In 1950 W Wanklyn(named on kitbag) appears in a staff photo at the Welsh Brigade Training Centre. By now he was a WO2 with a chest full of medals. Regi Records Vol VI
Attachment 3179Picture taken in 1934 before deploying to China
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In 1950 W Wanklyn(named on kitbag) appears in a staff photo at the Welsh Brigade Training Centre. By now he was a WO2 with a chest full of medals. Regi Records Vol VI
Attachment 3179Picture taken in 1934 before deploying to China
Hope you dont mind me asking what is a wo2
WO2 = Warrant Officer 2nd class, includes company sergeant major, Regimental quartermaster sgt, bandmaster.Quote:
Originally Posted by ernest
oh wow thanks
got death certificate :( not what i expected ap1 you can see it in my photos
Attachment 3209
Ok, I would now fill in the application for Williams Service Record. Enter his name as: William C Watson.
We don't really have any documentary proof of what his middle name actually is, indeed the army letter is 1939 only refers to him as Cpl William Watson. So hopefully this death certificate should be sufficient to get hold of Williams Service record. The age is also the same/similar.
I don't have any other avenues to suggest, its a gamble, but other than waiting for another 12yrs until the 116 year cut off point passes, theres not much else you can do!!!http://www.zoominto.com/zoomapi/ZoomButt.gif
hi all
odd cause of death.
exhaustion
and
looked up Status Epilepticus :-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_epilepticus
possibly first as a result of second, strange. and also he was living in a Hostel and not working, possibly due to his condition.
ivor
Nothing odd about it, Ivor. An untreated status epilepticus will kill you, even today, and without going into the physiological and biochemical details the cause of death can be simply described as 'exhaustion'.
John
do you think this watson might be my grandad,if he had epilepsy ,he couldnt have been in a war ?
Who knows Ernest…..Its totally impossible to say at the moment because we don't know anything about his life other than he lived in Swansea after he left the army. I would focus on the main aim….Which is obtaining his service record. If this doesn't work i'm not really sure what your next step should be.
Hi All.
If you look at the Causes in the link i attached, and i hope John can confirm this, Status Epilepticus, does not appear to be Epilepsy. there are a number of possible causes listed. He certainly, i think, could have developed this at any time after the war.
As he lived in a Hostel when he died, do you know anything about his lifestyle after the war, as some of the causes may appear to be connected to lifestyle.
ivor
The one and only cause is epilepsy, either directly (what we call 'idiopathic') or as a result of brain damage, poisoning, bad or insufficient medication, good medication made less effective by other medication, you name it. Even if the status is caused by extreme fatigue, the underlying cause will be idiopathic epilepsy which suddenly becomes [more] active because the defence mechanisms are overworked.Quote:
Originally Posted by vori101
And believe me, it can kill. I've seen it.
John
i believe you my son has severe epilepsy,and nearly lost him 3 times,its been only this last 3 years his more controled
Hi Ernest
Storms on 14th put our phone and Broadband out and we are still not reconnected. I am using afriends laptop
Do get the Service Record-take the gamble.
I believe that this man was the one born at Pontypridd.There was another born at nearby Neath who we haven't managed to research fully.There were several families of Watson there in the 1911 census.2 lived next to each other in 6 and 7 Canal Lane.One is entered as Jack Jones -head-and then altered to to Watson.The Neath William C Watsons mother was a Jones. There was also Cyril born 1914 died 1915 and launcelot R born 1916.I couldn't find anything else about him but he might have used his 2nd name!!They both had amother formerly Jones[from FreeBMD]
The epilipsy-the cause of death and your sons condition might just be a big coinhcidence.
Good luck
Sue
Hi again,
It occurs to me that Ernest won't be supplied with the Service Record if William Charles is the wrong man.
Richard Ward quoted the W Christopher Watson who seemed to fit in better.Should Ernest next apply for the Birth Cert of W C born 1911 in Neath and use that in his application?
Perhaps more research shoul;d be done on the Neath man using FreeBMD and possibly GenesReunited-and any other website that might help.
Before my storm problems I did use GenesR and found a number of people with a William watson in their Trees and also a Violet watson born 1909.She isn't part of any family that I had looked at on 1911 census.It sometimes helps to investigate other siblings/possible siblings.
Also perhaps someone can find the Rootsweb.com Mailing List for Neath/Swansea area.Other subscribers on that can be very helpful-sub is free but you can first Browse or Search the Archives and might find something of use. I tried British Newspapers but not much Wales coverage yet.Again a local researcher might be able to help at a local library.There might be a report on this mans death in 1950.The Pontypridd/Aberdare/Mountain Ash family had a lot of children. There are also rootsweb Message Boards but I find them rather USA orientated.
Neath is close to Swansea which is why i would go with this research first.
Wish that I could help more on this but not able to at the moment until BT pull their finger out!!
Sue
when i applied for the death certificate i put down pontypridd..yes agree with you that epilepsy is just a coincidence as my sons is not genetic,so what shall i do as i havent send for papers of w charles yet as im not sure of that one
Our line will be down for another week!! You just need to find out more about the Neath man and perhaps apply for his birth cert which you can also use for your Service Records application if it seems to be right.A birth cert might give his 2nd name as the Pontypridd death cert did.
Try www.freebmd.org for a Marriage or death .Perhaps look for Christopher Watson.Age is the important factor against adeath.
Or www.rootsweb.org and then Mailing Lists and find a Glamorgan site.There maybe more than one.Then Search the Archives for Watson.Then perhaps sub and to ask questions is free
Perhaps someone on Ancestry or FMP or GR can find out more Deaths go to a more recent date than BMD does
The Violet and William watson that I found on GR--GenesReunited-were the ones from West Bromwich, so probably not of interest.
Good luck
Sue
Hi Ernest,
I have managed a session on a friends computer and tried to research the Neath man. He possibly had 2 brothers --Cyril born 1914/died 1915 and Lancelot Ronald Watson born at Neath 1916 Sep quarter.He seems to have died at Ogwr[?] Mid Glamorgan in 1985 Sep q.Parents Watson and mother nee Jones.
I thought that I had found a marriage for him in Newport, Monmouthshire in 1946 and there is another Lancelot R who married in Leeds in 1937 but I am not convinced that either fit in.Sadly no one has any of the known family in their Tree on GenesReunited.The newspapers on line don't come up with anything either.There were rather a lot of Lancelot Watsons around to my surprise. I had hoped to find family who could give us some information.
Early on in this Thread Richard Ward is quoted as saying that William Christopher Watson was in the 2nd Batt from 1930 to 1941.The letter from Lucknow says he left in March 1938 and presumably stayed on the strength for possible callup. Did your grandmother and family know that his 2nd name was Christopher or was he just known as William?
My suggestion is that you apply for the Birth Certificate of William C Watson born at Neath in 1911 at a cost of approx £10.Hopefully you will have more info on that and feel that this is the right person..
I believe that you can use a birth certificate to apply for the Service Records.
I hope that this can be of some help.
Has anyone else let you know anything about any of the other men named on your photos? Perhaps we could have found out something through the family of one of them.
Sue
Early on in this Thread
Oh Dear! I have just noticed that I made a typo on Feb 23 when I encouraged you to try for the Service Record
I should have said that I Didn't think that the Pontypridd man was the right one!! You might feel differently.
Now that your thread is on the General Listing of Military Genealogy I get the feeling that we have lost many of the followers !
I have tried looking at the Glamorgan List on www.rootsweb.com but found nothing to help you. Perhaps it is time to sub and ask some questions.Let me know if you are able to do this.
Also give me any other info that might be helpful
best wishes
Sue
Hi Ernest
I had a discovery last night when I found a William WATSON aged 21 on board a japanese boat going to Gibraltar.Departed London 13 July/1934. He was with 8 other 'soldiers' including John Purcell aged 29. The others aged mainly 22.
If this age is correct then we need to look for a different William-born 1912. His address is given as 409 Penbregethin Road, Swansea.
I will post further details later. This was on Outgoing Passengers on Ancestry.
Sue
is there any pics
Aboard ship bound for Japan and calling at Gibraltar. Ship departed London on 13 July 1934
Ship Hakazaki Morn or Moru.Ship might be Hakogaki. Nippon Yusen Line based on Kaisha
Outgoing passengers include 'Soldiers'
WEAVER Thomas 22 124 Kings Mill Rd Wrexham
DAWSON Wilfred 22 of Cannock, Staffs
WATSON William 21 409 Penbregethin Rd,Swansea
GRIFFITHS Robert 24 of Caernarvon
PURCELL John 29 of Whitchurch,Salop [Shropshire]
WILLIAMS Richard 22 of Mostyn
SHAKESAFF[?] Benjamin 24 of Newport
Hope this helps someone.
I can look for fuller addresses for those not given here on request! I will see if I can find others going to Gibraltar on other ships.
I didn't find William WATSON returning to UK when he left China/Hong Kong--or India.
Sue
Might it be worth starting a thread just for these names?
Sorry--I missed off
MEHAGAN --22 of Dowlais,Glamorgan
Sue
Hi.
I think the ship was most probably the SS Hakozaki Maru of the Japanese NYK Line. she was built in 1922 some 10,415 tons and was torpedoed in 1945 by the U.S.Submarine U.S.S. Balao. i can not find a record of the July 34 voyage, only timetable images for 1930/31 and 35.
http://www.timetableimages.com/maritime/images/nyk.htm
but i will keep looking
ivor
The ships tonnage is entered as 7156 and the Master was Y WANTABE
Further up the page-apart from the 8 soldiers-was RAVEN Frederick 36 of Eat St ,Coggershall,Essex. Maybe not Welch Fuseliers.
On other ships I have found several groups of soldiers bound for Gib. All entered as c/o Records Office,Lichfield apart from CRAILSHAM Harry aged 47 Major of 35 Sloane st, London SW.in 1931
From Free BMD the most likely candidate now for Ernest's grandfather is William WATSON born Swansea Dec q 1912 Mother formerly ENGLAND but there are also others born in Bedwelty, Ruthin andNeath in years 1912/13.
But in Mar 1913 there is William Watson born in Neath--mother formerly KENT .And in Plymouth William C K Watson --mother KENT. Maybe a typo or just possibly a Service or Mariners family moving around and registering him in both places?
Sue
Hi.
The Hakozaki Maru is shown on 2 shipping lists as 10,413 tonnes. However all ships have 2 published Weights A Net Tonnage and a Deadweight Tonnage. Deadweight Tonnage is the Maximum weight that a ship can safely carry and net register tonnage, without cargo.
so a vessel could have a DWT of 10,413 but a Net Tonnage of 7156 which would give it a load capacity of 3,250ish Tonnes. so both sets of figures could be right.
Now.
Captain Y Wantabe. The following link is interesting.
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/...O/IJO-Bio.html
It Contains the Name.
''WATANABE, Yasuji, Captain, I.J.N. Nav. No. 13
WATANABE was an officer of 25 years experience in the regular Navy. He specialized in gunnery and served as Gunnery Officer on several staffs including that of Admiral YAMAMOTO, CinC Combined Fleet, 1940-1943. During the PEARL HARBOR attack and the Battle of MIDWAY, he was with Admiral YAMAMOTO. Subsequent to these battles he also served as Landing Force Officer on the Combined Fleet Staff.
He had an excellent service reputation among other Japanese Naval Officers. During the interrogations he was most helpful in providing information and operation plans of the Combined Fleet. Outside sources have substantiated this information. He spoke very good English and all interrogations were conducted in that language.
Instructor, Gunnery College YOKOSUKA 1937-1938
Staff, 7th Cruiser Squadron 1938-1939
Staff, Second Fleet 1939-1940
Staff Gunnery Officer, Combined Fleet 1940-1943
Member of Council, Military Affairs, Navy Department 1943-1945
Staff, Supreme Headquarters TOKYO 1945''
Very similar.
I am not sure if a Japanese Navy Capt would have had a NYK ship i will have to check.
Ivor
hi.
photo of.
Hakozaki Maru
http://www.combinedfleet.com/Hakozaki_t.htm
ivor
It is WATANABE--Another of my typos!!
Was he, amongst others, sent off on reconnaisance journeys to spy out harbours, fortifications etc??!!
I have found in Outgoing Passengers
William Watson 39 Police Officer going to Hong Kong 13/Nov/1953 on P&O ship 'Carthage'
Doris Jane 43 wife
Diane Wakefield Watson 2 home 9 Fitzroy St, Cathay
with William having been in HK and China pre War this would be a suitable job.
Also, in the photo of William with one other man, head and shoulders, I had wondered before whether he had on Mess Dress or Number 1 Dress or Policeman Uniform.
Has anyone any suggestions?
Sue
hi.
Confirming sailings for Hakozaki Maru 1934
23 February 1934 London Japan
12 July 1934 London Japan
30 November 1934 London Japan
from '' find my past''
ivor
Hi.
Susanjane. No i do not think Captain Watanabe was spying out anything.
I have looked up the Japanese Combined Fleet, and i think it likely, with the tension between Japan and China from 1933 caused by what is known as the Manchurian Incident, that the SS Hakozaki and other ships were requisitioned by the Japanese Navy. It is recorded that the Hakozaki became a Troop Ship at the outbreak of hostilities. So it is my belief that whilst still working as a Passenger/Cargo liner it was part of the JIN reserves with a Naval Captain.
Possibly.
ivor
I imagine that they did make notes on the way though! 3 trips to and from London in one year would reveal quite a lot of info
On looking at the 2 man photo I see that William Watson is in Service Dress rather than Police Uniform and the picture done in a studio in HK or China.
I now think that William might have been the first child of William WATSON aged 27 and Martha J ENGLAND 25 who married in early 1911 and are on the Census at 8 Percy St, Gorse Rd Swansea.
They had 7 children between Dec quarter 1912 and 1928.
A William WATSON married Doris Kinsey in Swansea in Mar q 1940 but I have only found 1 birth so far--in 1946
I am unable to look up any maps as BT still haven't done the work and I have limited access to webs.
I rather hope that someone can locate this address and The one on the Ships manifesto
Sue
I had another look at Passenger info on Ancestry and found William Watson 21 coming back from Gib with several other soldiers in May 1934.Address given is 409 Pentregethin Rd Swansea--slight change in spelling
He returned again in July 1934-as I had previously found- after leave and training?About 6 weeks.
also Richard Williams 22 of Mostyn
Geoge TONG 22 of Rhyl
James MEHAGAN 22 of Dowlais
Robert Griffiths 24 of Carnarvan
Wilfred DAWREN 22 of 217 New Building Staffs
Charles DUSKERS 24 of Arsenal
These last 2 I found 2nd and 3rd letters in their names difficult to read -rather faint typing and pencil marks on the page
I cannot find William Watson on his first outward journey to Gib pre 1934 nor his return from HK or China-or India in 1938.
Sue
PS --they were again travelling on Nippon Yusan line-ship SUVA MARU--I think
Sue
Good Morning.
Probably the SS Suwa Maru She was on that route for several years and used to call in Gib.
ivor
Dear All
I would be grateful for your help in finding the Death of William Watson born in Dec q 1912 in Swansea. At the moment we are guessing that he is the William Watson that we are trying to find! I found him on Incoming Passengers from Gibraltar in May 1934 aged 21 and also on Outgoing Passengers in July 1934 back to Gib. Home for about 6 weeks. A soldier .
His address in UK was given as 409 Pentregethin Road, Swansea. Can anyone tell me whether that was a house then or maybe a lodging house or similar. None of the other soldiers travelling with him gave that address.
He was in Swansea early in WW2 but then contact was lost. There is no obvious death for him in Wales up to 2006 when the Ancestry Death Register for England and Wales ends. He was not known to have a second name but even so there are many William Watson deaths to investigate. He would now be approaching 102 if still alive. He was a Corporal in the Royal Welch Guards.
He probably served again during WW2 but is not on CWGC records. We feel that he might well have emigrated or served abroad somewhere and might have married or died there. Had a family whose records might come up.
To obtain his Service Records the family have to have a Death Certificate.
I do not at present accessing Ancestry Worldwide Records or Find My Past or Family Research/IGI records . If anyone has easy access to these then I would be very grateful for any time and results that you can give.
Nil results would be useful in an elimination process!By private message if you would prefer,
Thank you
Sue
Quote:
Originally Posted by susanjane
Just to save anyone else replicating searches. In the 1911 Census , Attachment 3290
a collier and his wife were living at the address 409 Pentregethin, Swansea:
Thank you ap1.It is almost certainly a house .
Someone on www.GLAMORGAN@rootsweb.com has found the Death of a William Watson aged 42 in Swansea Dec q 1954 which fits in with the birth in Dec q 1912.It is on Ancestry and www.freebmd.org.uk
I'm not sure how I missed that one!!
I hope that Ernest can get the certificate and that it will be the right man and also answer some questions.
Brinley J Watson , Williams probable brother, died 10 years later at the same age. I haven't managed to positively work out marriages and deaths of others in the family so don't know what happened to them.
I have now looked on British Newspapers hoping for a family announcement or a mention of his death. If anyone can access any Glamorgan newspapers perhaps they could have search.From September 1954 and into 1955 I would think
Sue
hi everyone,still no luck,not even on the forces war records,which i have stopped paying for know,it gets annoying for me to keep seeing watsons that dont much,anything new here
Hi All.
Right, some of what i am going to write is probably known to you.But in order to make sense of this i will have to explain the lot.
First, i do not use Ancestry, too expensive, i use Family Search which is a Free search provided by the Mormon Church.
O.K. William C Watson,born 1912, as AP1 Says. his mothers Maiden Name is shown as England. Brindley J Watson, born 1923, also has mothers Maiden name of England. so very probable Brothers. Death of William C is recorded as Sept Q 1954 as stated. age 42.
Brinley J Death recorded Sept Q 1964 age 42.
Right Marriages. There is a record for William C of a Marriage to a Doris M Williams in the Jun Q of 1934.Now this ties in quite nicely with your record,susanjane, of the passenger record from Gib in May 34 with return in July 34.Possibly returned for his Wedding.
There is also a Marriage record for a Brinley Watson in the Sept q 1948. when he Married a Ursula J M Gatz.
If you are having difficulty obtaining Certificates then Both Family Search and FreeBMD both record the Volume,Page and Line for the record. i have copied them so if you would like i can provide them save you searching.
ivor