saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

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17-07-2012, 21:58
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

I would rather keep an open mind on the Despatch Rider aspect as he could have been with either company when he was wounded but I take your point rgarding sticking to facts. Which brings me to the piece about RSM Goddard making him comfortable on the canal bank there is some discrepencie in the RSMs letter to the Red Cross and the one sent to the family..the sentence `I heard your son calling me from the canal bank`is featured in one, is this as the RSM was being marched away? the Germans were certainly present at the time,they had to be for the RSM to ask them if they could take Anthony with them?
The hospital was not a German hospital if was a British hospital which was set up to receive the first wounded

Quote:

As the tanks arrived the sense of panic amongst the Tommies was heightened and they ran along the road leading from the Canal de la Lys; there was renewed carnage.The British set up a hospital in Madame Boulet’s house. This was situated at the crossroads on the Hurtevent and Bas Hamel roads. (Looking at Google its still there)The first casualties were taken there; before long about twenty sick and wounded were cared for in this house.

I know its all down to the detail but as Ivor pointed out if we can find the answer and Tony goes to the authorities with his findings then he has to be able to show all avenues have been covered .He needs the answers because if we know this you can bet your life the authorities will know more.An example is for whatever reason Anthony was known to be dead by the 29th May 1940 despite any Red Cross Enquiry/letter some two to three years later,he was struck off strength on the 29th May 1940.(Fact) He never featured in the extensive search for `2DLI` missing men he was simply listed as `DEAD`...how were they so sure?

Best Wishes

Jim
17-07-2012, 22:25
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

The drawing no doubt represents the narrow bridge over the lock gates, as shown (from another direction) in the photo. The lock keeper's house is still there. RWF memorial to the right.

Past the lock the road continued across the lock island to Haverskerque. To the left was the large Pigeau bridge, now replaced by the modern road bridge of the D818 which crosses the Lys between the lock and the cemetery. It looks like the Pigeau bridge was the point from where the little bridge in tyhe drawing was depicted.

The Boulet house, like the Boulet farm, was in the area in which D coy 2 DLI had been cut off by German troops (6th Coy, 3 Inf Regt, I believe) which had infiltrated to the canal on the western side of Saint-Venant. No way RSM Goddard could have seen Anthony there.

John

Attachment 2852
17-07-2012, 23:57
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Hi all.
Brilliant stuff Bob, but I suspect that the painting shows the locks at the head of the Aire canal. Which starts close to the bridge at St Venant. I believe this is too narrow for the Lys.
If my memory serves me correctly and i will check as soon as i can but i seem to recall the Aire, then what may have been an island then the Lys.
as i am working through my mobile phone i do not have full access.But is someone could check this for me i would appreciate
it.
john. when you said earlier that there were 2 bridges a metal one and a wooden one did you mean the metal one was over the Aire and the wooden one over the Lys.the main Rd passing over both.

ivor
18-07-2012, 00:05
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

The wooden bridge was over the Lys, Ivor. The metal one was over the Aire canal at l'Epinette, 4 km from St Venant. The Aire canal is much wider and sadly lacks a cemetery, which complicates your identification. There also was no RWF crossing of the Aire canal under fire. B Coy came closest to the canal, but never reached it.

You are correct where the little island is concerned. On the southern side is the Lys canal and the lock, on the northern side the old bed of the Lys, wider and with a weir. My photo looks at the island and the lock keeper´s house from the south. Check Google Street View when you're back behind your computer, and you'll see what I mean.

John
18-07-2012, 13:50
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Morning all
Another grey, wet and windy day in West Wales. Have been back from Malta 2 weeks and I think we need a short holiday. Caravans are fine if you have good weather. Am thinking of 3or 4 days in northern France visiting Dunkirk and some other interesting places not far away, hmm I wonder where. but I will have to persuade ‘her indoors’. watch this space.
The last few days I have been reflecting on what we have achieved, sadly not very much. Tony has not got much further with his quest.
However from the outset I knew this would be very difficult, not only from stories about what my father went through, but also from books that I read as a youth eg ‘Scourge of the Swastika’ ,’a judgement at Nuremburg’ and many other personal accounts, from authors like Leonard Cheshire. VC. And Richard Hillary.( The Last Enemy).so I was fully aware what I was getting into.
But, despite our apparent lack of progress I have been amazed at the amount of info that we have uncovered. But I am, in a way, somewhat uneasy about some of it. Apart from the Diary of Major Townsend and the RWF Diary. Every thing else seems to have been written some time later, so, to me at least, raises some doubt as to accuracy and completeness.
I have a few more ideas to try and progress this, ok not more tank tracks. But I’m not quite ready to concede the east yet there is still some digging to do there and i..will.. get the answers.

The truth is out there somewhere.

ivor
18-07-2012, 18:25
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Don't be too optimistic about the RWF WD, Ivor. The only survivors of the Bn to reach Dunkirk and write in the WD were two 2nd Lts, the QM and eighty other ranks. None of them with a good idea of what happened, none of them experienced in writing a WD. i expect the situation for the Durhams was much the same.

John
18-07-2012, 21:32
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Later this week I hope to have the account of the campaign written by the captured RWF officers (while still PoWs). That should answer a lot of questions.

John
19-07-2012, 02:34
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Good morning all.
First I have to apologise. My identification of the canal as the Aire was wrong the Aire is a much wider canal and much further west. Sorry.
Would I be right in thinking that the artist is on the island looking east and the tanks are approaching from the St Floris direction. and are just passing the cemetery. Interesting.

Guy’s if I had’nt been out with friends for a meal, Beef Madras Curry and a couple of large glasses of a quite reasonable ,for UK, red wine I think I might be banging my head against a suitable wall.
Will someone please tell me what we can trust. virtually everything we have here has been written some time later. days, months, while a P.O.W. or maybe even years later. The only thing that seems to be a fairly on the spot account is the diary of Major Townsend
Having been a Police Officer, I know when you have been dealing with an ugly situation, if you do not write it up straight away, once the adrenalin rush is gone it is very easy to omit details. The guy’s in this situation would have been so intent in getting away that they may not even have been aware of who or what was going on about them, this was ever man for himself. So any account written days later has to be suspect.
So where do we go from here. John your reports from the P.O.W’s may give a clue, I don’t know. But I think we will have to start some ‘ Lateral Thinking’.
The German Military History site I linked the other day is no longer active. So do we have any other possible avenues to that side.
The only other thing that I know of that occurred at the time that seems to be unexplained is what did Col Harrison ,if it is our Colonel. Do to merit having a Road named after him.
I know I have raised this before but I can find nothing on the web. But I think we need to try to find something, anything, outside the records that could point us in the right direction.

It’s thinking time

ivor
19-07-2012, 12:42
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Ivor, you have discovered the essence of writing history. It's not unlike your old profession (or mine). Weight of evidence is what matters. But please bear in mind that a very late source written by a competent researcher is always more reliable than an early (even eyewitness) source by someone unable to grasp the larger picture or deliberately trying to mislead or just plain stupid. And that is why historians are needed to sift and weigh the evidence.

Your German mil hist site was a site run by American admirers of the SS who could not tell the difference between tanks and carriers. Their historical summaries were mainly based on publications by former SS members and their fan club, not an entirely reliable source I should think. I have yet to see the first post-war interview with a former SS man in which the shooting of PoWs was admitted. "Ït coudn't have happened in my unit, we were all gentlemen" was the usual reply. See the German interviews in the St Venant War Crimes investigation.

As you so rightly ask, where do we go from here? I can only reiterate what I have said before. As the Ferme Boulet area had been cut off from the main position by two separate German columns which had reached the canal W of St Venant, any reference to the Boulet family properties can be discounted as not relevant to our inquiry. Where we should look is the area of the last stand of the DLI along the canal between the Taverne house at the junction of Rue des Amusoires and the canal dyke on the E side and the cemetery on the W side. That is where the RSM was, that is were he last saw Pte Corkhill and made him comfortable. Anything else only confuses the issue.

We should look for a 1942 description of the field graves in that area. There is one (in our possession) for the Rue d'Aire - Bas-Hamel area, there is probably also one in existence for the canal bank E of St Venant - if only we could find it. That should provide the necessary clues.

John
19-07-2012, 13:55
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by vori101

Would I be right in thinking that the artist is on the island looking east and the tanks are approaching from the St Floris direction. and are just passing the cemetery.
ivor

You would be approximately right, Ivor. The viewpoint is rather high, which makes me think that the artist was standing on the wooden Pigeau bridge instead of on the bank of the island.

Here again we have a nice example of the pitfalls that endanger the path of us historians. The artist must have seen the quays of the lock from where he was standing, but did not draw them. What he did draw was the cemetery, with the tanks approaching from the Rue des Amusoires - canal dyke junction, but the cemetery looks a lot closer to the bridge than it actually was. Fortunately the location can be pinpointed witht he aid of the lock keeper's house, which hasn't changed a bit in the past 72 years.

John
19-07-2012, 14:42
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

john.
i thought the Mil Hist site was odd, but at the moment we have to explore all options regardless.
With regard to the picture i thought the lack of quays was odd.
But i wonder, perhaps we are misjudging him.the traffic on the canal was probably a lot smaller than the barges of today, maybe more like the working boats that we had on ours,somewhat wider than the our modern Narrow Boats. and what we see today is a post war widening and lengthening of the lock to accommodate the modern barges.Were the quays in 1940 further west, behind the artist?
shortly i am going to post the first of 2 'lateral thinking' efforts they may be useful.

ivor
19-07-2012, 14:47
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by vori101

Were the quays in 1940 further west, behind the artist?

ivor

They weren't, Ivor. It just shows you how selective memory can be. The lock itself was of no importance, but the canal was, and that is what the artist remembered.

John
19-07-2012, 15:23
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

john
my ext post will explain this

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/8...see1940ny5.gif

Source: Motorized Reconnaissance Detachment in Combat in Flanders. By Wim Brandt (SS AA VT CO). Militar Wochenblatt.

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19-07-2012, 15:28
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Bon Jour mon amis.
For the purpose of these next two post I am going to take the account of Major Townsend as the basis and see where it leads us.

Let us back off from St Venant and see the bigger picture.
From the above map we see a large German force, which john identified in a previous post. To the west of Robecq, Haveskirque and the forest. But what is to the south and east ? and what do the curved parallel line over the Lys east of St Venant signify,
 We know, with certainty, that the German’s had an aid post at a School in Calonne. We also know that 2 British soldiers died here, were originally buried in the field at the rear.2 years later were reburied in the cemetery
****This proves without doubt that the German’s were picking up and treating British wounded. It seems reasonable to assume that there could have been other’s that recovered and became P.O.W’S. so why was’nt Anthony picked up by the stretcher bearers when RSM Goddard told them where he was. Or Was He.
The situation is not helped by the fact that Anthony did not have his ‘Dog Tags’.
There now seems to me 2 options :-
Option 1 we already know.
Option 2 RSM Goddard. Who was seen directing traffic across a bridge by Major Townsend, thought his wounds were not serious. What if he was wrong about the neck wound. And I am sorry john but at this stage there has to be some what if’s.
Without seeing an autopsy report as to the nature of these wounds, were the wounds Flesh wounds, I am not too concerned about the leg wounds, but the neck wound is more worrying. I had some training with the police regarding bullet wounds and obviously first aid and I am also aware of what happens to its path if a bullet hits bone. Now, john, here you have a much greater knowledge and experience. Could the neck wound have been causing internal bleeding, If so then at some point Anthony would have become unconscious. With no ‘Dog Tags ‘ and unable to speak he would be an unknown. If the German’s were unable to save him then he becomes one of our unknowns ****in Calonne Sur la Lys Cemetery.
This assumes that the action occurred to the east of St Floris.
Let us now pose the same questions from the St Venant position.
I am going to assume that the German units at this position were from a different part of 3Panzer, than those to the east.
If so, would these units have their own aid post. It would, to me, seem likely as they are quite some distance from Calonne. John you have looked at this part of the action in some detail, have you come across any reference to one. I think we can disregard the British one.
The argument from **** to **** is the same. But unless we can find an aid post in this western area then we have no idea if he could be in this area

ivor
19-07-2012, 15:38
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Good points, Ivor.

The neck wound, if the bullet or shell fragment had hit the jugular vein or the carotid artery, would very likely have been lethal in a matter of minutes. Bleeding from those wounds is profuse.

So let's sum up.

If Anthony died on the canal bank, from his wounds or because he was murdered, we should look for him among the field graves in the area.

If Anthony was taken to a 3 Pz Div Aid Post, and died there for whatever reason, we should look for him somewhat more to the south, in the Aire Canal area where one would presume the 3 Pz Div / 3 Inf Regt Aid Post to have been. It's certainly possible. His lack of identification would have thrown a spanner in the works of the German Aid Post administration.

The Volksbund (the German War Graves Commission) are already checking their archives at my request. We'll see what comes up. I shall also ask my friend in the Bundeswehr Museum again. He might be able to inform us of 3 Pz Aid Posts.

Job for the weekend.

John
19-07-2012, 22:38
teecee1941

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

John/Ivor,
Thank you both once again for your latest posts which, as always, I have read with great interest. Regarding Anthony's plight lying wounded on the canal bank, I read once again RSM Goddards two reports. There is a difference between the one he wrote to the family and the one to the Red Cross but the difference is miniscule. I would think that the one he wrote to the Red Cross contained basic facts only but perhaps as he was writing the second one, (to my grandfather) he was conscious that it was going to be read by a family and this shows in the statement that he became 'very attached to Anthony, he was a first class lad'.

To the Red Cross he wrote that he was wounded in the neck and legs and that the Germans 'ordered us to make him comfortable on the canal bank, near the village and stated that he would very soon be picked up by their field ambulance'. 'At the time Pte Corkhill was conscious and could speak and the situation in that area was quiet'. He made no mention of the severity of Anthony's wounds but it is apparent that they were severe enough to prevent him from walking.

In the letter to my grandfather he states that he found that Anthony had a flesh wound to the neck and wounds to both legs. He was conscious and spoke to me quite rationally. We certainly formed the opinion that his wounds were not fatal.

Whatever happened next, we'll probably never know but at some time after that he was declared dead. The CWGC say that he died on the 29th May. The DLI say the same and he was discharged on that day. I have emailed the CWGC to ask how they arrived at that date. Perhaps I should also ask WHEN they arrived at that date. Did the DLI inform the CWGC or vice versa. It is likely that Anthony was seen to be killed and the information was passed on to someone in authority soon afterwards. Even allowing for Anthony's lack of dog tags, he would have been known well enough for a comrade to report his death after visual identification

My thinking at the moment, until any fresh evidence appears, is that the picture, although lacking in artistic merit and slightly inaccurately scaled, is a valuable piece of information. My guess is that it all took place around the bridge and Anthony was perhaps wounded in the dash to get to the safer side. If he was wounded when actually crossing the bridge then his injuries would have prevented him from getting very far. When RSM Goddard said he was on the canal bank 'near the village', how near to the village was he or how far from the bridge was the village?

Tony
19-07-2012, 23:16
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Tony, re your last point: the bridge was just north of the village. See Google maps.

I doubt that Anthony ever made it that far. The RWF passed the retreat order to the DLI but the latter found it impossible to pull back due to the volume of fire and the presence of German tanks outside HQ (or what was left of it). Somewhere between the Taverne house and the cemetery would be the most likely spot in my opinion.

As for the date as reported by DLI and CWGC: have you requested your uncle's service record? That might give some useful information on how the date of 29th May was obtained. If you haven't, here's how:

All service papers for soldiers who served after 1920 are held at the Army Personnel Centre, Historic Disclosures, Mailpoint 400, Kentigern House, 65 Brown Street, Glasgow G2 8EX. A fee is charged (£30) for each search, even if no material is discovered. A special form has to be completed prior to the search. It is essential that you quote the Regiment and personal number of the soldier concerned. There is a long backlog of enquiries at present so it may take some weeks to receive a reply. To download an application (SAR) form - visit www.veterans-uk.info and click on 'Service Records'. I can also email the forms to you.

I have passed the latest theory, about the German Aid Post, to my contacts in the Volksbund and the Bundeswehr Museum. It may help them to locate records pertinent to the case.

John
20-07-2012, 00:07
teecee1941

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

John,

Just to refresh my memory, the Taverne house is at the junction of Rue des Amusoires and the towpath, next door to the cemetery?

thanks,

Tony
20-07-2012, 00:14
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Correct, Tony.

John
20-07-2012, 00:22
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Ok. Part 2.
Bridges.

Right. again based on the extracts from Major Townsend.

First, question- are there 2 bridges ?
What do we know of the bridge at St Venant.
Of wooden construction spanning both the canal and the old river bed. which is the main Haveskirque Rd
So why would the Major record Col Harrison as’ crossing a field in the direction of Haveskirque’ when he could just go up the road ?
The report of the position coming under fire from both sides.
After leaving the Locks the canal bends toward the north for awhile then runs straight. So if the Germans set up a M/G post on the bank they could easily bring the locks under fire and if armor was approaching from the cemetery direction then yes they would be under fire from both directions. ?? sides??

A report of a tank heading north towards the Headroad to Haveskirque.
If a tank crossed the St Venant bridge it would be on the Haveskirque Rd.
If the St Venant Bridge was blown and RWF were having to swim the river.
then how did the tank cross it?

Now for the ‘Second Bridge’

What do we know about it ?
Well…errr. .hmmmm ok. Errrr Nothing.
Where was it ?
You mean exactly ..well hmmm dont know. But it did exist. The Major was at this bridge. He saw the Col crossing the field towards Haveskrque.
He himself crossed this bridge being wounded in the process. He witnessed RSM Goddard directing traffic across this bridge.
The troops at this bridge came under fire from both sides.
There are German troops approaching from south and east. There is a Bren unit on the north bank. presumably putting down covering fire for the British troops trying to get over the bridge. so they are under fire from both sides.
This bridge was not blown because the engineers had gone.
A tank crossed this bridge taking out the Bren post then proceeding towards the north where it was taken out.
RSM Goddard with others were captured at this bridge. And probably marched off to captivity along the canal bank where he sees Anthony.
All this took place on 27^th.There is nothing then until 29^th when the wounded soldier is shot. Presumably whilst bodies are being cleared from the area.
A stop order is issued by German High Command, for how long ? This would give the German units time to re group etc ready for the attack on Merville.
There is evidence that ‘Armored Columns crossed this bridge then turned east to attack Merville’ those defenders that could fell back to the forest. a German account states that it was very difficult to dislodge the troops from the forest and the reason the British fell back was from fear of being encircled presumably by this force and the force to the west.

Now, do we have any idea where this bridge is. I now think there is a possible answer.
If you look at the map I posted earlier you will see a detailed disposition of troops to the west.
There are other parallel lines to the south going north, more lines skirting Bethune and a set of lines Curving roughly S.E/N. crossing the Lys. Now this is a German Map showing German Troop Positions, drawn up by an S.S.Officer Could this be where I have placed the bridge and tank tracks.
Or am I misreading this and the parallel lines are actually the positions of BEF/French units. Although the German troops seem much further north than I would have expected.But why would it show a defensive line on both sides of the canal.

Ivor
20-07-2012, 01:09
Baconwallah

1 Attachment(s)

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

The double lines on your map, Ivor, are Allied positions. And do not forget that the map summarises the advance of only one unit (the others have not been drawn) over a period of some five days. Very little to go on.

Bridges: there were a narrow old bridge from St Venant across the Lys canal, part of the old Route Nationale, and a big wooden one just to the left of it built in early 1949 by French engineers. The latter may have afforded more direct access to the Haverskerque road, after all it was 160 yards long and probably cut off some corners, but the old Route Nationale actually turned E once across the Lys and then executed an almost 90 degree turn to the left to connect to the Haverskerque road. I can understand that, having crossed the bridge, the Colonel would not have taken the road itself but would have attempted to take a short cut across the field. Be that as it may, the big bridge should have been blown but was not.

Goddard: how do you know he was captured at the bridge? It is not documented anywhere.

Under fire from both sides: to the East there were the tanks along the tow path, no doubt accompanied by infantry. To the the West, as you already remarked, the Lys bends to the North until it returns to its westerly course past Haverskerque. A second German column had reached the Lys there and could therefore fire on the bridges along the tow path from the NW. See the map.

Hitler's stop order was dated 24th May. It was rescinded with effect from 27th May.

Have I forgotten anything?

And so to bed.

John

Attachment 2853
21-07-2012, 00:28
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Howdy Folks.

Right I am going to surrender the east. For now. But I retain the right to return to it at any time if or when I get answers to three questions.
1) If Col Harrison was heading for Haveskirque why has he seemingly become a hero in a village several miles to the east.

2) Why did the Major state that a Lt and 60 men ( I think it was) were heading for the Forest. How would he know they were heading for the forest which is to the north of Haveskirque. If going from St Venant.

3) Where did the assault force that attacked Merville cross the Lys before it turned east.

We now have to find an aid post either S or W of St Venant As the Germans said there was a field ambulance operating in the area I doubt it was very far from it’s base.

ivor
21-07-2012, 14:09
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Here we go, Ivor:

1 - The Rue du Col Harrison is within the Commune de Haverskerque, not in another village. The distance from Haverskerque village centre is less than a mile, not several miles.

2 - Question not understood.

2 - 6th Bde HQ having relocated to le Touquet and its bns posted from St Venant to Bas-Hamel, Calonne was defended only by a coy of French pioneers and ten British stragglers and the fight lasted less than an hour. The only defence of Merville consisted of 6th KORR supported by an MG section and a few field guns. The Germans simply took the main road through Calonne until they were held at the Merville bridge by 6 KORR.

John
23-07-2012, 06:17
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Hi all.
No I haven’t gone AWOL, we have just been very busy. have eaten out with friends 4 times in the last 5 days.
John. I did not think that you could answer my questions, you seem to be arguing from what is already written eg. The Red Dragon. The answers are not there, neither are they in 2DLI records.
We have to go outside these records, which we know are suspect
My apparent obsession with ‘’La Rue Du Colonel Harrison’’ is really quite simple.
In order for this to happen a motion would have to be put before the local Council. Stating Why it was felt that in view of the actions of the Col this was an appropriate memorial. This would probably be debated and then entered in the minutes of the meeting. If this could be found it would be an independent and authoritive piece of evidence.
The location of the death of Col Harrison is possibly open to question, having read of his Custeresque death in a heroic last stand at the bridge, I find it somewhat bemusing. You, some pages ago, expressed an opinion of the colonel in less than flattering terms. When it appeared from Major Townsend’s dairy that he was seen heading north from the bridge.
So where was he?
The Red Dragon account is similar to stuff I have read before, where senior officer who have through incompetence, poor decisions etc lost their forces they have been written up as having a heroic death, defending some strategic point. The writers never expect their accounts to be challenged and in most cases they are not.
But in this case everything is open to challenge.
We Will succeed.

ivor
23-07-2012, 09:17
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Morning Ivor,

You refer to my description of Col Harrison as 'less than flattering' which I think misinterprets my opinion. He did the best he could under impossible circumstances, and was not permitted to withdraw until it was much too late and most of his battalion had been wiped out. It's hard to see what else he could have done.

As for the requested minutes of the deliberations of the council of Haverskerque: feel free to ask for them at contact-mairie-haverskerque@wanadoo.fr.

My French friend tells me that so far he has drawn only blanks.

John
23-07-2012, 09:49
ap1

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by vori101


The Red Dragon account is similar to stuff I have read before, where senior officer who have through incompetence, poor decisions etc lost their forces they have been written up as having a heroic death, defending some strategic point. The writers never expect their accounts to be challenged and in most cases they are not.
But in this case everything is open to challenge.
We Will succeed.

ivor

Please exercise a degree of restraint in your comments Ivor. His family would not feel his death was "Custeresque".

Thanks
23-07-2012, 21:49
teecee1941

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hi John,

Sorry I'm a bit late with this reply. At the moment I have not applied for Anthony's service record. I have written to the CWGC and will wait until I have a reply. I expect this will take a week or two.

Tony
23-07-2012, 21:52
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Thanks for the info, Tony. The CWGC reply may need interpretation (or additional questions) so please keep me posted.

John
24-07-2012, 00:20
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Ap1.
I am somewhat bemused by your response to my post. i do not understand how a reference to George Armstrong Custer could be offensive.
But then again I suppose it depends on whose account you read and chose to believe. History of the Native American people has been somewhat of a passion of mine for a number of years and I have a fairly extensive collection of works on these people.
You can not study them without coming across the 3 major battles. Sand Creek (Soldier Blue) Wounded Knee where a Gatling Gun was used against unarmed Natives.
And of course The Little Big Horn.
Now. Colonel George Armstrong Custer. Last in his year at West Point. Served with some distinction In The Civil War (1861-66) made a very advantageous Political Marriage which did not make him popular with his fellow officers, as his wife had the ear of many senior officers.
I think, from what I have read, that he was a good officer, maybe not brilliant, liked by those under his command. who had had success in previous campaigns against the Natives.
I believe this success led to his ultimate defeat. He totally misunderstood his enemy, this time, a very large gathering of Sioux. and he made a serious tactical error, he split his command.
After the defeat he was blamed entirely by his detractors until his wife used her political contacts to create the story of the Heroic Last Stand. I believe Truth and facts became another casualty of this war.
I am,at the moment, reading Prof Saul David’s Book. ZULU. The Heroism and Tragedy of the Zulu War of 1879.

Believe me his comments regarding the abilities etc of the Senior Officers is much more scathing than anything I could have written. But the official records of this action also seem to leave Truth and Fact as a casualty.
Now for Colonel Harrison. I DO NOT believe he underestimated his enemy, in fact I am convinced that he was fully aware that he was out gunned, short of men, and what he had were tired. And his only intention was to get his men out of a position that was rapidly becoming untenable.
I believe the only Tac error here was from the top. The decision to send this unit into a breach to face a much the much superior 3 Panzer.
But let me quote from my first paragraph ‘’But then again I suppose it depends on whose account you read and chose to believe ‘’
If you wish to believe The Red Dragon Account so be it. But in reading the account from the Diary of Major Townsend then that appears to indicate something different. As i said, I was using the Diary as a basis for discussion purposes. And i will do so until I have evidence it is wrong.
In using Custeresque I was referring to the manner in which it was written up long after the fact. And seemingly ignoring the possibility of an alternative, as suggested by the Diary of Major Townsend, As were the accounts of Mrs Custer. Not to his actual death.
Be assured I have no intention of Besmirching the memory of Colonel Harrison He has my Full Respect. But in what we are doing we have to re-examine everything in order to establish the truth and location of the remains of Pte Corkhill. And I would hope that the Harrison family will understand this.

ivor
24-07-2012, 00:55
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Ivor, you have now lost me completely. Has anyone ever suggested that Col Harrison underestimated the enemy? All reports indicate that he knew exactly what he was up against.

As for 1 RWF being where it was, that was simply because there was nothing else. The task of 6 Bde was to delay the enemy long enough to make the evacuation of the BEF possible. They did that, they did that well, and paid the inevitable price. That a stand behind the Lys canal would have been better than one in front of it, that is another matter, and probably the result of faulty information at Bde HQ. It was certainly not Col Harrison's choice.

I also still fail to understand why Capt Townsend's diary would indicate a stand anywhere but at the St Venant bridge, and why it is in your opinion the only reliable account while the Red Dragon account, the 1954 YDG account and the written reports of the officers captured at St Venant are all part of a grand conspiracy to hide "the truth", whatever that may be.

John
24-07-2012, 12:49
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 John,
My friend I am sorry if have confused you. My last message was mainly aimed at ap1 who thought that my ref to Custers last stand may have been taken as offensive I was only trying to clarify my thinking for him.
I made ref to 2 battles, the 7^th Cavalry at Little Big Horn and the British troops at, and I should have been more specific, Isandlwana. These defeats were caused by the senior officers having a misplaced belief in their superiority and totally underestimating their enemy.
My ref to Col Harrison was to ensure that in no way was I suggesting that he made a similar mistake.
Now a couple of posts ago I said I was giving up my position at the east, for now. And that for discussion purposes I was using the words of Major Townsend. I assume you are aware of the duties of ‘’ a Devils Advocate’’ within the Catholic Church.
I am now arguing purely on the words of the Major. As if he was at the St Venant Bridge.
I thought that we were broadly in agreement that what has been written was possibly suspect. Therefore when the Major states he saw Col Harrison crossing fields to the north, towards Haverskirque and the Red Dragon places him quite firmly south of the bridge till virtually the last possible minute I have a great deal of difficulty reconciling the two accounts.
The Major states that he was wounded in the face while crossing the bridge and a Welsh soldier put a dressing on it. Where? If this was at the British Aid post would he not have mentioned it and would he not have had to wait while more serious wounds were treated. My impression is that this was done quickly ‘on the spot’
The Red Dragon account says that several tanks crossed the bridge. The Major specifically states that a tank went onto the bridge, took out the M/G post and then went North and was taken out by an 18lb’er.Now I am quite convinced that he would know it was an 18lb’er from the sound of the discharge. The same as, even, i know the difference between the sounds of an LMG and a HMG.
Can we equate these two accounts? There does not seem to be any obvious connection. Unless we consider the possibility of a second crossing to the east.
John when entering into a debate, arguments both for and against the topic are given and those listening form opinions. in this debate you are pro the Red Dragon, regimental account. I am trying to rebut your arguments by using the words of the Major, I have never said that the Major is right, I dont know that, but neither do I know that the Red Dragon is right. This is what we have to establish, we can not just dismiss the Major because it is inconvenient.
And finally john, I do love a good conspiracy theory but I am sorry this is not one. I do however know something about the concept of truth and I can assure you it is not always exactly what it seems. it depends to a great extent where you are viewing it from.

ivor
24-07-2012, 15:23
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Anthony Corkhill

Excuse the underlining of the title but I am going to pop in and try and steer you back towards Anthony whenever it looks likely that this is going off on a tangent.Although everything stated is relevant to the action are we any closer to finding Anthony?..No.....Farm Boulet was the only link to Soldier 6...If Farm Boulet is discounted and we are satisfied that there were no other `Boulet` residencies lets move on.
With no other obvious links regarding any of the other atrocities in the area do we now concentrate on the possibility that Anthony died possibly two days later in hospital be that a field Hospital or a General Hospital?
If we do take this direction,I am assuming,that as an unknown or not his death will have been recorded and documented ? Dental records ? I would assume the dental records would have been recorded on a body either in a Hospital or if we choose to go there,on those `inconnu` exhumed in 1941-42 ie pathologist reports?
When these bodies were exhumed/buried France was still occupied so there would have been no chance to compare any medical records.I have case notes from a `Searcher Party` file (location of missing soldiers graves) from 1943 for the area of Sicily,one body discovered in an unmarked grave was believed to be a 9th DLI soldier called Evans (This was the last area he had been seen alive) A three page report detailing clothing,position ,personal effects and more importantly his dental records were listed.Subsequent enquiries were made and a reply from The Infantry Records in York disproved that this was Evans because their records showed that teeth present on the body were recorded as already extracted on his enlistment .Evans remains `unknown`..but at least it goes to show that somewhere these dental records were recorded. Army records are available,I have my uncles,but there are no medical records amongst them presumably these would have been kept for pension applications?
I really am clutching at reality here I`m so much out of my comfort zone.
The autopsy reports from the bodies around St Venant exist (Fact Thats how Tom Rodgers was found) M.Faivre is believed to hold them but he is tied up with another project. The locations of the unknowns are also ,presumably , known by the CWGC have we established how many unknowns there are in the area I believe there are up to forty in St Venant alone. This may seem a labourious effort but some of those unknowns will be discounted because of rank,Tattoos,Regimental insignia (Hair colour ,height if the reports can be accessed!) Would this be an avenue Tony could explore or have I missed something glaringly obvious.(Which to be honest I probably have!!)

Best
Jim
24-07-2012, 19:57
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Jim. you are quite right.

The present situation is summarised in my post #175 below.

What we need: info on field graves on the bank of the Lys canal E of the bridge and info on deaths in German Aid Posts or Clearing Stations from 27th to 29th May.

I have set the German War Graves people to work on the latter. For the former we depend on local information which is not in the Mairie but seemingly only in the possession of M Faivre. And that will be a problem, as he has stated to my friend that he has done all he can and can do no more.

Unless the CWGC can produce a list of field graves, or can be persuaded to explain why they decided on the death date of 29th May, we have nothing to go on. Remember that comparing dental records is all very fine, but you need something to compare them to.

John
24-07-2012, 21:50
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Hello John,
The dental records suggestion would have been a direct comparrison between those on the autopsy reports and (if they still survive) the servicemans records but I am aware on the likelyhood of gaining access to them.
I have in the past contacted the CWGC on several occasions the last in relation to an unknown DLI Sgt and although they could tell me nothing to help with his identification they did supply the map co-ordinates of the original field grave,So they do hold this in their records.
As a start I have enquired if there are amongst the unknowns in St Venant and Merville (Four known DLI lie here believed died of wounds)any soldiers whose personal identities are unknown but who are known to be from the DLI (Signified by the DLI cap badge on an `Unknown`Headstone.
The hospital route via the German war graves is promising but would their records (or at least copies of them) not now be in the Hands of the CWGC?
I am aware of that mix up at the German field Hospital (Schoolhouse in Calonne) which resulted in the removal of ID Tags from Five British soldiers resulting in them being buried as `unknowns` I am summising that they had the tags but it was not known which body they had originated?
Whilst on the subject of Tags I am aware that Tony believes Anthony may have left his at home...is this not a disiplinary offence? I am not an expert on this but I find it hard to believe these would not have been replaced by May 1940 remember 2 DLI were first of the DLI battalions in France in 1939? Just thinking out aloud but ...no I`ll save it

Best

Jim
24-07-2012, 22:21
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Jim,

The dental records of wor Tony will be the least of our problems. Getting the exhumation reports from M Faivre will be much more difficult and probably impossible as my friend tells me he refuses to co-operate any further.

I'm not sure the CWGC would have field grave information for the area. The French cleared the field graves in 1942 which meant that in 1945 the CWGC could take over a nicely prepared plot in the communal cemetery. They may have received the paperwork to go with it, but on the other hand they may not. Only the CWGC can answer this.

In view of the strange confirmation of date of death during the war I think that the CWGC and the service record may hold the key to all this. How did the Army know that he was dead, when there was a war on? German report through Switzerland? If so, what did it say?

John
24-07-2012, 23:56
Verrieres

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baconwallah

Jim,

The dental records of wor Tony will be the least of our problems. Getting the exhumation reports from M Faivre will be much more difficult and probably impossible as my friend tells me he refuses to co-operate any further.

I'm not sure the CWGC would have field grave information for the area. The French cleared the field graves in 1942 which meant that in 1945 the CWGC could take over a nicely prepared plot in the communal cemetery. They may have received the paperwork to go with it, but on the other hand they may not. Only the CWGC can answer this.

In view of the strange confirmation of date of death during the war I think that the CWGC and the service record may hold the key to all this. How did the Army know that he was dead, when there was a war on? German report through Switzerland? If so, what did it say?

John

Hello John,
How strange that M Faivre does not want to help I know he is busy at present but its not as if he has been pestered Tony only made one approach to him and he request a photograph and as much detail as possible...then nothing.Very strange.
In relation to the Field graves information as mentioned my last enquiry was in relation to a DLI Sgt also 2nd Battalion at rest in Leopoldsburg the reply from the CWGC was;-

Quote:

Thank you for your e mail of 23 October. Please accept our apologies for the delay in reply: due to the high volume of enquiries received by our offices we currently have a backlog we are working to clear.
With regard to your query as to the ‘Unknown Serjeant of the Durham Light Infantry’ who is buried in Leopoldsburg War Cemetery in Belgium.
I have examined our Second World War records and can simply confirm that are limited records consistent throughout in recording these details. Our records are, as you may be aware, based on information provided to us after the war by the Service Authorities at the time. They would have provided us the above detail, based on the limited information that they had available to them at the time when the casualty’s remains were recovered from their original burial place in Gastuche Temporary Burial Ground at map reference:
M.R. 822424, Sheet 56
1/50,000, GSGS 4040
The map reference given above refers to the Second World War maps held at the Imperial War Museum. However, the maps are in the process of being digitised, and this is expected to take some considerable time. Should you require further information on this, you may wish to contact the following address:
Imperial War Museum
Department of Printed Books
Lambeth Road
Lambeth
London
SE1 6HZ
Tel: 020 7416 5342
Fax: 020 7416 5374
E-mail: books@iwm.org.uk
In closing, I am sorry that we have no further information other than the above, but I hope this is of some interest.

Yours sincerely,

Julie Somay (Mrs)
Enquiries Section
Commonwealth War Graves Commission
Head Office
2 Marlow Road
Maidenhead
Berkshire
SL6 7DX

Incidentally my enquiry related to the headstone being marked as a DLI SGT when no DLI SGTS were outstanding/missing only one L/Sgt matched but there was a 12 day discrepency in the dates of death and where this L/Sgt was last seen alive.
The report from Switzerland has one major flaw if it were the Swiss that notified the British why did the Red Cross write to RSM Goddard on behalf of the Corkhill family?
There are missing men files for each campaign Anthony Corkhill at no stage is reported missing its certain in black and white..DEAD...not KiA ..not Died of Wounds..not Died in Captivity...emphatically DEAD! Like you said how did they know and what is the Q80 reference on the accquital roll? Oh yes and apparently he isnt listed as drawing pay on the 15th May 1940 when only 12 members of HQ Company are listed?? More questions than answers I`m afraid.
Best
Jim
25-07-2012, 00:17
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Jim, my French friend told me that he had the distinct impression that M Faivre did not appreciate Tony asking a second historian for help. He explained at length that he had done his best but had not found anything, and if he couldn't find Tony's uncle, nobody could. As for copying the exhumation data and /or path report for us, no dice. You and I would decide to work together for a better prospect of results, but M Faivre obviously decided otherwise. The Mairie has nothing of interest, they told my friend, and referred him to M Faivre.

So I once again suggest pestering the CWGC to reveal their source of onformation on the death of Tony's uncle, and also coughing up 30 quid for a copy of his service record. At the very least we'll then know more than we do now.

John
25-07-2012, 20:55
teecee1941

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baconwallah

Jim, my French friend told me that he had the distinct impression that M Faivre did not appreciate Tony asking a second historian for help. He explained at length that he had done his best but had not found anything, and if he couldn't find Tony's uncle, nobody could. As for copying the exhumation data and /or path report for us, no dice. You and I would decide to work together for a better prospect of results, but M Faivre obviously decided otherwise. The Mairie has nothing of interest, they told my friend, and referred him to M Faivre.

So I once again suggest pestering the CWGC to reveal their source of onformation on the death of Tony's uncle, and also coughing up 30 quid for a copy of his service record. At the very least we'll then know more than we do now.

John

John,

Today I rang the DLI Museum and the CWGC in London to ask about the 27th or 29th date of death mystery. They were both as helpful as they could be but it seemed that a bit of guesswork was involved. The CWGC eventually said I would be better contacting the Army Service Records in Glasgow. I have tried and tried to contact them but either the page is unable to be found or it won't take any details. A week or two ago you sent me details of how to make contact and the form to use. I've searched for the last hour but can't find it. Could you send it again, please?

Thanks,

Tony
25-07-2012, 21:36
Baconwallah

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

Tony, the two forms you'll need are on the way. Check your email and you'll find them.

John
26-07-2012, 00:08
ivor43

Re: saint venant 1940-------farm boulet

 Jim.
Believe me I have not forgotten what we are doing. To a degree we are at an impasse. as I said I have given up, for now, my stand to the east.

You guys covered the western aspect of this action quite thoroughly but did you find any mention of an aid post. Might it have been as far away as Robecq? At the moment we don’t know. But as they used a school in Calonne is there not a possibility that they would have used a similar building elsewhere.

But of course, and any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Is there a possibility that the Aid post in Calonne was for the whole area, with a number of Field Ambulances operating in various parts of the action. Treating minor wounds on site and conveying the more serious casualties to Calonne before sending them to the rear?
There are good roads between Calonne, Robecq, St Venant and St Floris, and the distances are not great.

I am surprised that dental records were kept in 1940. but surely they would only be for those persons who had had dental work done, if Anthony, at 21,had a good set of teeth would there be any record. Or was everyone that enlisted recorded.

Ivor

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