. Generally keep a cool head.
So I am quite happy with the idea that he would do whatever he could to get out of there and get back to his unit, rather than sit around waiting to be captured, if he could.
Thanks again.

Ivor.
01-08-2012, 18:09
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

As promised I have made some enquiries with the CWGC in relation to Unknowns buried at St Venant ,Merville and more recently Haverskerque.The first reply dealing with St Venant and Merville was received today and is set out below:-

Quote:

I would explain that attempts were made during both world wars to locate and register graves, but in battlefield areas many soldiers were never buried, and the graves of those who were buried were sometimes destroyed in subsequent fighting, or temporary grave markers were lost or became illegible. In areas which were lost to the enemy or were very close to the front line, graves registration was often delayed for months, or even years. The Commission does not have information on the circumstances of death and initial disposal of remains for servicemen and women with no known grave.<O:P></O:P>
Having checked our archival documents I can confirm that no unknown casualty that served with the Durham Light Infantry is buried in St. Venant Communal cemetery or Merville Cemetery.<O:P></O:P>
I hope you find this information useful.<O:P></O:P>
Yours sincerely<O:P></O:P>

<O:P></O:P>

Argy Francis (Mrs)<O:P></O:P>

Enquiries Administrator<O:P></O:P>

Hopefully the reply dealing with Haverskerque will be more encouraging.

Best

Jim
01-08-2012, 19:26
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

If I'm not mistaken, St Venant and Merville together have 58 unknowns. CWGC records show that none of these were DLI - hard to believe.

Unknowns come in two varieties, totally unknown and partially unknown i.e. only the rank or regiment is known. Of those casualties of which the regt is known. none served with the DLI. OK, I can accept that. But how about the really unknowns, I wonder?

John
01-08-2012, 20:54
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baconwallah

If I'm not mistaken, St Venant and Merville together have 58 unknowns. CWGC records show that none of these were DLI - hard to believe.

Unknowns come in two varieties, totally unknown and partially unknown i.e. only the rank or regiment is known. Of those casualties of which the regt is known. none served with the DLI. OK, I can accept that. But how about the really unknowns, I wonder?

John

I believe they have answered my direct question rather well....I never asked if any of the unknowns were DLI ..of course if they are total unknowns they are exactly that.This was the question I posed to the CWGC .In hindsight I should have posted both Question and answer.Sorry for any confusion.

Quote:

Comments: I wonder if you can tell me if there are any headstones at St Venant Communal Cemetery and Merville Cemetery from the May 1940 period which are known to be from The Durham Light Infantry but whose personal details are unknown ie The unknown headstone bears a DLI Regimental crest ? Any help you can provide would greatly assist in tracing the last movements of a friends uncle Pte Anthony Corkhill who is commemorated on the Dunkirk Memorial and is listed as died on the 29th May 1940.Thank you

Best
jim
01-08-2012, 21:15
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Pity the CWGC didn't add how many headstones have a regimental crest, out of the 58 unknowns.

John
01-08-2012, 22:02
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Hi All
I have been reviewing earlier stuff ,before I got involved and in post 6 and 10 ap1 quotes from the RWF diary. Whilst we are in agreement that they may be I bit suspect it’s all we have.
It states that HQ Coy tried to withdraw to Haverskirque but in the course of the withdrawal suffered heavy casualties from mortar fire.
So does this put what is left of HQ Coy in Haverskirque, not the cemetery, or Calonne, Or did they fall back ??? any info ??
BN HQ, what remained of D Co the rest of A and C Co’s under Capt Pritchard were still at St Venant, where’s Col Harrison?
A and C Co’s were ordered to take up position on 2 DLI’s left flank holding the St Venant – Calonne Rd.( St Floris Eastwards ?)
Would I be right in assuming that the diary would be kept at HQ which now could be at Haverskirque. Which would explain one puzzle, I was’nt really aware that there was a HQ Co. I thought there where only Bde,Bn and Co HQ’s. or is this Brigade HQ
This might explain something else, which I will come to later.
In post 10 is the report that the bridge was blown, can we ignore YDG for now and concentrate on what we have,
The bridge is blown, A and C Co’s together with the remnant of D Co 2DLI are spread somewhere to the east. The only way over the Lys is to swim, under fire they take 30% casualties, seems reasonable so far, but one problem, where is Col Harrison?.
Well Major Townsend sees him crossing fields towards Haverskirque, towards HQ?
Did he swim the Lys?
At this point the Brigadier decides to relocate to La Motte, this I assume is La Motte De La Bois a small village on the road north from Merville, on the eastern side of the Foret De Neippe. As to how they got there I have no idea, they may have gone east through La Corbe then north somewhere, without having to go as far as Merville.
Now this is not fantasy, well maybe the Col swimming the Lys, it is based on
The 2 diaries, somewhat at odds with YDG.
So where is the Colonel. ?
My purpose in this post is to try and prove why we have to try and find fresh evidence. Using the Diary’s, even if suspect, give a totally different account than YDG.
So which is right.

ivor
01-08-2012, 23:45
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Dont' use the WD, Ivor, it's full of errors.

Capt Clough-Taylor is stated to have been killed during the withdrawal of HQ Coy to Haverskerque. He wasn't. He crossed the bridge with Col Harrison - his own statement, written in captivity, was used for the YDG article.

Dr Lundie is stated to have been missing after a direct hit on Bn HQ at 0600. He wasn't, he was at his Aid Post in a farm along the Haverskerque road where he was captured on the 27th.

Lt Hood is stated to have been missing after the direct hit on Bn HQ at 0600. He wasn't, he was killed later that morning firing an anti-tank rifle in the cemetery.

Bn HQ was not shelled until 0800.

The entries for the 24th and 25th speak of a withdrawal. It wasn't, it was an advance.

The bridge is stated to have been blown. It wasn't, as the sappers had disappeared.

Troops of A Coy are stated to have swum the canal. They didn't. What was left of A Coy was captured in a farm where they had tried to make a last stand.

And so on.

The WD would have been kept by Lt Hood, the Adjutant. After he was killed, the WD was completed (or summarised because the real WD was missing, which seems likely) by the survivors of 1 RWF - two 2/Lts, the QM and sixty men. The 2/Lts and QM surely made a brave attempt, but none of them had any idea of what had been going on outside his immediate surroundings. The WD reflects that.

John
02-08-2012, 00:26
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

John.
The problem is, we can not trust either.At least the W.D. was written by people whose memory, may have been a bit fresher than POW's writing 2/3 yrs later.
We have to find something fresh, like Jim's Cafe, which opens the possibility of a new line of enquirey or the possibility that Anthony's wounds may have been superficial, and he could have been to a degree mobile.
Is there any possibility that a place like the I.W.M. has anything or has someone already checked them.
I think i might send them an e mail,and see what we get.

ivor
02-08-2012, 11:53
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Form the foreword to the series of YDG articles:

"The account which follows has been compiled from the personal recollections of the surviving officers
of the Battalion who were taken prisoners of war. It was taken down at an early date, in the form of rough
notes which had to be concealed from the prison camp authorities. After a lapse of about three years,
when conditions in the camps became easier, it was transcribed into its present form and was
subsequently typed out on return to England.

Being based on the personal recollections of a limited number of officers it is inevitable that a certain
amount of the story has not been recorded. Three of the surviving officers were platoon commanders who
cannot be expected to know much about what went on outside of their own relatively small orbit. Both
the officers from Battalion Headquarters were sometimes away on missions at the same time and
something may have been lost to the narrative from this cause. In the final action at St-Venant, the
Battalion was widely deployed and from certain sub-units such as C Company, there was no one
available to tell the tale of the last few hours. The account is accurate, however, to the extent that
whatever has been written down has been vouched for by an officer who was present at the time."

Considerably more reliable than the WD, and the best we have.

John
02-08-2012, 23:28
teecee1941

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Something which has puzzled me for a few days now;- RSM Goddard stated that he was captured 'on the morning of the 27th May'. He goes on to say that he found Anthony lying on the canal bank, near the village......and that, 'the fighting in the area had ceased'. I would guess that he was still referring to the morning because he does not say 'later that day' or 'some time later' and besides the time he was allowed to spend with his batman would have been curtailed by the guards. Had he been able to spend an unlimited amount of time with Anthony, I am sure he would have written about it.

My point is this;- I have read two or three times recently that the fighting finished around 20-30hrs. So, why did he indicate that the fighting had finished in the morning. No doubt there'll be a simple explanation, but for the moment, it's got me beaten.

Tony
02-08-2012, 23:45
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by teecee1941

My point is this;- I have read two or three times recently that the fighting finished around 20-30hrs.

Brig Furlong crossed the bridge into St Venant at approx 09:15. Having spoken to Maj Owen (2 i/c 1 RWF) the Brigadier left it to Col Harrison when withdrawal should begin and the order reached him around 11:00. Since the RWF had only 30 to 40 men left, they were immediately sent back across the bridge in ones and twos. DLI HQ had already been cut off by the advancing German tanks along the tow path. Fighting must have finished well before mid day. By 16:30 the front line had moved to le Touquet, north of Haverskerque.

John
02-08-2012, 23:53
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Hi All.
John mon ami you have my greatest respect for the tenacity with which you defend YDG. Your latest post gives it impressive credentials.
However, I have serious doubts that it would be accepted as evidence. Only the original documents would be acceptable. Once a document is transcribed it can be open to challenge. You know quite well how easy it is to make slight errors when transcribing from hand written documents. The Majors Diary would have more evidential value.
This is why I believe we have to find something different.

Ivor.

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