Frank Williams WW2 Wrexham TA, RWF mix of units, Killyleagh, Possible Commando time

Good Morning.

A Question, if i may. I am not sure about procedure. If a man is Attested on 6/6/39, 4th Posted 6/6/39. Then Embodied on 2/9/39 8th where would he be between these dates, basic training or ?????
It seems to me that the period between 2/9/39 and his posting back to 4th on 22/9/40. is interesting,



ivor

I think I am going to owe some of you a coffee or a pint soon.

Hi All.
Chow linked this on to Facebook. While it does not mention Frank. it does go to prove that RWF personnel were involved with the independent Co's in Norway and were in Northern Island. interesting reading


ivor

A very interesting story.
I recently met a gentleman at the museum whose father, an officer in the Royal Welch Fusiliers during the Second World, hailed from Llandudno. He very kindly lent me a copy of his father’s personal war diary and it is apt as May 26th is th... See more
Photo: I recently met a gentleman at the museum whose father, an officer in the Royal Welch Fusiliers during the Second World, hailed from Llandudno. He very kindly lent me a copy of his father’s personal war diary and it is apt as May 26th is the anniversary of Lieutenant John Fitton’s capture by the German Army - after he and his section of men were ambushed in Norway in 1940. Lieutenant Fitton was a territorial in the 9th battalion RWF and, like so many others, received a telegram on the 1st of September 1939 instructing him to “Report immediately!” After a week in Caernarfon, Fitton was transferred to the 6th battalion and moved to Old Colwyn. The battalion left for Northern Ireland in October that year where they remained until May 1940. On May 10th 1940, Fitton and No. 2 Company departed Edinburgh aboard the SS Ulsterman, with HMS Cossack as their escort, and landed at Bodo, Norway three days later - where they were billeted in a fish factory. For the next fortnight the RWF carried out patrols, manned road blocks and gathered intelligence while constantly being watched by German reconnaissance aircraft. After coming under fire from the air and spending many nights in the freezing cold Fitton was ordered to report to company headquarters in Bodo. Cold and tired the men were running out of rations; their Norwegian interpreter had deserted them and shortly after 2pm they came under enemy fire. In the ensuing fire-fight a number of Lieutenant Fitton’s section was killed, Fitton himself was shot in the hand and briefly knocked unconscious when a round struck his helmet. Deciding that the only option was to surrender, the young officer ordered his men not to move but as he was getting to his knees, so did one of his soldiers, resulting in the death of Corporal Godsell. They remained in that position “cramped and nearly frozen to death” until the Germans took them prisoner at 4 o clock the following morning – more than 14 hours after the initial engagement. Second Lieutenant Tom Davies of Swansea, Corporal Ernest Godsell and Fusilier Richard Allen both of Welshpool, Fusilier George Black of Caernarfon and Fusilier Edward Roberts of Penycae were all killed. In addition, Lieutenant Fitton mentions that Fusilier Walher (possibly Walker?) was also killed that day but I am unable to find his name on the Commonwealth War Graves database. The following day Lieutenant Fitton and his few uninjured men buried their comrades in a grave close to where they fell; they made wooden crosses and simple pine wreaths and put the men’s steel helmets on the grave before holding a simple service led by the young Llandudno officer. After the war the men’s bodies were laid to rest in the churchyard at Saltdal. Photograph courtesy of the Fitton family.

I've been in close contact with another guy Ted Jones MM. Initially 1st Bn, He was in an independent company in early 1940, and conducted raids on the French Coast during Dunkirk. Before transferring to the 2nd Bn.

thank you chaps - I do appreciate the extra information and stories, it is all so interesting and so important these stories of people's experiences don't get lost over time.

out of curiosity has anyone come across cases of people being 'in hospital' or 'transferred' when they actually were off doing something else?

I was just reading this http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Spy-Work.../dp/1441518355

now I am not saying for one minute my grandfather did anything like this but it does make you wonder if there were some 'outings' that weren't officially recorded anywhere which could explain some rather blank areas and lack of training or anything recorded. My mum keeps saying she can't understand why he was in hospital other than the scabies because he was never ill after the war, the Dr didn't even know who he was when he had to have a medical before working overseas in the 1970s, never had any physical problems at all other than him saying he had flat feet and that was why he became a driver in the end.

hi all
A bit more info re the Independent Co's. Interestingly No2 Co was formed from the 53rd Welsh Dvn.

http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/...ent+Companies/

I suppose the problem may well be that initially the Origins of the Commando Co's was questionable, as i believe that their actions were, by some, seen as amounting to Terror Tactics, which resulted on many being executed.
This may have been a reason why the men of the early units retained their Regimental insignia. But this also may be a reason why they were not ''Taken off Strength'', but some explanation for their absence would have to be entered, so ''Hospital'', No explanation necessary.
An interesting Puzzle.


ivor

Ted Jones RWF MM one of our Branch members was a member of an Independent Commando for a period at the start of the war. He was detached from the 1st Battalion and sent with 12 other guys to the Southampton area for demolitions training. He conducted raids against german installations along the french coast in June 1940. Using RN Fast boats to make the journey. He basically described the operations as suicide missions!

No 2 Ind Company conducted the attempted reinforcement of Norway in April/May 1940. Eventually under the command of Hughie Stockwell RWF.

Hi again.
Have been looking into the background of the 'Norway Campaign' - Operation Avonmouth - with it's associated 'Sickle Force, and 'Maurice Force' both landing on 17th April. What is interesting is that their destination was originally supposed to be Finland to assist them with their war with the Soviet Union.

http://www.britishmilitaryhistory.co...y-Overview.pdf

this is quite lengthy but very informative.

http://www.britishmilitaryhistory.co...&nid=4&start=5

It is interesting that the Independent Co's 'Scissor force' was actually made up of small highly maneuverable units. the forerunners of the Commando units.


ivor

"out of curiosity has anyone come across cases of people being 'in hospital' or 'transferred' when they actually were off doing something else?"


Yes my father was oficialy in hospital etc when in actual fact he was making trips to occupied northern France (special ops was the official name)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ap1

and conducted raids on the French Coast during Dunkirk.

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During May/June 1940? Any idea on the unit he was with at the time?

He just calls it an "Independent Company"…He couldn't remember if it had a number. He did show me a book, a month or so ago, that had an account of one of the raids. Which went badly wrong, out of ten boats, only one made it to the coastline, I think the others had mechanical failure etc. On landing the germans shot them up, the boat that dropped them off, beat a hasty retreat. The guys had a ding dong with the enemy, then managed to move along the beach and hide in some bull rushes…Later their boat picked them up and took them back to Folkstone, there was rum in the boats, the guys were stripped down to their underpants, so they drank the rum….By the time the boat landed they were hammered. They staggered through Folkstone like that, wolf whistling the women, eventually about 20 MP's arrived to escort them to the barracks….I've actually seen that account in a book. I'm wondering if its a special service company or similar.

In fact Drew, just managed to locate a newspaper article from ten yrs ago. I'm trying to work out which RWF Bn he came from:

Attachment 3448

Right, it appears that 4th, 6th and 7th Bn's between them raised a platoon for No 2 Independent Company. They deployed to Norway.

Meanwhile, the 8th, 9th and 10th Bn's provided a platoon between them for No 9 Independent Company. These 3 x second line TA battalions were invoked in Coastal Duties in Sussex etc, which partially fits with Ted's story of being based on the south coast.

I think Ted took part in this raid : Operation Collar. The first ever commando raid!!!!…Bloody Hell, that is living history. Although it was conducted by 11 Independent Company, there is one crucial clue:

Attachment 3451



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operati...commando_raid)
http://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gif




I suspect Ted was with the group that landed at Stella Plage.

I have a shed load of (I think I have all of them) Independent Coy war diaries. Do you have a date?

I've just checked and there isn't a 9 Independent Coy war diary at Kew but there is a 9 Commando covering July to November 1940

I have 11 Company war diary - Will have a look later for you :)

This file looks interesting

WO 106/1740 Report on operation "COLLAR"; report on a small raid near Boulogne June 1940


Ps Do you have a copy of his MM citation?

http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...s?uri=D7365967

Hi Drew,

I've spoken to Ted today, he didn't really understand the significance of the raid of June 24 1940. His account pretty much matches the scenario of the guys who landed at Stella Plage. I've also located a guy on the Commando Forum, whose father was also RWF/9 Ind Coy and like Ted was sent to 11 Ind Coy for this raid.

Just out of curiosity, I'm assuming you know this chap and he is still alive and well. Have you approached him regarding applying for his service records? He can apply for a full copy for free and they will tell him who he was with and when he was with them.

I do have his Citation thanks Drew. The citation is actually different from what happened. In the citation it states the Japs opened fire on Ted. The reality was that Ted spotted the Jap barrels, poking out from the undergrowth, which his 2 x scouts had missed. He had the presence of mind to keep walking past the barrels, then stepped smartly into the undergrowth, so he was behind them and gave them a burst from his Thompson, with a 50rd drum mag, followed by a few grenades, he was injured in the leg. He then bugged out with his section….When he reported what happened, his Coy Comd ordered him to go back and occupy the position….as he returned, he caught the Japanese removing the bodies of their dead, so he repeated the exercise!!!

Here's the entry from the war diary. Obviously all the detail is in the file I mentioned above by the look of it. Ask him if his boss was Major Tod? It may ring a bell.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/843/sbb0k.jpg

I know him quite well, but I won't ask him for permission to do that.

Thanks for the diary. He remembered the name and actually said, I think he was the boss???…I then explained that he was probably in Teds boat. As was Lt Col Clarke, who dreamt up the idea and went along as an observer. Clarke was slightly wounded. He also remembered that the RAF supplied the 4 x speed boats. He didn't know what the other 3 objectives were…However that might have been good minimising of information spread in the even of capture at an early stage of the operation.

Found him....He was in 11 Independent Company

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/849/49b4.jpg

Excellent Drew,

I'll pass that to the Regiments archivists.

Drew, do you have the nominal roll for 2 Ind Coy, we are still looking to see if Frank Williams features?

Correction Drew, 9 Ind Coy. As Frank was an 8th Bn man.

Hi Folks.
I am not sure about Frank being in the 8th,he was originally posted to the 4th, as that would bring into question his being in Norway as, according to the list i linked earlier,from the Commando Veterans Association. No 2 Ind Co, having been formed from the 53rd Welsh Divn,i do not think that the 8thbtn was part of the53rd, together with No's 1,3,4 and5 Co's formed 'Scissorforce' which Joined ''Op Avonmouth'' in Norway
But the Commando link also says that an 11th co was formed for one specific operation, could that have been ''Operation Collar''


ivor

There isn't a 9 Independent Coy war diary for that period but there is a 9 Commando one which I'm assuming is one and the same and more than likely incorrectly names by Kew. Whilst I have a lot of these files I don't have a copy of the 9 Commando one.

Any others you want me to check?

Hi.
From this attached list it would seem that the Commando units 9 and 11 were formed sometime prior to 11th Oct 1940.

http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/...ent+Companies/


ivor

Scrub my last - I have found the 9 Independent Coy war diary for May and June in another series (WO 168 Norway). It's only two pages, not much detail, I'm sacking it for the night now so I'll post the pages tomorrow.

Cheers
Andy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dcdl12976

"out of curiosity has anyone come across cases of people being 'in hospital' or 'transferred' when they actually were off doing something else?"


Yes my father was oficialy in hospital etc when in actual fact he was making trips to occupied northern France (special ops was the official name)

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thank you - that would make so much more sense than what his records are saying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vori101

Hi Folks.
I am not sure about Frank being in the 8th,he was originally posted to the 4th, as that would bring into question his being in Norway as, according to the list i linked earlier,from the Commando Veterans Association. No 2 Ind Co, having been formed from the 53rd Welsh Divn,i do not think that the 8thbtn was part of the53rd, together with No's 1,3,4 and5 Co's formed 'Scissorforce' which Joined ''Op Avonmouth'' in Norway
But the Commando link also says that an 11th co was formed for one specific operation, could that have been ''Operation Collar''
ivor

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I think Frank was 8th Bn originally = 8th Unit. The crucial bit is between Jan and May 1940.

Attachment 3455http://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gifhttp://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gif

thank you everyone - some very interesting stuff there.

My mum says that he always claimed to have been one of the very first trained up (although obviously according to his records never even did basic training!) and the fact he says he did his training in Benbecula would back this up I think because from what I have read the earlier commando groups trained in much more random locations.

Mum commented yesterday just how many people he knew after the war and she said she was always amazed by this. An uneducated lad from North Wales suddenly ended up being invited to important events as a guest in London, mixing with a much wider range of people than he normally would have done, he said his war work had enabled him to get his jobs after the war and now it makes her wonder who he served with, he obviously met a lot of people.

Anyone know if there are any records from any battalions about boxing? He said he boxed for the army and he was asked to turn professional at the end of the war. He knew James Lowther, Earl of Lonsdale but we are not sure if he met him during the war somehow (possibly to do with boxing given the Lonsdale family history with boxing) or if it was just he happened to go and work for him after the war (which we believe he did as he had a Steel Erecting company in the North East and we know my Grandfather worked in that industry) but it is also possible it is a combination and that was why they moved to the North East and he got the job.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ap1

I think Frank was 8th Bn originally = 8th Unit. The crucial bit is between Jan and May 1940.

Attachment 3455http://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gifhttp://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gif

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I am glad you are managing to keep more track of this than I am - I have to keep rereading everything

will check my notes but I am pretty certain Narvik was the only place name he ever mentioned. He had an in depth knowledge of very remote parts of Scotland and the islands which he couldn't have got any other way than training or being there for some reason in the war.

out of curiosity on his service and casualty form in the miscellaneous entries (f) it says ASG 26. what does that mean? (it definitely looks like a G not a C) I can work out most of the other things
https://www.flickr.com/photos/einnaf/ the first photo.

It is very hard to read some bits sadly as they are incredibly pale.

So I have gone through the hospital dates (his records are all on the flickr link above except his driving records as they were completely logical and very simple to follow) and some other key bits of info.

6/6/39 4th btn RWF
2/9/39 8th btn
6/1/40 Lance Corporal
27/5/40 Acting Corporal
23/6/40 50th Holding Battalion
27/8/40 Corporal
21/9/40 4th RWF Down Patrick
24/5/41 reduced to ranks - reason being allowing his men to be improperly dressed,failing to post a sentry at the right time and failing to inspect arms of his guard before dismounting (although dismounting what we have no idea)
1-3/10//41 hospital - scabies
14/3/42 31st btn RWF Lichfield
20-22/4/42 hospital - Bangor
1/3/42 special payment
16-24/4/43 hospital - Abergele
3-12/5/43 hospital - Portmadoc
12-23/6/43 hospital - Portmadoc
17/12/43 - RASC

so if he did go to Norway it could have tied in with the May 1940 promotion to acting Corporal? hospital visits that are unaccounted for are summer 1942 and summer 1943.

(although obviously according to his records never even did basic training!)

This doesn't surprise me at all my dad did parachute training at RAF Cardington from Balloons however his record does not show this and according to official records the only Para training was done at Ringway Manchester.

Cheers

Dave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dcdl12976

(although obviously according to his records never even did basic training!)

This doesn't surprise me at all my dad did parachute training at RAF Cardington from Balloons however his record does not show this and according to official records the only Para training was done at Ringway Manchester.

Cheers

Dave

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oh thats good to know Dave. I feel much happier knowing that the fact his records are fairly lacking in some information doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Does anyone know what Med Cat C2 and Med Cat C2 (HS) means?

C2 men were only fit for Home Service.

John