saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hello Everyone,
Just a very brief update Tony met with his MP who,with his secretary,were familiar with Anthony Corkhills disappearance and fully supportive of Tonys search for answers .The MP has sent off to the MoD requesting the information or to be put in touch with somone who can find it. The initial enquiry was met with our similar ` lets try and put them off again` letter stating very few records had been retained and most had now been destroyed..Rubbish of course.
Tony has spoken with the two representatives in the MoD and CWGC and they confirm they are still looking (which considering they first stated they had nothing to look at in the first instance is quite remarkable!) Its a waiting game.
One interesting point is the letter the MP drafted up in relation to the wearabouts of Forms Q in the letter it stated the ` MI9 form Q` quite correct of course but strangely enough ..we never mention this was MI9s form...a sign that the MP has done some homework on the matter prior to his letter to the MoD? Lets hope so.
A rather disappointing outcome to the Northern Echo line who after showing a little initial interest have cooled with `so busy have not the time to look into this` apparantly its been passed to another section.I have asked them to contact Tony via his email if nothing happens soon then the story will be off to another news paper!
A couple of weeks ago we tracked down a delightful 2DLI veteran celebrating his 100th birthday. Tony had a long chat with him but unfortunately he did not recall Anthony. He did state he doubted Anthony would have been an RSMs batman in war time which bears out the theory that Anthony filled this role pre war possibly in India or the Sudan..did I say a brief update Sorry!
Best

Jim

Jim do you not think the MP may have been aproached over this by someone in authority in the MOD before you and Tony got in touch, the fact he put the correct designation on the request would seem to suggest that just maybe he had. Or of course he just may have had a background in that sort of area and have known anyway. Nice to here about the Veteran i assume from this Anthony was in the Army during the times that the Battalion was serving in either of these areas ?. I have an idea that he may well be correct in saying that the RSM would not have had a batman during the war even many officers had to do without so far as i can make out (could be wrong on that though) after all the men had far more important things to do than making tea and maintaining the officers (and RSM,s) uniforms etc like fighting the enemy and staying alive.

Probobly wrong on this but thats my feelings for what they are worth.

Cheers now

Dave

Hi Guy's
Dave i have a suspicion that you may be right. I would expect the MP to have had a briefing from someone in authority over this. Hence his knowledge.

Jim.With regard to Anthony no longer, officially, being the RSM's batman. i would agree, but, is there a possibility that he may have, unofficially, continued to be. What i was wondering is, if the story of Anthony being a DR was correct would this post have allowed him to continue, in some limited way, with his previous duties. I am assuming that a DR would have been, generally, somewhere close to a HQ where it might be reasonable to expect the RSM to be.
Just a thought.


ivor

Ivor i suspect we may be taking the term batman to literaly it may be that RSM,s clerk would be a more appropriate term for Anthonys duties. Just a thought mate.

Dave.
While i accept your point. Would it really change my idea. Would it have been possible for him to have carried out the RSM's Clerical Duties on a temp basis and still be a DR.

ivor

Certainly Ivor indeed DR may well of been part of his duties as a clerk.

Hi Everyone,
What ever duties Anthony was performing that day as John pointed out a while back is not (yet) our main concern as the facts that we have show the RSM and Anthony in the same area hence the meeting on the canal bank.
In relation to the MP it was Tony who met him and Tony stated they were up to speed on the matter.In relation to the MI9 reference I believe that someone has briefed him yet the MoD and CWGC still deny any knowledge of Forms Q so who advise the MP about them?

A further update for you chaps Tony applied and received a copy of Anthonys death certificate cause of death ;-DIED of Wounds (Not believed to have Died of Wounds!!) Date of death 29th May 1940.....29th MAY 1940...bear this in mind people because you are not going to belive the next bit!

Tonys CWGC contact has been in touch in relation to the unknown soldier next to Syd Walt..their enquiries have established that this lad is a BRITISH ARMY CORPORAL who died sometime in MAY they do not have the exact date of death (Not bad going as they told me they did not hold records of unknowns yet they know this lad was a CORPORAL? why not AN UNKNOWN BRITISH CORPORAL KNOWN UNTO GOD HEADSTONE?) Moving on the CWGC can confirm only one soldier of the DURHAM LIGHT INFANTRY died on the 29th May 1940 Pte Syd Walt???????????????? Wheres Anthony then as its now established on his Death Certificate he too died on the 29th MAY 1940 even their own website states the 29th MAY 1940
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/ca...ILL,%20ANTHONY

The CWGC update is amaturish in the extreme it contradicts its own website and to me it seems to have been passed to a junior clerk who has done a little more than a standard search passed it to his boss who has then read it out as it is written not bothering to check the information and hoping again this will go away! It won`t when will they get the message they are simply adding fuel to our fire?
The MP seems no fool will he accept this explaination hopefully not.

Best

Jim

Jim, from my experience the problem with the MOD may be down to the fact that we are haing to lose one third of full time workers therefore policy is to not deal with anything they consider unimportant. This may be very important to Anthony but less so to the MOD.
Other factor may well be that many posts in the department are now filled by Agency or short term workers who with the best will in the world will not have the knowledge of records, forms and proceedures etc that full time long serving civil servants would, in my own area for instance over 60% of people fall into the Agency or short term workers and the few full time workers are now fielding most queries. This doesnt excuse the fact they say they have no knowledge of Q forms but it may explain why they are saying this.
My belief is that this problem is caused by government cut backs in the department and employing agency workers who know they can be told we dont need you tomorrow at any time. Not sure about the CWGC though it may be they have the same problem.

Sorry but this still smacks of a cover up for some reason.

The death cert is interesting as has been noted elsewhere saying DIED OF WOUNDS would suggest that someone witnessed his death and this is i believe the crucial area for us. As for who has advised the MP about the M19 Q form obviously some one higher up in the MOD IS taking an interest in this because it would in my opinion have been a senior civil servant advisor (or a VERY senior military officer). Was the MP told of this before Anthony contacted him personaly or after because if it was before then once more an attempted cover up is suggested to me.


Cheers

Dave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dcdl12976

Jim, from my experience the problem with the MOD may be down to the fact that we are haing to lose one third of full time workers therefore policy is to not deal with anything they consider unimportant. This may be very important to Anthony but less so to the MOD.
Other factor may well be that many posts in the department are now filled by Agency or short term workers who with the best will in the world will not have the knowledge of records, forms and proceedures etc that full time long serving civil servants would, in my own area for instance over 60% of people fall into the Agency or short term workers and the few full time workers are now fielding most queries. This doesnt excuse the fact they say they have no knowledge of Q forms but it may explain why they are saying this.
My belief is that this problem is caused by government cut backs in the department and employing agency workers who know they can be told we dont need you tomorrow at any time. Not sure about the CWGC though it may be they have the same problem.

Sorry but this still smacks of a cover up for some reason.

The death cert is interesting as has been noted elsewhere saying DIED OF WOUNDS would suggest that someone witnessed his death and this is i believe the crucial area for us. As for who has advised the MP about the M19 Q form obviously some one higher up in the MOD IS taking an interest in this because it would in my opinion have been a senior civil servant advisor (or a VERY senior military officer). Was the MP told of this before Anthony contacted him personaly or after because if it was before then once more an attempted cover up is suggested to me.


Cheers

Dave

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Morning Dave,
To be fair to the MoD they are very quiet on the matter I believe the only `info` recieved directly from them was the `brush off letter` since then Tony has spoken with the contact who as far as we know is `still looking into it`. The latest info is from the CWGC who throughout this have constantly denied holding anything! The information or lack of it concerning the `unknowns`,to me anyway, is unacceptable during and after the war the War Office instigated `Searcher Parties for those unaccounted for they produced `Missing Men files` for EVERY regiment including the DLI yet Anthony appears in none of them..again I`m repeating what I`ve stated from the beginning and what I know a lot of you agree with ,,,why Anthony was never featured was he was never missing he was `DEAD ,DIED OF WOUNDS 29th MAY 1940` We realised this a long time ago so why can they not see it and concentrate on finding answers not repeatedly going over old ground.
Instead of stating wrongly that only 1 DLI soldier died on the 29th May 1940 why do they not look at their records to see if by any chance they hold a record of one of these unfortunate souls having died on the 29th May 1940? Or another line of enquiry would be if Syd,having been wounded on the 27th like Anthony died in a hospital and which one then by checking with these records perhaps a second casualty having died on the same day could perhaps be identified?
Another dissappointing `error` again from the CWGC is contained in Tonys most recent reply where the contact stated,and I`m quoting direct from the reply letter here

Quote:

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The cemetery records also detail several further unknowns with a May 1940 date of death in Row A, Plot 3 and there are a total of 50 unknowns buried at St. Venant.

I can also confirm that Sydney Walt is the only DLI casualty with a date of death of 29/5/1940, although as indicated above several unknowns have been allocated a May 1940 date of death.

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50 Unknowns.........................50 Unknowns.............where have the other ten appeared from as John and myself worked out the full list from the CWGC cemetery plan! Below is another quote this time from the CWGC site itself notice the glaring error!

Quote:

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During the 1939-45 War, St. Venant was the centre of heavy fighting when delaying actions covered the withdrawal of the British Expeditionary Force to the coast. In fact British troops continued fighting at St. Venant after the evacuation of Dunkirk, and 90 or more were buried in a mass grave in a field at St. Venant. The 1939-45 burials are in Plots III and IV.

There are 253 Commonwealth burials of the 1914-18 war, 10 of which are unidentified, and 177 of the 1939-1945 war, 40 of which are unidentified, in this site. The 1939-45 total includes the 90 originally buried in a mass grave and an officer who is commemorated by a special memorial inscribed "Believed to be".

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So now we have had quoted wrongly `only one DLI died on the 29th May Syd Walt` We are unaware of any mass grave at St Venant` `There are 50 unknowns` is it incompetance or just plain laziness? If you are right Dave and this is unimportant to the MoD or is being dealt with by people on short term contracts I have this to say `This country should honour its fallen,sadly it does not the organisations there to commemorate them produce range upon range of glossy brochures and forget their core responsibilities.Those on short contracts would they really not bother? If so then they are,again in my opinion ,in the wrong job! Every November this country makes a great fuss at the Cenotaph `remembering` but do we remember for the right reasons not if we as a country do not support families like the Corkhills whose sons,brothers,uncles grandfathers have given all ,and are then forgotten or not deemed important enough for the relevant organisations to `bother themselves` with outstanding issues. Sad

Best

Jim

Hi Jim i agree with most of what you say, however ref the CWGC it may be that like every department you get a dfifferent person every time you make an enquiry which means that if they dont talk to each other you WILL get the same ground covered every time. Many of the short term or agency workers may well not even know what records they do hold let alone where they are or how to sort through them. Sadly this is a result of government policy to get rid of long serving and experienced civil servants in favour of workers who can be dropped at will rather than going through legalities (its cheaper for one thing ie no redundancy payments, they cannot be in a union so no strikes and till recently less leave allowance and far poorer terms and conditions. There are from personal experience more Agency and short term workers with the attitude of why bother when we may not be here tomorrow than ones who genuinly want to do a good job, i suppose you cant really blame them they are in it for the money however short term that is (personaly i would ban the parasitic Agencies since they are living of other folks misery) but sadly many firms will now only take on workers through an agency.

As you say nothing seems to fit with the CWGC, s answers, also i am still wary about the apparent lack of help from the MOD when it seems obvious someone high up has been speaking to Anthonys local MP and given him information that they deny exists i will repeat this smacks of a cover up to me.

Lets face it mate the government makes all these statements about looking after our warriors but this is in my view crocodile tears and i honestly dont believe they care at all. Lastly it is indeed sad that this state of affairs exists but over centuries it has ever been so.
All you can do is keep pushing in any direction you can think off mate and i wish you the best of luck

Cheers

Dave