saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hi All.

Thanks for the info Jim, when exactly did the photos emerge for sale. was it since the start of this thread, if so maybe someone has realised that money could be made out of them. But what else may be out there. I may be a suspicious old sod but if they did appear after we started this investigation i just may detect a slight whiff of a certain Frenchman. Of course i may be totally wrong.
But the main purpose of this post is something different.
I am, probably like yourselves, somewhat puzzled, even annoyed, by the reluctance of the Authorities to come up with the info. I can think of 2 reasons for this,
First. they DO NOT HAVE IT. if so WHY? was it lost,Buried, a long time ago for some reason. possibly to protect reputations ?
Second. is it covered by the 70 odd year rule, if so why not say so.

Now i am going to ask for your help for the next part, because i do not know how to do it, or if it at all possible.

Under the Freedom Of Information Act. what is the basis for a request.
What i am thinking of is it possible to request, if it is available, the records of the German Aid Post at Calonne.
My thinking is this. We know who are buried in Calonne but we do not know if they died in the Aid Post. Also the record should have the names of persons admitted and when. If as i believe there is a possibility that Anthony could have been taken there, then this is a way of establishing this possibility.
But i am not sure where a record of this nature would be , would it be with U.K. Authorities as it dealt with British Personnel, or would it have been retained by the Germans. But some record must exist somewhere.

ivor

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

The records of the aid post, if they were kept at all, and if they survived, are not in German archives or my friends would have found them by now.

John

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

John,
Thanks. That is what i thought, but, if they survived, they must be somewhere.
I would have thought that they would have been available to those working on the 41/2 clearances or how else could they have obtained exact info re Dof D. especially those bodies removed from the School Field

ivor

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Ivor go here mate, https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/body/mod

Remember though they will not accept or reply to generalisation requests they must be specific also IF the documents come under the 75 year rule then they will not release them under any circumstances until the date of expiry. If the documents contain reference to Organisations like SOE or SIS (MI6) or people that later served in those departments in any way then they will not be released until 2030.

Cheers

Dave

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Dave.
Thanks for the link.Believe me my request will be most specific.. will keep you all informed.

ivor

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

No probs Ivor, only mentioned the SOE/SIS beacause i have found out a fair bit more about what dad was up to when he came out of hospital after Dunkirk, when we meet i will explain but i reckon you could hazard a guess from what we have discussed in the past.

:twitcy::shocked::coolicon:

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

The official dates of death appear to have been wild guesses at best. The men in the Robecq Road mass grave were all killed 27/05 and buried within a day or two. Yet dates of death according to the CWGC vary from 21/05 to 08/11. Not much good to build your case on.

John

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hi Guys.
Dave , i fully agree with your comments re SIS/SOE. I will be back in U.K. from 15 July for about 5 weeks so we may well be able to arrange to meet.

John. i Fully agree with you with regard to the D o D, with regard to the Majority of those KIA. But the circumstances of the men who died in the Field Hospital or in any other Hospital,surely, must be somewhat different.
Even if only Minimum Records were kept, Surely they would contain, Name, Date of Admission, Nature of Injury, Date of Release to PoW Or DoD.
I would have thought that would have been a requirement of Geneva Convention.

ivor

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

This is not strictly relevant to the thread but it may help to explain why we hit walls if there is any mention of anyone that later served with the SOE or SIS in the records then the following sent to me my an expert in the subject will apply, it may even be the reason why i get no replys from the Wardrobe on any enquirys i make to them about St Venant. Because dad going on to "special ops" and spending a lot of time at Shorncliffe because it had an airstrip and was only a short hop to France, when asked why he did this he said hey wanted people who knew northern France and spoke very good French

 The SOE was to some extent a law unto itself in how it was staffed and operated, due to its very constitution it had no formal existence in the armed services so they either made up its units as pure fiction (the classic example of this is that of Major Woods 'E.S.6. (WD)' at Aston House) or contrived a suitable cover unit (eg I.S.R.B). In many cases already serving military personnel seconded to the SOE retained their unit identity (especially where special or tactical knowledge was their particular skill) however the pool is also muddied by the fact that the SOE not being a recognized unit during WW2 had a high level of effectively civilian upper management (albeit 'commissioned')... traditionally the espionage world is populated by people who know people rather than people who applied for the job.

SOE papers do exist in TNA, and slowly they are being made public domain however as you say personnel files are by Chancellors order retained for 100 years (on the assumption of individuals birth in 1930) if the individual is either proven or thought to be alive. However SOE personnel files of surviving/living members can be accessed by the member without restriction (post 2003 from memory).... but, the decision was made that any file of a living member that contains information of a member thought or proven to be alive will still be restricted without formal consent of that individual too.

So in reality this is a bit of a daisy chain as in most cases one document relates to another and that relates to another an so on...... but it is by no means a fait accompli.

Information on accessing the SOE files at TNA is obviously on the TNA website, I cant be 100% sure but in the past they were under the purview of Howard Davies in the Records Management Department. File statement: Special Operations Executive: Personnel Files (PF Series) code: HS9

It is also worth noting, that although the files initially can only be accessed by the surviving SOE member, once this has been done and there is no restricted material within they be released for family/public viewing if the member gives formal permission in writing to the appropriate archivist.

Last bit of advice I can give on the topic so far is that as suspect a large proportion of the SOE documentation was possibly destroyed by fire at the end of the war whilst in storage at Baker Street (many I have spoken with have some suspicion over this fact.. or more to the point if this was accidental or deliberate!). Below is the TNA statement put out when there files were released and there was a lot of dismay at the gaping holes...

..."SOE's archive is confused and incomplete. To some extent this is due to the haste and piecemeal fashion in which the organisation developed. For reasons of security no central registry was kept and each branch kept its own papers according to its own filing system. Toward the end of the war there was an attempt to reclassify the papers by subject, irrespective of origin. Only about a quarter of this task was completed in 1946 and as a result two unfinished systems of classification were left. Moreover two major destruction exercises took place, firstly the Oriental mission in Singapore destroyed it files in light of the pending Japanese advance and secondly the Middle Eastern Mission in Cairo, one of SOE's largest foreign stations, similarly destroyed its records as the Germans approached Alexandria. Instructions were subsequently issued for all surviving papers to be sent home after weeding of ephemeral material (Massingham, the Algiers base operating in France, destroyed virtually all its records with the exception of the personal files). Furthermore, a drastic weeding exercise was carried out by inexperienced staff in London. A fire in late 1945 also accounted for a further unknown number of files. Suggested subjects include Finance, FANY, Belgium and Poland. As a result an estimated 85% of SOE records held in London were destroyed..." The National Archive 2002

If your father was with SIS TNA will be a greater help as SIS was much better organised (being of military decent), they held a full Registry unit (incidentally based not far away in St Albans).


Sorry in advance if this bores you witless
Cheers

Dave

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hello,
My apologies for using this thread to mention some good books. I am unable to get into the "Recommend a book section"I can recommend the following books.
"Shot at Dawn by Julian Putowski and Julian Sykes the book lists all the men shot at Dawn with little pen pictures of the badges of the regiments they served in and full details of why they were arrested and the charges that led to their execution.
"Great battles of World War one" By Anthony Livesy. This book contains 20 of the battle sites in the Great War with photos and maps plus a Gazetteer which provides details of the battle sites mentioned in the book Flanders, The Somme, The Verdun area, with many useful addresses.
"Defeat at Gallipoli" by Nigel Steel &Peter Hart. This book contains maps and a definitive story of this campaign.
Regards R B D aka jungle1810