Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dcdl12976
So not helpfull at all Jim but thanks for letting us know mate.
Hello Dave,
Blood pressure is returning to normal now! No not very helpful at all,I expected an initial knockback but the reasoning behind it simply blew me away! Anyhow we factored in this type of response thats why everything was copied and sent off to Tonys MP its time to put a little pressure that way I think?
I may be reading too much into this but Tonys mail from the MoD set out the `normal` procedure ie they contact the CWGC who forward their documents to the Casualty people who compile the case as requested. Now we have already contacted the CWGC and they stated they hold no records of their own on Anthony and referred us to the JCCC, The CWGC stated the Dates of Death were supplied by the relevent service authority at the time. I natually assumed that the CWGC held nothing and the MoD had the relevent records ..what if I`ve read this wrong?
Could they(CWGC) mean, bearing in mind the MoD `normal` procedure, that they have records but they hold those that belong to the MoD and thus cannot release them without the MoD approval hence the `Normal` procedure? I`m clutching at straws but is it a possibility?
Meanwhile Newspaper contact is moving rapidly along and we have other courses/paths to travel we will keep chipping away Anthony has waited 73 years I am afraid he may have to wait just a little while longer but we are coming for you son! Your Country may have forgotten but we have not.Chin up Tony onward and upwards mate!
Best
Jim
Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Jim you may be correct but so far as i am aware MOD records remain MOD records and only a copy with as much info as required would have been supplied to anyone else, remember the MOD like any government department will only answer exactly what they were asked and no more i.e. they will not volunteer info over and above the question asked (if they answer at all as you have found). I find the excuse they are short staffed very strange, they are but not to that extent i believe.
A point to bear in mind is that so far as i am aware many MOD records are now held and administered by a private firm, certainly civil servants records so i suspect some military records may also be held thus. Also bear in mind that normaly the MOD will only release service info etc to a direct relation and they may not consider Tony to be so. Dont forget also that some records have a 75 year statute before they can be released, am not suggesting this as a reason but it is worth bearing in mind.
There is of course other possibilities why they will not check and i am beginning to think Ivor and my thoughts on this may be nearer to the truth than we realise (not for the forum of course especially since i work for the MOD in a lowly capacity).
My feelings on this is that the thing stinks, and i would hazard a guess that the 75 year rule is being applied for some reason as yet unknown.
Sorry if that sounds negative but for what its worth it is my feeling and opinion mate.
Cheers
Dave
Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dcdl12976
Jim you may be correct but so far as i am aware MOD records remain MOD records and only a copy with as much info as required would have been supplied to anyone else, remember the MOD like any government department will only answer exactly what they were asked and no more i.e. they will not volunteer info over and above the question asked (if they answer at all as you have found). I find the excuse they are short staffed very strange, they are but not to that extent i believe.
A point to bear in mind is that so far as i am aware many MOD records are now held and administered by a private firm, certainly civil servants records so i suspect some military records may also be held thus. Also bear in mind that normaly the MOD will only release service info etc to a direct relation and they may not consider Tony to be so. Dont forget also that some records have a 75 year statute before they can be released, am not suggesting this as a reason but it is worth bearing in mind.
There is of course other possibilities why they will not check and i am beginning to think Ivor and my thoughts on this may be nearer to the truth than we realise (not for the forum of course especially since i work for the MOD in a lowly capacity).
My feelings on this is that the thing stinks, and i would hazard a guess that the 75 year rule is being applied for some reason as yet unknown.
Sorry if that sounds negative but for what its worth it is my feeling and opinion mate.
Cheers
Dave
Hello Dave,
Something is amiss with this, one question throws up another the deeper you go.Has anyone stopped to ask themselves why such an important battle which basically saw three top infantry regiments decimated has never been covered in detail.The 2 DLI diary,at least,records that the full story of what happened to the rifle companies will not be told until they return from captivity..which to the best of my knowledge never was?
In respect of the MoD`s records remaining their property yes I`d agree with that but they do not always retain the originals when I applied for my uncles records he too was killed with the DLI I received a very apologetic letter with three photocopied sheets and an explaination that my uncles records had been sent on loan to what is now the Veterans agency and were believed subsequently destroyed! I disputed the fact that they would have destroyed them and asked that further enquiries be made into their wearabouts.Two months later I received a second letter again apologising the records had been returned and copies were enclosed in full...what would have happened if I had not pursued them?.....Nothing I suspect.
In respect of the MoDs excuse they state they have only two staff on Historic identifications and these were `busy` with casualties of both Wars who turn up in France the rest assist with Afghanistan...the too hard box springs to mind!
Best Wishes
Jim
Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
I am not sure if you have seen this web site but just in case it may throu some light on anything you are researching I have copied the link for you, if you have already seen it then nothing lost www.webmatters.net/txtpat/index.php?id=272
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Verrieres
Hello Dave
Something is amiss with this, one question throws up another the deeper you go.Has anyone stopped to ask themselves why such an important battle which basically saw three top infantry regiments decimated has never been covered in detail.The 2 DLI diary,at least,records that the full story of what happened to the rifle companies will not be told until they return from captivity..which to the best of my knowledge never was?
In respect of the MoD`s records remaining their property yes I`d agree with that but they do not always retain the originals when I applied for my uncles records he too was killed with the DLI I received a very apologetic letter with three photocopied sheets and an explaination that my uncles records had been sent on loan to what is now the Veterans agency and were believed subsequently destroyed! I disputed the fact that they would have destroyed them and asked that further enquiries be made into their wearabouts.Two months later I received a second letter again apologising the records had been returned and copies were enclosed in full...what would have happened if I had not pursued them?.....Nothing I suspect.
In respect of the MoDs excuse they state they have only two staff on Historic identifications and these were `busy` with casualties of both Wars who turn up in France the rest assist with Afghanistan...the too hard box springs to mind!
Best Wishes
Jim
Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Verrieres
Hello Dave,
Something is amiss with this, one question throws up another the deeper you go.Has anyone stopped to ask themselves why such an important battle which basically saw three top infantry regiments decimated has never been covered in detail.The 2 DLI diary,at least,records that the full story of what happened to the rifle companies will not be told until they return from captivity..which to the best of my knowledge never was?
Jim
I do agree Jim, have you thought that so far as i can find no war diary from the 1st Royal Berks at this time is to be found anywhere ? possibly these were lost/destoyed etc at the time but there may be other reasons as well. its just possible that my father may well hold some clues but at 95 i doubt he may remember (or may not say) there is a point to me saying this but its not for forum view mate. Sorry.
Agreed yo uneed to keep pushing at the MOD and you may eventually get a result. No excuse to say they are tied up wth Afganistan this is NOT a historic war it is indeed still going on as we are all aware,u are i think correct in sayiny "to hard" i would rather say "cant be bothered" cos there is talking and reading papers to do. However maybe i am being a litle hard on a department that is being cut in numbers of staff daily.
Cheers
Dave
Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Thanks bennyball2 we did i think know about this link but it never hurts to be reminded mate.
Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dcdl12976
I do agree Jim, have you thought that so far as i can find no war diary from the 1st Royal Berks at this time is to be found anywhere ? possibly these were lost/destoyed etc at the time but there may be other reasons as well. its just possible that my father may well hold some clues but at 95 i doubt he may remember (or may not say) there is a point to me saying this but its not for forum view mate. Sorry.
Agreed yo uneed to keep pushing at the MOD and you may eventually get a result. No excuse to say they are tied up wth Afganistan this is NOT a historic war it is indeed still going on as we are all aware,u are i think correct in sayiny "to hard" i would rather say "cant be bothered" cos there is talking and reading papers to do. However maybe i am being a litle hard on a department that is being cut in numbers of staff daily.
Cheers
Dave
Hello Dave,
The Royal Berks Diary has always been a mystery to me the 2DLI are reconstituted they are not original so why not reconstitute the Royal Berks? or would that be forgery as the originals still exist ....in the same box as Q80 possibly:winkicon:
Best
Jim
Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Good Morning.
Well guys , you probably now realise that we are into something not quite what we expected. Welcome to St Vennant
In ‘’Ye Olden Days ‘’ a map would have shown the area as ‘’Do Not Enter. There Be DRAGONS Here’.I am very,very reluctant to enter there, as I believe I know who the Dragons are.
You have found that by looking at the War Diaries of the 3 units involved, that they are either wrong, RWF Dates, missing, rewritten. 2DLI or just plain missing. 1RB.
This would not have surfaced otherwise.
There are several known incident of FF.. I believe that the deaths of Lt Garnett of the RWF and 6 others ,Grave markers 23/5/40, RWF WD 24/5/40 . were a result of the advancing RWF coming under fire from a Co of 2/5 WY who had been tasked with the defence of St Floris to hold against the Known German advance into St Vennant. On 23rd.
The account from Mr Cook Snr of the arty fire and the comments of the FOO that they believed that the Gremans held the position, would seem to indicate that British troops were not known to be further west than St Floris.which appears to have been the British Holding Position.
So why were they there ?
Another very strange thing occurs to Mr Cook Snr. On his return to UK he is Hospitalised and he arranges to speak to the parents of his friend who was killed in the FF incident. When he is released from Hospital he is not posted back to his regiment, he is posted, without any prior notification, for Parachute training to become an Air Gunner. I am not sure if you are aware but the life expectancy of an AG was measured in Days/weeks not months. Very Odd. But fortunately he survived and he has my total respect.
I might be a cynical old sod but it might seem that Mr Cook may have been deliberately put in Harms Way.
With regard to the reasons why British troop were in St Vennant. When it was known that the German’s were there on 23rd and the British were holding at St Floris.I will not comment. I have my own opinion regarding this but that is how it will stay.
In conclusion I will just say that yes I believe that there is something very odd here and I do not believe that we are going to get any further with this, unless we are able to find someone outside this forum with a Lot of Seniority and Authority..
Ivor
Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
Thanks to Ivor for his post, i am of the opinion that i have to be pretty carefull what i say on the open forum still working for the MOD and all. One point mate if dads memory is right and the incident took place on the 24th then since he said he was very close to the footbridge to Haversque then the Royal Berks were even further out of the area they should have been in than we thought.
Perhaps a reminder of Dads mate,s Mother and Father might be in order here his Father being an ex Brigadier and officially a "Gentleman" and the family lived in Warwick where Dad was in hospital.
At some time i seem to remember Dad telling me that after his parachute training he was sent to a "Large house in the country" cant remember which county though for further training. As well as being a mid upper gunner on Sunderlands he was gunner in Bolton and Paul Defiants and flew in and out of Malta several times (quite what he was up to i may never know). i do know that at some point he was wounded in the wrist and still has a fixed wrist to this day. One thing i vividly remember when i was very young was a gang of younsters giving him grief and if i remember right he put several down in short time.
His medals are Africa Star with 1st Army clasp, 1939/45 Star Italy star And Atlantic star plus the usual 2 others so that gives us a clue that what he says is fairly accurate. One thing eludes me though what was a soldier doing as mid upper gunner on Sunderlands over the Atlantic.
I have long thought it strange that this battle has so little info on the net or elsewhere not to mention the various anomolies in the War Diaries including the s missing one, by the way i never did have a reply from the Wardrobe to my question about the diary and the battle.
Anyway enough for now this isnt helping to find Anthony.
Cheers
Dave
Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet
hi.
Dave, i agree with your being careful. but you may have found one of the Dragons. I believe another was a sometime High Sheriff of an Irish County.
Thanks again to your Dad.
Now, as to this not helping to find Anthony, well, maybe,you are aware that i still believe that Anthony will be found at Calonne. But if i am wrong and Anthony is in St Vennant, then we will have to come up with something very dramatic in order to blow this whole thing open. But if possible, we have to beware that we do not open a very,very large can of worms in doing so.
ivor
